True, Johniam. But we are left here to carry on his work. So the questions raised are valid ones to ask. What would be his response to these and the suffering with which we are surrounded...would he simply shrug his shoulders and say "Oh, well."
Or
Might not he not remind us of the following:
"Is this not the fast that the I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor who are cast out into thy house? When thou seest the naked that thou cover him: and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?"
I think most Christians think "what would Paul do?"
Ha -- I don't. It is all ONE BOOK, and what was said in Genesis is just as relevant as what is said in Revelation.
Oeno -- Good question, and I can only guess that Jesus would do the same thing He did while walking here on earth. Ruffle a few feathers here and there, comfort those in need, love all, be adamant about the scripture, and never give in to the
*status quo*.
quote:
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Somehow -- I think that His being in Heavan has intensified this *mission*, and He would do the same all over again. Just an IMHO.
Ha -- I don't. It is all ONE BOOK, and what was said in Genesis is just as relevant as what is said in Revelation.
That's the right answer if the question was "What does the Scripture say I should do?" Or more specifically, "What does the NT Scripture say I should do?".
IMHO, a given situation might indeed be handled differently in light of Paul's teachings than it would in the light of Christ's.
True, Johniam. But we are left here to carry on his work. So the questions raised are valid ones to ask. What would be his response to these and the suffering with which we are surrounded...would he simply shrug his shoulders and say "Oh, well."
Or
Might not he not remind us of the following:
"Is this not the fast that the I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor who are cast out into thy house? When thou seest the naked that thou cover him: and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?"
Isaiah 58:6-7
If he were here he would not be here as the Messiah, that work is finished; he'd be here as a member of a community, perhaps as a minister. He would and did actually walk away from some situations...remember the guy to whom he said "Who made me a judge or a divider over you?"? And how about in Matt 15 where he said "Let them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind and they both shall fall into the ditch"? That was the extent of his 'cult awareness' activity. We really can't know for sure exactly what he would have done as Joe Citizen. Sure he may have gotten involved with something like Diana was against land mines and Bob Barker is against wearing furs, but he wasn't 'all things to all men', he was one thing FOR all men...the Christ!
I guess my the larger point I was making has been lost in the translation. Perhaps it is my fault for not making it clear from the beginning. Johniam, I totally agree with everything you say who Jesus was and is. However, the discussion that I was attempting to foment among those of us who say we are His followers and that he is in us...looking through his eyes, how should we respond to the questions raised.
I hope this brings clarity to our discussion here.
I guess my the larger point I was making has been lost in the translation
I don't think so --it was pretty clear. I just think that the concept of actually holding that as a standard is sadly and mysteriously foreign to much of Christianity as has been illustrated.
The life of Jesus was also pretty clearly laid out, but much of 'Christianity' has morphed into many things that are barely recognizable at times of anything that could remotely be associated with his life and example IMO ( along the lines of the things you asked above).
I have pretty much given up on Christianity, or at least any kind of institutionalized brand because it seems to too easily dance out from under questions like this and is content with a veneer that justifies its own lifestyles.
That being said I think Jesus would be ahealer and a teacher, probably not recognized and barely believed if he were here today--- and still trying to make the same points because nobody has gotten it yet....same goes for anyone who claims to be his follower
The questions you posed imo are all on the right track
Would he settle the question which religion is right?
Or would he break down the walls and strip us of the labels that separate us causing us to look smugly down our noses at each other?
There's always going to be labels. Without labels (any noun is a label, isn't it?) every conversation would take forever. We can use labels as a vehicle of either judgement or love. When Jesus reproved those people who criticized him for healing a woman who was bowed and couldn't lift herself up on the sabbath day, he called the woman a "daughter of Abraham" saying "shouldn't she be loosed from her burden?" That's a label. It's not the tools we use it's how we use them. I still say the best indication of what Jesus WOULD do is to look at what he DID do.
