Many times in the wc, we were told people decide to die. to which I have thoughts that agree and disagree.
It just isnt all that black and white though, and twi always wanted to make life black and white, rtight or wrong, yes and no.....no grays, no conditions, no maybes...and that extended to death from what I can remember.
But again this is also qualified to some extent by the twi I, twi II, and twi III interpretations.
My mother's mother was going into surgery for her second double bypass and she talked about dying the whole week up to her surgery date. She died on the operating table. We all think that she was really ready to die. She had had a very, very rough life, her kids were all grown, married with kids of their own and doing very well for themselves. We tend to think that because of that she was ready and able to quit fighting all the awful things that she had had to put up with in her own life (namely a very abusive and dangerous ex-husband).
My great-grandfather, however, was never even expecting to die and had already booked his schedule, planted his crops, re-stocked the catfish pond and was planning to go hunting the next day with some buddies. Never even crossed his mind that he might die sometime soon. He died of natural causes and was never sick, really. It came as a total shock to everyone.
So's who to say what happens, what causes it and why, imo. *shrug* Paul Bro*ks used to say that the more you learned of the word, the more black & white everything became. I think in TWIt world that's true, but it's not in real life and that's why TWI screws people up so bad. We try so hard to pigeon hole everything and it's not easy to pound that square peg into a round hole.
Here is what I remember. We die the instant we give up the will to live. ie. My dad died of stomach cancer. According to what I remember twi taught he died the instant he did because he gave up the will to live at that instant.
It could'nt of been because his body and organs were just ate up with the stuff now could it and they could not function?
Well I know that they taught that old vpw decided to die....that if anybody in the final 24 hours had asked the right question that he would have changed his mind and lived.
He died of a broken heart.....
What a load of crapola......
I am deeply deeply ashamed to say that the one and only time that I ever hurt my beloved Grandmother was when I mindlessly parroted this sh-t to her.
She had had a son who had died in college of hodgkins disease.....he fought valiantly till the very end never gave up..........my stupidity was an assault on her dear son...I was basically saying that her son died because he was weak and her prayers lacked power because of her believing.
I am so ashamed.....I have never seen that look in her eyes....I was also abysmally foolish enough to send her a copy of *are the dead alive now* for Christmas one year.....sigh
The woman was a saint and forgave me of course.....never spoke of it or held it against me.
Well I know that they taught that old vpw decided to die....that if anybody in the final 24 hours had asked the right question that he would have changed his mind and lived.
He died of a broken heart.....
What a load of crapola......
I am deeply deeply ashamed to say that the one and only time that I ever hurt my beloved Grandmother was when I mindlessly parroted this sh-t to her.
She had had a son who had died in college of hodgkins disease.....he fought valiantly till the very end never gave up..........my stupidity was an assault on her dear son...I was basically saying that her son died because he was weak and her prayers lacked power because of her believing.
I am so ashamed.....I have never seen that look in her eyes....I was also abysmally foolish enough to send her a copy of *are the dead alive now* for Christmas one year.....sigh
The woman was a saint and forgave me of course.....never spoke of it or held it against me.
My father has alredy died, he has/was 78 years old. He died from pancreas cancer he died in just 10 months. The doctors did what they could. He was a very disciplined man, He exercised daily, eat a good dieat also. He works until the two last months of his life. But he wants to live. My mother now has 86 years old. She is in good condition, she is happy taking care of my baby girl, she has age problems, but her general condition is good, her brain has no deterioration or very few deterioration, she wants to live up to the 15 years birthday of may daughter. To make her a good traditional RC mexican party .
As we know now TWI doctrine has mistakes, maybe someone of the splinters has divided the Word in this subject correctly. I realy do not think that to die you have to lose the will to live first. I think that one die because of the laws of live set by God. The body deterioreits with time. Also the adversary use a lot ot stuff to kill, to steale and to destroy.
What I know is that Jesus Christ defeat death and some day the death will be destroy.
I think all church type groups are tempted to use death as a weapon to control their "flock" not just TWI. My wife was raised in a very legalistic protestant denomination in which children were routinely threatened with hell fire for stuff like playing outside on Sunday, skipping Sunday school by sneaking up to the bell tower, or ever to stop being in that denomination.
