It is during the teenage and young adult years that a human being must break out of that level and into the arena of formal cognitive operations by being able to formulate their own (truly their own) opinions and values, based solely upon reason and not repetition.
And conversely, it is the parents duty to accept such.
I agree with RC. I am still friends many young (18-25 years old) standing believers. I was much older than these kids but still keep in touch (or rather they keep in touch with me). Many of them are chomping at the bits to get in and serve like their parents. Here is the question I pose as part of this thread (my fist post I might add). If there is a surge of youth into twi and this generation makes loving changes as many former leadership go the way of the dodo, how many of us here would change our thinking of twi? Can we really blame sons and daughters for their parents past mistakes? Seriously now. I know it sounds hard to think about but what if Dr. Wierwille was right when he taught that it would be the grandsons and drandaughters taking it to the next level. I left with my parents and I sometimes really wish I was over eighteen back then so I could have chosen to stay. Even through the rough times. These kids are so tight knit and their outreach is incredible on their college areas.
Ricky, welcome to GSC. Belle will be along with a danish(personally, I prefer Swedes) and Raf will bring the coffee. Do you like decaf or one of those international flavors? For the most part, we are pretty congenial
I hate to bring out my pin to pop your balloon, but hold still, this will only hurt a little, and don't take it personally...
Trying to rescue TWI from itself is an impossible task. SOOoooooo many of us spent our entire youths and fortunes trying to "Make loving changes" in TWI and it was not possible. Feeding more youth to the monster will neither tame nor kill it.
It's not just the "former leadership" that is the problem. Just because an old leader "goes the way of the dodo" doesn't mean the atmosphere and habits they deeply instilled in the organization will. When VPW died, his errors did not die with him. His legacy lived on as molestations and adultery continued at every level. Martindale being hustled off grounds did not cause lies and adultery and rape to cease within TWI. The coverups and lies continue to this day and are perpetuated by a machine out of control. The internal culture of that organization is so corrupt that anyone who ventures inside TWI with the naieve intent to convert it is consumed by it. They are either assimilated or spat out.
And to what "next level" could anyone "take" TWI? If these kids really are "chomping at the bits" to "get in there and serve like their parents," they will be twice the children of hell their parents are now. Especially if they have swallowed The Way International's definition of "love," and "service."
The Word says that if a ruler hearkens to lies, all his advisors are evil. ALL of them. And if they are evil, they ALL need to be scrapped. From the top all the way down. The infrastructure is so rotten that to try to build upon it is a waste of time.
You pose a very interesting question about changing our thinking concerning twi.
I guess I would have to see how much of the poison of the older generation rubbed off on the younger generation.
I would wonder if the younger generation escape unscathed from the legalism, the arrogance, the cruelty with which their parents and the people who left were treated?
Having been involved in twi all of their lives...will they have a healthy understanding of true spirituality of christianity?
Would apologies and forgiveness be offered? Would invitations to return with no strings attatched be extended? How about an attempt at making amends? These are steps that a true christian brother or sister would attempt.
This would be a big step in changing my view of what twi is. If the youth intend to just follow the same path of arrogance and hard hearted treatment of the prior generation...I`d have to say that there would be little difference ...just a shiney new wrapper covering the same old smelly turd.
I guess it will depend entirely upon the youth of twi themselves.
As far as you yourself staying...your parents saved you a great deal of suffering by getting you out of that environment. Being young, you were probably shielded by your parents from a great deal ....trust me when I say many of us fought with every ounce of our being, spent decades trying to make twi a better place....tens of thousands of us with millions of hours of prayers, of selfless physical service, millions in money, every week we ran classes, fellowships completely sold out doulos`s for Christ...Dog soldiers staked to the ground...unmovable...........
We spent our youth, from our teens and twenties with motives as pure as those of todays youth....with hearts full of earnest excitement and determination.....I do not know how a few hundred could alter the course that the leaders of twi have charted....any better
I hate to see yet another generation hood winked into decades of service in earnest belief that they can effect change....only to be cast aside when their usefullness is exhausted or their personal integrity doesn`t allow them to participate in what is harmfull.
I think that most still left at this point don't even believe there's a problem to fix. Most that I've presented any info two refuse to believe and are content to stay.
And as the numbers grow smaller, there's even LESS youth around. You certainly don't see too many young, excited people coming around like in the 60s and 70s (or really, ANY other time in TWI). I'm in California, and it seems like the limb weekend's grow smaller each year that I've been here. I hadn't seen a new young person in a long time at any of the fellowships in our branch (the Limb branch).
I wish any of the zealous youth that you speak of would wise up and put their enthusiasm and talents to work for them in schools, careers, or another church. Almost ANYthing else would be more beneficial to them.
I am all for optimistic ideals. But to salvage TWI would mean drastic changes from the top down as Catcup alluded to.
In my opinion, to start with they would need to close TWI and reopen it under a new name with new (younger) leadership that is not BORING. Like it or not, their reputation as The Way appears to be ruined FOREVER all over the Internet and therefore all over the world. That can not be undone.
Secondly they would need a new approach as to what they would do for people and what they would offer. It can't include any of the problematic docrtrinal errors of the past, such as the enormous errors in WAP and PFAL. Why does it need to be crusty old biblical research and classes in the first place? I fall asleep thinking about greek and aramaic and figures of speech and all the other so called important stuff.
Get rid of it all. Especially that bland, green non-interactive web "place hoder" they call a site. Start something totally new and open to the public. Do not let "old timers" anywher near the decision making process. And if anyone memorizes or reads their teachings or sharings as the current president does put them out to pasture where they belong. Let them read to elderly seniors in rest homes where it might do some good.
