Well, since said image is gone - and from what I've read, I'm glad I missed it....
I find it interesting that someone who posts about how anti-VPW we all seem to be (many of us, anyhow), seems to hold a man, who:
* misinterpreted the Bible
* plagerized
* seemed to have an anger mangement problem
* chased skirts & cheated on his wife many times
* abused his power
* etc.
* etc.
* etc.
...seems to hold him (VPW) in higher esteem than the many posters here on GSC who knew (knew KNEW) him in PERSON and who give very credible stories about THE MAN that they met. In fact, depending on when the person who started this post was born, it is very likely that VPW had already 'fallen asleep' before said thread starter took his or her first breath.... This leads me to believe that said thread starter really didn't do much homework before starting this thread (i.e. really read old threads, etc., and check the consistancy of many posters stories.)
Personally, I'm glad I never met VPW. I think I would have been disappointed. The times I met LCM were bad enough, and his ministry was supposed to "establish" VPW's ministry. But I am glad I took PFAL - I've always said that - it changed my life for the better - and the ministry I was in didn't put VPW above Jesus Christ, because LCM was already in that positon! But, that's just my experience. I'm sure someone will try to argue with me about it, like said thread starter did on the GSC Radio forum.... but then said thread starter seems to like to jump to conclusions...
In my whole life I have never been around crucifixes or images of the slain Christ except on rare occasions and anytime one is presented I find it shocking. Bad? NO, I don't think so, but I have to wonder at the possibility of people exposed on a daily or even several times a week to those images become use to them and the respect those images deserve is diminished because they become to common place.
Sorry, just thinking out loud. But the biggest offence I have to the image is now that's the subject and VP gets off again. Was that the point?
This is related to the topic but slightly different. As we know, TWI never really emphasized the cross or the crucifixion choosing rather to discuss the resurrection hence the Dove pin that was so popular. Crosses were verboten and TWI routinely dismissed mainstream denominations for talking up the crucifixion even going so far as to suggest that the devil had somehow made non Way churches blind to the resurrection and what it accomplished. Actually I never though this nor did I see it in practive in any of the churches I attended before or after TWI. Sure. Lots of churches have crosses though they are there to remind the congregants of the price that was paid and as a call to a better standard of living. I never once heard sermons which glorified death or that fixated uniquely on the crucifixion to the exclusion of the resurrection. In TWI I did appreciate the teachings on being new and free in christ and that was cool but little did I realize that many wrong things were accomplished under that concept - that being "free" gave license to do all sorts of things as long as one "could handle it". One of the strangest things I ever heard while in TWI was from a Corps guy who told me something along the lines of the following. (It was in 1976 that I heard this so I can't recall the exact language).
"Do you know that Doctor is so in tap that he can check out scenes that for you and I would result in our being out of fellowship ? He can do that because he has renewed his mind to such a high level that he can resist temptations that would blow the aveage believer's mind. I hope I can be like that one day".
I was floored then and I'm floored now. Little did I know that this kind of thinking was common enough that people starting using it to sleep around and/or do whatever they wanted as long as the "could handle it" and "had their minds renewed". Later from reading Waydale and Greasespot I realized that there were in fact those people who thought so highly of VPW that he was something special and therefore deserving of indulgences for his bad behavior. And some who thought that he was in fact connected to God in a way similar to how some feel about the Pope. Of course in that case The Pope is the counterfeit to VPW's genuine. At times it really does seem to me that some people actually worship VPW and perhaps feel that sticking up for him and trying to get his problems dismissed from consideration will make God look more fondly upon anyone who would defend VPW.
I'm not sure I would post a picture about any of this but I can certainly understand why the idea and resulting action occurred. I've posted that some people feel that VPW is on the right hand of God in place of Jesus Christ. I mean all that talk in TWI of the absent christ suggested that JC was basically in a glass case somewhere with a sign that says "break only when its time for the Return - of course for the benefit of Way believers only". The absent christ thing was a mechanism to get your minds
ready for the "present truth" and the latest homosexual tirades (they were blamed for most everyting were't they ? Craig's
hairloss ? "Homos infiltrated HQ"). Anyway lots of these "displacement" strategies were in place long before LCM's heyday. I mean that whole "The Teacher" thing said it all. You write your question to "The Teacher" and he answers all your questions.