TWI certainly would not be denied their "fun" along these lines. LCM told John Hendricks that he (JH) would burn in hell if he left TWI. He also tarnished the names of 2 faithful wayfers after they died (details of this are in a thread called 'Death in the promised land') in order to instill fear in living wayfers, and he did that teaching where he said that those who aren't true blue believers would be subject to a scathing reproof session after the gathering together which would include weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. I can't wait.
As far as I can see, the word says consistently that dead people should receive SOME honor and recognition for having lived. Even still born children get that! But of course that's up to the living.
As for why people die and when? Gosh. Every day is a gift. None of us can guarantee they're going to be alive 24 hrs from now. There are times when people are vulnerable and only THEY can decide how to proceed. We can speculate from here to doomsday but bottom line the person is dead.
My mom spent the last 3 yrs of her life on the supportive care floor of a nursing home. She had alzheimers and was always trying to escape. Supportive care floors have alarms on the exit doors. I suspect that she lost at least some of her will to live during those 3 yrs, but she was 85, frail, and they put xanic in her food every day. I was actually relieved when she finally died.
Sidestepping the whole death issue, thinking that you can override reality by believing is just a load of crap. Now I'm not saying that people aren't healed by prayer or postitive attitude. They have power and their place.
The defining moment that opened my eyes about believing happened when I was reading about world war II. The Germans *believed* they were the superior race and were destined to win. The Japanese *believed* in their emporer and their cause and they believed they would win. Let me say this again, the Germans and Japanese *believed* they would win. Believed in the sense that VPW taught. The believing that "works for saints and sinners alike".
Both were defeated by the allies. The allies *didn't* believe in a religious sense that they would win.
I think all church type groups are tempted to use death as a weapon to control their "flock" not just TWI. My wife was raised in a very legalistic protestant denomination in which children were routinely threatened with hell fire for stuff like playing outside on Sunday, skipping Sunday school by sneaking up to the bell tower, or ever to stop being in that denomination.
So you can name ONE other group that did that....
so they ALL may do that.
Riiiight.
TWI certainly would not be denied their "fun" along these lines.
After all, since everybody else was doing it, they did it too.
Riiight.
I've never heard of a Christian group-one that was not already labelled as
toxic or dangerous- making such a claim.
LCM told John Hendricks that he (JH) would burn in hell if he left TWI.
I'd prefer to die in my sleep. I guess. That's tough though for whoever finds you. That's one of the hardest parts of it for me - I'm blessed to have some people that seem to enjoy me and even love me. So for those odd souls, it won't be fun to discover I'm dead. Likewise those who I love. I don't want this to end.
I don't think at all about "believing" to live or not die or any of that. There's nothing practical about viewing life and death that way, that I can use anyway. I want to live. At this point I can't picture a time when I wouldn't want to, although there could be some scenarios where that final sleep could be a relief - illness, pain, that kind of thing. But I don't think we need a "Law of Believing" to apply to want to be alive. It's normal to want to be alive, if you're alive.
I personally believe in a "hereafter"...although that word doesn't read right, really. I view life from a postive kind of angle- that we aren't going to be punished for bad things - geez. Think about it, it's hard enough to even do one thing right sometimes, and God is going to nail me for every "bad" thing I've done and punish me for it? Sometimes living life the way it comes down in the here and now is punishment enough, I'd think He'd know that. Life sucks a large portion of the time for a lot of people, through no fault of their own.
So what I can take away from my faith and the teachings of the bible which I look to, is that life continues, progresses and ultimately doesn't "die" but continues on. Once freed of this body the purity of my life remains, the "good" as I might call it now. The "bad" is eliminated, burned away so to speak and what's left is the best of what I am. And I do believe that will be reconstituted in a new body and life will go on. I really don't have any idea if it's immediately after death or down the line at some point. I think - it's down the line. But it's very difficult to picture, even when pieced together from what I see in the bible.
So in a way, I don't fear death, it's inevitable and if we try to talk ourselves into thinking it isn't we're foolish.
But, this life I've got and all the love I know now is really what I know best, obviously. So I want this to go as good as it can, and last as long as it can. I believe the true love I live now will live on forever, in mind and spirit.
