"the Way:Living in Wonderland"

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by WordWolf:

"Uncle" Harry gave some interesting biographical details that help

fill in some of the blanks, especially about the youngest son in

the family, vp.

page 77

quote:

"I didn't see much of him when he was growing up. When I was

seventeen, I started to work, was away from home most of the time.

That's near about when he started school. We all walked a mile to the

same red schoolhouse. We all had chores to do: milking, feeding the

cows, horses, hogs and sheep."

quote:

"When VP was in high school, Dad wanted him to take over the

farm later. You see, that was the tradition-that the youngest son take

over the farm, just as he had done. But VP emphatically said no.

He'd always liked to study and said he wanted to study for the

ministry.

Our Dad said 'You haven't even learned to work well on the farm.

You'll never make a good preacher.'

But VP used to practice by preaching to the trees." Uncle Harry

chuckles at the recollection. "He'd go out to the woods for hours.

Dad thought he was loafing, but I knew what was going on. He was

preaching to the trees."

Really, Harry? You admitted you didn't SEE him most of the time.

Why wasn't he doing his chores in sight and preaching to the

animals on the farm, or, you know, the other kids, people who might

actually hear something of use? Maybe Dad was on to something.

David was a good shepherd FIRST, then a good man of God....

Later, we'll see what vpw has to say about kids and their work

ethic.

pg-78, Harry again.

quote:

"Our mother encouraged Dad to send the boy to seminary. He was

always full of pep and vinegar. But he never hurt a soul. He did a few

boy's tricks, though, I guess. He played basketball, was always very

energetic. That drive and desire for an education VP had is inherited.

It came from his grandmother on our father's side. Even three years

before he was ordained, he was preaching. In 1941, when he headed the

church in Payne, Ohio, Dad and I went to hear his trial sermons.

That was his first church- Payne, Ohio."

I thought he'd been preaching for years, Harry-to the trees.

Also, Lamarckianism has been thoroughly discredited. You can not

inherit an interest in learning. You can ENCOURAGE it, but not pass it

along from birth. Finally, Dad seems to think vpw lacked drive, but

you said he DID, at least about preaching. Hm.

Maybe he had drive for preaching, but neglected his chores.

Anyone else besides me want to chime in on these?

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by CoolWaters:

At least now I know why this book was so attractive to me at 16yo...'loafing' became 'work'...for others.

I mean, it's right there plain and simple. VP wouldn't do his chores, but he wanted things done 'right and up to snuff' and was one of 'our German people' who 'were not afraid of work'.

Yeah...everybody else doing the work to vp's oh so high standards...

::shiver::

[A la prochaine]

quote:

I forget who it was who said they were surprised when the

corps committment they had already made-for a 4-year

program-suddenly changed into a LIFETIME COMMITTMENT while

they were IN the program....

WW,

I think it may have been Skyrider who posted that. I wonder if we could find it in the archives??

[Ham]

Lifetime commitment..

And I think the whole aim of the corps was to provide "christian training" on par of that of the Marine Corps..

Yet even the Marine Corps is hardly a lifetime commitment. Sure, they "own" your a**, but only for a limited period of time.

You get trained, do your time, and you can move on, retire, or make it a lifetime commitment. Your choice. I'm sure the Marines have a LITTLE say if they want you hanging around twenty or so years though..

"A lifetime of christian service" did seem to turn into "a lifetime of servitude".

[WordWolf]

*does a search*

Hm. A few people had some relevant comments.

GrouchoMarxJr:

quote:

...And another thing that bugged the .... out of me while in

residence, were their bait and switch tactics. When I signed up, I made a FOUR YEAR

commitment. That was it! It was optional to take assignments upon graduation...at

least, that's what they said in WRITING! A couple of months into the training, at

Emporia, they tell us all that we have made a LIFETIME commitment to the corps!...

and if we don't "understand THAT"...then we are "spiritually out to lunch." I sat

there listening to this crap, muttering under my breath that I only committed

for 4 years, getting angrier by the moment as everybody just sat there with a

glazed look on their faces saying "yup, yup"...not me! I regret not packing my

stuff up and splitting right then and there!

Skyrider's reply to that quote:

quote:

Manipulation-mongers! They waited a couple months and then, slam-dunk our

commitment level when we are behind CLOSED DOORS and surrounded by PEER PRESURE.

What a bunch of low-life tactics!

Was this tactic used in the zero corps? And, everyone left???

When the atrocities of the corps program are exposed...vpw was a major player in

scamming people. He may have been on the stage a lot, but some of us know that vpw

could easily hide in the shadows.

