you're correct burning man... he's just practicing the old standard "think no evil" of leadership, it's in the past what's the profit? ...every 'church' has it's problems, etc, etc... the things that TWI tries to ingraine in everyone's mind so there'll be no questioning, no doubt...
but it's also OK for folks to point out that these things that he 'believes' are fallacies and outright lies... and IIRC when he started posting his views here, folks tried to gently help him out and his response was to act like a bratty know it all kid and challenge (in a not so polite manner) everyone's opinion that didn't agree with his...
Oh Loafing, I have NO doubt that his folks are ex wafers...probably very nice people at that.....
What I take issue with is that if they ever had any actual dealings with Chris Geer or VPW in person.
These people, as genuine as their motives undoubtedly are....are ignorant of what they continue to promote....and now a new genereation is being infected.
It is irresponsible to promote teachings/dogma when there is some doubt as to the spiritual healthiness of the individuals that presented it in the first place.
I`d like to see ck wake up and do his own investigating, rather than mindlessly swallow the pablum that he has been spoon fed all of his life.
Either your parents are completely ignorant regarding the truth in this situation, or they are complicit in the evil practiced by these two individuals...
I agree with that Rascal. That was sort of my point I was at HQ for some time and was ignorant of what was going on. That is why I also wanted to as how "deep" his parents were in. My guess is not real "deep" since his dad had to be cleared to go to SNS.
Keep this in mind CK, you personally are defending evil...you personally are promoting a man`s doctrines, one who practiced great evil...another who still is very evil...even if it is with the best of intentions
I just think he is going to have to come to this conclusion too. Maybe he will maybe he wont. Right now I think he just thinks of the words that came out of these peoples mouths and has not relized yet the men or their motives behind the words they spoke. JMHO
Oh Loafing, I have NO doubt that his folks are ex wafers...probably very nice people at that.....
What I take issue with is that if they ever had any actual dealings with Chris Geer or VPW in person.
These people, as genuine as their motives undoubtedly are....are ignorant of what they continue to promote....and now a new genereation is being infected.
Wouldn't surprise me abit.
I've run into ex-wayers like that..........bought into the religious droning of pfal and NEVER met vpw in person or attended events on twi property. And, the old green & black bumper stickers of "The Way" are a fixation to their car......and they've catalogued the sunday teaching tapes in meticulous fashion.
They hole up in some deserted town in the middle of nowhere.......and think that they're "preserving the word" for the next generation. It's a zombie fanaticism and existence.
And yes................the kids are infected with the same disease.
I will think the very best of Rev. Geer. I will think the very best of you and everybody on this thread.
That certainly isn't reflected so far by you posting in a kind and civil
fashion, let alone a "loving" one. If you're "thinking the very best"
of me, your words TO me will reflect that.
Rev. Geer taught to the best of his ability. I will defend Rev. Geer and VPW till my fingers turn to bone. They are both men of God that have or is doing God's will.
I met cg. I had time to interact with him. I scrutinized him and observed
him diligently, looking for signs of improper response, etc.
I found none.
That was MY personal experience.
Now, then, MY personal experience counts for something,
but it's the AGGREGATE of personal experiences that count for MORE.
So, when I heard that a number of people had spent a lot MORE time
with cg than I did, in situations where he did not control all the variables,
and that their experiences were VERY different from mine,
did I say "no, you all must be liars and thinking evil of him?"
No, I added what THEY knew to what I knew. I said that he presented
himself different ways to different people.
Now, then,
you're taking the report you have of TWO people-which, by definition,
is limited to what the two people saw and heard-
and completely disregarding the eyewitness reports who were where
they were not, and saw what they did not, and heard what they
did not.
Do you realize how silly this is?
Let's say you lived in Texas, and had kids.
You hired Pogo the Clown to entertain at some of their
birthday parties. No problem, everyone was entertained.
Besides, the guy in the suit was a nice guy-he'd been in
the Boy Scouts when younger, and was in the Jaycees as an
adult-as well as the Chi Rho Club and other community
service organizations.
According to a number of people, he's a nice guy.
HOWEVER,
this guy, John Wayne Gacy Jr,
killed 33 boys and adolescent males,
(after torturing and raping them)
and was sentenced to death by lethal injection.
When faced with his one surviving victim-who escaped handcuffs and
identified him for the police- Gacy said
"You're the only one that ever got out of these and got them on me."