Let "The Teacher" what a particular verse "REALLY" means - which is another way of saying, if you hang with TWI then we can do this for you on a regualr basis - give you the TRUE meaning and how to apply it. VPW actively sought to displace the
Bible with Way classes, books, and classes. Sure. The Bible was there but how many people had wide margined bibles
crammed full of Way notes. You didn't read the bible you read what TWI had told you about the bible first. Hmmm. Its it "thoroughly" or "throughly" ? I wonder. Look. VPW knew what he was doing from a very early time - from the power struggle
that united the West faction under his power. That had nothing to do with "The Word" and everything to do with a massive
Well, if nothing else this seems to have scared CK off - where ya at?
No wingnut, speaking for myself, again, that wasn't the point. Not to worry, If VPW is getting off the hook it won't be for long.
My personal point was that if a person takes a picture of someone, say Daffy Duck, or George Bush, or let's say even me cause God knows I myself suffer deeply everyday in ways that only I know and if everyone else did I'd be given the Mother Teresa pin for good behavior for sure, and put it on the body of Jesus on the cross, it would be weird, to me. I would always respond the same way. That's all.
If the point was to say "Daffy Duck set himself up to replace Jesus Christ", I'd think hmmm. OKay. But the use of Jesus's crucifixion to prove that point, while an important one, would be weird to me. But that's me. I guess I'm a stick-in-the-spud. So be it.
This is America, the good old USA and it's the constitutional right of ever citizen to pi$$ and moan about anything they see fit to, when and where they want to and in whatever way they want to and to the extent that if there's any justice they'll get a government grant to fund it. While I can't honestly use tax dollars to fund my personal peeves, I'm serious, some countries I'd be picking fleas out of my cell mates hair for complaining so much sometimes. I proudly exercise my right to express my inestimable opinion. I'm a good citizen. I highly encourage everyone to do likewise.
diazbro, I think you've hit on an excellent description of the "absent Christ" doctrine as it's effected so many people. Even using the word "absent" puts that in people's heads. It says "He's not here".
Digging into Way teaching, the "present" Christ was in each one of us, the pneuma hagion, the "Christ in you". The body of Christ, a collective pressence.
That presence would then be lived as each person takes their "place" in the body, as described in Ephesians.
Something very much like this is taught in the church I go to sometimes, but it's different in some key areas. One, that the presence of Christ Himself, in each person's life, is a personal expression of a "living" and "present" Christ. For want of a better word to describe it He has an "identity" that's immediate and knowable. Christ is looked to directly as redeemer, mediator, savior, and head. We ourselves live and function with our own place. There's less of a mystical muddle about who Jesus Christ is when looked at that way I think. While it's difficult to picture exactly who, where and what He is now, it's a part of the Christian life for that to be opened up to each individual through their prayer life, study and guidance within the fellowship of others. It's a task of the spirit to open up God to us and Christ is our shepherd. We need an immediate and personal relationship developing or we lose that pastoring we need from Him.
I think Way teaching led many people to understand the presence of Christ as their own presence....in a sense that "the mind of Christ" is primarily manifested in their own. Christ as a risen, living individual, while "spriit", is subjugated to my own actions and "believing" then. Christ only lives when I let Him live, in other words.
To use terms we're familiar with, that makes sense to the 5 senses man, but it subverts the spriitual man and again, the use of the word absent speaks loudly. Paul taught that while many in his time had known Jesus as a man, they no longer knew Him that way, for obvious reasons. Knowing Him was still possible, but as Paul teaches, different than knowing the guy they had been with "in the flesh".
I thought of something else today about the picture Mark posted: If I were an innie coming here because I was thinking about maybe departing from the prevailing promised place, one look at that image would send me in the other direction. Sometimes less is more.