Skyrider had also said

quote:

By the early 80s...the term cop out had

gained legs...and had evolved to mean...any corps person or corps grad who

quit taking assignments was a cop out.

Twi changed the parameters.

Now, it was a LIFETIME COMMITMENT to stand with twi.

And, that labelling is still in effect to this day.

Shazdancer said

quote:

I was committed to God long before I went into the Corps.

I signed up for Recognized Family Corps because I wanted the in-depth knowledge

that the Corps was supposedly being taught, before my husband and I were to join

Staff. We were accepted into the Corps on that basis. I still have a Recognized

Corps certificate to prove it.

Long after our in-res year, a couple of Corps leaders tried to explain to me that

I had made a lifetime commitment to the Corps program--to submit to evaluations,

and go to any and go to any Corps meetings that were required. Silly me for

requiring them to honor their agreement with me.

I am just as committed to doing good and respecting God as I ever was, I just don't

express it in the same way that I did while in TWI.

igotout explained

quote:

what Skyrider is alluding to is that the Way Corps

"commitment" we originally made became a "we own you and you WILL do what we say

for the rest of your lives" commitment.

And if you didn't like it then you were dropped from the Corps if not kicked out

all together from TWI. That's pure BS.

Originally back when larger groups of us were going into the Corps by the hundreds

(I was in the 7th, I believe Sky was in the 9th) it was not implied that there

would be this "dog soldier leash" around your life after you graduated. Only

much later did this become specifically stated.

Heck I remember LCM stating one evening at a Corps meeting in Emporia...

"not all of you can become branch leaders. Many of you need to go out and get

jobs and careers and go to college."

Well some of us did. Later we were resented for it. Yes it was implied that once

Corps always Corps. No prob. Think Marine Corps. You have had the training and

served your country and now you serve in society as a better man for it.

It was more promoted as another program like WOW or other such ministry

commitments. A Wow Vet was not under this short leash and control, for example to

move every three years and such. Yet he is still a Wow Vet. I still have one of

the old Corps Vet tee shirts which I would bet they discontinued in latter years.

A lifetime of Christiand service? No prob...Still doing the best I can. A

lifetime of volunteer enslavement on a dog's leash?

No way, Rosie!

[A la prochaine]

WoWzA WW,

That was quick work!!

Great posts!

[Jan]

quote:

Very insightful.....after all these years.

And some of those who were quoted in Elena's book have been LONG GONE FROM TWI for years and years........Stxve Hxfner (gone), Elena (gone), Tim B (gone), Charlene (gone), Earl B (gone), etc. etc.

How do you know for certain who is gone from TWI? Where did Elena go for ex.?

Jan

Jan

[A la prochaine]

Jan,

Skyrider posted the post you quoted...but I know that those people had left TWI long before I ever did. That's how I know.

Should have followed their lead -->

[skyrider]

quote:

I think it may have been Skyrider who posted that. I wonder if we could find it in the archives??

Yeah......I said it THEN, and I'll say it AGAIN.

When twi did their little corps promos....and sent out their literature....there was NO HINT of the corps program being a lifetime commitment to the way exaggerational.

I did NOT make a "lifetime commitment" to serve twi doctrine"......NO WAY. Only behind closed doors, did twi have the sleazy tactics to try and put their hooks into us young corps. And, yeah....for years, I kept taking on assignments to appease the guilt. But in my heart, I knew my allegiance was to God Almighty.

And, the further from hq....the BETTER my year. To avoid suck-up leaders and the bureaucratic cesspool of committee indulgence was NOT SOMETHING THAT APPEALED TO ME. I detested the lording over of God's heritage. I detested martinfail's scream-sessions. I detested the idolizing of the wierwille-owens-wierwille hierarchy. I detested the lcm-wannabes and the golf club gang.

Sure, I could have left......but, I kept waiting to see if "the new classes" and "sanctifying of the household" would produce godly results. I knew too much about cgeer to want to follow his groupies and his mentality. NO THANKS.

To me, the corps program was THE BEGINNING OF THE END. Yeah, it could have been a wonderful blessing....if godly agendas were backing it. But wierwille, in his lust for power formed and conformed THE CORPS PROGRAM INTO HIS IMAGE......an image of arrogance, and self-serving lust.

Signing on the line to go corps......was ONE of the worst decisions of my life. I deeply regret it......STILL.

skyrider

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:

quote:

Very insightful.....after all these years.

And some of those who were quoted in Elena's book have been LONG GONE FROM TWI for years and years........Stxve Hxfner (gone), Elena (gone), Tim B (gone), Charlene (gone), Earl B (gone), etc. etc.