Ha, ha, ha, ha. I laugh knowing that will never happen in a million years.
Honestly it would be easier and perhaps more successful to just start your own group. For example, CFF probably by now has as almost many loosly based "followers" after only 5 years than TWI has after 50 plus years.
Other churches have tens of thousands after only a short time. It is because they are open and available to the public in service. They are dynamic and spiritually alive. Not just a bunch of old, boring middle aged bible quoters who sit on their butts studying too much.
Some of us interacted with a few of TWI's youth at the "Family Tables" website before we were shut out. I for one was not impressed. For a group of allegedly college educated people, their thinking skills were not at all in evidence.
All these young people are "chomping at the bit"? Who's stopping them? Want to do something for God? Go do it!
Some of us interacted with a few of TWI's youth at the "Family Tables" website before we were shut out. I for one was not impressed. For a group of allegedly college educated people, their thinking skills were not at all in evidence.
All these young people are "chomping at the bit"? Who's stopping them? Want to do something for God? Go do it!
Oak -- I never got that impression about them being *college educated*.
I figured they were all kids, with a starry-eyed future (twi) in front of them. :(
Here is the question I pose as part of this thread (my first post I might add). If there is a surge of youth into twi and this generation makes loving changes as many former leadership go the way of the dodo, how many of us here would change our thinking of twi?
Welcome to GreaseSpot, Rick.
May I say, it will never happen (a surge of youth that is). Those at the top, will be loathe to relinquish power to those who might actually bring *truth* to what is now nothing more than a 3rd rate religion that they decry on their SNS tapes.
Twi has descended to that depth, and make no mistake about it, they will not be resurrected anytime soon, because they have beeen in the *arm-chair of the Lord* for so long, they see no reason to change.
Twi has become all that they have ever preached against, plain and simple. They are now nothing more than another denomination, with declining numbers, and spewing hatred against all who choose to think differently.
I got in back in 1975, and now 30 years later -- I can see they weren't interested in truth, even back then (although I do agree with some of the teachings of pfal -- if not all of them).
It's a closed co-orperation. They don't want your input, mine, or the youth of today. They want the same old same old,.
And if something new is offered (like the truth), it will be ignored.
Hey thanks for all the great replies! To tell you the truth I never thought it would of provoked so much thought. Thank you! I sat on the sidleines for some years now and it feels good to say hi. I really have enjoyed alot of your posts during my years on the sidelines. people like Belle and oldiesman... have really made me want to find out more. My reason for my reply is that many of us believe that one time twi presented a word that was living and real. Many of us have great memories of seeing the word for what it was and deep down in the depths of some of our hearts we know that we have seen things that were unmistakenly God's truth. Along with these feelings many of us have tremendous disgust and bruised hearts for the lack of truth and love that followed these memories and experiances. I know that it is totally justified. But after my I left with my parents many of the youth I grew up with still tried to stay in contact with me (some against their parents wishes during our college years). I was totally confused about this for years because their parents would have nothing to do with my parents. They would talk about everything with me too. I would ask about martidale and you would be suprised on how perceptive these kids are. Those near the top are privy to some wildly private information. I have read on how people who ask innies about these topics get the reply of "well twi is really different now." I have to say I have never got this response. They answer it fully with understanding on the horrible implications these events caused people. And I have to disagree that these youth do not have any people skills. Some of them are very dynamic and smart cookies. Most TWI kids do go off to college. I hate to be the spreader of rumors but last year one corps kid told me that many are planning a mass group entry to the corp. I guess they are developing little havens of youth fellowships around college campuses and then planning this. I just dont know what they are waiting for. I told this individual "Ill believe it when I see it." But I have to tell I kind of want to see it. Yes it is true that some of the youth get there eighteen legs and get out and go never to come back. But There are most who still go to fellowship and tithe that hard earned money even during the poor college years. I asked one two years ago why she has not chosen to leave and this was her response that cut me to the heart. I said "don't you think you could find what your looking for through another church." She replied " If you can find me a church that teaches Jesus Christ is not God, That the dead are dead, How to recieve the holy spirit into manifestation, all nine manifestations in detail, pratical applicaton of beleiving equeals recieving and all of the ground breaking research we have done plus more, come tell me because I want to be apart of it." I didn't have a respone I wish I did.
Thanks again everbody you are all so great
oh ya, one thing they do constantly talk about is changing all the dry crappy teachings they here at the service. They hate how Rosalie makes the teachers so bland in delievery. they hate the over use of phrases like "how tremendous, your tremndous, for your exhortation and comfort." One told me "Dr. Wierwille would be rolling over in his grave if he herd people reading their teachings at the sns." Ha! I dont know about you but I had to agree.
I have fresh homemade raspberry danishes dusted with confectioners sugar today. Would you care for one? I also have mint juleps handy, but I'll need to check your ID before I can serve you one of those. ;)
Thank you for the information on the young guns of TWI. I'm happy to hear that they are motivated and not oblivious to the problems with TWI. I am pretty confident, however, that they will be "disappointed in their expectations."
Ya know how some people move into a house and they don't do any landscaping, they chain smoke inside, fry lots of foods, never fix the leaky faucets or running toilet, let the animals run wild in the house and never clean up after them? They have termites and bugs move in, but don't call an exterminator... Cat spray, smoke, fried foods, trash, dog poop, mold, rotten drywall, peeling wallpaper, filthy carpet, scratched and ruined linoleum, windows so dirty you can hardly see out of and dead trees, plants and nothing but weeds outside....