You want us to suggest a replacement, Mark? Sorry. Not my job. I think the best form of censorship is self-censorship, preferably of the variety that occurs before the bell's already been rung. It's too late for that, isn't it?
Mark, you're free to post anything you care to, if it's okay with Paw and his moderators. And I'm free to not like it and to change my opinion of you (hint: it used to be better) as a result.
Regarding VPW's children: They probably know more than anyone how people fawned over their father. That doesn't mean the image of their father's head stuck on the crucified Christ wouldn't be distasteful or even painful for them to see.
Socks, and ex10, you've written many wise words in this thread. Thank you both. (I'm sure others have, too, but those are the ones that I remember without going back through the whole thread.)
Linzee,
Sorry, but I'm not terribly concerned with anybody's opinion of me. So if you're disappointed, that's your privilege. Likewise with anybody else who posts here. I started off being intensely disliked by many...I'll leave being intensely disliked by many. That's all part of life.
I suggest you re-examine page one of this thread. The comment made in regards to his children did cause me to severely reduce the contrast on the picture...if you know what it is, you'll still be able to see it; else it won't be apparent. I think you'll be pleased. Keep in mind that the ONLY reason I did this was because of sensitivity for his surviving family members; no other reason would have caused me to do so.
And to think that I had all but forgotten the" so spiritual" crap that flowed so freely from the greatest of VPW worshipers mouths, awwwwwwwww Dr is so spiritual he could mess hisself and not break fellowship! But then they were basically following their Teachers lead, because Dr so lovingly shared that in one of his many masterful classes that he used to teach so he could promote being touched by his masterful hand to all the babes in his kingdom.
Of course it had to be the absent Christ as no one with any brains left would want to admit Jesus knew what was going on in that bus, or what new meanings had been given to ministering. Awwwwww, but the Dr was so spiritual he could have sex with a young follower and not even enjoy it!
Now it comes back VP sharing how we just couldn't shock him, that some of his keeeeddddss would try to go and tattle on each other, but he had that renewed mind! Code for whatever you come up with I am doing worse, so your biting into babe time, move on!
The request to remove the offensive pic of a crucified VPW was not about adulation of VPW but rather just about plain, human decency.
And yes, absolutely, this HURTS the Wierwille family whether one likes them or not. They may have known of his faults but they surely loved him just as much as we loved our parents.
For the love of God, let's not be animals on this site. This goes far beyond personal flaming.
If this is what this thread produces, bloody images of VPW, then perhaps there is a REASON TWI wants to search ex-members coming in to the Sunday Services.
Let's be civil on this thread and this site, or end the thread.
Sorry, but I'm not terribly concerned with anybody's opinion of me. So if you're disappointed, that's your privilege. Likewise with anybody else who posts here. I started off being intensely disliked by many...I'll leave being intensely disliked by many. That's all part of life.
Mark --- (for the record) ---
I have NEVER disliked you (intensely, or otherwise).
I've disagreed at times, but that falls into another camp totally.
And if I recollect correct -- this is the first time I have thought a post of yours offensive.
Please --- keep on with the words, and the links you provide.
They suit you, and make your point much more efficaciously. :)
quote: firmly believe in only telling MY STORY, and nobody elses. VPW and the Mrs. were very kind and gracious to me. And that's the truth. I had experiences with VP that cause me to believe, that he was given a powerful "gift" ie "ministry" or whatever you want to call it. I think that he did hear the voice of God at certain times, and did have a powerful capacity to "minister" to people. But I also think he squandered it, by allowing SIN to permeate his life.
I don't minimize the damage he did to some of my friends. That's the paradox of WHO HE WAS. He could be wonderful, loving, kind, one minute, and mean, arrogant and intolerant the next. Is this any big mystery? Haven't we all had people like that in our lives? People we looked up to, who turned out to be dismally disappointing in ways that we were not aware of, in our naive youth?