How do you know for certain who is gone from TWI? Where did Elena go for ex.?

Jan

Jan

Just off the top of my head....

twi has lost over 95% of their previous members, all told.

The few who stick around are a bit more visible as individuals.

Furthermore, twi has done stuff where they venerate old-timers

who've been around x number of years.

Finally, people who left-until Waydale and the Greasespot Cafe-

just mysteriously vanished.

That's a fair description for some of these people.

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by WordWolf:

"Uncle" Harry gave some interesting biographical details that help

fill in some of the blanks, especially about the youngest son in

the family, vp.

page 77

quote:

"I didn't see much of him when he was growing up. When I was seventeen, I started to work, was away from home most of the time. That's near about when he started school. We all walked a mile to the same red schoolhouse. We all had chores to do: milking, feeding the cows, horses, hogs and sheep."

quote:

"When VP was in high school, Dad wanted him to take over the farm later. You see,that was the tradition-that the youngest son take over the farm, just as he had done. But VP emphatically said no. He'd always liked to study and said he wanted to study for the ministry.

Our Dad said 'You haven't even learned to work well on the farm.

You'll never make a good preacher.'

But VP used to practice by preaching to the trees." Uncle Harry

chuckles at the recollection. "He'd go out to the woods for hours.

Dad thought he was loafing, but I knew what was going on. He was

preaching to the trees."

Really, Harry? You admitted you didn't SEE him most of the time.

Why wasn't he doing his chores in sight and preaching to the

animals on the farm, or, you know, the other kids, people who might

actually hear something of use? Maybe Dad was on to something.

David was a good shepherd FIRST, then a good man of God....

Later, we'll see what vpw has to say about kids and their work

ethic.

pg-78, Harry again.

quote:

"Our mother encouraged Dad to send the boy to seminary. He was always full of pep and vinegar. But he never hurt a soul. He did a few boy's tricks, though, I guess. He played basketball, was always very energetic. That drive and desire for an education VP had is inherited. It came from his grandmother on our father's side. Even three years before he was ordained, he was preaching. In 1941, when he headed the church in Payne, Ohio, Dad and I went to hear his trial sermons.

That was his first church- Payne, Ohio."

I thought he'd been preaching for years, Harry-to the trees.

Also, Lamarckianism has been thoroughly discredited. You can not

inherit an interest in learning. You can ENCOURAGE it, but not pass it along from birth. Finally, Dad seems to think vpw lacked drive, but you said he DID, at least about preaching. Hm.

Maybe he had drive for preaching, but neglected his chores.

pg-79.

quote:

"VP could tell you about his life. I don't know much, had my own business, lots of work to do. I know one thing, though-VP always likes things done right, done the way they should be done. That's why at the Sunday night service everything is checked right up to snuff. See? Perfect. But that's the way we were brought up years ago.

Our German people were not afraid of work. I guess that stays with you."

Anyone?

[shazdancer]

Dear Jan,

I couldn't tell you what year Elena left, but she spent a number of years in Ohio, fellowshipping with W****r Cu***ngs and touring around the country teaching at ex-Way fellowships. She worked as a ghost writer and biographer (mostly for corporate executives, I think). In the late 90's, she returned to the family home in CT to care for her aging mother.

I know she followed the postings on WayDale (the ex-Way website before this one) but I don't think she ever posted there.

Dear sky,

I think of my being told that "Doctor had never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps" and that I had made a "lifetime commitment" (I did???) as a good thing, in hindsight. Those statements, and a few more that came at about the same time, pointed out to me what was really going on at the top level of leadership (deception), and prompted me to walk away with most of my integrity still intact.

Regards,

Shaz

[WordWolf]

vpw said this about someone ELSE, but

I especially LOVE LOVE LOVE to compare this next quote with a

young person called vpw...

quote:

"He was like lots of the young people today. He didn't know

how to work. But I knew you had to have discipline, self-discipline,

to really work that Word and learn. If you can't work in a field

or dig a ditch for a day, what kind of discipline would you have

working the Word of God?"

[A la prochaine]

quote:

Our Dad said 'You haven't even learned to work well on the farm.

You'll never make a good preacher.'

WW,

NOW this quote flabbergasted me

VP was the king of saying how he knew how to work because he had lived on a farm...he knew the meaning of a hard days work, he could work that word because he had been taught how to work and work hard.

He was always touting himself about how he KNEW what it took to be a worker, and that that is what the corps was supposed to teach us slobs who didn't know how to pick up a shovel!

[WordWolf]

quote:

Our Dad said 'You haven't even learned to work well on the farm.

