all the kids were home getting old enough to find their own visions in life and fun!
I had a great job and was in college full time and a wonderful town house that was beautiful.
I saw my fellowship coordinators and BL Suffer and I mean in MISERY most of the time.
They still had small kids had to relocate and lose jobs and of course thought God would instantly provide an imediate new job that would cater to all the twi schedule , when it didnt happen and they ended up working at a fast food joint they got discouraged. and more and more in poverty. but saving to go to another "advance class" car in shambles always begging believers to abbysit or ride them some where.. very very needy and these where my LEADERS!!!
It was all the devils faught tho you know..
the corps did have it worse my God I have aksed why would anyone compromise in the manner they did then?
and of course always keep up appearances.
I had learned to say NO and mean and do it without guilt.
so many did not have the courage to say NO and they were desperate.. and I often said I was sorry and I was but I was not going to join them either...
you know I did back stab a "leader" back then by telling a friend NOT to babysit for free anymore, and I felt soo guilty . today I would not but I did then.
Guess what way freak dismissed me like yesterdays old garbage, when I left or just stop going so much and the other just plain old "believer " and I am still dear friends.
Like an eagle
it WAS insane the hoops and riducalas guilt and needs they demanded.
and unneccesary....
I would ask them why ? and they would huff and puff like the world would end if I didnt.
but here is what gave me strengthe to move on completely The arrogance the high and mighty attitude the self righteous ness the attitude of the fellwship coordiantor with the broken down of crap car, rented house kids out of control and a minimum wage job.
they thought God loved them more , they really believed they were better than the rest of the world on some different dimension of reality a higher and better spiritual plane of discernment you know saving the world of all the world!!!
it was like they were buying Gods favor with the tasks the way gave them . I honestly believe they believed that. if they did not comply life would end.
but their life so sucked from appearances anyway and their needs were so great , and I never complied hardly ever I would help if I could but I had a very happy blessed life and did my own thing.
selfish ? you bet!!! better to do for my own than for them I figured. I knew they would drop me in a moment if somone "better" or had taken more classes than me said to. I was right.
it was a bible class I kept a perspective always did ..
they thought they were fairys wondering the earth with magic potions to fix everything .
except their own life.
you know how they say addicted folks have to hit rock bottom?
no crap. they did and then some over and over.
it was NOT fun to watch it was pathetic , but me and Jesus went along for the ride and I helped where I could and never never let them get me to the point where I "JOINED" the mess.
it was a bible class people do not swell your head. hello.
I was marked and avoided and I still went back like I gave a rats foot what people thought of me right? no.
no shame no fear , just me and the LORD.
I took many out in the 90's and went back for more.. In the eighties I brought many in .. it was strange for me as well .
&$*# and gigles was the way for me...
still is.
yeah the way sure changed and I sure changed but I have to tell ya LIKE AN EAGLE God never ever did.
The 90's were like the frog in the boiling water, changes crept up so that you hardly noticed them until you were agreeing to things that you never would have considered had they been sprung on you out of nowhere.
We got re-involved in TWI in late 1990 after having been away from them for a little over 7 years.
Initially things were pretty innocuous, the Corps couple who were Limb Coordinators were pretty low key, and there weren't a lot of demands made upon our time. We went to fellowships when we wanted to, signed up for the classes that we could afford and wanted to be in, no major problems.
Parrallel to this were the so-called Leadership Tapes that were circulating. It wasn't presented to me as a requirement, until a few years later when I wanted to go to an Advanced Class Special. Since I hadn't experienced the POP, the "loyalty oath" letter, the mass firing and defections, etc, all that I heard was Martindale's side of the story. It didn't make a lot of sense, but I chalked that up to there being a gap in my own TWI timeline. I pretty much accepted Martindale's version of events, partly because I didn't know anyone who could supply me with any other version.
In 1992 we got a different LC, also pretty low-key and inoffenseive, things went along pretty much as before.
At ROA 1993 two teams of WOW's were sent to Nebraska. We were not assigned a LC of our own, but were "overseen" by the Region Coordinator. Once again, no real change of pace.
It was at ROA 1994 that Martindale had the meetings with WOWvets, Way Corps, and Advanced Class grads to rant about the "homo threat". In my view, this is when things began to change. We were sent a new LC, a newly minted Corps grad who was hot to "smoke out homos" and root out "unproductive evil".
I don't know if there was a consious decision to make us into corp, but I know the commitment that was demanded of us was of the that of the caliber of "the faithful remnant".
As a matter of fact I felt that there was less of a gap between the Way Corps and Joe believer at first. Everyone in the ministry was required to be of one mind, insediously brought about by endless "works of the flesh". Until, some of these corps people began to grow egos bigger than their brains and those of us who spoke up were "treacherous" to others in the land of milk and honey. We were to be "whipped" into shape. As Oakspear said, it insideously crept in over a period of time. The frog in the boiling water analogy says it just right.
We were taught at at least one STS that any "murmurings" in the tents at night of those in the Promised Land, against leadership, could cause others in the "camp" to have calamity brought upon them. Or something to that affect. They used an old testament story to convey that message. Little bit of mind control there wouldn't you say?
