They aren't going to have enough of a ministry left for the kids to enjoy people waiting on them hand and foot, cleaning their houses, moving their tons of cr@p for them and paying for them to do nothing.
Good point Belle- reminds me of what ole loy said once about da lard being able to "deliver" with many or few. The real translation of that was the few left would have to exhibit the strength of Samson..
"Whadya mean you can't move it? Its just a stinkin little piano.. spiritually weak or something?"
The first ROA that I went to was in 1989. I remember it being "ify" about TWI having it because of all the people who had left that year... There was like 1,800 there that year - no lines for anything, really. I believe the biggest ROA was about 2,800 - that would have been the last one.
Someone on another thread posted that they figured the turnout for the ROAs was half of the members, which sounds like a good barometer for a close estimate on the total number of members.
TWI is far too "dirty" to ever get those numbers again - but they dismiss the low head-count as being like the children of Isreal, as all that were in Egypt had to die off in the wilderness before they could go into the Promised Land... TWI thinks they're in the Promised Land... I say, someone needed to stop to ask for directions a long time ago because they are soooo lost! (Boy, could they use OnStar!)
Any ROA I went to from 1983 to 1987 was terrible--heat, humidity, mosquitoes, nasty water, trying to find a seat for the nightly teaching, waiting forever in line to eat or shower. I heard rumors of about 20,000 in attendance.
There were over 2000 people that went wow in 79 when I did...there were tens of thousands of folks in attendance at the roa`s during those years.
Ditto the heat mosquitoes and bad water....there was one year where many many people were desperatly sickened by the water....I thought I was going to die.....stuck in a van unable to crawl to the nearest source for water or food....once a day a twiggy would come by with a yogurt or small drink....it is the first time I was ever afraid for my life....I knew that I didn`t have any family there to give a damn whether I lived or died......
There were over 2000 people that went wow in 79 when I did...there were tens of thousands of folks in attendance at the roa`s during those years.
Ditto the heat mosquitoes and bad water....there was one year where many many people were desperatly sickened by the water....I thought I was going to die.....stuck in a van unable to crawl to the nearest source for water or food....once a day a twiggy would come by with a yogurt or small drink....it is the first time I was ever afraid for my life....I knew that I didn`t have any family there to give a damn whether I lived or died......
I certainly hope I have my memory correct but I could swear that was the firgure-but then again I wasn't taking notes-and yep the bugs bad water and all-I remember being more than vain ( I was young) and getting up at 4 am to get near the shower an hour or so later! The big shower tents? Jeez Louise what a scene! Everyone trying to style their big 80's hair blow dryers on full steam ahead...now I laugh. I was so in shock when I found greasespot, because I just shook my head in amazement- and to think that their numbers are so low-it just speaks of the whole deal doesn't it? I mean "by their friut you will know them and all etc." I haven't qouted a scripture for a decade and out of practice am I. I mean our twig & bc's not to mention limb would have been beside themselves at the "lack of classes-witnessing-bringing people to the truth" I suppose all the wages we all sent in will support them a while yet-oh how very sad and sordid.
Maybe the stories we tell could tip those yet in to the real amazing flood of people who left-How could anything worthwhile "mark & avoid" fellow believers? (feeling chatty again-pardon the lack of all correct punctuation!)
at least one the ROAs during the first half of the 80s. I have little reason to doubt that figure, given the big crowds and the long lines, as some have already mentioned. But after 87, with leaders being fired and them going public, it was all downhill from there.
Back to what I was told by a former Trunk Leader and 1st Corps guy...
He couldn't recall if it was the ROA 1983 or 1984 - but the number he gave me was between 22 and 24 thousand at the ROA. More people came in on the weekend and some left after a few days, so they could never get a totally accurate count of who was actually "on grounds". I was at both of them, but if I had to wager, I'd bet it was 1984.
WOW numbers were huge - remember 4000 for the 40th? What a push that was. I recall that lots of Corps got WOW as their assignment that year to reach the goal.