That's what TWI has become. The only way those good-hearted kids will be able to make a difference is to tear the whole thing down and start from scratch. It's really a seemingly impossible task given all the bad publicity and horror stories you can find about TWI all over the internet. The people inside TWI may be able to cover it up, ignore it and pretend it never happened, but outside TWI - people know, people will know and people will avoid it regardless of the advertisement and persuasive tactics used by these young guns. ESPECIALLY with many of the same names in authority.
These young guns seem to dismiss the decptive practices of VPW and his plagarism. They also seem to take lock, stock and barrel everything that was taught to them as being correct, accurate and truly God breathed revelation. The poor gal that you talked to considers all those things THE most important aspects of life - the Word and being a "believer" or Christian.... She's right - most churches don't. They focus more on the teachings of Jesus and the "turn the other cheek", "do good unto ALL men", "love the unloveable", "help your fellow man", "love", "peace", "grace" and other things that TWI hardly if ever teaches. There ARE places that teach and believe those things - Especially CFF, CES and some of the off-shoots. There are other churches who teach more accurately than TWI and, therefore, do NOT teach some of the things TWI teaches. There are churches who have small home fellowships, who operate manifestations - even if it's not entirely like TWI... There's actually a LOT of options out there, but if one is going to be close-minded and defensive about TWI, then they aren't going to see the beauty and peacefulness and grace that those places offer. :)
I'm glad you're here! Please, enjoy the danish and I look forward to reading more from you.
all of the ground breaking research we have done plus more, come tell me because I want to be apart of it." I didn't have a respone I wish I did.
Sorry...there has been NO ground-breaking research. None - the research methods are seriously flawed...and as college kids, that should be VERY apparent because one of the outcomes of any college education is an understanding of what research is.
I wish there would be a study of how many wayfer kids go to college. I am sure it would be far below any national averages. Just doesn't happen. A few, but not many.
Mostly only those kids of leadership, TC. The average Joe Believer can't afford it and can't take out a loan to pay for it. ;)
Ricky, have you read the Blue Book study and the PFAL Study published here? These men and women have done a marvelous job of dissecting the teachings and showing where there are blatant errors. Would the young guns care about all that? What if you could show that gal where TWI teaches so much doctrinal and practical error? Would it make a difference to her?
I'm not trying to be a sh1t, I'm genuinely and sincerely asking.
They focus more on the teachings of Jesus and the "turn the other cheek", "do good unto ALL men", "love the unloveable", "help your fellow man", "love", "peace", "grace" and other things that TWI hardly if ever teaches. There ARE places that teach and believe those things - Especially CFF, CES and some of the off-shoots.
Belle, I had no idea you thought this way about the offshoots. We agree on this point.
There are other churches who teach more accurately than TWI and, therefore, do NOT teach some of the things TWI teaches.
Like the offshoots? I think they've eaten the fish, and spit out the bones. :)
You know, I really would like to see some of the young people who truly think for themselves and want to make a difference get in there and actually make it right.
But I don't think they've thought through exactly what they would have to do in order to do that, and what the consequences would be. But that thought process is typical of youth and concrete operations. So I'm not surprised they have stars in their eyes.
If everything truly WAS made right, here is an approximation of the scenario that would have to occur:
Notifications would go out from the Board of Trustees and or Directors via the Sunday teaching service, the internet, and in written form to anyone living who has ever been involved in The Way International.
Plainly laid out would be admissions of guilt regarding the following:
* The bald plagiarism and appropriation by fraud of other men and women's hard worked material in scripture and other literature, poetry, music, artwork and dance.
* Sexual misconduct at every level of leadership. ALL names are named.
* Fraud, racketeering, and misappropriation of contributed funds
* Coverups of affairs (plural), rapes (plural), child and spousal abuses (plural), molestations (plural) and circumstances surrounding suicides (plural) and other mysterious deaths
* Defamations of character of persons both living and dead
* Property theft by way of deception
* Threats and coersion
You get it. I could go on and on. I think Jkboehme has already left a huge list on this site of indefensible actions to which TWI needs to admit in order to truly come clean. Heck, we here could compile an entire list longer than Luther's Ninety Five Theses and nail them to the door of the Word Over The World Auditorium as a challenge, but they will continue to go on unanswered. Why?
Because in order to "make it right," The Way International would not only have to admit to the evil they have committed against countless people, but they would have to also make reparations to those whom they have wronged, including returning every red cent they ever defrauded from those of us who truly believed we were donating money to honest and moral upright people.
I'd wager to say no one here would have given TWI a plug nickle in order for it to be spent on Dayton hotel rooms for menage a trois and $1500 suits to clothe men and women who lied and deceived and destroyed lives only to then covered it up.
To "make it right" TWI would not only have to admit their guilt and exhonerate those they defamed. They would have to make reparations to everyone they have ever wronged and they cannot afford to do it without selling off every last asset they own.
In order for The Way International to "make it right," they would have nothing left. That's why they spend so much on lawyers. If they admit it once, it opens the door for their total financial devastation.
So, yeah, I'd like to see an entire crew of young TWI kids go and take control of the place, liquidate the assets to those who were wronged, and then shut the place down. It's the kindest, best thing they could possibly do.
Then they could start from scratch elsewhere, with their youth, and their idealism, do their own independent research, and not have their futures and their childrens' futures mortgaged to an organization that will be sure to suck them dry and then spit out their useless carcasses when they are old and defenseless.