True, there is not just one answer. As far as labels are concerned...Protestant is a label, Roman Catholic is a label, Jew is a label and TWI is a label and I don't think it takes much more than casual observation of history to see how each of these labels have been used to separate people in neat little compartments where the people who agree with your point of view enjoy a preferred status in the eyes of God while the others are villified because of their label regardless of "content of their character."
The other day I heard news of a young boy working in a garment sweat factory who fell behind in the production line. His boss walked up to him and beat him on the face causing a laceration. The boss didn't want the blood on the garments so he took out a cigarette lighter and cauterized the laceration by burning it.
Would Jesus support that boss by buying his garments?
Or would such injustice irrelevant because an identical case cannot be found in the gospels?
It's not about telling others what they should do, but living His example to the best of my ability.
In this day and time we have many examples of voiceless preaching by the example of a life lived -- Christians in moslem countries and in China where it is a crime to be a Christian.
If the kindness of Christ does not shine through I am lost.
Jesus dying for Pilate's sins (as well as yours and mine) was an act of selfless love that did not aid and abete Pilate's murderous injustices.
That is the difference!
You may try to relegate the ministry of the risen Christ to chapter and verse to give yourself permission to smugly turn away from the suffering and injustice around you but be reminded of His admonition...when you have done unto the least of these, you have done unto Me.
WDJD ? From what I read of the 'historical texts'Jesus simply 'got involved'.On his way to fulfilling his destiny he 'threw a spanner in the works' 'interferred' with the accepted cycle of life and death,selfishness,evil etc.. that abounds on this planet.Even with God raising him from the dead it seems that this cycle of life and death has begun to be altered forever.
Geza Vermes, a world-class biblical scholar takes you back 2,000 years to show what life was really like in Jesus' time.
Before his Hungarian-Jewish parents were killed in the Holocaust, they and their 6-year-old son, Vermes, converted to Catholicism. As an adult, Vermes was ordained a priest, but later, while teaching at Oxford, reaffirmed his Judaic origins. Today Vermes, who has spent his life studying religion, considers himself a non-practicing Jew.
Vermes' spiritual journey and interest in Jesus have been very public. His translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls to English; his study of the Gospels and non-Christian sources such as the work of the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus; and his five books on Jesus, including the recent "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus," have made him one of the world's leading biblical scholars.
Here, he evokes the historical Jesus and shares with us the details of what life was like in the Holy Land in Jesus' time:
EDUCATION. "Every Jewish boy was educated in the Bible from early childhood," says Vermes, who explains that the writings of ancient rabbis refer to a system of primary education based on the synagogue and the schoolhouse next door. Boys learned to read and write, but the textbook was the Torah, the first five books of what we now call the Bible.
ATHLETICS. Jews with Greek education and culture introduced athletic games like running, wrestling and discus throwing in Jerusalem. "We know from the Books of Maccabees [books of the Old Testament included in Roman Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, but not Protestant ones] that the Jews in Jerusalem decided to build a stadium for sporting events," Vermes says. "But the Greeks competed naked, and the pious Jews didn't allow nudity in public." Those who could afford it built private swimming pools. "We know that King Herod arranged for the murder of his brother-in-law and disguised it as a swimming pool accident."
POLITICS. Shortly after Jesus' birth, King Herod the Great died, and the Romans divided the Holy Land into sections: Judea, including Jerusalem; Galilee, the rural region where Jesus lived; and Gaulanitis, which included what is now southern Syria. Each was ruled by a different son of Herod. As long as the sons paid taxes to the Romans, the areas remained relatively free. But 10 years after Herod's death, the Romans demoted Judea's ruler and planted a Roman governor. Jesus spent most of his public life in Galilee and didn't experience Roman rule until he went to Jerusalem, where he was eventually arrested and put to death.
RELIGION. Religion was the center of daily life. The temple in Jerusalem was divided into separate areas. There was a large external courtyard where anyone could go. Then there were several inner courtyards only Jews could enter. Those courtyards included one open to both women and men, one open only to men, and one only priests could enter. Finally, there was the innermost chamber, which only the high priest could enter, and only on the Day of Atonement. If anyone entered on any other day, he or she would be put to death. The Jews also put to death any non-Jews who passed beyond the first courtyard.