Corps numbers were also way up there. Was anyone in the 13th or 15th?? I heard that it was so overcroweded that there were married couples sharing rooms in some of the dorms! Never knew whether or not that was true. Double bunk beds... sex schedules... eek!
But think about it. Even if there were as many as 50,000 active abs-ing participants, it's only enough to fill an average baseball stadium. Not that many people. And those 50,000 were never in the same place at the same time. If it were the ROA, the baseball stadium would have only been half full (or half empty depending on your point of view!). More folks than that show up for a Devil Rays game here in Tampa - and they stink!
4,000 WOWs in one year?? That's beyond my imagination!! Makes todays numbers look pretty pathetic, doesn't it? I think the first year I even knew anything about the ROA was the year craig cancelled it. Was that the same year as the Living Sanctified "class"?
Andreatheflorist, chat away! That's why we're here and I love hearing all this stuff about the way it used to be. I can just imagine the tents and girls primping together.....LOL! Not sorry I missed those days though.
Rascal, that's downright awful! I'm so sorry you had to experience that. :(-->
Man! They must do some really good spinning to sell the precious remnant reason for the small numbers. BUT, being on TWI payroll like the Moneyhands, how can you watch the shrinking numbers and dollars and NOT be worried about your standard of living??
The first ROA that I went to was in 1989. I remember it being "ify" about TWI having it because of all the people who had left that year... There was like 1,800 there that year - no lines for anything, really.
That was the God's honest truth.
Comparing ROA 1988 to ROA 1989 was how I came up with my original estimate for
4/5 of the members leaving- 4/5 of the attendance for the previous year was
missing-and more (like me) were missing right after that.
You missed all the small crowds everywhere.
Me, I went to see personally if all the second-hand reports were true.
(They understated things, if anything.) I also went to raid the bookstore
one last time, before I discovered that Christians have decent bookstores, too.
Heck, Barnes & Noble carries a decent selection.
The transparent appeals to authority, the absence of spontaneity among the
attendees, the corps listening in on all conversations (one proving my point-
he interrupted one where, earlier, I had said this sort of thing happened),
the physical threats for asking questions, donna calling lcm
"our spiritual leader" and "our spiritual head" from the main stage,
lcm unable to tell that the distinction between "sonship RIGHT" and
"sonship OBLIGATION" was entirely in twi's eyes and neither phrase was in
Scripture, the transparent attempts to tug heartstrings, the mainstage
appearances of every member of the wierwille family who could be convinced to
attend, the prostituting of mrs w onstage to say that people who REALLY
love her could only be people who would stand with her in the ministry....
20,000+ for the VP memorial ROA was probably accurate. I was there; it was crowded.
As I recall, there never were as many as 4000 WOWs in a year (even with multiple "waves"), although there was supposed to be some "spiritual significance" for that number. There may have been more than 3000 WOWs at one time, however.
George, I went out wow that memorial roa it was a sad dreary year...with vpw gone and no one supposed to talk about it....there was none of the exhileration and excitement of the former wow training and preperations...just a feeling of resigned determination to get a nasty job done...., as returning wows, we arrived at the roa after pop had been read....man talk about a depressing time of turmoil.....there was not any of the pride or feeling of accomplishment of former wow years....just a weary unutterable thankfullness that the nightmare was about to end.........it was a huge let down.....our lc having just become one of the newest members of the bot.....was unable to see us or walk into the big top with the dispirited wows that had managed to survive that year in his state.....(most lc`s managed to be on hand to congratulate and pin their wows)
I only was able to attend one more after that due to being very pregnant for the remainder of my years in twi.....even with all of the troubles, I dearly loved roa, even after 15 years, I have dreams of showing up and searching for old friends, hoping that things have changed.
George St. George is right about there once being over 3,000 WOWs.
