I guess with the BOT being the only actual "members," WW's statement is true. Howevr, it's my impression (from the few that I've talked with) that the rank-and-file TWI'ers aren't fanatical. They're carrying out the motions without the emotions.
I felt weird going in. Dr. Wierwille was teaching and Howard Allen was with him. That
was in March of 1969. Doctor taught on positive believing and negative believing. Or course, I'd seen that principle working in my life on the football team with the coach riding me and my
bad performance. Dr. Wierwille was so dynamic and confident. He had all the answers from the
Word. I was awed. I was amazed. He captured my attention and after that session I signed up
for the rest of the class.
Here, I take note of 2 things.
1) A coach 'riding' an athlete, and destroying his confidence isn't just bad coaching and
distraction, it's a 'confirmation of the law of believing.'
2) Again with the "Dr.". All the answers "he" had from the Word-which, of course, are all
the answers BG Leonard and the others had from The Word.
Moving on...
Charlene shares about her initial teachings and doctrinal exposure to twi-at a Way Home.
pg-144.
quote:
Patte and I went over. Were we surprised! It was beautiful-big, plush,
handsomely furnished. It kind of bothered me because I'd been taught a lot about Christians
living poorly. But they showed me from the Word were it says God wants us to prosper and lead
a more abundant life.
Then he taught us about the four crucified with Christ and we got into the Trinity. That was
very hard for me to see because I had been raised a Catholic. But I had to agree that it
just was not anywhere in the Word.
Two more things here.
1) FIRST off, they were taught about comfortable living-by misuse of John 10:10, which does
not refer to financial wealth. If it DID, Jesus wouldn't have said it was hard for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
2) SECOND off, they jumped STRAIGHT into "4 crucified" and the Trinity.
For STARTING people. Nothing you'd think was needed to START with like "God loves you"
"God heals you", and so on-we jump straight into the "look how smart we are" stuff.
page-150, The Teacher prepares to speak.
quote:
His eyes squeezed shut, he seems to concentrate for a long time. Everyone waits in
anticipation, for when Doctor is relaxed and sharing after lunch or after supper, the
wonderful spirit and love of one big family is so thick and sweet that it can be touched and
felt. It's as though he just opens up his heart and lets us all walk right in, all of us.
He does not hold anything back, thereby putting each one of us in a privileged and special
position of being trusted, valued and loved. You see, he has lots of things to do,
decisions to make, letters to write, people to see; but he cares enough to take the time to
share with us. And that is a priceless honor.
Or, you know, he built anticipation by making the audience wait.
Standard speaker's tool number one. Even William Shatner's talked about it.
vpw tells a story about 2 men who supposedly lived in Van Wert, who did some remarkable things
yet nobody seemed to have ever heard of them, even after the fact. vpw even forgot their
names. Anyway, he says these guys just sat in an office together in silence for an hour
and MADE something happen by just thinking about it.
Here's some highlights.
pg-150.
quote:
"There were two men in Van Wert," he begins slowly. Now, they got together every
morning at 5am and believed together for an hour. Every morning. I don't know what they called
it. But they would set their minds on an agreed project. They never spoke; just got together
every morning and both concentrated on whatever it was, until it came to pass.
pg-151
quote:
Well, they just got together and put their minds on it every single morning for a
couple of weeks, and lo and behold, one day suddenly some guy who wanted to sell his
distillery just called them up, asked if they wanted to buy it. They'd never heard of the
guy with the distillery before. He found them.
Yep, they made millions, gambled, won. One man set up a foundation for children from
broken homes, also built the YMCA, YWCA and a hospital. It was something.
quote:
I used to watch how they operated. I was a minister there in Van Wert. I had my church,
my congregation. But I studied them. That was before God showed me the law of believing in all
its accuracy. You see, here were the two meanest guys you could ever want to meet.
Nobody liked them because they were so successful and no one else could hold a candle to
them.
Ok, so these guys nobody ever heard of just sat in a room concentrating on a business,
and out of the blue, a guy calls them up to sell his.
They didn't go around and say "If someone's interested in selling, please give them this
phone# or anything"- he just dialed the numbers by extra-special perception or something.
They were "the two meanest guys you could ever want to meet"-but they spent a FORTUNE
setting up a foundation for broken homes
and a YMCA-or ALL YMCAs-the story isn't clear
and a YWCA-or ALL YWCAs-the story isn't clear
AND a hospital.
Pretty selfless for really mean guys.