Hello folks. In picking around these fine fixings I found a few fragments that caught my eye, although the entire plate of postings here are all worthy of slow, savoring. If I may quote a few passages and comment:
There is a small group of young Way folks who did make it through to college and are very happy
But i guess the main goal is to bring about changes, like bringing the Rock back to the Way, once they obtain positions of power themselves. But this group is pretty small, and their hopes are set very high.
I was in the Way from late 60's to late 80's. Bringing back the Rock before the Way Nash gets healthy is putting the cart before the horse. Baby steps, baby steps. Retire out the Old Bloods first, and get some sense of solid direction first, and proceed building some honor and dignity back into it. Then party. But I have to say I find it both quaint and precious in an odd sort of way that there's a younger generation of Wayfers out there interested in rebuilding the Way. It seems like a strange undertaking to me. Why not do something new, something that's your own, something that doesn't need fixing, firing of fussing with? That's as right as you can make it right from the start?
Like i said, most of this group has been in their whole life. Leaving The Way is a huge task, when you have no support system outside of The Way. That is why they stay sooo connected through the Internet and classes. Dallas was THE place to be, to stay connected and hang out with Way friends.
The tendency of Wayfers to move back and forth and all around the country to be near a few friends of like thinking has always fascinated me. Can't people carry on where they are and build a life of their own? Is it always necessary to be with The Group to have a fully realized identity? Dunno. All I can say is do it while you're young.
If there is a surge of youth into twi and this generation makes loving changes as many former leadership go the way of the dodo, how many of us here would change our thinking of twi? Can we really blame sons and daughters for their parents past mistakes? Seriously now. I know it sounds hard to think about but what if Dr. Wierwille was right when he taught that it would be the grandsons and drandaughters taking it to the next level.
I wouldn't change my thinking on the Way that was my own experience, due to what someone did today. The past is what it was. If The Way became a reasonable home for Christian fellowship and worship and a person didn't have to worry about getting messed with 24 hours a day I guess that would be fine for anyone interested in checking it out today.
I have to say I'm quite proud of my children, both in their early 20's. They don't know a Way from a Weigh. But they have truly done us proud. My personal goal in raising them was to build honesty, trust, and a giving heart as their examples. They exemplify those qualities in ways that make me cry at times. They don't need a concordance to find out if they're doing the right thing, or notes from someone's latest teaching. They're living what I call the Real Deal. They won't lie to you, they won't BS you and they'll help you if you need it. They know God is on their side and that Jesus Christ is with them. My hope was to move our side of the gene pool ahead a few steps at least. They're Leap Froggers.
If you can find me a church that teaches Jesus Christ is not God, That the dead are dead, How to recieve the holy spirit into manifestation, all nine manifestations in detail, pratical applicaton of beleiving equeals recieving and all of the ground breaking research we have done plus more, come tell me because I want to be apart of it." I didn't have a respone I wish I did.
How about a church that values integrity, honesty and hard work, that puts the Word in action? That doesn't just teach a good game, but actually gets sweaty playing one?
I think it's good to remember that if believing does equal receiving as the Way teaches, you have a perfectly clear accounting for why it is the way it is today and the way it will be tomorrow. Don't blame those who left 20 years ago for the way it is today, there's been ample time to make it right if that's what was going to happen. Look to the people that are there now to know why it is the way it is today.
So far, the believing action of those who are left hasn't produced much of anything I've heard about that's noteworthy. My expectations are much higher today. Talk is cheap and the Way's big on talk. If anyone can produce any action, I'd say they're at least on the right track.
I asked one two years ago why she has not chosen to leave and this was her response that cut me to the heart. I said "don't you think you could find what your looking for through another church." She replied " If you can find me a church that teaches Jesus Christ is not God, That the dead are dead, How to recieve the holy spirit into manifestation, all nine manifestations in detail, pratical applicaton of beleiving equeals recieving and all of the ground breaking research we have done plus more, come tell me because I want to be apart of it." I didn't have a respone I wish I did.
I never had a response either, back when I was "in", but one response would be that several of the offshoots teach exactly what Wierwille taught back in the good ol' days, but without the later abuse.
Secondly, how would someone know whether or not there are churches who taught those things without any investigation. The variety of churches and other religious groups is staggering.
Thirdly the "groundbreaking research" is largely either plagairized or otherwise adapted from other sources, hardly unique.
Finally, most people, while involved in TWI, never take a hard critical look at the research and doctrines except through "Way-colored glasses". Very few people have ever taken the time to determine whether or not what TWI was actually true.
I think it's good to remember that if believing does equal receiving as the Way teaches, you have a perfectly clear accounting for why it is the way it is today and the way it will be tomorrow. Don't blame those who left 20 years ago for the way it is today, there's been ample time to make it right if that's what was going to happen. Look to the people that are there now to know why it is the way it is today.
All very good points, Socks.
But seriously, younguns...
TWI is not the only game out there. Don't let that lie that TWI continually promulgates cut you to the heart and make you feel hopelessly isolated when you consider trying to find a place to fellowship with God and the people He loves. That is the entire intent and design of the lie that "There's no one else out there with the rightly divided Word."
Give God more credit as the omniscient power that He is, to not have limited Himself to a cornfield cult in bumf#ck Ohio in order to "reach the world with the Word."
There are numerous churches and organizations out there that God probably finds it much easier to work with than a handful of narrow-minded, egotistical, pretentious pr1cks. Like Socks said, look for those who value integrity, honesty, hard work, and have true compassion for their fellow man. There are a gajillion of them out there. Take your pick.
The more I tell people we have left, the more I hear this repeated...........