He also said later
"The only thing they can get me for is running a funeral parlor without
a license."
So,
just because a few people who saw him casually thought he was a nice guy,
did NOT mean he WAS a nice guy.
Just because your parents saw vpw and cg-AT A DISTANCE and under
conditions controlled by vpw and cg- does NOT mean they know all their
is to know about them. For all they know, either or both is guilty of
Like I said WW, I was there. I never saw him do what you have said he did. Were you there and saw this? Just wondering.
I do believe that if he did this, that it would be considered brandishing. I know he had a nice .357 magnum. We shot some goats with it at Gunnison one time...
AND, I am not defending the man. But since I was there, and since this "issue of brandishing a pistolo" has come up, and no one here actually saw it, I wonder about the claim, that's all.
I DO know that CG was very severe, accused many of the clergy of being posessed, and I was seriously disappointed in the fact that he taught one night, then flew back to Scotland the next night, leaving us with a tape of his "thoughts on the matter". I think that the implied emphasis was that we were to "go to God on the matter, get actual revelation on the situation, and figure out what God really wanted each of us to do as a gift minister". And if we were unable to do this, then, so be it. Drift off into oblivion...
And, here I am, in the Wilds Of Alaska, with my beautiful wife and precious children, waiting for Old Gabriel to blow that
I've never talked to anyone there who said they saw ... the gun. And after the meeting where...the gun appeared, no one that I spoke to or saw later was talking about...the gun.
I never heard about...the gun...until Waydale and then here. So I dunno...
Was there...a gun?
I don't know. If someone I knew said that there was, I'd probably believe them. I was back several rows, couple three seats in from the aisle, so my view may have been blocked at key times.
I don't really care, but I guess I care enough to add this insightful first hand account of what I didn't see. It seems like an account that has legs, it's certainly been retold enough times. But mostly I'm glad it's over. I doubt I would have stayed if I knew there was brandishing going on. Brandishing's never a good thing.
Well then... did either of you (Jonny or my brother from the sock drawer) see CG point his index finger (while folding the other three back) and while making little bending motions with his thumb? ...did he ever do that and then blow on the end of his index finger?
To be honest, it's no laughing matter, this gun business. Because I have the image - have you ever had a memory of something from your past that happened to you, but for some reason you remember from the view of someone else, as if you're seeing it in memory as if you were actually standing off to the side? Remembering it you see it in your mind's eye from another's view. I'm not sure why that happens, there's probably a name for it. It may be because of the way I've reconstructed the memory of the event over time, not sure.
Anyway, I have the image of "CG" at the podium now, after reading WW and JL's exchange, and he's walking up, no - lumbering in that doughboy-that-just-ate sort of stroll, towards the podium and he's doing that little chewy thing with his mouth where the lips look like they're trying to find where they're supposed to be. And when he hits the podium he sort of swishes his jacket back to the right side, and there in living color is...the gun...and then just as everyone's breath catches he...starts dancing around doing a little jig and clapping his hands together and saying "Just kidding! I was just kidding! Ha ha ha ha ha---ah!" and then stops and steps back to the podium, again very solemn and begins intoning...
"I speak here tonight, for the dignity of man...." .... and everyone breaks out in laughter and applause and someone says "Let's have some BURGERS!" and amidst a holler of affirmative hoots and backslapping agreement everyone heads out to the Asphalt Terrace, where Ted is set up and singing "Too Many Do-Goods" to roousing accompaniment provided by the 2nd Interim In-Law Corps and there's people skating out on the Way Pond and as the memory slowly fades out the voice of Don Weirwille can be heard saying "No mustard, and I mean...no mustard please!"
Greasy, I really wish you could get the Night that will Live in Infamy thread and put it out here....at LEAST the first post on it, which is the one I wrote. I no longer have my notes, and that record of the night was pretty close to 100% accurate. The gun incident was cg on the stage of the auditorium on the night of the original reading of pop on April 23, 1986. John L had a gun and was using it to prevent Don W from entering the auditorium.
I don't know about a VISIBLE gun during the November Clergy meeting, however, I would have been SURPRISED if he was not wearing it in a holster under his jacket, the man was an unbelievable "survivalist" and was PARANOID of things that go bump in the night.