Also, they did ALL these things, and nobody could STAND them because they were incredibly
jealous of these 2 guys who shared their money with everyone. Apparently, the part that
they GOT the money before spending it really chafed. Those Van Wert CHURCH people must be
the most SHALLOW people in the country.
Also, were they disliked because they were mean, or because they were rich?
The reason hops back and forth.
pg-152, the moral of this fable is given.
quote:
I used to look at their successes-one after another-and then I'd look at those
defeated Christians all around me. And I was just amazed. I just couldn'y understand it,
until I understood from the Word of God the law of believing, the greatest law in the world
today. The I could see just what was happening.
It says in Mark that whosoever-now what does whosoever mean? Whosoever means whosoever,
not just Christians, not just Catholics, not just Way believers, but 'Whosoever shall say
unto this mountain, Be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his
heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall
have whatsoever he saith.' There it is, spelled out, the greatest law there is.
Then he gives some general plans for classes and growth and stuff, then,
pg-153.
quote:
"And you're my kids. You're just the greatest." His voice breaks momentarily, his
forehead wrinkles, his eyes red with tears of tenderness, he holds back nothing from us. And
we-we are all moved, touched to the core by his sharing his emotion with us.
we-we are all moved, touched to the core by his sharing his emotion with us.
Did not VP once teach that sincerity is not a guarantee for truth?
Sheeeshhh...maybe that's one that I should have taken heed to?? -->
You know...that was the stuff that kept me in for so many years. VP would do this display of emotion and I would think ...WOW! ...it must be the REAL thing...he's crying! I never figured it was Hollywood!
Given that this story is not "vetted", I'm going to take this and, in
the attempt to be fair, reduce its claims by 50%. I'm expecting that
some claims are exaggerated. So, here's my "trans-a-lation"...
quote:
When in high school, she told me, VPW was a very rough, tough, near-hoodlum type of person. She told me he would crash parties he wasn't invited to just for spite. It was a common thing that he would start fights, and usually win. He could win with words and with his athletic prowess. He was a genius, ruffian, jock, bully.
Trans-a-lation:
When in high school, vpw was a bully, a physical showoff, and a
braggart. He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick
to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit.
quote:
To show off for the ladies and intimidate the guys, one of young Vic's tricks would be to blast through New Knoxville at high speeds very loudly on his motorcycle, STANDING on the back seat, arms stretched out crucifixion style.
Trans-a-lation:
One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the
streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention.
quote:
When this young VPW went into the seminary, the townsfolk and country folk thought he was going there as a joke just to beat up the seminarians. This is one reason his ministry
never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his.
Trans-a-lation:
When he entered the seminary, everyone thought it was a joke, since
he was completely lacking in the proper character-it was common
knowledge. He never overcame the impression he had built over years
in that area.
quote:
She then told me stories of his young pastorate and how AGAIN he was a terror to those around him.
Trans-a-lation:
From the time he took over his first pastorate, he wasted little
time in being a control freak and bully AGAIN.
quote:
Remember, he opens up "Christian Family and Sex" with a story of how he was brought up so strict that looking at himself in a mirror naked would be considered sin. It was a medical doctor who challenged him to consider how the human body was awesomely constructed, and that it said so in the Bible.
I consider this an irrelevant comment, but you may disagree.
I include it in the interest of completeness, like the book quotes.
quote:
In Dr's young pastorate he was a terror in legalistic strictness. It's funny how many of us go from one extreme to the other at times. I can relate to this.
Trans-a-lation:
He did his best to maintain a high degree of control over his
pastorate.
quote:
Dr was so strict, she told me...about purging paganism from his church in the 1940's that he sent chills down people's spines if they dared to get Christmasy in December. Christmas trees were totally forbidden in the church building...A few couples founded a secret strategy for dealing with pastor Vic's violent temper...they mounted their Christmas trees ON WHEELS! This way, on Sunday afternoon, if it was their turn to chicken-dinnerize the pastor, they'd simply wheel the tree into the back bedroom.
She said they'd do practice drills to see how fast they could remove all Christmas decoration evidence in case of an unexpected visit from the pastor....
Trans-a-lation:
vpw had a mad-on for what he considered Catholic traditions and pagan
introduced-practices that he never let people just enjoy a normal
holiday like all the other Christians.
quote:
.."Dr went through a BIG change when he started speaking in tongues in the early 1950's...
He really mellowed out and developed a lot of love like Uncle Harry. He went through a
MASSIVE set of changes in those early fifties, and still is changing. He amazes me.