When it's over I trust it will end with some honor and dignity. The dead deserve that as they know right now what comes next better than any of us. :)
It's common knowledge that the RC church uses fear of hell to motivate people. I'm not basing that on TWI TEACHINGS, either. I talked to many ex catholics in TWI and they all concurred that according to the church they're going to hell if they don't "repent". Maybe not all people of any certain religion were bombarded with this stuff, but you know as well as I do it's alive and well.
It's common knowledge that the RC church uses fear of hell to motivate people. I'm not basing that on TWI TEACHINGS, either. I talked to many ex catholics in TWI and they all concurred that according to the church they're going to hell if they don't "repent". Maybe not all people of any certain religion were bombarded with this stuff, but you know as well as I do it's alive and well.
That's such a cynical view, but, unfortunately, one that is probably all too true. I know of parents and others in positions of authority from many, many denominations (including Catholics) who use that as a motivation to control their children.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to state for a second that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin that they, through their own decisions, will not end up paying the eternal price for those decisions. But I truly never have seen such an emphasis on this reflected...as THE emphasis...in any teaching of historic Christianity. Again, don't get me wrong...I am not saying that it's not there, but it is not THE emphasis...
Just like what is woven throughout the Pauline letters and, most specifically, in the first letter of Saint John, the EMPHASIS is a positive one: how to conform oneself to Christ, an emphasis on God's divine mercy, practical advice about the struggle against concupiscence (see Rom 7), and so on. Having said that, the impact of sin is perfectly obvious (cf 1 Jn 1:7 and 1:9 with 1 Jn 1:6, 8, 10).
I have little respect for somebody who threatens a child with damnation as a method of control. Again, that is without respect for the denomination of the person doing the threatening. That may keep a child in subjection, but will never end up producing a child who ends up WANTING to do the right thing when it's up to them. Frankly, with that type of rearing, it is no wonder to me why there are as many ex-Catholics as there are (and why there are as many ex-baptists, etc.)
And, by the way, I am saying this from the perspective of somebody who goes to Confession once a month and who tries to do a thorough examination of conscience every night before going to bed. And somebody whose daughter reminds him that it's time to go to confession if he forgets. And I will tell you that my motivation for doing so is rarely based upon a concern of the destination of my soul. My motivation is the conformance of my soul to Christ, the identification of those areas where my thoughts and actions have fallen short of that standard and the desire to receive the healing of God's mercy so that my soul can continue to be ever more closely conformed to Christ. But for fear of hell? I would certainly hope not...
quote: I have little respect for somebody who threatens a child with damnation as a method of control. Again, that is without respect for the denomination of the person doing the threatening. That may keep a child in subjection, but will never end up producing a child who ends up WANTING to do the right thing when it's up to them. Frankly, with that type of rearing, it is no wonder to me why there are as many ex-Catholics as there are (and why there are as many ex-baptists, etc.)
This was something about TWI that made a positive impression on me. When I first got involved (76/77) they taught that incorruptible seed meant a guarantee of salvation even if you left the ministry. And being raised by ultra liberals my stereotype of pretty much all churches was that they all thought you went to hell if you left. My wife was told when she was 6 yrs old that she'd burn in hell forever if she ever stopped being Christian Reformed. A 6 yr old probably has to still be reminded to not touch the stove. Imagine what it must have been like to introduce the concept of burning forever. I'd call that abuse. This doesn't mean ALL CRC churches would do that, but yeh, not much to respect.
quote: I have little respect for somebody who threatens a child with damnation as a method of control. Again, that is without respect for the denomination of the person doing the threatening. That may keep a child in subjection, but will never end up producing a child who ends up WANTING to do the right thing when it's up to them. Frankly, with that type of rearing, it is no wonder to me why there are as many ex-Catholics as there are (and why there are as many ex-baptists, etc.)
This was something about TWI that made a positive impression on me. When I first got involved (76/77) they taught that incorruptible seed meant a guarantee of salvation even if you left the ministry. And being raised by ultra liberals my stereotype of pretty much all churches was that they all thought you went to hell if you left. My wife was told when she was 6 yrs old that she'd burn in hell forever if she ever stopped being Christian Reformed. A 6 yr old probably has to still be reminded to not touch the stove. Imagine what it must have been like to introduce the concept of burning forever. I'd call that abuse. This doesn't mean ALL CRC churches would do that, but yeh, not much to respect.