"We know from Josephus that there were inscriptions in Latin and Greek along the bordering area warning non-Jews that they risked their life if they crossed that barrier," Vermes says. "One of these inscriptions was discovered in the temple area in the 19th century. [Today] it's in a museum in Istanbul."
MARRIAGE. "Monogamy was not a rule imposed by the Bible," Vermes says. "Jewish men could have several wives, but by the time of Jesus that became rare, and only the very rich could afford it. Sex was important in a marriage and considered the duty of the husband to his wife."
An engagement was as binding as marriage. Often parents brokered engagements when their children were very young; when the time came to seal the marriage, there was a feast, and the bride moved into the bridegroom's house.
Divorce was not frowned on, and some Jews said if a woman was a bad cook, that was grounds enough for divorce. Others said sexual misbehavior was the only appropriate grounds. Adultery resulted in both lovers being stoned to death.
DEATH. Stoning was the most common Jewish form of execution. It was the penalty for blasphemy in addition to adultery. Beheading and burning on the stake were less common forms of execution, for other offenses. Crucifixion, practiced by the Romans, also was very common. Criminals could be crucified by being nailed or tied to a cross. The crucified died of asphyxiation and often had their legs broken to accelerate death.
Josephus reports that during the final Jewish war in the ancient Holy Land, which ended with the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, the Romans captured many Jewish rebels. In the last months of the rebellion, as many as 500 people a day were crucified.
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Jim
I hate to bring this up again.
I think most Christians think "what would Paul do?"
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johniam
I think the more relevant questions are...1) What DID he do? and 2) What DOES he do?
He WOULD do neither of the either/or questions on the first post because today is man's day/man's judgement.
He DID...finish the work his Father gave him to do, lead captivity captive, etc.
He DOES mediate between God and man, advocate with God on our behalf, etc.
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oenophile
True, Johniam. But we are left here to carry on his work. So the questions raised are valid ones to ask. What would be his response to these and the suffering with which we are surrounded...would he simply shrug his shoulders and say "Oh, well."
Or
Might not he not remind us of the following:
"Is this not the fast that the I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor who are cast out into thy house? When thou seest the naked that thou cover him: and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?"
Isaiah 58:6-7
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dmiller
Ha -- I don't. It is all ONE BOOK, and what was said in Genesis is just as relevant as what is said in Revelation.
Oeno -- Good question, and I can only guess that Jesus would do the same thing He did while walking here on earth. Ruffle a few feathers here and there, comfort those in need, love all, be adamant about the scripture, and never give in to the
*status quo*.
Somehow -- I think that His being in Heavan has intensified this *mission*, and He would do the same all over again. Just an IMHO.
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Jim
That's the right answer if the question was "What does the Scripture say I should do?" Or more specifically, "What does the NT Scripture say I should do?".
IMHO, a given situation might indeed be handled differently in light of Paul's teachings than it would in the light of Christ's.
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Tom Strange
he'd probably be hanging out on ebay!
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johniam
If he were here he would not be here as the Messiah, that work is finished; he'd be here as a member of a community, perhaps as a minister. He would and did actually walk away from some situations...remember the guy to whom he said "Who made me a judge or a divider over you?"? And how about in Matt 15 where he said "Let them alone, they are blind leaders of the blind and they both shall fall into the ditch"? That was the extent of his 'cult awareness' activity. We really can't know for sure exactly what he would have done as Joe Citizen. Sure he may have gotten involved with something like Diana was against land mines and Bob Barker is against wearing furs, but he wasn't 'all things to all men', he was one thing FOR all men...the Christ!
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oenophile
I guess my the larger point I was making has been lost in the translation. Perhaps it is my fault for not making it clear from the beginning. Johniam, I totally agree with everything you say who Jesus was and is. However, the discussion that I was attempting to foment among those of us who say we are His followers and that he is in us...looking through his eyes, how should we respond to the questions raised.
I hope this brings clarity to our discussion here.
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Galen
Is it really that important to consider exactly what a 'pure' jew fully adherent to the Laws of Moses, would do today?