You'll never make a good preacher.'

vpw would have agreed that young vpw would "never make a good

preacher." He said of such youngsters as himself:

quote:

He didn't know how to work. But I knew you had to have

discipline, self-discipline, to really work that Word and learn.

If you can't work in a field or dig a ditch for a day, what kind

of discipline would you have working the Word of God?

Since that's a rhetorical question, he's saying that you are not

a fit workman of God's Word if you are lazy to work. His father

agreed, and said vpw was such a person. Therefore, by his OWN

"standards", vpw was an unfit workman.

ALP said

quote:

NOW this quote flabbergasted me

VP was the king of saying how he knew how to work because he had lived on a farm...he knew the meaning of a hard days work, he could work that word because he had been taught how to work and work hard.

He was always touting himself about how he KNEW what it took to be a worker, and that that is what the corps was supposed to teach us slobs who didn't know how to pick up a shovel!

So, it looks hypocritical of him to say that, and it looks like

he lied to everyone. So far, that seems to be his standard M.O.-

order people around, lie to them and make himself look as great

as possible, telling whichever lies will make that work.

I also think it's mildly ironic that the guy lecturing others on

"self-discipline" was a lifelong chainsmoker and chronic drinker,

to the point that his organs suffered permanent damage and killed

him fairly young-and he had access to EXCELLENT healthcare!

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by WordWolf:

Uncle Harry, giving more history.

pg-79-80.

quote:

After Payne, Ohio, he moved to Van Wert in 1944. That's where he had the church until he resigned in 1957. He was a good

and active preacher, built a sermon well, got young people

interested. But the inner depths of what he teaches now, I didn't

know anything about it. If he was searching, I didn't know it. I

was proud to have a minister in the family. Our closeness began

back in Payne, and I always encouraged him to keep believing and

backed him up in every way.

You were close, but there was NO indication he was searching out

deeper truths and, especially, overjoyed at finding some. What he

taught then was completely different than what he taught later

Fascinating.

quote:

The in-depth teaching really got going in 1957 when he

resigned from the organized church. It wasn't a surprise, but then

really it was. To branch away on your own like that is quite an

undertaking. He had classes; he needed freedom, time to work the

Word. And he had a family of five children to support. It was a

real step of believing on his part.

Harry seems to keep track of the money on things.

He says he paid Rhoda as secretary out of his OWN pocket, and

criticizes the people in Troy because they wanted to hear vpw

teach, and have him over for meals, but not support his ministry

financially. His part of this book ends with the final quote

quote:

"It wouldn't surprise me if I got a check for a million

dollars today."

Dave gives a partial history of the A/V aspects.

pg-82

quote:

"I told the Doctor and he gave me some tapes. That's when

he told me about the old films he had too. 'Try these out', he

said. They were black and white clips from the TV program called

'The Teacher'

that he had made out of Lima in 1963.

I noticed that EVERYBODY except his brother calls him "The Doctor",

not VP. If it wasn't at his directive, instituted and encouraged

by him, I'll eat my keyboard.

I also noticed he was calling HIMSELF 'The Teacher' as early

as 1963.

quote:

I was all set up for a class. On the appointed day, out of

twenty people who vowed they were interested, four showed up. I

was furious. I was mad. I have never gotten teed off like that

since then. But I learned a lot from that. After that, I

never looked at numbers again.

God said He'd do the adding. We just hold forth the Word. If people

didn't come, they were the losers, not me. That was a real good

lesson for me.

And yet, Dave keeps mentioning numbers after this, which he must

have 'looked at'.

Dave seems to think he came up with the idea of vpw on film, and

sold vpw on it. Perhaps he is correct.

pg-83

quote:

The films were good because neither Bob nor I had the

authority to teach the Word with twenty-five years of research

behind us.

pg 85, he says how they priced the filming, then raised all the

money IN ADVANCE of filming, and how "Doctor raised the final

$11,000 himself."

(He must have raised it by growing it, apparently.)

page 85, we see the prices invented.

quote:

We did free classes here in Ohio, too, then in Florida. It

took us a while to learn we were just burning ourselves out for

nothing. We wanted to make it available.

The film had already been paid for.

But we've learned that people have to commit themselves, make an

investment, to get something out of it.

quote:

Now we charge $65 for the film class including all the

materials- a syllabus and four hard-bound books.

You have to have eight signed up for a tape class and at least

twenty for a film class. We don't like to have more than 44 in a

film class either.

We have all that on the authority of the man who never looked at

numbers again. How many people besides me see contradictions from

one page to the next, and in how such a high (for 1970) price for

those LITTLE books was set?