First, a child needs to be taught the goodness of God first and foremost. Building a desire to love God with all the heart is of upmost importance...and I don't care where you go on Sunday/Saturday/whenever. If that is uppermost in the mind, the rest follows.
Secondly, one thing that I've learned from years of experience is that a reliance upon what some people THINK a church teaches may or may not represent what that church teaches. At best, it is an indication of how well it taught. More than likely, it's an indication of how well families passed on the traditions of that church. Again, I truly believe that statement applies wherever, not just with the Catholic church.
Your post brought back some wonderful childhood memories from the 2,3 grade. Those inspiring stories of priests that crawled through the pews eating all the communion hosts that the communists threw down the aisle after torturing everyone. One by one he would crawl up the aisle eating them, of course just as he ate the last one and saved the day they would catch him and machine gun him down only to become a saint in heaven for saving the body of Christ. What a comforting story for little children to sleep to at night. Well that's all for story time today kids tomorrow we'll hear about the priest who heard the confession of his torturers before he died a slow painful death. Yeah I miss those nightmares.
Medical science admits that "the will to live" is a powerful force in healing. {read Readers Digest for inspiring stories of some people surviving against all odds) it is equally true that the lack of this will has probably hastened some peoples deaths. But the key here is "SOME".
The reality is that all living things are born, hopefully survive to adulthood, where they hopefully procreate, and at some point after this they die. That is life in a nutshell --born, procreate, die.
When or why we die is as varied as the person involved. But that we will die is sure. Only the return of Christ and the first resurrection will stop this process for the faithful. (IMO) and then there is that second resurrection with plenty of death to go around. Unless you are "translated" like Elijah you must die to get to the next stage. That is reality.
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washingtonweather
Belle,
Many times in the wc, we were told people decide to die. to which I have thoughts that agree and disagree.
It just isnt all that black and white though, and twi always wanted to make life black and white, rtight or wrong, yes and no.....no grays, no conditions, no maybes...and that extended to death from what I can remember.
But again this is also qualified to some extent by the twi I, twi II, and twi III interpretations.
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oldiesman
Yeah.
VP taught years ago that the only way you can die is to quit believing.
I still have the cassette tape, from the early 70's.
It is from Hebrews (these all died in faith)...or something like that.
The whole idea was that Christ died for all of our sins and sicknesses, up to the last one..which is death itself.
Therefore, when one quits believing ... they die...
I don't know if this teaching was revised in the later years.
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washingtonweather
I think death comes somestimes prematurely becasue I do still believe the devil wants people to be sick and die.
I think death comes at the end of a long life naturally -- biologically if you will.
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Belle
I know what you mean, WW.
My mother's mother was going into surgery for her second double bypass and she talked about dying the whole week up to her surgery date. She died on the operating table. We all think that she was really ready to die. She had had a very, very rough life, her kids were all grown, married with kids of their own and doing very well for themselves. We tend to think that because of that she was ready and able to quit fighting all the awful things that she had had to put up with in her own life (namely a very abusive and dangerous ex-husband).
My great-grandfather, however, was never even expecting to die and had already booked his schedule, planted his crops, re-stocked the catfish pond and was planning to go hunting the next day with some buddies. Never even crossed his mind that he might die sometime soon. He died of natural causes and was never sick, really. It came as a total shock to everyone.
So's who to say what happens, what causes it and why, imo. *shrug* Paul Bro*ks used to say that the more you learned of the word, the more black & white everything became. I think in TWIt world that's true, but it's not in real life and that's why TWI screws people up so bad. We try so hard to pigeon hole everything and it's not easy to pound that square peg into a round hole.
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justloafing
Here is what I remember. We die the instant we give up the will to live. ie. My dad died of stomach cancer. According to what I remember twi taught he died the instant he did because he gave up the will to live at that instant.
It could'nt of been because his body and organs were just ate up with the stuff now could it and they could not function?
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rascal
Well I know that they taught that old vpw decided to die....that if anybody in the final 24 hours had asked the right question that he would have changed his mind and lived.