Trans-a-lation:
Through the early 1950's, his conduct and behaviour improved a lot.
It was uncharacteristic of the person he showed himself to be earlier.
quote:
"So does his wife. She has to be a very special kind of person to put up with him the way she does."
Trans-a-lation:
He was a difficult husband to his wife. I'm amazed she put up with
him, with the way he behaved.
quote:
When sexual things popped up a bit in SNS tapes she'd get a little nervous and say
"I wish he wouldn't get that way."...
Trans-a-lation:
This improvement in his behaviour didn't improve his vocabulary in
all the important ways. He still chose to introduce sexual concepts in
SNS teachings, which even his fans admit wasn't a good thing.
quote:
Another team member in the production of PFAL was Uncle Harry. My co-worker told me how he would balance off Dr's rough edges often...One year, at a holiday party Uncle Harry showed up in a Santa Claus suit and handed candy canes out to all the kids, He did this in defiance of Dr's anti-Christmas stance, and helped force a bit of balance into the mix.
Trans-a-lation:
Uncle Harry helped moderate vpw's extreme style and policies.
Uncle Harry let people celebrate Christmas even though vpw was
Reading all this that WW has so eloquently dissected for us explains how VP was able to take over the original guys who were street preachers---St#v# H##fn#r and J*mmy D*pp. With the help of others, he bullied them out of existence.
Recently stated: To me, the corps program was THE BEGINNING OF THE END. Yeah, it could have been a wonderful blessing....if godly agendas were backing it. But wierwille, in his lust for power formed and conformed THE CORPS PROGRAM INTO HIS IMAGE......an image of arrogance, and self-serving lust.
Teaching God and his love in simplicity is how those original street preachers taught and why we all came to TWI. It's also why so many have left.
That record matches the information given to me by a poster in chat who`s mother went to school with vp.
There was a valid REASON why his ministry was never popular in the nk area .....and it WASN`T , as they told us in twi....that because a *prophet is not without honor save his own home*....
Great way to get us to disregard the locals first hand knowledge of the true nature of vp though.
I never went corpse. Gheesh, I was only in twi a couple of years. During my wow year I was told by my interim corpse wow sister that I should "mature in the word" some before attempting corpse. Well, long story short, that life ended before it could mature. And to think for the last nigh on 20 years ago that I thought that I was actually missing something worthwhile. Man! what a crock of b.s!
"I've been talking to these men in California lately. They earn
about $250,000 a year. They are tops in business, in advertising...
One of these men, he's got so much money, but he's going to be a dead man within five years if he doesn't go with God. He's being eaten away by fears and worries. All that money just can't buy peace in the heart.
If it were my choice, I'd go with God." He laughs deep inside, his eyes filling with tears.
quote:
"Love or peace or joy or healing just never hurt anybody. Don't let anybody ever touch the Word. Because it's truth, and that stands whatever happens."
pg-155.
quote:
"You've got to be ready because you're all I've got. If you aren't ready, who is going to run those classes, undershepherd those people, teach others to stand and lead?" The question hangs over us in mid-air. The answer is obvious. God is our strength. We are built-up, encouraged, ready, for God is our strength.
Um, that didn't answer his question....
Anyone who can untangle this sentence of vpw from pg-170, please do so..
quote:
"But I never forget a scripture. I keep certain scriptures in my mind until I have them worked out. Then I drop them out, too. I think of the verses to which I don't have the answer. There's one on my desk now. It's been there for the last six years. It's the problem of the two possessing devils in Mark 8 and 9. But that'll fall into place too.
So he remembers it forever until he's done with it, then he forgets it.
page 171-172, vpw shares an early childhood memory.
quote:
"The next thing I recall vividly happened when I was eight or nine years old. There was a Mission Festival in New Knoxville. I was sitting with my mother. (The men and women sat separately in those days.) There was a guest minister that day, a certain Dr Lohman, and after the sermon-I don't remember much of what he said-we went up to meet him. We shook hands, you know, and he asked me what I wanted to be. I told him, "A man of God like you." That's what I said, but I thought it was just kid's talk. You know how kids talk."
"But I never forget a scripture. I keep certain scriptures in my mind until I have them worked out. Then I drop them out, too. I think of the verses to which I don't have the answer. There's one on my desk now. It's been there for the last six years. It's the problem of the two possessing devils in Mark 8 and 9. But that'll fall into place too.
The insidious "hold it in abeyance" scam at it's genesis!