And no oldies, I didn't freely avail myself after awhile. At first I did, as I too went back in the 90's after not fellowshipping with them for a while due to the fog years. I didn't take any side during the fog years - my heart was just broken over how the ministry had been fractured by POP and VPW's death. I just walked away and did my thing. I still believed in the precepts though and endeavored to apply them in my life. Then I asked to come back because I wanted my teenager to take PFAL because my memories of TWI were quite fond. It wasn't long after that that I realized things were real different there. I came back just as the last class of WAP was being given for the grads of the ministry. Before it would be open to new folks. They "allowed" my daughter to take it also even though she had not had PFAL.
After awhile, I stayed because of FEAR due to the erroneous teachings that began to become more prevalant and prevelant. Slowly grace was replaced with law - and love was replaced with fear and oppression and depression. We suppressed our emotions, our intellect, our reasoning, our own judgement, our own thoughts and any ability for God to work in us. It was all what came down from the BOT that we were to believe, feel, do etc.
I guess I am saying these things because I just finished reading the court records on the Peeler case. Rosiefox Riverpuke is such a liar. She claims several things in that court record that I know for a fact are lies.
Q: paraphrased: What does the Way teach their followers about tithing?
A: paraphrased: It teaches them to give freely. Tithe is the minimum amount according to God's Word and if they share more than that is fine.
Excuse me while I wipe the 15% of spittle off of my face here in the front row of the auditorium at a STS.
Q: paraphrased: Is being out of debt a requirement for anything?
A: paraphrased: No.
Q: paraphrased: How about if you want to be leadership?
A: Yes, if you want to be a leader you must be debt free.
HUH?? I thought there is no debt requirement for anything in the ministry.
Q: paraphrased: But in terms of followers, if I am a follower and want to mortgage a big house, I can do that?
A: paraphrased: Yes.
Q: paraphrased: Does the Way monitor the amount of contribution if the follower is giving 10%?
A: paraphrased: No
Other statements paraphrased:
*No one was ever required to go to fellowship
*Its not that they must attend, it is that they may attend a fellowship.
*Not necessary to attend all the classes to be a state coordinator.
Twice she referred in her testimony to the way being a "church". Convenient for them sometimes I am guessing.
I guess I am saying these things because I just finished reading the court records on the Peeler case. Rosiefox Riverpuke is such a liar. She claims several things in that court record that I know for a fact are lies
I would have to presume that on 04/06/2006, in a hearing before the TN Appellate Court in Knoxville, those attorneys assigned to represent TWI will once again refan the flames of Rosie et al's misrepresentations. I guess we will see if the facts of the rank and file experience as presented by the Peeler's Counsel will prevail over TWI's conveniently promoted illusions. At least the hearing is close to April Fool's day.
The 90's were about thinking you knew the rules and then finding out they'd all changed at the last phone hook-up.
Leadership wasn't interested in teaching the Word, or getting new people involved. Their focus turned to whether or not people were in the proper dress code, or that their homes were clean by TWI standards (don't forget to dry your sink!). Leagalism was abundant - not love and certainly not grace!
LCM totally forgot what VPW taught in the PFAL Foundational class and totally mixed up the Old Testament with the New Testament and Grace administration. Suddenly, the believers, those with Christ-in-you, were worried about if they were going to make it into the Promised Land. Oh, yeah - and I left out the part about the covered bridge. What was he smoking when he came up with that covered bridge part? Scheesch!
The 90's were about the ending of the WOW program and the beginning of the Disciples of The Way program - and if that new name doesn't scream cult, say it outloud in a crowded airport five times and see how many people totally avoid you! The ROA was ended, and thus, contact with your friends from all over the USA that you'd always see at the ROA... but then again, there was never any telling of who was M&A'ed or who was still standing from one day to the next.
It was also about the introduction of the Way of Abundance and Power Class, which was the worst ride of scripture and "teaching" (I use that term loosly) that I've ever witnessed. Again, I think LCM forgot PFAL.
The 90's were one bad trip. I pi$$ed away my 20's in a lousey marriage and with a dead ministry (I'm not bitter - just honest.) I'm thankful I got out when I did...
Q: paraphrased: What does the Way teach their followers about tithing?
A: paraphrased: It teaches them to give freely. Tithe is the minimum amount according to God's Word and if they share more than that is fine.
I can see why they'd rather settle than go to a court and spiel this bile in front of a prosecuting lawyer and jury of their "peers". (would that mean there'd have to be 2 or 3 double talkers in the jury )
RR lays it wide open on several counts in her deposition -
- followers. What exactly is a follower of the Way?
- "before you use 'freely avail' again, pleasee answer this - what is it that a follower does that a non-follower
doesn't do?"
- how does a follower differ from a "member" that other churches have?
- what benefits are there to a follower versus a non-follower?
- If a person tithes, are they a follower of the Way?
- If a person doesn't tithe, can they still be a a follower of the Way and receive all the benefits as if they did?