I have very mixed feelings about VP and the Way. VP in specific, the Way in general. I had always tried to be honest in telling my story. If Johniam, or anybody else thinks that is disingenuous, then welcome to life.
That's beautiful! Not disingenuous. VP did good AND VP sinned. That's all I've said.
Goey, if you want to "demand" anything from me, get a subpoena. I have no time for your silliness. The only one with blinders on is YOU!
As for Mark's picture, I think he was aiming his message at people like me. So what? He is a proud member of a religion that thinks the crucifiction of Christ is something to be celebrated and partied for; a religion that has been misrepresenting Christ for over 1600 years. I'm not surprised he would post that. He can post all the pictures he wants; I don't care.
Don't you uptight zealots have a demonstration to attend overseas with a few angry Muslims? Don't forget your burkhas...
I must have missed the death threats, of course we all know Socks types in code. It's that or someone's judgement is all screwed up and their judgements aren't to be trusted.
What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good.
I've posted that some people feel that VPW is on the right hand of God in place of Jesus Christ. I mean all that talk in TWI of the absent christ suggested that JC was basically in a glass case somewhere with a sign that says "break only when its time for the Return - of course for the benefit of Way believers only". The absent christ thing was a mechanism to get your minds ready for the "present truth" .... Anyway lots of these "displacement" strategies were in place long before LCM's heyday. I mean that whole "The Teacher" thing said it all. You write your question to "The Teacher" and he answers all your questions.....
VPW actively sought to displace the Bible with Way classes, books, and classes. Sure. The Bible was there but how many people had wide margined bibles crammed full of Way notes. You didn't read the bible you read what TWI had told you about the bible first. Hmmm. Its it "thoroughly" or "throughly" ? I wonder...
VPW knew what he was doing from a very early time - from the power struggle that united the West faction under his power. That had nothing to do with "The Word" and everything to do with a massive
ego that grew unchecked.
I think this bears repeating. Excellent post, diazbro!
vee pee may have done some things well, but he was a Dr. Jeckyll / Mr. Hyde personality. He was a charmer when it was convenient for him and I can see why people who had good personal experiences with him are torn - his kids included.
My Daddy is my whole world; my Superman; my Green Lantern ;) and to find out that he may have hurt someone else - especially someone else that I love very much would just tear me up inside. I would also defend my Daddy no matter what - if someone were to attack him because I know the good parts of my Daddy.
That being said - I believe that many of the "good things" that folks experienced in TWI and many of the things folks learned in TWI that were correct didn't come from vee pee - it came from Doop, Heefner, Fugit and the truly "Christian" men who were really serious about God, the Bible and helping people. vee pee used those men and their hearts to build his empire. vee pee used the research papers of others and changed them where it didn't support his evil ways and then took credit for it.
If it weren't for Doop, Heefner, Wise, Frisbee, Fugit and men with genuine ministries, TWI would be nothing and not one person would have a single "victory" story or fond memory because vee pee was a fake, a wolf, a charlatan and never had a pure motive, imo. Just my opinion, ymmv. :)
That being said - I believe that many of the "good things" that folks experienced in TWI and many of the things folks learned in TWI that were correct didn't come from vee pee - it came from Doop, Heefner, Fugit and the truly "Christian" men who were really serious about God, the Bible and helping people. vee pee used those men and their hearts to build his empire. vee pee used the research papers of others and changed them where it didn't support his evil ways and then took credit for it.
If it weren't for Doop, Heefner, Wise, Frisbee, Fugit and men with genuine ministries, TWI would be nothing and not one person would have a single "victory" story or fond memory because vee pee was a fake, a wolf, a charlatan and never had a pure motive, imo. Just my opinion, ymmv. :)[/color]
BRILLIANT Belle!
These guys...the good Christians of twi ...any who were a blessing to people ....were simply the cover that evil hid behind imo....They lent a sense of wholesomeness that wierwille was able to hide his evil practices behind.