I assisted the WOW Coordinator in the Trunk Office during my first year in-residence, last block, and during my interim year at HQ, which was May 1982 through August 1983. I put the records of the WOWs for that year on a spreadsheet, and the number that I recall during that year was 3,200 ... I remember being surprised because the goal had been "Four Thousand [WOWs] for the Fortieth [Anniversary, which was in 1982]." That was the largest amount of folks ever to go out WOW.
I attended ROA '80-'87. The numbers people recount here seem to agree with my memories. I went out WOW in '82-'83, so I was one of the 3,200 or so. I remember a lot being made of "4000 for the 40th" until the actual number became apparent, then the phrase "4000 for the 40th" disappeared... as if it had never been.
To the best of my understanding there were about 100,000 people who had taken PFAL, but there were never more than about 30,000 actually "standing" at any one time. I guess ROA turn out was always a pretty good indicator of the level of interest.
HI folks-Ok exhausted after the Mother of all holidays for me-(lots of flowers mother's day)
Rascal, you Rascal- Thanks for the kind words there-and yep- you are absolutly correct-(I went wow the year before you-) After pop was read and leaked to some of us reg believers (lockbox-a leaking sieve)I have not seen a more dispirted group of humans than at the roa. I miss some things-people-wow burgers. Long shower lines-misguided leadership? don't miss that! PS Belle-think you're spiffy too!
Just from my research, I think '85 was their peak year of 40000! Like when I went to ROA, not everybody attends. A site I posted elsewhere claims that over 100000 members have been involved with TWI in it's span.
Signals -- I missed ROA 84, but I sure did make the effort to be there at ROA 85, since it was the *memorial* for docvic (I still liked the guy at that time).
The numbers for twi were fast declining even then, and then when the POP hit a year or so later, the exodus out of New Knoxville might have easily been compared to the Isrealites leaving Egypt!
Again -- I don't know the number of those in attendance, or the membership numbers overall -- but whatever they were -- they were going down fast.
Just from my research, I think '85 was their peak year of 40000! Like when I went to ROA, not everybody attends. A site I posted elsewhere claims that over 100000 members have been involved with TWI in it's span.
About 100,000 people have signed up for pfal.
If you think back, that's how many people paid their money and gave their names,
not how many made it to Session 1.
That's also not how many people made it to Session 12,
and not how many stuck around AFTER.
Just counting my first pfal, 8 people were signed up as new students,
including me.
7 of us showed up for Session 1.
3 of us completed Session 12.
(Me and 2 people in twi families.)
So, saying there were 100,000 people or more IN twi is more than an exaggeration.
The site doesn't claim how many took the clas, but how many people may have been effected by TWI over it's lifespan. Some people came to twigs and never took the class. Remember that the ministry began when Weirwille claims God talked to him. Here's the site(I'm sure you know it):Inside TWI
Recommended Posts
Ham
Good point Belle- reminds me of what ole loy said once about da lard being able to "deliver" with many or few. The real translation of that was the few left would have to exhibit the strength of Samson..
"Whadya mean you can't move it? Its just a stinkin little piano.. spiritually weak or something?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Why in the WORLD did you think the numbers would be HIGHER in the 90's?
Depending on who you ask,
1979 was probably the largest regular ROA,
and 1985 was the last big get-together.
Remember-it was all about vpw up top, not the Bible and God.
It wasn't long after vpw was buried that things started to come apart.
Depending on who you ask, it was due to one of two things.
A) Once vpw died, "that whole network of believing" generated by vpw's brain
was gone, and the Devil planted doubts in people's heads
or
B) the illusion of infallibility was gone, and JS' study on Adultery was
censured for daring to say the Bible disapproved of adultery,
and some of the top types realized that an incompetent was sitting
on the throne. Further, the act of trying to suppress a Biblical teaching
showed the writing on the wall to more than a few people.
In 1987, a handful of top guys left over what was happening.
Around that time, the POP letter came out, and there was some confusion and
milling about.