- How does a tithe to the Way differ from a charge or or payment?
- What does a person benefit from if they give more than a tithe?
And the million dollar questions -
- what if a person tithes and freely gives an additional 5 per cent of their income, as you say the bible supports but doesn't give it specifically to the Way but to other charities and causes that are also supported by what you teach....does a person lose any benefits they would otherwise have if they gave it directly to the Way?
- would a person have to prove that to you, with receipts or verification of some kind?
- if so, why?
The answers they mouth today are based on *wink*wink* style answers devised to avoid saying the truth and the facts - "we want you to support the Way International, by giving to us and if you don't give to us we don't consider you qualified to receive the benefits of a member. As a member you can then receive whatever we determine we want to give back to you, if anything at all, by way of products or services. By giving you obey God. By giving to the WAY you obey God. Anything else is non-compliance and disobedience to God and we won't allow membership in the Way to that person".
That's what they meant, but they won't say it. All the little ones they're cropping into now don't feel that pressure, yet. The college students and kids get by doing what they want. If you know someone in the "big" there, you get slack.
f the Way changes their rules for EVERYone, regardless of their age, location or tenure AND clarify from their pulpit to everyone what all of thie gobbleydook means, in plain language AND follow that up with matching behavior for a few years, that will mean something.
In the nineties there were a few ways to avoid the leadership heat.
One way was to be well off. A trust fund was best, because then the believer didn't have a pesky job to interfere with ministry stuff.
Another way to avoid the heat was to be a leader yourself, and to have good friends or relatives that backed you up in a high position. Just don't do anything to embarass them!
Also, if you were a leader, a good thing to do for yourself to keep the heat off was to keep people in your fellowship that you could bad mouth to your higher leaders. This made you look spiritual and strong, because you were correcting weakness in your fellowship, just like LCM wanted!
In the nineties there were a few ways to avoid the leadership heat.
One way was to be well off. A trust fund was best, because then the believer didn't have a pesky job to interfere with ministry stuff.
Another way to avoid the heat was to be a leader yourself, and to have good friends or relatives that backed you up in a high position. Just don't do anything to embarass them!
Also, if you were a leader, a good thing to do for yourself to keep the heat off was to keep people in your fellowship that you could bad mouth to your higher leaders. This made you look spiritual and strong, because you were correcting weakness in your fellowship, just like LCM wanted!
That last paragraph it the absolute TRUTH!!!
take the focus off you have the most needy desperate out of control fellowship coordinators you could!
like any good addict or serious co-dependant take the focus off you and surround yourself with as much drama as possible.
Thank you all for posting..Everyone from the 90's definitley had different experiences according to leadership and possible geography..I live on the border of 250 miles from New Knoxville my whole Way life..We seet our faces like flint...Stood against every possible weak moment at any time so we could defeat anything that came our way......we were strong but never able to arrive....arrive at what..we were there the whole time...we just couldnt remember Grace....
My last 2 yrs I helped a fellow believer who had Cancer.....I stood by her side every possible moment I could...including paraying at 2 or 5 in the morning..cutting her long blonde to 1" all over head because it decided to fall out almost all at once..I watched her husband work on cars in the middle of Jan in freezing cold temps in an unheated garage, so he could pay off debt for her to be able to attend Advance Class.
"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even talk, alone; you don't want to 'go out of your way to make trouble.' Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it so not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty."
"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside in the streets, in the general community, 'everyone' is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none."
This is how I think of the 90's in TWI. I got involved with TWI in the 90's. And was relatively isolated from much of the horrors that were going on because I never aspired to be WC, WOW or even to go to the Advanced Class, initially. I only knew TWIts who were in the Orlando area and never really understood or saw the "big picture" of TWI.
I would see injustice after injustice, but I thought that they were isolated incidents. I even thought that some of the people who got into trouble deserved it. Now I'm sorry for ever thinking that and how I might have treated those people.
My experience started with enjoying the learning and feeling like I had answers.
Then the teachings on more "practical" application of what they said the Bible said.
Then increased meetings and increased expectations that we would follow through on the things they said we should be doing.
Then increased accountability and scrutiny of our lives, but I was following all the rules so it wasn't a concern to me.
Then the attacks on people stepped up and became more public and more cruel, but I wasn't involved so it wasn't a concern to me.
Then I got married and started wanting to do some of the things that they said were wrong, like buying a house.
I tried to fight back, but by that time there was no one left to fight with me because everyone was too scared to speak up and those who weren't had already been kicked out.
This is how I think of the 90's in TWI. I got involved with TWI in the 90's. And was relatively isolated from much of the horrors that were going on because I never aspired to be WC, WOW or even to go to the Advanced Class, initially. I only knew TWIts who were in the Orlando area and never really understood or saw the "big picture" of TWI.
I would see injustice after injustice, but I thought that they were isolated incidents. I even thought that some of the people who got into trouble deserved it. Now I'm sorry for ever thinking that and how I might have treated those people.
My experience started with enjoying the learning and feeling like I had answers.
Then the teachings on more "practical" application of what they said the Bible said.