Rather:
W.S.I.D. [What should I do? as a Son of God and Brother of Jesus?}
:-)
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mstar1
I don't think so --it was pretty clear. I just think that the concept of actually holding that as a standard is sadly and mysteriously foreign to much of Christianity as has been illustrated.
The life of Jesus was also pretty clearly laid out, but much of 'Christianity' has morphed into many things that are barely recognizable at times of anything that could remotely be associated with his life and example IMO ( along the lines of the things you asked above).
I have pretty much given up on Christianity, or at least any kind of institutionalized brand because it seems to too easily dance out from under questions like this and is content with a veneer that justifies its own lifestyles.
That being said I think Jesus would be ahealer and a teacher, probably not recognized and barely believed if he were here today--- and still trying to make the same points because nobody has gotten it yet....same goes for anyone who claims to be his follower
The questions you posed imo are all on the right track
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johniam
quote: looking through his eyes, how should we respond to the questions raised?
You seem to think there's only one right answer. I'm just not sure of that.
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johniam
For instance:
There's always going to be labels. Without labels (any noun is a label, isn't it?) every conversation would take forever. We can use labels as a vehicle of either judgement or love. When Jesus reproved those people who criticized him for healing a woman who was bowed and couldn't lift herself up on the sabbath day, he called the woman a "daughter of Abraham" saying "shouldn't she be loosed from her burden?" That's a label. It's not the tools we use it's how we use them. I still say the best indication of what Jesus WOULD do is to look at what he DID do.
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oenophile
True, there is not just one answer. As far as labels are concerned...Protestant is a label, Roman Catholic is a label, Jew is a label and TWI is a label and I don't think it takes much more than casual observation of history to see how each of these labels have been used to separate people in neat little compartments where the people who agree with your point of view enjoy a preferred status in the eyes of God while the others are villified because of their label regardless of "content of their character."
More later...
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oenophile
The other day I heard news of a young boy working in a garment sweat factory who fell behind in the production line. His boss walked up to him and beat him on the face causing a laceration. The boss didn't want the blood on the garments so he took out a cigarette lighter and cauterized the laceration by burning it.
Would Jesus support that boss by buying his garments?
Or would such injustice irrelevant because an identical case cannot be found in the gospels?
Do you think God has a passion for justice?
www.ijm.org
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johniam
Yes!
Luke 13:1 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Would Jesus have "supported Pilate" by dying for his sins?
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Kit Sober
W.W.J.D. is very personal to me.
It's not about telling others what they should do, but living His example to the best of my ability.
In this day and time we have many examples of voiceless preaching by the example of a life lived -- Christians in moslem countries and in China where it is a crime to be a Christian.
If the kindness of Christ does not shine through I am lost.
hopefully,
Kit
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oenophile
Jesus dying for Pilate's sins (as well as yours and mine) was an act of selfless love that did not aid and abete Pilate's murderous injustices.
That is the difference!
You may try to relegate the ministry of the risen Christ to chapter and verse to give yourself permission to smugly turn away from the suffering and injustice around you but be reminded of His admonition...when you have done unto the least of these, you have done unto Me.
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waterbuffalo
Exactly right, Oeno. I agree with all you have said. Good thread!
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Allan
WDJD ? From what I read of the 'historical texts'Jesus simply 'got involved'.On his way to fulfilling his destiny he 'threw a spanner in the works' 'interferred' with the accepted cycle of life and death,selfishness,evil etc.. that abounds on this planet.Even with God raising him from the dead it seems that this cycle of life and death has begun to be altered forever.
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ljn698
what would Jesus do?
Jesus who?
if you mean Jesus the risen Christ
this question never helps me
the answer is always the same
Jesus probably wouldn't be stupid enough to get in this fix in the first place!!!
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Galen
http://www.usaweekend.com/05_issues/050327...jesus_life.html
What would Jesus do -- in his day?
Geza Vermes, a world-class biblical scholar takes you back 2,000 years to show what life was really like in Jesus' time.