He died of a broken heart.....
What a load of crapola......
I am deeply deeply ashamed to say that the one and only time that I ever hurt my beloved Grandmother was when I mindlessly parroted this sh-t to her.
She had had a son who had died in college of hodgkins disease.....he fought valiantly till the very end never gave up..........my stupidity was an assault on her dear son...I was basically saying that her son died because he was weak and her prayers lacked power because of her believing.
I am so ashamed.....I have never seen that look in her eyes....I was also abysmally foolish enough to send her a copy of *are the dead alive now* for Christmas one year.....sigh
The woman was a saint and forgave me of course.....never spoke of it or held it against me.
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WordWolf
People can suffer through clinical depression or functional depression
for DECADES. For many of them, death would be a welcome friend.
Some other people want to commit suicide, and attempt it,
only being saved thru an error in the attempt, or thru an outside
rescue. (No, I'm not saying suicide was not "error", read the
entire post.)
Those people do not wish to live. Some believe to die. Period.
Then they get up the next morning, and maybe they change
their mind. Or, maybe they consent to die for a decade.
Believing to die failed them-because believing is STILL not a law.
Not-believing to survive failed them for the same reason.
You do not "die when you quit believing".
You die when you quit breathing.
You quit believing when you die.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
rascal
what awonderful grandma you had!
she sounds like my mom
and don't feel guilty
we were PROGRAMED that way
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Raf
Death is not the result of no longer believing.
Death is the result of no longer breathing.
(just saw WordWolf's post. Great minds...)
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washingtonweather
very well said Raf.
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themex
My father has alredy died, he has/was 78 years old. He died from pancreas cancer he died in just 10 months. The doctors did what they could. He was a very disciplined man, He exercised daily, eat a good dieat also. He works until the two last months of his life. But he wants to live. My mother now has 86 years old. She is in good condition, she is happy taking care of my baby girl, she has age problems, but her general condition is good, her brain has no deterioration or very few deterioration, she wants to live up to the 15 years birthday of may daughter. To make her a good traditional RC mexican party .
As we know now TWI doctrine has mistakes, maybe someone of the splinters has divided the Word in this subject correctly. I realy do not think that to die you have to lose the will to live first. I think that one die because of the laws of live set by God. The body deterioreits with time. Also the adversary use a lot ot stuff to kill, to steale and to destroy.
What I know is that Jesus Christ defeat death and some day the death will be destroy.
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johniam
I think all church type groups are tempted to use death as a weapon to control their "flock" not just TWI. My wife was raised in a very legalistic protestant denomination in which children were routinely threatened with hell fire for stuff like playing outside on Sunday, skipping Sunday school by sneaking up to the bell tower, or ever to stop being in that denomination.
TWI certainly would not be denied their "fun" along these lines. LCM told John Hendricks that he (JH) would burn in hell if he left TWI. He also tarnished the names of 2 faithful wayfers after they died (details of this are in a thread called 'Death in the promised land') in order to instill fear in living wayfers, and he did that teaching where he said that those who aren't true blue believers would be subject to a scathing reproof session after the gathering together which would include weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. I can't wait.
As far as I can see, the word says consistently that dead people should receive SOME honor and recognition for having lived. Even still born children get that! But of course that's up to the living.
As for why people die and when? Gosh. Every day is a gift. None of us can guarantee they're going to be alive 24 hrs from now. There are times when people are vulnerable and only THEY can decide how to proceed. We can speculate from here to doomsday but bottom line the person is dead.
My mom spent the last 3 yrs of her life on the supportive care floor of a nursing home. She had alzheimers and was always trying to escape. Supportive care floors have alarms on the exit doors. I suspect that she lost at least some of her will to live during those 3 yrs, but she was 85, frail, and they put xanic in her food every day. I was actually relieved when she finally died.
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Jim
Sidestepping the whole death issue, thinking that you can override reality by believing is just a load of crap. Now I'm not saying that people aren't healed by prayer or postitive attitude. They have power and their place.