Then increased meetings and increased expectations that we would follow through on the things they said we should be doing.
Then increased accountability and scrutiny of our lives, but I was following all the rules so it wasn't a concern to me.
Then the attacks on people stepped up and became more public and more cruel, but I wasn't involved so it wasn't a concern to me.
Then I got married and started wanting to do some of the things that they said were wrong, like buying a house.
I tried to fight back, but by that time there was no one left to fight with me because everyone was too scared to speak up and those who weren't had already been kicked out.
I agree with bell I was involved then.. but only because of proxy.
I truly didnt care what a dam one of any of them thought anymore I went to love those I could.
it was so very very diffeerent from when I was in love with the way.
I can not understand why anyone would have gotten involved then.
the fear was so bad for "them".
I saw it alot.
many were on the verge of leaving, or like me pulling people out with thereality of life.
I never complied , with leadership, (in the 90's) (I thought they were miricles in the 80's) I went when I wanted how I wanted and would refuse to even open my bible at times. just stare at them.
i talked crap I said my piece. alot
and I was right this whole area fell apart either kicked out or left. including corps sent here to fix things.
the contrast was absolutely amazing.
why did I well I had gotten so many involved I wanted to talk to them about what was going on and many cut me off unless I would go.
I went but my agenda was not to serve or even feel sorry for them. which is the most ironic part of the two decades.
in the 80's we had the power!
in the 90 everyone wanted pity. (the devil theory was so out of control)
One of my observations and conclusions is that the 90s were about proving your loyalty and it center on the 11th commandment. The first 10 you can be forgiven for, you know between you and God, but that 11th one is unforgivable. The 11th commandment is man made. There were many 11th commandments and they were used to put you in the cross hairs to force you to submit to your leaders.
Once the leaders put you under the microscope looking for 11th commandment violations, you either totally submit to them or they put you through either a slow and painful death or a quick execution. These would be carried out in the town square so everybody could see it as a warning to all.
TWI leaders must have learned this from studying the Inqusition or watching one of the Godfather movies
It was all about loyalty. It was an extension of the loyalty letter of the late 80s and also included the general population.
When the agressive Way Corps were sent to our area after ROA '94, the first people that they went after were folks who, frankly, I didn't want around. There were a handful of people who just seemed to drag everybody else down, and at first I was glad that somebody had the balls to confront them. Then the next group of confrontees were folks who I felt needed to tighten things up, then the next group...
Each successive round of confrontations targeted a broader range of behaviors and attitudes. I fully supported (and even encouraged) the initial purges, but became more and more uncomfortable as they progressed. But since they were incremental, I allowed myself to be talked into their biblical correctness.
Eventually, like the poem says, they came for me. If I had been tageted initially, I may have fought back more vigorously, but having supported each wave, and having convinced myself of each wave's rightness, I thought it would be hypocritical to object when I was confronted.
Ex-wayfers who got out before this time period often cannot understand how we subjected ourselves to all the abuse. While we physically could have walked away at any time, we were manipulated in such a way that we believed that we weren't being abused.
In the 80's here anywqys we had such a huge influx of people and classes and people going to corps out wow and parties and coffee shops , I did not see it as much and frankly I do not believe it was going on as much.
Im not kidding when I say some very troubled people got involved , and went into the corps, to many people to really check to see if serious problems were happening and remember most were young and free for the first time in life from mom and dad etc.
I do believe many went as far as they did because they had no where eles to go .
maybe a mental hospital or welfare or drugs.
and that is why they stuck to it to become the leader who terroized the people that got involved in the ninties.
most people had left who knew how it could be and should be in a loving group.
the rest just kissed their way into compliance and with the numbers getting smaller and smaller .. weel it was a recipe for abuse it really was.
I saw it I believed it cause I saw it but I never understand why.
honestly I do not think the 90 had the growth the 80's did,it just did not , and with a smaller number of people you could get hurt easier and pressured more.
the internet the off shoot and people like me who laughed in many faces while watching them be so unhappy and miserable for Gods ministry put a real damper on who joined in the 90's.
many weere those same troubled youth who had no where eles to go. so they took others into the hell they had made for a life in the way.
honestly , it did get worse , now the 80 were not a picnic of glory to god inn the highest either.. but this is the 90's thread.
The 90s is where TWI went about putting a stop to the evil internal to TWI. You know the 3 evils: unproductive evil, harassing evil, and destructive evil.
Unproductive evil – you didn’t do what they wanted you to do.
Harassing evil – you questioned them about what they wanted you to do.
Destructive evil – you expressed your uncertainty about what they wanted you to do to someone else.
90s were wonderful for me, my business prospered, my kids blossomed into real humans with opinions and powerful ideas which came to life, I reported my income only to the IRS, I bought cars on time, houses mortgaged, all the things that are part of life.
I remember coming home from sunday service hook-ups and my father telling my brother and I how what was taught used to be Corps material. as a ministry we were growing strong and needed more meat. How thankful we should be! Dad told us this frequently and with enthusiasm.