"What else is there, if you find it let me know?" OR "Be the change, why won't you stay and fight?"
Everyone still "IN" knows that it is a little bad for one reason or another, not bad enoughto their "way colored eyes" to risk "not finding anything EXACTLY LIKE IT", or not "giving it their best shot".
It isn't until they put the whole TWI experience into the "microscope of truth" (past/present research) that they will begin to see that not all they "believe true" is, and that staying to fight for it , well, most likely is FUTILE!
They won't GOOGLE -the way intnl'
Heck,they google a five dollar trinket to see if it's a rip off or not, but NOT their SPIRITUAL LIFE uh uh no way hozay!
I believe twi can be reformed from within, just like the Roman Catholics did it with their church.
It's possible. And you can start off simple.
Perhaps you might want to go on a crusade of sorts, a mission ... possibly be the champion of a cause that has been extremely distressing to lots of us ex-twi folks, and that is, the adultery issue.
Fight for it to be taught accurately according to the word...
Let it be known that twi needs to teach this issue accurately and honestly.
Lots of the hurt experienced by ex-twi folks came from that one issue alone, and so if twi keeps teaching erroneous doctrines in that category, folks will continue to get hurt, especially new folks.
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dmiller
And conversely, it is the parents duty to accept such.
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rickyg
I agree with RC. I am still friends many young (18-25 years old) standing believers. I was much older than these kids but still keep in touch (or rather they keep in touch with me). Many of them are chomping at the bits to get in and serve like their parents. Here is the question I pose as part of this thread (my fist post I might add). If there is a surge of youth into twi and this generation makes loving changes as many former leadership go the way of the dodo, how many of us here would change our thinking of twi? Can we really blame sons and daughters for their parents past mistakes? Seriously now. I know it sounds hard to think about but what if Dr. Wierwille was right when he taught that it would be the grandsons and drandaughters taking it to the next level. I left with my parents and I sometimes really wish I was over eighteen back then so I could have chosen to stay. Even through the rough times. These kids are so tight knit and their outreach is incredible on their college areas.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ricky, welcome to GSC. Belle will be along with a danish(personally, I prefer Swedes) and Raf will bring the coffee. Do you like decaf or one of those international flavors? For the most part, we are pretty congenial
and check out the forums and archieves.
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Catcup
Welcome rickyg
I hate to bring out my pin to pop your balloon, but hold still, this will only hurt a little, and don't take it personally...
Trying to rescue TWI from itself is an impossible task. SOOoooooo many of us spent our entire youths and fortunes trying to "Make loving changes" in TWI and it was not possible. Feeding more youth to the monster will neither tame nor kill it.
It's not just the "former leadership" that is the problem. Just because an old leader "goes the way of the dodo" doesn't mean the atmosphere and habits they deeply instilled in the organization will. When VPW died, his errors did not die with him. His legacy lived on as molestations and adultery continued at every level. Martindale being hustled off grounds did not cause lies and adultery and rape to cease within TWI. The coverups and lies continue to this day and are perpetuated by a machine out of control. The internal culture of that organization is so corrupt that anyone who ventures inside TWI with the naieve intent to convert it is consumed by it. They are either assimilated or spat out.
And to what "next level" could anyone "take" TWI? If these kids really are "chomping at the bits" to "get in there and serve like their parents," they will be twice the children of hell their parents are now. Especially if they have swallowed The Way International's definition of "love," and "service."
The Word says that if a ruler hearkens to lies, all his advisors are evil. ALL of them. And if they are evil, they ALL need to be scrapped. From the top all the way down. The infrastructure is so rotten that to try to build upon it is a waste of time.
Remember that children's song?
The wise man built his house upon a rock.
TWI at best is shifting sand. Quicksand.
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rascal
Welcome Ricky, great first post!
You pose a very interesting question about changing our thinking concerning twi.
I guess I would have to see how much of the poison of the older generation rubbed off on the younger generation.
I would wonder if the younger generation escape unscathed from the legalism, the arrogance, the cruelty with which their parents and the people who left were treated?
Having been involved in twi all of their lives...will they have a healthy understanding of true spirituality of christianity?
Would apologies and forgiveness be offered? Would invitations to return with no strings attatched be extended? How about an attempt at making amends? These are steps that a true christian brother or sister would attempt.
This would be a big step in changing my view of what twi is. If the youth intend to just follow the same path of arrogance and hard hearted treatment of the prior generation...I`d have to say that there would be little difference ...just a shiney new wrapper covering the same old smelly turd.
I guess it will depend entirely upon the youth of twi themselves.
As far as you yourself staying...your parents saved you a great deal of suffering by getting you out of that environment. Being young, you were probably shielded by your parents from a great deal ....trust me when I say many of us fought with every ounce of our being, spent decades trying to make twi a better place....tens of thousands of us with millions of hours of prayers, of selfless physical service, millions in money, every week we ran classes, fellowships completely sold out doulos`s for Christ...Dog soldiers staked to the ground...unmovable...........
We spent our youth, from our teens and twenties with motives as pure as those of todays youth....with hearts full of earnest excitement and determination.....I do not know how a few hundred could alter the course that the leaders of twi have charted....any better
I hate to see yet another generation hood winked into decades of service in earnest belief that they can effect change....only to be cast aside when their usefullness is exhausted or their personal integrity doesn`t allow them to participate in what is harmfull.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
rick
welcome to gs
please stay around and learn
i cannot offer coffee, but would a nice glass of wine work?
rick as far as this topic goes.
my feelings go this way...when you plant squash you get squash
and that is unfortunatly what twi planted
it is so sad because i am am sure there are many wonderful god loving people there
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Nato
I think that most still left at this point don't even believe there's a problem to fix. Most that I've presented any info two refuse to believe and are content to stay.