The defining moment that opened my eyes about believing happened when I was reading about world war II. The Germans *believed* they were the superior race and were destined to win. The Japanese *believed* in their emporer and their cause and they believed they would win. Let me say this again, the Germans and Japanese *believed* they would win. Believed in the sense that VPW taught. The believing that "works for saints and sinners alike".
Both were defeated by the allies. The allies *didn't* believe in a religious sense that they would win.
Sorry for the derailment...
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WordWolf
So you can name ONE other group that did that....
so they ALL may do that.
Riiiight.
After all, since everybody else was doing it, they did it too.Riiight.
I've never heard of a Christian group-one that was not already labelled as
toxic or dangerous- making such a claim.
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socks
I'd prefer to die in my sleep. I guess. That's tough though for whoever finds you. That's one of the hardest parts of it for me - I'm blessed to have some people that seem to enjoy me and even love me. So for those odd souls, it won't be fun to discover I'm dead. Likewise those who I love. I don't want this to end.
I don't think at all about "believing" to live or not die or any of that. There's nothing practical about viewing life and death that way, that I can use anyway. I want to live. At this point I can't picture a time when I wouldn't want to, although there could be some scenarios where that final sleep could be a relief - illness, pain, that kind of thing. But I don't think we need a "Law of Believing" to apply to want to be alive. It's normal to want to be alive, if you're alive.
I personally believe in a "hereafter"...although that word doesn't read right, really. I view life from a postive kind of angle- that we aren't going to be punished for bad things - geez. Think about it, it's hard enough to even do one thing right sometimes, and God is going to nail me for every "bad" thing I've done and punish me for it? Sometimes living life the way it comes down in the here and now is punishment enough, I'd think He'd know that. Life sucks a large portion of the time for a lot of people, through no fault of their own.
So what I can take away from my faith and the teachings of the bible which I look to, is that life continues, progresses and ultimately doesn't "die" but continues on. Once freed of this body the purity of my life remains, the "good" as I might call it now. The "bad" is eliminated, burned away so to speak and what's left is the best of what I am. And I do believe that will be reconstituted in a new body and life will go on. I really don't have any idea if it's immediately after death or down the line at some point. I think - it's down the line. But it's very difficult to picture, even when pieced together from what I see in the bible.
So in a way, I don't fear death, it's inevitable and if we try to talk ourselves into thinking it isn't we're foolish.
But, this life I've got and all the love I know now is really what I know best, obviously. So I want this to go as good as it can, and last as long as it can. I believe the true love I live now will live on forever, in mind and spirit.
When it's over I trust it will end with some honor and dignity. The dead deserve that as they know right now what comes next better than any of us. :)
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dmiller
'Scuze me --- doesn't the statement *all died in faith* kinda negate the
*you die by quitting believing* shpiel???
Docvic was so big on the *faith equals believing* thing
that the two were the one and the same thing.
He's contradicting himself -- and all on the same tape
by saying one thing, and then coming up with scripture
that said the exact opposite
according to his teachings on faith and believing.
One of those two entities was wrong,
and I'll give ya two guesses about my vote.
(ps --- the first one doesn't count!!)
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jkboehme
See the thread, "Are the Dead Alive Now" was plagiarized
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7039
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johniam
quote:
So you can name ONE other group that did that....
so they ALL may do that.
Riiiight.
It's common knowledge that the RC church uses fear of hell to motivate people. I'm not basing that on TWI TEACHINGS, either. I talked to many ex catholics in TWI and they all concurred that according to the church they're going to hell if they don't "repent". Maybe not all people of any certain religion were bombarded with this stuff, but you know as well as I do it's alive and well.
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markomalley
That's such a cynical view, but, unfortunately, one that is probably all too true. I know of parents and others in positions of authority from many, many denominations (including Catholics) who use that as a motivation to control their children.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to state for a second that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin that they, through their own decisions, will not end up paying the eternal price for those decisions. But I truly never have seen such an emphasis on this reflected...as THE emphasis...in any teaching of historic Christianity. Again, don't get me wrong...I am not saying that it's not there, but it is not THE emphasis...
Just like what is woven throughout the Pauline letters and, most specifically, in the first letter of Saint John, the EMPHASIS is a positive one: how to conform oneself to Christ, an emphasis on God's divine mercy, practical advice about the struggle against concupiscence (see Rom 7), and so on. Having said that, the impact of sin is perfectly obvious (cf 1 Jn 1:7 and 1:9 with 1 Jn 1:6, 8, 10).