Well, my head was fully puffed. At one point I was defending LCM (whom I may have met once in my life) and the ministry with conviction and all to a relative of mine. I used all the phrases.
I one point I said something like "We have the TRUTH!"
I don't know if I can dig it up - I'll try - but there was a great thread on Waydale about the Emporer's New Clothes - I think Orange Cat started it, but we're talking 7 years ago now...
Lemme see if I can find it - you'd like it - your post just now reminded me of it....
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oldiesman
Did you freely avail?
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likeaneagle
and the word didnt have FREECOURSE either...like it says in Thessolonians.
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pond
In the 90's my life was absolutly fantastic!
all the kids were home getting old enough to find their own visions in life and fun!
I had a great job and was in college full time and a wonderful town house that was beautiful.
I saw my fellowship coordinators and BL Suffer and I mean in MISERY most of the time.
They still had small kids had to relocate and lose jobs and of course thought God would instantly provide an imediate new job that would cater to all the twi schedule , when it didnt happen and they ended up working at a fast food joint they got discouraged. and more and more in poverty. but saving to go to another "advance class" car in shambles always begging believers to abbysit or ride them some where.. very very needy and these where my LEADERS!!!
It was all the devils faught tho you know..
the corps did have it worse my God I have aksed why would anyone compromise in the manner they did then?
and of course always keep up appearances.
I had learned to say NO and mean and do it without guilt.
so many did not have the courage to say NO and they were desperate.. and I often said I was sorry and I was but I was not going to join them either...
you know I did back stab a "leader" back then by telling a friend NOT to babysit for free anymore, and I felt soo guilty . today I would not but I did then.
Guess what way freak dismissed me like yesterdays old garbage, when I left or just stop going so much and the other just plain old "believer " and I am still dear friends.
Like an eagle
it WAS insane the hoops and riducalas guilt and needs they demanded.
and unneccesary....
I would ask them why ? and they would huff and puff like the world would end if I didnt.
but here is what gave me strengthe to move on completely The arrogance the high and mighty attitude the self righteous ness the attitude of the fellwship coordiantor with the broken down of crap car, rented house kids out of control and a minimum wage job.
they thought God loved them more , they really believed they were better than the rest of the world on some different dimension of reality a higher and better spiritual plane of discernment you know saving the world of all the world!!!
it was like they were buying Gods favor with the tasks the way gave them . I honestly believe they believed that. if they did not comply life would end.
but their life so sucked from appearances anyway and their needs were so great , and I never complied hardly ever I would help if I could but I had a very happy blessed life and did my own thing.
selfish ? you bet!!! better to do for my own than for them I figured. I knew they would drop me in a moment if somone "better" or had taken more classes than me said to. I was right.
it was a bible class I kept a perspective always did ..
they thought they were fairys wondering the earth with magic potions to fix everything .
except their own life.
you know how they say addicted folks have to hit rock bottom?
no crap. they did and then some over and over.
it was NOT fun to watch it was pathetic , but me and Jesus went along for the ride and I helped where I could and never never let them get me to the point where I "JOINED" the mess.
it was a bible class people do not swell your head. hello.
I was marked and avoided and I still went back like I gave a rats foot what people thought of me right? no.
no shame no fear , just me and the LORD.
I took many out in the 90's and went back for more.. In the eighties I brought many in .. it was strange for me as well .
&$*# and gigles was the way for me...
still is.
yeah the way sure changed and I sure changed but I have to tell ya LIKE AN EAGLE God never ever did.
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Oakspear
The 90's were like the frog in the boiling water, changes crept up so that you hardly noticed them until you were agreeing to things that you never would have considered had they been sprung on you out of nowhere.
We got re-involved in TWI in late 1990 after having been away from them for a little over 7 years.
Initially things were pretty innocuous, the Corps couple who were Limb Coordinators were pretty low key, and there weren't a lot of demands made upon our time. We went to fellowships when we wanted to, signed up for the classes that we could afford and wanted to be in, no major problems.
Parrallel to this were the so-called Leadership Tapes that were circulating. It wasn't presented to me as a requirement, until a few years later when I wanted to go to an Advanced Class Special. Since I hadn't experienced the POP, the "loyalty oath" letter, the mass firing and defections, etc, all that I heard was Martindale's side of the story. It didn't make a lot of sense, but I chalked that up to there being a gap in my own TWI timeline. I pretty much accepted Martindale's version of events, partly because I didn't know anyone who could supply me with any other version.
In 1992 we got a different LC, also pretty low-key and inoffenseive, things went along pretty much as before.
At ROA 1993 two teams of WOW's were sent to Nebraska. We were not assigned a LC of our own, but were "overseen" by the Region Coordinator. Once again, no real change of pace.
It was at ROA 1994 that Martindale had the meetings with WOWvets, Way Corps, and Advanced Class grads to rant about the "homo threat". In my view, this is when things began to change. We were sent a new LC, a newly minted Corps grad who was hot to "smoke out homos" and root out "unproductive evil".
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outofdafog
I don't know if there was a consious decision to make us into corp, but I know the commitment that was demanded of us was of the that of the caliber of "the faithful remnant".