It has been nineteen and a half years since that weekend meeting and I am sure there are lots of things that are fuzzy in our minds. One thing I remember as if it were yesterday......................
I was working at swb at twi then, and was working that weekend. Our department coordinator was a former safety staffer named Peter Q (God rest his soul.......I miss him.) At some point during the last few hours that cg was there, he radio'd PQ (number 84 ) and asked him to come to trailer 5. When PQ arrived he HANDCUFFED a brief case to his wrist and instructed him to drive around until cg radio'd him back and had him come pick him up and drive him to the airport.
This next part I am not completely sure of..........it seems to me that later I was told that the brief case contained documents transferring the copyrights of VPWs works from The Way International to The Way of Great Britain, Ltd. *It would not seem out of character for cg to have used coercion or even blackmail of some sort to acheive his own ends, he was ruthless and brutal, as 3/4 of the people that ever met him back then can attest to.* Whatever happened at the "public" clergy meetings, it was NOTHING compared to what happened behind the private curtain between cg and the twi trustees, and Donna of course
Do you get a lot of good fishing in while you wait?
Yes! Salmon. Lots and lots of them. And Dolly Varden trout. And halibut. great big ones. The biggest one I have hauled in was a 260 pounder. But, that was a halibut I "caught" while commercial fishing on a long liner. But man oh man, I harpooned him with a harponn that had a tip that came off with a lanyard on it, and then we hauled in in by line and then gaffed him and hauled him aboard and then the skipper shot him with .357 magnum (the gun!) and put a hole in the deck of his own boat, the numbskull!
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Tom Strange
you're correct burning man... he's just practicing the old standard "think no evil" of leadership, it's in the past what's the profit? ...every 'church' has it's problems, etc, etc... the things that TWI tries to ingraine in everyone's mind so there'll be no questioning, no doubt...
but it's also OK for folks to point out that these things that he 'believes' are fallacies and outright lies... and IIRC when he started posting his views here, folks tried to gently help him out and his response was to act like a bratty know it all kid and challenge (in a not so polite manner) everyone's opinion that didn't agree with his...
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rascal
Oh Loafing, I have NO doubt that his folks are ex wafers...probably very nice people at that.....
What I take issue with is that if they ever had any actual dealings with Chris Geer or VPW in person.
These people, as genuine as their motives undoubtedly are....are ignorant of what they continue to promote....and now a new genereation is being infected.
It is irresponsible to promote teachings/dogma when there is some doubt as to the spiritual healthiness of the individuals that presented it in the first place.
I`d like to see ck wake up and do his own investigating, rather than mindlessly swallow the pablum that he has been spoon fed all of his life.
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justloafing
I just think he is going to have to come to this conclusion too. Maybe he will maybe he wont. Right now I think he just thinks of the words that came out of these peoples mouths and has not relized yet the men or their motives behind the words they spoke. JMHO
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skyrider
Wouldn't surprise me abit.
I've run into ex-wayers like that..........bought into the religious droning of pfal and NEVER met vpw in person or attended events on twi property. And, the old green & black bumper stickers of "The Way" are a fixation to their car......and they've catalogued the sunday teaching tapes in meticulous fashion.
They hole up in some deserted town in the middle of nowhere.......and think that they're "preserving the word" for the next generation. It's a zombie fanaticism and existence.
And yes................the kids are infected with the same disease.
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WordWolf
That certainly isn't reflected so far by you posting in a kind and civil
fashion, let alone a "loving" one. If you're "thinking the very best"
of me, your words TO me will reflect that.
I met cg. I had time to interact with him. I scrutinized him and observed
him diligently, looking for signs of improper response, etc.
I found none.
That was MY personal experience.
Now, then, MY personal experience counts for something,
but it's the AGGREGATE of personal experiences that count for MORE.
So, when I heard that a number of people had spent a lot MORE time
with cg than I did, in situations where he did not control all the variables,
and that their experiences were VERY different from mine,
did I say "no, you all must be liars and thinking evil of him?"
No, I added what THEY knew to what I knew. I said that he presented
himself different ways to different people.
Now, then,
you're taking the report you have of TWO people-which, by definition,
is limited to what the two people saw and heard-
and completely disregarding the eyewitness reports who were where
they were not, and saw what they did not, and heard what they
did not.
Do you realize how silly this is?
Let's say you lived in Texas, and had kids.