I have little respect for somebody who threatens a child with damnation as a method of control. Again, that is without respect for the denomination of the person doing the threatening. That may keep a child in subjection, but will never end up producing a child who ends up WANTING to do the right thing when it's up to them. Frankly, with that type of rearing, it is no wonder to me why there are as many ex-Catholics as there are (and why there are as many ex-baptists, etc.)
And, by the way, I am saying this from the perspective of somebody who goes to Confession once a month and who tries to do a thorough examination of conscience every night before going to bed. And somebody whose daughter reminds him that it's time to go to confession if he forgets. And I will tell you that my motivation for doing so is rarely based upon a concern of the destination of my soul. My motivation is the conformance of my soul to Christ, the identification of those areas where my thoughts and actions have fallen short of that standard and the desire to receive the healing of God's mercy so that my soul can continue to be ever more closely conformed to Christ. But for fear of hell? I would certainly hope not...
FWIW
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johniam
quote: I have little respect for somebody who threatens a child with damnation as a method of control. Again, that is without respect for the denomination of the person doing the threatening. That may keep a child in subjection, but will never end up producing a child who ends up WANTING to do the right thing when it's up to them. Frankly, with that type of rearing, it is no wonder to me why there are as many ex-Catholics as there are (and why there are as many ex-baptists, etc.)
This was something about TWI that made a positive impression on me. When I first got involved (76/77) they taught that incorruptible seed meant a guarantee of salvation even if you left the ministry. And being raised by ultra liberals my stereotype of pretty much all churches was that they all thought you went to hell if you left. My wife was told when she was 6 yrs old that she'd burn in hell forever if she ever stopped being Christian Reformed. A 6 yr old probably has to still be reminded to not touch the stove. Imagine what it must have been like to introduce the concept of burning forever. I'd call that abuse. This doesn't mean ALL CRC churches would do that, but yeh, not much to respect.
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markomalley
First, a child needs to be taught the goodness of God first and foremost. Building a desire to love God with all the heart is of upmost importance...and I don't care where you go on Sunday/Saturday/whenever. If that is uppermost in the mind, the rest follows.
Secondly, one thing that I've learned from years of experience is that a reliance upon what some people THINK a church teaches may or may not represent what that church teaches. At best, it is an indication of how well it taught. More than likely, it's an indication of how well families passed on the traditions of that church. Again, I truly believe that statement applies wherever, not just with the Catholic church.
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WordWolf
Just thought I'd mention-
I was raised Roman Catholic,
and got straight "A"s in religion,
and neither at home, nor in class, nor in mass,
did I get an impression that I'd better shape up or I'd be going to hell.
I've seen that characteristic on fictional television,
but I'd never seen it for real growing up.
So, not everyone was taught that-although I don't think
anyone WAS saying EVERYONE was taught that.
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WhiteDove
Ha John
Your post brought back some wonderful childhood memories from the 2,3 grade. Those inspiring stories of priests that crawled through the pews eating all the communion hosts that the communists threw down the aisle after torturing everyone. One by one he would crawl up the aisle eating them, of course just as he ate the last one and saved the day they would catch him and machine gun him down only to become a saint in heaven for saving the body of Christ. What a comforting story for little children to sleep to at night. Well that's all for story time today kids tomorrow we'll hear about the priest who heard the confession of his torturers before he died a slow painful death. Yeah I miss those nightmares.
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templelady
Medical science admits that "the will to live" is a powerful force in healing. {read Readers Digest for inspiring stories of some people surviving against all odds) it is equally true that the lack of this will has probably hastened some peoples deaths. But the key here is "SOME".
The reality is that all living things are born, hopefully survive to adulthood, where they hopefully procreate, and at some point after this they die. That is life in a nutshell --born, procreate, die.
When or why we die is as varied as the person involved. But that we will die is sure. Only the return of Christ and the first resurrection will stop this process for the faithful. (IMO) and then there is that second resurrection with plenty of death to go around. Unless you are "translated" like Elijah you must die to get to the next stage. That is reality.
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