As a matter of fact I felt that there was less of a gap between the Way Corps and Joe believer at first. Everyone in the ministry was required to be of one mind, insediously brought about by endless "works of the flesh". Until, some of these corps people began to grow egos bigger than their brains and those of us who spoke up were "treacherous" to others in the land of milk and honey. We were to be "whipped" into shape. As Oakspear said, it insideously crept in over a period of time. The frog in the boiling water analogy says it just right.
We were taught at at least one STS that any "murmurings" in the tents at night of those in the Promised Land, against leadership, could cause others in the "camp" to have calamity brought upon them. Or something to that affect. They used an old testament story to convey that message. Little bit of mind control there wouldn't you say?
And no oldies, I didn't freely avail myself after awhile. At first I did, as I too went back in the 90's after not fellowshipping with them for a while due to the fog years. I didn't take any side during the fog years - my heart was just broken over how the ministry had been fractured by POP and VPW's death. I just walked away and did my thing. I still believed in the precepts though and endeavored to apply them in my life. Then I asked to come back because I wanted my teenager to take PFAL because my memories of TWI were quite fond. It wasn't long after that that I realized things were real different there. I came back just as the last class of WAP was being given for the grads of the ministry. Before it would be open to new folks. They "allowed" my daughter to take it also even though she had not had PFAL.
After awhile, I stayed because of FEAR due to the erroneous teachings that began to become more prevalant and prevelant. Slowly grace was replaced with law - and love was replaced with fear and oppression and depression. We suppressed our emotions, our intellect, our reasoning, our own judgement, our own thoughts and any ability for God to work in us. It was all what came down from the BOT that we were to believe, feel, do etc.
I guess I am saying these things because I just finished reading the court records on the Peeler case. Rosiefox Riverpuke is such a liar. She claims several things in that court record that I know for a fact are lies.
Q: paraphrased: What does the Way teach their followers about tithing?
A: paraphrased: It teaches them to give freely. Tithe is the minimum amount according to God's Word and if they share more than that is fine.
Excuse me while I wipe the 15% of spittle off of my face here in the front row of the auditorium at a STS.
Q: paraphrased: Is being out of debt a requirement for anything?
A: paraphrased: No.
Q: paraphrased: How about if you want to be leadership?
A: Yes, if you want to be a leader you must be debt free.
HUH?? I thought there is no debt requirement for anything in the ministry.
Q: paraphrased: But in terms of followers, if I am a follower and want to mortgage a big house, I can do that?
A: paraphrased: Yes.
Q: paraphrased: Does the Way monitor the amount of contribution if the follower is giving 10%?
A: paraphrased: No
Other statements paraphrased:
*No one was ever required to go to fellowship
*Its not that they must attend, it is that they may attend a fellowship.
*Not necessary to attend all the classes to be a state coordinator.
Twice she referred in her testimony to the way being a "church". Convenient for them sometimes I am guessing.
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jkboehme
I would have to presume that on 04/06/2006, in a hearing before the TN Appellate Court in Knoxville, those attorneys assigned to represent TWI will once again refan the flames of Rosie et al's misrepresentations. I guess we will see if the facts of the rank and file experience as presented by the Peeler's Counsel will prevail over TWI's conveniently promoted illusions. At least the hearing is close to April Fool's day.
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ChasUFarley
The 90's were about thinking you knew the rules and then finding out they'd all changed at the last phone hook-up.
Leadership wasn't interested in teaching the Word, or getting new people involved. Their focus turned to whether or not people were in the proper dress code, or that their homes were clean by TWI standards (don't forget to dry your sink!). Leagalism was abundant - not love and certainly not grace!
LCM totally forgot what VPW taught in the PFAL Foundational class and totally mixed up the Old Testament with the New Testament and Grace administration. Suddenly, the believers, those with Christ-in-you, were worried about if they were going to make it into the Promised Land. Oh, yeah - and I left out the part about the covered bridge. What was he smoking when he came up with that covered bridge part? Scheesch!
The 90's were about the ending of the WOW program and the beginning of the Disciples of The Way program - and if that new name doesn't scream cult, say it outloud in a crowded airport five times and see how many people totally avoid you! The ROA was ended, and thus, contact with your friends from all over the USA that you'd always see at the ROA... but then again, there was never any telling of who was M&A'ed or who was still standing from one day to the next.
It was also about the introduction of the Way of Abundance and Power Class, which was the worst ride of scripture and "teaching" (I use that term loosly) that I've ever witnessed. Again, I think LCM forgot PFAL.
The 90's were one bad trip. I pi$$ed away my 20's in a lousey marriage and with a dead ministry (I'm not bitter - just honest.) I'm thankful I got out when I did...
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socks
I can see why they'd rather settle than go to a court and spiel this bile in front of a prosecuting lawyer and jury of their "peers". (would that mean there'd have to be 2 or 3 double talkers in the jury
)
RR lays it wide open on several counts in her deposition -
- followers. What exactly is a follower of the Way?