And as the numbers grow smaller, there's even LESS youth around. You certainly don't see too many young, excited people coming around like in the 60s and 70s (or really, ANY other time in TWI). I'm in California, and it seems like the limb weekend's grow smaller each year that I've been here. I hadn't seen a new young person in a long time at any of the fellowships in our branch (the Limb branch).
I wish any of the zealous youth that you speak of would wise up and put their enthusiasm and talents to work for them in schools, careers, or another church. Almost ANYthing else would be more beneficial to them.
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igotout
I am all for optimistic ideals. But to salvage TWI would mean drastic changes from the top down as Catcup alluded to.
In my opinion, to start with they would need to close TWI and reopen it under a new name with new (younger) leadership that is not BORING. Like it or not, their reputation as The Way appears to be ruined FOREVER all over the Internet and therefore all over the world. That can not be undone.
Secondly they would need a new approach as to what they would do for people and what they would offer. It can't include any of the problematic docrtrinal errors of the past, such as the enormous errors in WAP and PFAL. Why does it need to be crusty old biblical research and classes in the first place? I fall asleep thinking about greek and aramaic and figures of speech and all the other so called important stuff.
Get rid of it all. Especially that bland, green non-interactive web "place hoder" they call a site. Start something totally new and open to the public. Do not let "old timers" anywher near the decision making process. And if anyone memorizes or reads their teachings or sharings as the current president does put them out to pasture where they belong. Let them read to elderly seniors in rest homes where it might do some good.
Ha, ha, ha, ha. I laugh knowing that will never happen in a million years.
Honestly it would be easier and perhaps more successful to just start your own group. For example, CFF probably by now has as almost many loosly based "followers" after only 5 years than TWI has after 50 plus years.
Other churches have tens of thousands after only a short time. It is because they are open and available to the public in service. They are dynamic and spiritually alive. Not just a bunch of old, boring middle aged bible quoters who sit on their butts studying too much.
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Oakspear
Some of us interacted with a few of TWI's youth at the "Family Tables" website before we were shut out. I for one was not impressed. For a group of allegedly college educated people, their thinking skills were not at all in evidence.
All these young people are "chomping at the bit"? Who's stopping them? Want to do something for God? Go do it!
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dmiller
Oak -- I never got that impression about them being *college educated*.
I figured they were all kids, with a starry-eyed future (twi) in front of them. :(
David
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dmiller
Welcome to GreaseSpot, Rick.
May I say, it will never happen (a surge of youth that is). Those at the top, will be loathe to relinquish power to those who might actually bring *truth* to what is now nothing more than a 3rd rate religion that they decry on their SNS tapes.
Twi has descended to that depth, and make no mistake about it, they will not be resurrected anytime soon, because they have beeen in the *arm-chair of the Lord* for so long, they see no reason to change.
Twi has become all that they have ever preached against, plain and simple. They are now nothing more than another denomination, with declining numbers, and spewing hatred against all who choose to think differently.
I got in back in 1975, and now 30 years later -- I can see they weren't interested in truth, even back then (although I do agree with some of the teachings of pfal -- if not all of them).
It's a closed co-orperation. They don't want your input, mine, or the youth of today. They want the same old same old,.
And if something new is offered (like the truth), it will be ignored.
:(
David
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oldiesman
Come back little Ricky, come back... :D
I wish more folks like Ricky would come here and share.
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rickyg
Hey thanks for all the great replies! To tell you the truth I never thought it would of provoked so much thought. Thank you! I sat on the sidleines for some years now and it feels good to say hi. I really have enjoyed alot of your posts during my years on the sidelines. people like Belle and oldiesman... have really made me want to find out more. My reason for my reply is that many of us believe that one time twi presented a word that was living and real. Many of us have great memories of seeing the word for what it was and deep down in the depths of some of our hearts we know that we have seen things that were unmistakenly God's truth. Along with these feelings many of us have tremendous disgust and bruised hearts for the lack of truth and love that followed these memories and experiances. I know that it is totally justified. But after my I left with my parents many of the youth I grew up with still tried to stay in contact with me (some against their parents wishes during our college years). I was totally confused about this for years because their parents would have nothing to do with my parents. They would talk about everything with me too. I would ask about martidale and you would be suprised on how perceptive these kids are. Those near the top are privy to some wildly private information. I have read on how people who ask innies about these topics get the reply of "well twi is really different now." I have to say I have never got this response. They answer it fully with understanding on the horrible implications these events caused people. And I have to disagree that these youth do not have any people skills. Some of them are very dynamic and smart cookies. Most TWI kids do go off to college. I hate to be the spreader of rumors but last year one corps kid told me that many are planning a mass group entry to the corp. I guess they are developing little havens of youth fellowships around college campuses and then planning this. I just dont know what they are waiting for. I told this individual "Ill believe it when I see it." But I have to tell I kind of want to see it. Yes it is true that some of the youth get there eighteen legs and get out and go never to come back. But There are most who still go to fellowship and tithe that hard earned money even during the poor college years. I asked one two years ago why she has not chosen to leave and this was her response that cut me to the heart. I said "don't you think you could find what your looking for through another church." She replied " If you can find me a church that teaches Jesus Christ is not God, That the dead are dead, How to recieve the holy spirit into manifestation, all nine manifestations in detail, pratical applicaton of beleiving equeals recieving and all of the ground breaking research we have done plus more, come tell me because I want to be apart of it." I didn't have a respone I wish I did.