One of the things that kept me quiet when something wouldn't make sense was the above quote, or something like it: "you don't understand it...well, hold it in abeyance, eventually you'll understand it"
Here Wierwille portrays himself as the humble seeker-after-truth, ready and willing to wait YEARS for answers...if Wierwille can do it, why couldn't we? In reality it was just another trick to avoid giving real answers.
I think "holding it in abeyance" was/is a very good option when one doesn't have an answer to a biblical problem.
I submit that back in the good 'ol days, if one had an answer, and it didn't match twi and/or one couldn't live with twi's answers, one may simply leave if they couldn't live with twi's version, or never get involved in the first place, which describes many.
Agreed Oak, it was a handy dandy dodge taken whenever the more outragious doctrine started raising questions in our mind....or some of the glaring errors in doctrine and practice began to cause doubts.
Dilva, much of the *good* that was found in twi, in truth can be traced back to the street preachers you mentioned.
Good people who`s gifts, work, and flocks were co opted by vp....making himself and his ministry appear to have virtue and integrety that wasn`t his....
I do remember having huge questions about tithing in the '80's.
I wrote letters to headquarters, LCM, limb of NY.
I got a long answer from John Schoenheit of the research dept. and also from limb of NY.
LCM sent his letter to the research dept.
The answer I got from the research dept. didn't satisfy me, really, but the response wasn't "hold it in abeyance", and it wasn't something that I was about to leave twi for.
I could always not tithe and still attend twig, which I did for years.
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penworks
I agree that it is "garbage" insofar that it is propaganda. But I think it does have a certain value: it's a good case study on VPW's sick thinking (and lack thereof) and a red flag about the dangers
A la prochaine
If 'Calling him everynight' wasn't enough..then she visited him every weekend ... wowza That's quite the committed individual to Wierwille. What kind of life did she have? Man oh man...I can hard
A la prochaine
WW,
Very Very funny...and very very true!
Thanks for the chuckle.
:D-->
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WordWolf
Sometimes I throw that stuff in just to see who's paying attention.
:D-->
It's approximately how I see it, however.
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penguin
I guess there is technically more than 2 now---twi website lists 5 bods now. There's the prevailing word in action! Memberships doubled! LOL
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GeorgeStGeorge
I guess with the BOT being the only actual "members," WW's statement is true. Howevr, it's my impression (from the few that I've talked with) that the rank-and-file TWI'ers aren't fanatical. They're carrying out the motions without the emotions.
George
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WordWolf
Hm.
You've probably described the AVERAGE peon more
accurately, George.
I suppose there are a few dedicated fanatic drones,
however. Can't be TOO many because there are too few
people overall.
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WordWolf
Comments, people?
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A la prochaine
Did not VP once teach that sincerity is not a guarantee for truth?
Sheeeshhh...maybe that's one that I should have taken heed to??
-->
You know...that was the stuff that kept me in for so many years. VP would do this display of emotion and I would think ...WOW!
...it must be the REAL thing...he's crying! I never figured it was Hollywood! 
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WordWolf
I'm interrupting this thread with a crosspost from the Archives because it is relevant
to the discussion inasmuch as there's an attempt to piece together vpw's personal history,
especially as it relates to twi.
All of this is from one post, with a few irrelevant digressions snipped out.
And I fixed some punctuation.
You can dig up the originals if you distrust me on that.
(You'll have plenty of keywords for your search.)
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WordWolf
Ok.
Given that this story is not "vetted", I'm going to take this and, in
the attempt to be fair, reduce its claims by 50%. I'm expecting that
some claims are exaggerated. So, here's my "trans-a-lation"...
Trans-a-lation:
When in high school, vpw was a bully, a physical showoff, and a
braggart. He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick
to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit.
Trans-a-lation:
One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the
streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention.
Trans-a-lation:
When he entered the seminary, everyone thought it was a joke, since
he was completely lacking in the proper character-it was common
knowledge. He never overcame the impression he had built over years
in that area.
Trans-a-lation:
From the time he took over his first pastorate, he wasted little
time in being a control freak and bully AGAIN.
I consider this an irrelevant comment, but you may disagree.
I include it in the interest of completeness, like the book quotes.
Trans-a-lation:
He did his best to maintain a high degree of control over his
pastorate.
Trans-a-lation:
vpw had a mad-on for what he considered Catholic traditions and pagan
introduced-practices that he never let people just enjoy a normal
holiday like all the other Christians.