- "before you use 'freely avail' again, pleasee answer this - what is it that a follower does that a non-follower
doesn't do?"
- how does a follower differ from a "member" that other churches have?
- what benefits are there to a follower versus a non-follower?
- If a person tithes, are they a follower of the Way?
- If a person doesn't tithe, can they still be a a follower of the Way and receive all the benefits as if they did?
- How does a tithe to the Way differ from a charge or or payment?
- What does a person benefit from if they give more than a tithe?
And the million dollar questions -
- what if a person tithes and freely gives an additional 5 per cent of their income, as you say the bible supports but doesn't give it specifically to the Way but to other charities and causes that are also supported by what you teach....does a person lose any benefits they would otherwise have if they gave it directly to the Way?
- would a person have to prove that to you, with receipts or verification of some kind?
- if so, why?
The answers they mouth today are based on *wink*wink* style answers devised to avoid saying the truth and the facts - "we want you to support the Way International, by giving to us and if you don't give to us we don't consider you qualified to receive the benefits of a member. As a member you can then receive whatever we determine we want to give back to you, if anything at all, by way of products or services. By giving you obey God. By giving to the WAY you obey God. Anything else is non-compliance and disobedience to God and we won't allow membership in the Way to that person".
That's what they meant, but they won't say it. All the little ones they're cropping into now don't feel that pressure, yet. The college students and kids get by doing what they want. If you know someone in the "big" there, you get slack.
f the Way changes their rules for EVERYone, regardless of their age, location or tenure AND clarify from their pulpit to everyone what all of thie gobbleydook means, in plain language AND follow that up with matching behavior for a few years, that will mean something.
Anything else is just talk. Cheap talk. IMO.
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Bramble
In the nineties there were a few ways to avoid the leadership heat.
One way was to be well off. A trust fund was best, because then the believer didn't have a pesky job to interfere with ministry stuff.
Another way to avoid the heat was to be a leader yourself, and to have good friends or relatives that backed you up in a high position. Just don't do anything to embarass them!
Also, if you were a leader, a good thing to do for yourself to keep the heat off was to keep people in your fellowship that you could bad mouth to your higher leaders. This made you look spiritual and strong, because you were correcting weakness in your fellowship, just like LCM wanted!
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pond
That last paragraph it the absolute TRUTH!!!
take the focus off you have the most needy desperate out of control fellowship coordinators you could!
like any good addict or serious co-dependant take the focus off you and surround yourself with as much drama as possible.
it works .
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likeaneagle
Thank you all for posting..Everyone from the 90's definitley had different experiences according to leadership and possible geography..I live on the border of 250 miles from New Knoxville my whole Way life..We seet our faces like flint...Stood against every possible weak moment at any time so we could defeat anything that came our way......we were strong but never able to arrive....arrive at what..we were there the whole time...we just couldnt remember Grace....
My last 2 yrs I helped a fellow believer who had Cancer.....I stood by her side every possible moment I could...including paraying at 2 or 5 in the morning..cutting her long blonde to 1" all over head because it decided to fall out almost all at once..I watched her husband work on cars in the middle of Jan in freezing cold temps in an unheated garage, so he could pay off debt for her to be able to attend Advance Class.
Did I freely avail??
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Belle
from Grease Spot Way Dale Editorials
This is how I think of the 90's in TWI. I got involved with TWI in the 90's. And was relatively isolated from much of the horrors that were going on because I never aspired to be WC, WOW or even to go to the Advanced Class, initially. I only knew TWIts who were in the Orlando area and never really understood or saw the "big picture" of TWI.
I would see injustice after injustice, but I thought that they were isolated incidents. I even thought that some of the people who got into trouble deserved it.
Now I'm sorry for ever thinking that and how I might have treated those people.
My experience started with enjoying the learning and feeling like I had answers.
Then the teachings on more "practical" application of what they said the Bible said.
Then increased meetings and increased expectations that we would follow through on the things they said we should be doing.
Then increased accountability and scrutiny of our lives, but I was following all the rules so it wasn't a concern to me.
Then the attacks on people stepped up and became more public and more cruel, but I wasn't involved so it wasn't a concern to me.
Then I got married and started wanting to do some of the things that they said were wrong, like buying a house.
I tried to fight back, but by that time there was no one left to fight with me because everyone was too scared to speak up and those who weren't had already been kicked out.
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skyrider
(((Belle))))
Brilliant post. Absolutely brilliant.
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pond
I agree with bell I was involved then.. but only because of proxy.
I truly didnt care what a dam one of any of them thought anymore I went to love those I could.
it was so very very diffeerent from when I was in love with the way.
I can not understand why anyone would have gotten involved then.
the fear was so bad for "them".
I saw it alot.
many were on the verge of leaving, or like me pulling people out with thereality of life.
I never complied , with leadership, (in the 90's) (I thought they were miricles in the 80's) I went when I wanted how I wanted and would refuse to even open my bible at times. just stare at them.
i talked crap I said my piece. alot
and I was right this whole area fell apart either kicked out or left. including corps sent here to fix things.
the contrast was absolutely amazing.
why did I well I had gotten so many involved I wanted to talk to them about what was going on and many cut me off unless I would go.