Thanks again everbody you are all so great
oh ya, one thing they do constantly talk about is changing all the dry crappy teachings they here at the service. They hate how Rosalie makes the teachers so bland in delievery. they hate the over use of phrases like "how tremendous, your tremndous, for your exhortation and comfort." One told me "Dr. Wierwille would be rolling over in his grave if he herd people reading their teachings at the sns." Ha! I dont know about you but I had to agree.
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Belle
Welcome, RickyG!
I have fresh homemade raspberry danishes dusted with confectioners sugar today. Would you care for one? I also have mint juleps handy, but I'll need to check your ID before I can serve you one of those. ;)
Thank you for the information on the young guns of TWI. I'm happy to hear that they are motivated and not oblivious to the problems with TWI. I am pretty confident, however, that they will be "disappointed in their expectations."
Ya know how some people move into a house and they don't do any landscaping, they chain smoke inside, fry lots of foods, never fix the leaky faucets or running toilet, let the animals run wild in the house and never clean up after them? They have termites and bugs move in, but don't call an exterminator... Cat spray, smoke, fried foods, trash, dog poop, mold, rotten drywall, peeling wallpaper, filthy carpet, scratched and ruined linoleum, windows so dirty you can hardly see out of and dead trees, plants and nothing but weeds outside....
That's what TWI has become. The only way those good-hearted kids will be able to make a difference is to tear the whole thing down and start from scratch. It's really a seemingly impossible task given all the bad publicity and horror stories you can find about TWI all over the internet. The people inside TWI may be able to cover it up, ignore it and pretend it never happened, but outside TWI - people know, people will know and people will avoid it regardless of the advertisement and persuasive tactics used by these young guns. ESPECIALLY with many of the same names in authority.
These young guns seem to dismiss the decptive practices of VPW and his plagarism. They also seem to take lock, stock and barrel everything that was taught to them as being correct, accurate and truly God breathed revelation. The poor gal that you talked to considers all those things THE most important aspects of life - the Word and being a "believer" or Christian.... She's right - most churches don't. They focus more on the teachings of Jesus and the "turn the other cheek", "do good unto ALL men", "love the unloveable", "help your fellow man", "love", "peace", "grace" and other things that TWI hardly if ever teaches. There ARE places that teach and believe those things - Especially CFF, CES and some of the off-shoots. There are other churches who teach more accurately than TWI and, therefore, do NOT teach some of the things TWI teaches. There are churches who have small home fellowships, who operate manifestations - even if it's not entirely like TWI... There's actually a LOT of options out there, but if one is going to be close-minded and defensive about TWI, then they aren't going to see the beauty and peacefulness and grace that those places offer. :)
I'm glad you're here! Please, enjoy the danish and I look forward to reading more from you.
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TaylorCompany
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Belle
Mostly only those kids of leadership, TC. The average Joe Believer can't afford it and can't take out a loan to pay for it. ;)
Ricky, have you read the Blue Book study and the PFAL Study published here? These men and women have done a marvelous job of dissecting the teachings and showing where there are blatant errors. Would the young guns care about all that? What if you could show that gal where TWI teaches so much doctrinal and practical error? Would it make a difference to her?
I'm not trying to be a sh1t, I'm genuinely and sincerely asking.
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oldiesman
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Catcup
You know, I really would like to see some of the young people who truly think for themselves and want to make a difference get in there and actually make it right.
But I don't think they've thought through exactly what they would have to do in order to do that, and what the consequences would be. But that thought process is typical of youth and concrete operations. So I'm not surprised they have stars in their eyes.
If everything truly WAS made right, here is an approximation of the scenario that would have to occur:
Notifications would go out from the Board of Trustees and or Directors via the Sunday teaching service, the internet, and in written form to anyone living who has ever been involved in The Way International.
Plainly laid out would be admissions of guilt regarding the following:
* The bald plagiarism and appropriation by fraud of other men and women's hard worked material in scripture and other literature, poetry, music, artwork and dance.
* Sexual misconduct at every level of leadership. ALL names are named.
* Fraud, racketeering, and misappropriation of contributed funds
* Coverups of affairs (plural), rapes (plural), child and spousal abuses (plural), molestations (plural) and circumstances surrounding suicides (plural) and other mysterious deaths
* Defamations of character of persons both living and dead
* Property theft by way of deception
* Threats and coersion
You get it. I could go on and on. I think Jkboehme has already left a huge list on this site of indefensible actions to which TWI needs to admit in order to truly come clean. Heck, we here could compile an entire list longer than Luther's Ninety Five Theses and nail them to the door of the Word Over The World Auditorium as a challenge, but they will continue to go on unanswered. Why?
Because in order to "make it right," The Way International would not only have to admit to the evil they have committed against countless people, but they would have to also make reparations to those whom they have wronged, including returning every red cent they ever defrauded from those of us who truly believed we were donating money to honest and moral upright people.
I'd wager to say no one here would have given TWI a plug nickle in order for it to be spent on Dayton hotel rooms for menage a trois and $1500 suits to clothe men and women who lied and deceived and destroyed lives only to then covered it up.
To "make it right" TWI would not only have to admit their guilt and exhonerate those they defamed. They would have to make reparations to everyone they have ever wronged and they cannot afford to do it without selling off every last asset they own.
In order for The Way International to "make it right," they would have nothing left. That's why they spend so much on lawyers. If they admit it once, it opens the door for their total financial devastation.