Trans-a-lation:
Through the early 1950's, his conduct and behaviour improved a lot.
It was uncharacteristic of the person he showed himself to be earlier.
Trans-a-lation:
He was a difficult husband to his wife. I'm amazed she put up with
him, with the way he behaved.
Trans-a-lation:
This improvement in his behaviour didn't improve his vocabulary in
all the important ways. He still chose to introduce sexual concepts in
SNS teachings, which even his fans admit wasn't a good thing.
Trans-a-lation:
Uncle Harry helped moderate vpw's extreme style and policies.
Uncle Harry let people celebrate Christmas even though vpw was
specifically against it.
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WordWolf
And here's my uninterrupted "trans-a-lation" all together.
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Dilva
Reading all this that WW has so eloquently dissected for us explains how VP was able to take over the original guys who were street preachers---St#v# H##fn#r and J*mmy D*pp. With the help of others, he bullied them out of existence.
Recently stated: To me, the corps program was THE BEGINNING OF THE END. Yeah, it could have been a wonderful blessing....if godly agendas were backing it. But wierwille, in his lust for power formed and conformed THE CORPS PROGRAM INTO HIS IMAGE......an image of arrogance, and self-serving lust.
Teaching God and his love in simplicity is how those original street preachers taught and why we all came to TWI. It's also why so many have left.
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Ham
And to think to this day, some people still worship the miserable SOB..
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rascal
That record matches the information given to me by a poster in chat who`s mother went to school with vp.
There was a valid REASON why his ministry was never popular in the nk area .....and it WASN`T , as they told us in twi....that because a *prophet is not without honor save his own home*....
Great way to get us to disregard the locals first hand knowledge of the true nature of vp though.
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Ham
Neither is a self-serving, egotistical bully with delusions of grandeur..
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def59
Knowing his character and his heart, how can we say "he taught me the Word?"
The sermon of his life, his testimony, if you will, should tell us of how far from the mark he was and how far we allowed him to take us.
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oldiesman
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Brother Speed
I never went corpse. Gheesh, I was only in twi a couple of years. During my wow year I was told by my interim corpse wow sister that I should "mature in the word" some before attempting corpse. Well, long story short, that life ended before it could mature. And to think for the last nigh on 20 years ago that I thought that I was actually missing something worthwhile. Man! what a crock of b.s!
p.s. b.s. does not mean brother speed.
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A la prochaine
WW,
My synopsis:
MUCHO ATTENTION SEEKING BEHAVIOUR OF VP'S PART
MUCHO 'LOOK AT ME' THINKING.
-->
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WordWolf
Folks?
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Oakspear
One of the things that kept me quiet when something wouldn't make sense was the above quote, or something like it: "you don't understand it...well, hold it in abeyance, eventually you'll understand it"
Here Wierwille portrays himself as the humble seeker-after-truth, ready and willing to wait YEARS for answers...if Wierwille can do it, why couldn't we? In reality it was just another trick to avoid giving real answers.
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oldiesman
I think "holding it in abeyance" was/is a very good option when one doesn't have an answer to a biblical problem.
I submit that back in the good 'ol days, if one had an answer, and it didn't match twi and/or one couldn't live with twi's answers, one may simply leave if they couldn't live with twi's version, or never get involved in the first place, which describes many.
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rascal
Agreed Oak, it was a handy dandy dodge taken whenever the more outragious doctrine started raising questions in our mind....or some of the glaring errors in doctrine and practice began to cause doubts.
Dilva, much of the *good* that was found in twi, in truth can be traced back to the street preachers you mentioned.
Good people who`s gifts, work, and flocks were co opted by vp....making himself and his ministry appear to have virtue and integrety that wasn`t his....
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Ham
"Hold it in abeyance"
My opinion- "YOUR QUESTION IS REALLY NOT THAT IMPORTANT. Its not life or death or anything is it? We're far too busy 'working' on other stuff.."
In other words, "don't bother me, kid".
"Why did you omit 'ye think' in John 5:39. It is in every greek and aramaic text"
"Aw, hold it in abeyance.."
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oldiesman
I do remember having huge questions about tithing in the '80's.
I wrote letters to headquarters, LCM, limb of NY.
I got a long answer from John Schoenheit of the research dept. and also from limb of NY.
LCM sent his letter to the research dept.
The answer I got from the research dept. didn't satisfy me, really, but the response wasn't "hold it in abeyance", and it wasn't something that I was about to leave twi for.
I could always not tithe and still attend twig, which I did for years.
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