Anyone?

[shazdancer]

Bueller?

The books in those days were Vols I, II, and III, the Holy Spirit book, the PFAL book and the syllabus. Worth thirty dollars, tops. I paid $65.

Interesting that he mentions that the class was already paid for. I would've taken it for free -- heck, I got a lot out of high school, and I was taking THAT for free, too, at the time. So I never quite understood that argument that they "had to" charge for the class, or no one would take it seriously. I even spouted that party line to others. Duh.

Regards,

Shaz

[rascal]

It was 100 when I took it....an I had to sell the damn thing as a wow the next year at 200.

It was a lot of money, I was always a little uncomfortable explaining the logic behind it...

[Bramble]

My July 4th 'freedom' class cost $200. Took months to save for.I was a college kid with a restaurant job. Sheesh--I should have known then.

[WordWolf]

I'd agree that people who pay SOMETHING feel more of an

obligation to see a class through.

I also think it is sensible to recover the costs of

the textbooks.

However, at $40, I paid RETAIL for the materials.

That meant that the class was organized to turn a PROFIT

on the materials. (All expenses except the tapes and books

were donated, so the only costs were the books-which were

sold-and the tapes.)

Those of you paying $50, $100 or $200 were basically

shaken down for whatever money could be gotten from you.

LOCAL "peon" believers were always the noteworthy people in

the ministry. People barely able to scrape together the

$40 have been given Bibles and other assistance, and I've

seen people offer to pay the full expense for near-strangers.

It was always hq that watched the purse-strings and made

sure they got "their cut."

Frankly, it was STUPID of them to charge more than the cost

of the materials from a Christian AND a monetary point of

view. (This information won't help them NOW because the

horse ran out, so shutting the barn door is useless now.)

With faithful members supposedly tithing 10% of their income,

paying donations at EVERY big meeting, attending ROAs and

spending money there, buying books and taking OTHER classes,

the SMART thing would have been to make it easier for MORE

people to take it. Then again, the money was actually

secondary to the blind loyalty. So they traded exposure and

numbers for a smaller, more fanatical group.

That continues to this day. The current group is the most

fanatical, and numberwise, they can barely displace water in

a hot tub.

But they're loyal, these members. Both of them.

[WordWolf]

quote:

Originally posted by WordWolf:

We finally meet vpw on pg 124, and Mrs W on pg 125.

The contrast between them, as well as the spin on vpw's appearance,

are fascinating.

quote:

Dr. Wierwille regards me warmly. His face is rugged and ruddy.

Energy flows from his smile. His eyes sharp and blue as steel are set

off by a fan of smile-wrinkles at each temple. His expression is open,

exposed, yet completely unafraid and in no way defensive. His hair,

thick, brown-to-graying is partly covered by a charcoal felt hat.

Even in his worn denims and light blue workshirt today, his

appearance is striking, with his tall stature and athletic carriage.

I feel it's not complete without something like

"and when he stepped forward, the sun shone directly on him, even at

night."

Mrs W.

quote:

Unostentatious in appearance, Mrs. Wierwille, or Dotsie as

she is affectionately called, has a gentle manner which manifests

warmth and wisdom. Not one to compete for the spotlight, she stays

unnoticed in the background on many occasions when her husband is

teaching; and yet in her husband's absence she promptly steps into

many of his responsibilities with boldness and confidence. She shows a

quiet strength of character, yet without competitiveness. She speaks

up when something needs to be said and at other times is not

particularly talkative. Although not large in height or build, she

stands straight and dignified. Her dark hair, streaked with gray,

always looks well cared for and she dresses informally with good

taste.

Hm. When she walks, she walks on the ground.

Now, I KNOW someone will want to comment on this...

[templelady]

quote:

Hm. When she walks, she walks on the ground.

Well someone had too--between motorcoaches, motorcycles and inflated egos the whole thing would have just floated away otherwise.

I never met either of them but reading posts from those who knew Mrs. W. I have to wonder just how many would have stuck around if she hadn't been part and parcel of the entire package.

Especially the women. I think she was a very valuable asset to the VPW arsenal

[Oakspear]

a very effective smoke screen for VP's depradations

[rascal]

Yeah, her gentle demeanor, her general sense of decency lent an impression of moral character, integrety and and spiritual healthiness to twi.

In hindsight, I don`t know if that was necessarily a good thing :-(

Maybe without decent good hearted folks (there were many, many of us) to hide behind, vp wouldn`t have been able to pull it off.

[Ham]

True, it may have lent an impression of moral character..

but maybe without her presence, things could have been far, far worse.