Before his Hungarian-Jewish parents were killed in the Holocaust, they and their 6-year-old son, Vermes, converted to Catholicism. As an adult, Vermes was ordained a priest, but later, while teaching at Oxford, reaffirmed his Judaic origins. Today Vermes, who has spent his life studying religion, considers himself a non-practicing Jew.
Vermes' spiritual journey and interest in Jesus have been very public. His translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls to English; his study of the Gospels and non-Christian sources such as the work of the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus; and his five books on Jesus, including the recent "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus," have made him one of the world's leading biblical scholars.
Here, he evokes the historical Jesus and shares with us the details of what life was like in the Holy Land in Jesus' time:
EDUCATION. "Every Jewish boy was educated in the Bible from early childhood," says Vermes, who explains that the writings of ancient rabbis refer to a system of primary education based on the synagogue and the schoolhouse next door. Boys learned to read and write, but the textbook was the Torah, the first five books of what we now call the Bible.
ATHLETICS. Jews with Greek education and culture introduced athletic games like running, wrestling and discus throwing in Jerusalem. "We know from the Books of Maccabees [books of the Old Testament included in Roman Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, but not Protestant ones] that the Jews in Jerusalem decided to build a stadium for sporting events," Vermes says. "But the Greeks competed naked, and the pious Jews didn't allow nudity in public." Those who could afford it built private swimming pools. "We know that King Herod arranged for the murder of his brother-in-law and disguised it as a swimming pool accident."
POLITICS. Shortly after Jesus' birth, King Herod the Great died, and the Romans divided the Holy Land into sections: Judea, including Jerusalem; Galilee, the rural region where Jesus lived; and Gaulanitis, which included what is now southern Syria. Each was ruled by a different son of Herod. As long as the sons paid taxes to the Romans, the areas remained relatively free. But 10 years after Herod's death, the Romans demoted Judea's ruler and planted a Roman governor. Jesus spent most of his public life in Galilee and didn't experience Roman rule until he went to Jerusalem, where he was eventually arrested and put to death.
RELIGION. Religion was the center of daily life. The temple in Jerusalem was divided into separate areas. There was a large external courtyard where anyone could go. Then there were several inner courtyards only Jews could enter. Those courtyards included one open to both women and men, one open only to men, and one only priests could enter. Finally, there was the innermost chamber, which only the high priest could enter, and only on the Day of Atonement. If anyone entered on any other day, he or she would be put to death. The Jews also put to death any non-Jews who passed beyond the first courtyard.
"We know from Josephus that there were inscriptions in Latin and Greek along the bordering area warning non-Jews that they risked their life if they crossed that barrier," Vermes says. "One of these inscriptions was discovered in the temple area in the 19th century. [Today] it's in a museum in Istanbul."
MARRIAGE. "Monogamy was not a rule imposed by the Bible," Vermes says. "Jewish men could have several wives, but by the time of Jesus that became rare, and only the very rich could afford it. Sex was important in a marriage and considered the duty of the husband to his wife."
An engagement was as binding as marriage. Often parents brokered engagements when their children were very young; when the time came to seal the marriage, there was a feast, and the bride moved into the bridegroom's house.
Divorce was not frowned on, and some Jews said if a woman was a bad cook, that was grounds enough for divorce. Others said sexual misbehavior was the only appropriate grounds. Adultery resulted in both lovers being stoned to death.
DEATH. Stoning was the most common Jewish form of execution. It was the penalty for blasphemy in addition to adultery. Beheading and burning on the stake were less common forms of execution, for other offenses. Crucifixion, practiced by the Romans, also was very common. Criminals could be crucified by being nailed or tied to a cross. The crucified died of asphyxiation and often had their legs broken to accelerate death.
Josephus reports that during the final Jewish war in the ancient Holy Land, which ended with the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, the Romans captured many Jewish rebels. In the last months of the rebellion, as many as 500 people a day were crucified.
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WeWereScammed
What would Scooby do?
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A la prochaine
Scooby? Did someone say Scooby.
I love Scooby
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Steve!
WWJD? JWRTFM!
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