So, yeah, I'd like to see an entire crew of young TWI kids go and take control of the place, liquidate the assets to those who were wronged, and then shut the place down. It's the kindest, best thing they could possibly do.
Then they could start from scratch elsewhere, with their youth, and their idealism, do their own independent research, and not have their futures and their childrens' futures mortgaged to an organization that will be sure to suck them dry and then spit out their useless carcasses when they are old and defenseless.
Not holding MY breath.
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socks
Hello folks. In picking around these fine fixings I found a few fragments that caught my eye, although the entire plate of postings here are all worthy of slow, savoring. If I may quote a few passages and comment:
I was in the Way from late 60's to late 80's. Bringing back the Rock before the Way Nash gets healthy is putting the cart before the horse. Baby steps, baby steps. Retire out the Old Bloods first, and get some sense of solid direction first, and proceed building some honor and dignity back into it. Then party. But I have to say I find it both quaint and precious in an odd sort of way that there's a younger generation of Wayfers out there interested in rebuilding the Way. It seems like a strange undertaking to me. Why not do something new, something that's your own, something that doesn't need fixing, firing of fussing with? That's as right as you can make it right from the start?The tendency of Wayfers to move back and forth and all around the country to be near a few friends of like thinking has always fascinated me. Can't people carry on where they are and build a life of their own? Is it always necessary to be with The Group to have a fully realized identity? Dunno. All I can say is do it while you're young.
I wouldn't change my thinking on the Way that was my own experience, due to what someone did today. The past is what it was. If The Way became a reasonable home for Christian fellowship and worship and a person didn't have to worry about getting messed with 24 hours a day I guess that would be fine for anyone interested in checking it out today.I have to say I'm quite proud of my children, both in their early 20's. They don't know a Way from a Weigh. But they have truly done us proud. My personal goal in raising them was to build honesty, trust, and a giving heart as their examples. They exemplify those qualities in ways that make me cry at times. They don't need a concordance to find out if they're doing the right thing, or notes from someone's latest teaching. They're living what I call the Real Deal. They won't lie to you, they won't BS you and they'll help you if you need it. They know God is on their side and that Jesus Christ is with them. My hope was to move our side of the gene pool ahead a few steps at least. They're Leap Froggers.
How about a church that values integrity, honesty and hard work, that puts the Word in action? That doesn't just teach a good game, but actually gets sweaty playing one?
I think it's good to remember that if believing does equal receiving as the Way teaches, you have a perfectly clear accounting for why it is the way it is today and the way it will be tomorrow. Don't blame those who left 20 years ago for the way it is today, there's been ample time to make it right if that's what was going to happen. Look to the people that are there now to know why it is the way it is today.
So far, the believing action of those who are left hasn't produced much of anything I've heard about that's noteworthy. My expectations are much higher today. Talk is cheap and the Way's big on talk. If anyone can produce any action, I'd say they're at least on the right track.
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Oakspear
Secondly, how would someone know whether or not there are churches who taught those things without any investigation. The variety of churches and other religious groups is staggering.
Thirdly the "groundbreaking research" is largely either plagairized or otherwise adapted from other sources, hardly unique.
Finally, most people, while involved in TWI, never take a hard critical look at the research and doctrines except through "Way-colored glasses". Very few people have ever taken the time to determine whether or not what TWI was actually true.
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Catcup
All very good points, Socks.
But seriously, younguns...
TWI is not the only game out there. Don't let that lie that TWI continually promulgates cut you to the heart and make you feel hopelessly isolated when you consider trying to find a place to fellowship with God and the people He loves. That is the entire intent and design of the lie that "There's no one else out there with the rightly divided Word."
Give God more credit as the omniscient power that He is, to not have limited Himself to a cornfield cult in bumf#ck Ohio in order to "reach the world with the Word."
There are numerous churches and organizations out there that God probably finds it much easier to work with than a handful of narrow-minded, egotistical, pretentious pr1cks. Like Socks said, look for those who value integrity, honesty, hard work, and have true compassion for their fellow man. There are a gajillion of them out there. Take your pick.
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bliss
The more I tell people we have left, the more I hear this repeated...........
"What else is there, if you find it let me know?" OR "Be the change, why won't you stay and fight?"
Everyone still "IN" knows that it is a little bad for one reason or another, not bad enoughto their "way colored eyes" to risk "not finding anything EXACTLY LIKE IT", or not "giving it their best shot".
It isn't until they put the whole TWI experience into the "microscope of truth" (past/present research) that they will begin to see that not all they "believe true" is, and that staying to fight for it , well, most likely is FUTILE!
They won't GOOGLE -the way intnl'
Heck,they google a five dollar trinket to see if it's a rip off or not, but NOT their SPIRITUAL LIFE uh uh no way hozay!
Too afraid of what lurks there.................
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Rejoice
Pardon me, but didn't Donna's kids go to college?? We know that VP's older kids did. Seems awfully two-faced to me.
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oldiesman
Ricky if you are still around...
I believe twi can be reformed from within, just like the Roman Catholics did it with their church.
It's possible. And you can start off simple.
Perhaps you might want to go on a crusade of sorts, a mission ... possibly be the champion of a cause that has been extremely distressing to lots of us ex-twi folks, and that is, the adultery issue.
Fight for it to be taught accurately according to the word...
Let it be known that twi needs to teach this issue accurately and honestly.
Lots of the hurt experienced by ex-twi folks came from that one issue alone, and so if twi keeps teaching erroneous doctrines in that category, folks will continue to get hurt, especially new folks.
Think about it.
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