You hired Pogo the Clown to entertain at some of their
birthday parties. No problem, everyone was entertained.
Besides, the guy in the suit was a nice guy-he'd been in
the Boy Scouts when younger, and was in the Jaycees as an
adult-as well as the Chi Rho Club and other community
service organizations.
According to a number of people, he's a nice guy.
HOWEVER,
this guy, John Wayne Gacy Jr,
killed 33 boys and adolescent males,
(after torturing and raping them)
and was sentenced to death by lethal injection.
When faced with his one surviving victim-who escaped handcuffs and
identified him for the police- Gacy said
"You're the only one that ever got out of these and got them on me."
He also said later
"The only thing they can get me for is running a funeral parlor without
a license."
So,
just because a few people who saw him casually thought he was a nice guy,
did NOT mean he WAS a nice guy.
Just because your parents saw vpw and cg-AT A DISTANCE and under
conditions controlled by vpw and cg- does NOT mean they know all their
is to know about them. For all they know, either or both is guilty of
murder, or rape.
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J0nny Ling0
Like I said WW, I was there. I never saw him do what you have said he did. Were you there and saw this? Just wondering.
I do believe that if he did this, that it would be considered brandishing. I know he had a nice .357 magnum. We shot some goats with it at Gunnison one time...
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ckmkeon
That is me defending evil, that is what I do best
CK
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dmiller
What I remember hearing is that he brushed his suit coat aside,
revealing the pistol, while he was up at the podium.
As I said -- I wasn't there, but the person who told me this was.
2nd hand info on my part (certainly), and it could just be a stow-ree,
but ~~~~~~~ Hmmmm.
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J0nny Ling0
AND, I am not defending the man. But since I was there, and since this "issue of brandishing a pistolo" has come up, and no one here actually saw it, I wonder about the claim, that's all.
I DO know that CG was very severe, accused many of the clergy of being posessed, and I was seriously disappointed in the fact that he taught one night, then flew back to Scotland the next night, leaving us with a tape of his "thoughts on the matter". I think that the implied emphasis was that we were to "go to God on the matter, get actual revelation on the situation, and figure out what God really wanted each of us to do as a gift minister". And if we were unable to do this, then, so be it. Drift off into oblivion...
And, here I am, in the Wilds Of Alaska, with my beautiful wife and precious children, waiting for Old Gabriel to blow that
horn! :)
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dmiller
Jonny -- your last post (and drifting off), reminded me of this song ---
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rhino
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socks
The gun.
I was there, never saw the gun.
I've never talked to anyone there who said they saw ... the gun. And after the meeting where...the gun appeared, no one that I spoke to or saw later was talking about...the gun.
I never heard about...the gun...until Waydale and then here. So I dunno...
Was there...a gun?
I don't know. If someone I knew said that there was, I'd probably believe them. I was back several rows, couple three seats in from the aisle, so my view may have been blocked at key times.
I don't really care, but I guess I care enough to add this insightful first hand account of what I didn't see. It seems like an account that has legs, it's certainly been retold enough times. But mostly I'm glad it's over. I doubt I would have stayed if I knew there was brandishing going on. Brandishing's never a good thing.
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Tom Strange
Well then... did either of you (Jonny or my brother from the sock drawer) see CG point his index finger (while folding the other three back) and while making little bending motions with his thumb? ...did he ever do that and then blow on the end of his index finger?
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dmiller
Then again -- I heard it coulda been a .357 magnum snow-cone he had
stashed away there at the podium, that he *brandished*.
(Ya wouldn't want one of them under a suit-coat!!) :blink:
Hmmmm.
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socks
Oh, you two! Now you're being silly!
To be honest, it's no laughing matter, this gun business. Because I have the image - have you ever had a memory of something from your past that happened to you, but for some reason you remember from the view of someone else, as if you're seeing it in memory as if you were actually standing off to the side? Remembering it you see it in your mind's eye from another's view. I'm not sure why that happens, there's probably a name for it. It may be because of the way I've reconstructed the memory of the event over time, not sure.
Anyway, I have the image of "CG" at the podium now, after reading WW and JL's exchange, and he's walking up, no - lumbering in that doughboy-that-just-ate sort of stroll, towards the podium and he's doing that little chewy thing with his mouth where the lips look like they're trying to find where they're supposed to be. And when he hits the podium he sort of swishes his jacket back to the right side, and there in living color is...the gun...and then just as everyone's breath catches he...starts dancing around doing a little jig and clapping his hands together and saying "Just kidding! I was just kidding! Ha ha ha ha ha---ah!" and then stops and steps back to the podium, again very solemn and begins intoning...