In 1989, lcm fired all leadership who didn't cower in a prostrate manner and
lick his boots. Immediately after that, he called for an oath of loyalty
among the rank and file as he had called for one among the leadership.
In response to those 2 acts, 4 out of every 5 members walked.
(That was my estimate then, and statistics later bore that out.)
AFTER that, more people left in 1990, people who wrapped up business rather than
leaving in 1989.
Since then, no year has ended with more members than it started,
nor as MANY as it had when it started.
That's called "negative population growth",
and it's said twi has been hemorrhaging members.
For several years, they DID concern themselves with numbers, which is why
they'd attempted to run classes with a very aggressive approach.
That didn't work.
"People don't care what you know until they know that you care."
To twi, new people weren't sought because they were to be loved with the love
of God-they were sought because they were a source of revenue when they paid
for the class,
and a source of CONTINUED revenue if they paid 15-20% or more of their income
as "leadership" shook them down for "God's protection money" to keep them from
being a "greasespot by midnight."
So, all the cold machines approached units with the intention of getting the
tuition for a class or 20% or more, and the response was that the people who
were approached either ran, gave them a fake name, or slipped out as soon as it
was obvious it was all mechanical and about the money.
Now,
twi can only mimic love and mercy, ape the form of love but lack the function.
Even if they TRIED to love and tell the truth,
NOBODY THERE KNOWS HOW.
=====
It's like that scene in "Crazy People",
when the advertisers realize that being truthful about a product was working
for some ads,
then they held a closed meeting, trying to come up with something truthful
to place in ads in their own campaigns.
They were so practiced at lying, and so unfamiliar with telling the truth,
that they were unable to come up with a single truth for their ads.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
The first ROA that I went to was in 1989. I remember it being "ify" about TWI having it because of all the people who had left that year... There was like 1,800 there that year - no lines for anything, really. I believe the biggest ROA was about 2,800 - that would have been the last one.
Someone on another thread posted that they figured the turnout for the ROAs was half of the members, which sounds like a good barometer for a close estimate on the total number of members.
TWI is far too "dirty" to ever get those numbers again - but they dismiss the low head-count as being like the children of Isreal, as all that were in Egypt had to die off in the wilderness before they could go into the Promised Land... TWI thinks they're in the Promised Land... I say, someone needed to stop to ask for directions a long time ago because they are soooo lost! (Boy, could they use OnStar!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Any ROA I went to from 1983 to 1987 was terrible--heat, humidity, mosquitoes, nasty water, trying to find a seat for the nightly teaching, waiting forever in line to eat or shower. I heard rumors of about 20,000 in attendance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
There were over 2000 people that went wow in 79 when I did...there were tens of thousands of folks in attendance at the roa`s during those years.
Ditto the heat mosquitoes and bad water....there was one year where many many people were desperatly sickened by the water....I thought I was going to die.....stuck in a van unable to crawl to the nearest source for water or food....once a day a twiggy would come by with a yogurt or small drink....it is the first time I was ever afraid for my life....I knew that I didn`t have any family there to give a damn whether I lived or died......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
gc
Oh man! That's sad!
:(-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
andreatheflorist
I certainly hope I have my memory correct but I could swear that was the firgure-but then again I wasn't taking notes-and yep the bugs bad water and all-I remember being more than vain ( I was young) and getting up at 4 am to get near the shower an hour or so later! The big shower tents? Jeez Louise what a scene! Everyone trying to style their big 80's hair blow dryers on full steam ahead...now I laugh. I was so in shock when I found greasespot, because I just shook my head in amazement- and to think that their numbers are so low-it just speaks of the whole deal doesn't it? I mean "by their friut you will know them and all etc." I haven't qouted a scripture for a decade and out of practice am I. I mean our twig & bc's not to mention limb would have been beside themselves at the "lack of classes-witnessing-bringing people to the truth" I suppose all the wages we all sent in will support them a while yet-oh how very sad and sordid.