I went but my agenda was not to serve or even feel sorry for them. which is the most ironic part of the two decades.
in the 80's we had the power!
in the 90 everyone wanted pity. (the devil theory was so out of control)
both were illusions.
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MountainTopCO
One of my observations and conclusions is that the 90s were about proving your loyalty and it center on the 11th commandment. The first 10 you can be forgiven for, you know between you and God, but that 11th one is unforgivable. The 11th commandment is man made. There were many 11th commandments and they were used to put you in the cross hairs to force you to submit to your leaders.
Once the leaders put you under the microscope looking for 11th commandment violations, you either totally submit to them or they put you through either a slow and painful death or a quick execution. These would be carried out in the town square so everybody could see it as a warning to all.
TWI leaders must have learned this from studying the Inqusition or watching one of the Godfather movies
It was all about loyalty. It was an extension of the loyalty letter of the late 80s and also included the general population.
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likeaneagle
It was a battle between men and men......
no one won.....both sides got badly brused..
I had no clue who CG was or any details of meetings. what I have learned here has been eye opening..plus..
God is God in my book..
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WordWolf
"First the Nazis came.
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me-
and there was no one left to speak out for me."
-Martin Niemoller.
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Oakspear
That is very appropriate WW.
When the agressive Way Corps were sent to our area after ROA '94, the first people that they went after were folks who, frankly, I didn't want around. There were a handful of people who just seemed to drag everybody else down, and at first I was glad that somebody had the balls to confront them. Then the next group of confrontees were folks who I felt needed to tighten things up, then the next group...
Each successive round of confrontations targeted a broader range of behaviors and attitudes. I fully supported (and even encouraged) the initial purges, but became more and more uncomfortable as they progressed. But since they were incremental, I allowed myself to be talked into their biblical correctness.
Eventually, like the poem says, they came for me. If I had been tageted initially, I may have fought back more vigorously, but having supported each wave, and having convinced myself of each wave's rightness, I thought it would be hypocritical to object when I was confronted.
Ex-wayfers who got out before this time period often cannot understand how we subjected ourselves to all the abuse. While we physically could have walked away at any time, we were manipulated in such a way that we believed that we weren't being abused.
Frog in the boiling water.
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pond
Oak
your right I didnt understand it.
In the 80's here anywqys we had such a huge influx of people and classes and people going to corps out wow and parties and coffee shops , I did not see it as much and frankly I do not believe it was going on as much.
Im not kidding when I say some very troubled people got involved , and went into the corps, to many people to really check to see if serious problems were happening and remember most were young and free for the first time in life from mom and dad etc.
I do believe many went as far as they did because they had no where eles to go .
maybe a mental hospital or welfare or drugs.
and that is why they stuck to it to become the leader who terroized the people that got involved in the ninties.
most people had left who knew how it could be and should be in a loving group.
the rest just kissed their way into compliance and with the numbers getting smaller and smaller .. weel it was a recipe for abuse it really was.
I saw it I believed it cause I saw it but I never understand why.
honestly I do not think the 90 had the growth the 80's did,it just did not , and with a smaller number of people you could get hurt easier and pressured more.
the internet the off shoot and people like me who laughed in many faces while watching them be so unhappy and miserable for Gods ministry put a real damper on who joined in the 90's.
many weere those same troubled youth who had no where eles to go. so they took others into the hell they had made for a life in the way.
honestly , it did get worse , now the 80 were not a picnic of glory to god inn the highest either.. but this is the 90's thread.
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MountainTopCO
The 90s is where TWI went about putting a stop to the evil internal to TWI. You know the 3 evils: unproductive evil, harassing evil, and destructive evil.
Unproductive evil – you didn’t do what they wanted you to do.
Harassing evil – you questioned them about what they wanted you to do.
Destructive evil – you expressed your uncertainty about what they wanted you to do to someone else.
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HAPe4me
90s were wonderful for me, my business prospered, my kids blossomed into real humans with opinions and powerful ideas which came to life, I reported my income only to the IRS, I bought cars on time, houses mortgaged, all the things that are part of life.
Of course, I had left TWI long before THAT!
~HAP
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Bolshevik
What a great thread.
I remember coming home from sunday service hook-ups and my father telling my brother and I how what was taught used to be Corps material. as a ministry we were growing strong and needed more meat. How thankful we should be! Dad told us this frequently and with enthusiasm.
Well, my head was fully puffed. At one point I was defending LCM (whom I may have met once in my life) and the ministry with conviction and all to a relative of mine. I used all the phrases.
I one point I said something like "We have the TRUTH!"
"What truth?" they asked calmly.
I didn't have an answer.
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ChasUFarley
Bolshevik -
Profound moment, wasn't it?
I don't know if I can dig it up - I'll try - but there was a great thread on Waydale about the Emporer's New Clothes - I think Orange Cat started it, but we're talking 7 years ago now...
Lemme see if I can find it - you'd like it - your post just now reminded me of it....
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