"I speak here tonight, for the dignity of man...." .... and everyone breaks out in laughter and applause and someone says "Let's have some BURGERS!" and amidst a holler of affirmative hoots and backslapping agreement everyone heads out to the Asphalt Terrace, where Ted is set up and singing "Too Many Do-Goods" to roousing accompaniment provided by the 2nd Interim In-Law Corps and there's people skating out on the Way Pond and as the memory slowly fades out the voice of Don Weirwille can be heard saying "No mustard, and I mean...no mustard please!"
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Radar OReilly
Greasy, I really wish you could get the Night that will Live in Infamy thread and put it out here....at LEAST the first post on it, which is the one I wrote. I no longer have my notes, and that record of the night was pretty close to 100% accurate. The gun incident was cg on the stage of the auditorium on the night of the original reading of pop on April 23, 1986. John L had a gun and was using it to prevent Don W from entering the auditorium.
I don't know about a VISIBLE gun during the November Clergy meeting, however, I would have been SURPRISED if he was not wearing it in a holster under his jacket, the man was an unbelievable "survivalist" and was PARANOID of things that go bump in the night.
It has been nineteen and a half years since that weekend meeting and I am sure there are lots of things that are fuzzy in our minds. One thing I remember as if it were yesterday......................
I was working at swb at twi then, and was working that weekend. Our department coordinator was a former safety staffer named Peter Q (God rest his soul.......I miss him.) At some point during the last few hours that cg was there, he radio'd PQ (number 84
) and asked him to come to trailer 5. When PQ arrived he HANDCUFFED a brief case to his wrist and instructed him to drive around until cg radio'd him back and had him come pick him up and drive him to the airport.
This next part I am not completely sure of..........it seems to me that later I was told that the brief case contained documents transferring the copyrights of VPWs works from The Way International to The Way of Great Britain, Ltd. *It would not seem out of character for cg to have used coercion or even blackmail of some sort to acheive his own ends, he was ruthless and brutal, as 3/4 of the people that ever met him back then can attest to.* Whatever happened at the "public" clergy meetings, it was NOTHING compared to what happened behind the private curtain between cg and the twi trustees, and Donna of course
Radar
*edit reflects inserted sentence*
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GT
Let me see if I can manually pull it in. I'd like to preserve who posted what and the dates. Let me see what I can do.
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GT
I have the first 8 posts pulled in. Slow process.
I'll finish it latter. Until then, the topic is closed until the remaining posts are pulled in.
The topic is over in the GreaseSpot 101 forum.
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Belle
Thank you soooooo much, GT!!
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Belle
Here's a link to the thread, y'all.
A Night that will Live in Infamy
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
belle thanks for posting that
all i can say is wow
everytime i read more about loy and veepee the more i stand in wonder of thier evil
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WhiteDove
So is the score two people who were there saw no gun?
And some that heard about it but were not there that saw a gun?
This is interesting!
When do we get to the part when he said Click Click GO ahead make my day......Trustees
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WordWolf
No.
So far, Radar personally said that cg
"was seated at the desk on the auditorium stage,
a loaded handgun within his reach."
Then again,
it's possible that different people are referring to different
meetings on different dates.
This one Radar mentioned was April 23, 1986,
the public release of the PoP paper.
THAT meeting, cg was armed.
He wasn't the only one, either.
"Outside the executive back entrance to the auditorium,
Don Wierwille was being physically detained by a HEAVILY ARMED
member of the Twi safety department."
"Don was held OUTSIDE the back entrance by armed guard to insure
the fact that he would not go onstage and interrupt the reading of the paper."
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J0nny Ling0
Yes! Salmon. Lots and lots of them. And Dolly Varden trout. And halibut. great big ones. The biggest one I have hauled in was a 260 pounder. But, that was a halibut I "caught" while commercial fishing on a long liner. But man oh man, I harpooned him with a harponn that had a tip that came off with a lanyard on it, and then we hauled in in by line and then gaffed him and hauled him aboard and then the skipper shot him with .357 magnum (the gun!) and put a hole in the deck of his own boat, the numbskull!
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