Maybe the stories we tell could tip those yet in to the real amazing flood of people who left-How could anything worthwhile "mark & avoid" fellow believers? (feeling chatty again-pardon the lack of all correct punctuation!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
I recall hearing the "20,000" figure for
at least one the ROAs during the first half of the 80s. I have little reason to doubt that figure, given the big crowds and the long lines, as some have already mentioned. But after 87, with leaders being fired and them going public, it was all downhill from there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
In '81 we had near 4000 go wow.
More then what their real numbers combined are today.
Should be a wake up to some, though some choose to sleep thru it all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Hope R.
Back to what I was told by a former Trunk Leader and 1st Corps guy...
He couldn't recall if it was the ROA 1983 or 1984 - but the number he gave me was between 22 and 24 thousand at the ROA. More people came in on the weekend and some left after a few days, so they could never get a totally accurate count of who was actually "on grounds". I was at both of them, but if I had to wager, I'd bet it was 1984.
WOW numbers were huge - remember 4000 for the 40th? What a push that was. I recall that lots of Corps got WOW as their assignment that year to reach the goal.
Corps numbers were also way up there. Was anyone in the 13th or 15th?? I heard that it was so overcroweded that there were married couples sharing rooms in some of the dorms! Never knew whether or not that was true. Double bunk beds... sex schedules... eek!
But think about it. Even if there were as many as 50,000 active abs-ing participants, it's only enough to fill an average baseball stadium. Not that many people. And those 50,000 were never in the same place at the same time. If it were the ROA, the baseball stadium would have only been half full (or half empty depending on your point of view!). More folks than that show up for a Devil Rays game here in Tampa - and they stink!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
4,000 WOWs in one year??
That's beyond my imagination!! Makes todays numbers look pretty pathetic, doesn't it? I think the first year I even knew anything about the ROA was the year craig cancelled it. Was that the same year as the Living Sanctified "class"?
Andreatheflorist, chat away! That's why we're here and I love hearing all this stuff about the way it used to be. I can just imagine the tents and girls primping together.....LOL! Not sorry I missed those days though.
Rascal, that's downright awful! I'm so sorry you had to experience that.
:(-->
Man! They must do some really good spinning to sell the precious remnant reason for the small numbers. BUT, being on TWI payroll like the Moneyhands, how can you watch the shrinking numbers and dollars and NOT be worried about your standard of living??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
That was the God's honest truth.
Comparing ROA 1988 to ROA 1989 was how I came up with my original estimate for
4/5 of the members leaving- 4/5 of the attendance for the previous year was
missing-and more (like me) were missing right after that.
You missed all the small crowds everywhere.
Me, I went to see personally if all the second-hand reports were true.
(They understated things, if anything.) I also went to raid the bookstore
one last time, before I discovered that Christians have decent bookstores, too.
Heck, Barnes & Noble carries a decent selection.
The transparent appeals to authority, the absence of spontaneity among the
attendees, the corps listening in on all conversations (one proving my point-
he interrupted one where, earlier, I had said this sort of thing happened),
the physical threats for asking questions, donna calling lcm
"our spiritual leader" and "our spiritual head" from the main stage,
lcm unable to tell that the distinction between "sonship RIGHT" and
"sonship OBLIGATION" was entirely in twi's eyes and neither phrase was in
Scripture, the transparent attempts to tug heartstrings, the mainstage
appearances of every member of the wierwille family who could be convinced to
attend, the prostituting of mrs w onstage to say that people who REALLY
love her could only be people who would stand with her in the ministry....
I miss ROA 89 so much.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Or scheming- how can you get far far more out of far far fewer people?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
20,000+ for the VP memorial ROA was probably accurate. I was there; it was crowded.
As I recall, there never were as many as 4000 WOWs in a year (even with multiple "waves"), although there was supposed to be some "spiritual significance" for that number. There may have been more than 3000 WOWs at one time, however.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
George, I went out wow that memorial roa it was a sad dreary year...with vpw gone and no one supposed to talk about it....there was none of the exhileration and excitement of the former wow training and preperations...just a feeling of resigned determination to get a nasty job done...., as returning wows, we arrived at the roa after pop had been read....man talk about a depressing time of turmoil.....there was not any of the pride or feeling of accomplishment of former wow years....just a weary unutterable thankfullness that the nightmare was about to end.........it was a huge let down.....our lc having just become one of the newest members of the bot.....was unable to see us or walk into the big top with the dispirited wows that had managed to survive that year in his state.....(most lc`s managed to be on hand to congratulate and pin their wows)
I only was able to attend one more after that due to being very pregnant for the remainder of my years in twi.....even with all of the troubles, I dearly loved roa, even after 15 years, I have dreams of showing up and searching for old friends, hoping that things have changed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ToadFriend
George St. George is right about there once being over 3,000 WOWs.
I assisted the WOW Coordinator in the Trunk Office during my first year in-residence, last block, and during my interim year at HQ, which was May 1982 through August 1983. I put the records of the WOWs for that year on a spreadsheet, and the number that I recall during that year was 3,200 ... I remember being surprised because the goal had been "Four Thousand [WOWs] for the Fortieth [Anniversary, which was in 1982]." That was the largest amount of folks ever to go out WOW.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve!
Yup, it was supposed to be 4000 for the 40th, and it ended up being just over 3000.
And it went waaaaay downhill from there.
The joke the next year was "44 for the 44th".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
I attended ROA '80-'87. The numbers people recount here seem to agree with my memories. I went out WOW in '82-'83, so I was one of the 3,200 or so. I remember a lot being made of "4000 for the 40th" until the actual number became apparent, then the phrase "4000 for the 40th" disappeared... as if it had never been.
To the best of my understanding there were about 100,000 people who had taken PFAL, but there were never more than about 30,000 actually "standing" at any one time. I guess ROA turn out was always a pretty good indicator of the level of interest.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
andreatheflorist
HI folks-Ok exhausted after the Mother of all holidays for me-(lots of flowers mother's day)
Rascal, you Rascal- Thanks for the kind words there-and yep- you are absolutly correct-(I went wow the year before you-) After pop was read and leaked to some of us reg believers (lockbox-a leaking sieve)I have not seen a more dispirted group of humans than at the roa. I miss some things-people-wow burgers. Long shower lines-misguided leadership? don't miss that! PS Belle-think you're spiffy too!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
And a big thanks to you Andrea and your tribe. Without you, a lot of us men would be in serious trouble today.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
signals
Just from my research, I think '85 was their peak year of 40000! Like when I went to ROA, not everybody attends. A site I posted elsewhere claims that over 100000 members have been involved with TWI in it's span.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Signals -- I missed ROA 84, but I sure did make the effort to be there at ROA 85, since it was the *memorial* for docvic (I still liked the guy at that time).
The numbers for twi were fast declining even then, and then when the POP hit a year or so later, the exodus out of New Knoxville might have easily been compared to the Isrealites leaving Egypt!
Again -- I don't know the number of those in attendance, or the membership numbers overall -- but whatever they were -- they were going down fast.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
About 100,000 people have signed up for pfal.
If you think back, that's how many people paid their money and gave their names,
not how many made it to Session 1.
That's also not how many people made it to Session 12,
and not how many stuck around AFTER.
Just counting my first pfal, 8 people were signed up as new students,
including me.
7 of us showed up for Session 1.
3 of us completed Session 12.
(Me and 2 people in twi families.)
So, saying there were 100,000 people or more IN twi is more than an exaggeration.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
signals
The site doesn't claim how many took the clas, but how many people may have been effected by TWI over it's lifespan. Some people came to twigs and never took the class. Remember that the ministry began when Weirwille claims God talked to him. Here's the site(I'm sure you know it):Inside TWI
You decide!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.