They/we were used .... the camoflauge that hid the snare....the scriptures were the bait for the trap.... laid to entrap the unwarey, to place them in bondage.
Proverbs says something about ...in vein is the snare set in sight of the quarry.... Without the cover of Christianity...I seriously doubt wierwille could have perpetrated his crimes.
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ChasUFarley
Well, since said image is gone - and from what I've read, I'm glad I missed it....
I find it interesting that someone who posts about how anti-VPW we all seem to be (many of us, anyhow), seems to hold a man, who:
* misinterpreted the Bible
* plagerized
* seemed to have an anger mangement problem
* chased skirts & cheated on his wife many times
* abused his power
* etc.
* etc.
* etc.
...seems to hold him (VPW) in higher esteem than the many posters here on GSC who knew (knew KNEW) him in PERSON and who give very credible stories about THE MAN that they met. In fact, depending on when the person who started this post was born, it is very likely that VPW had already 'fallen asleep' before said thread starter took his or her first breath.... This leads me to believe that said thread starter really didn't do much homework before starting this thread (i.e. really read old threads, etc., and check the consistancy of many posters stories.)
Personally, I'm glad I never met VPW. I think I would have been disappointed. The times I met LCM were bad enough, and his ministry was supposed to "establish" VPW's ministry. But I am glad I took PFAL - I've always said that - it changed my life for the better - and the ministry I was in didn't put VPW above Jesus Christ, because LCM was already in that positon! But, that's just my experience. I'm sure someone will try to argue with me about it, like said thread starter did on the GSC Radio forum.... but then said thread starter seems to like to jump to conclusions...
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diazbro
This is related to the topic but slightly different. As we know, TWI never really emphasized the cross or the crucifixion choosing rather to discuss the resurrection hence the Dove pin that was so popular. Crosses were verboten and TWI routinely dismissed mainstream denominations for talking up the crucifixion even going so far as to suggest that the devil had somehow made non Way churches blind to the resurrection and what it accomplished. Actually I never though this nor did I see it in practive in any of the churches I attended before or after TWI. Sure. Lots of churches have crosses though they are there to remind the congregants of the price that was paid and as a call to a better standard of living. I never once heard sermons which glorified death or that fixated uniquely on the crucifixion to the exclusion of the resurrection. In TWI I did appreciate the teachings on being new and free in christ and that was cool but little did I realize that many wrong things were accomplished under that concept - that being "free" gave license to do all sorts of things as long as one "could handle it". One of the strangest things I ever heard while in TWI was from a Corps guy who told me something along the lines of the following. (It was in 1976 that I heard this so I can't recall the exact language).
"Do you know that Doctor is so in tap that he can check out scenes that for you and I would result in our being out of fellowship ? He can do that because he has renewed his mind to such a high level that he can resist temptations that would blow the aveage believer's mind. I hope I can be like that one day".
I was floored then and I'm floored now. Little did I know that this kind of thinking was common enough that people starting using it to sleep around and/or do whatever they wanted as long as the "could handle it" and "had their minds renewed". Later from reading Waydale and Greasespot I realized that there were in fact those people who thought so highly of VPW that he was something special and therefore deserving of indulgences for his bad behavior. And some who thought that he was in fact connected to God in a way similar to how some feel about the Pope. Of course in that case The Pope is the counterfeit to VPW's genuine. At times it really does seem to me that some people actually worship VPW and perhaps feel that sticking up for him and trying to get his problems dismissed from consideration will make God look more fondly upon anyone who would defend VPW.
I'm not sure I would post a picture about any of this but I can certainly understand why the idea and resulting action occurred. I've posted that some people feel that VPW is on the right hand of God in place of Jesus Christ. I mean all that talk in TWI of the absent christ suggested that JC was basically in a glass case somewhere with a sign that says "break only when its time for the Return - of course for the benefit of Way believers only". The absent christ thing was a mechanism to get your minds
ready for the "present truth" and the latest homosexual tirades (they were blamed for most everyting were't they ? Craig's
hairloss ? "Homos infiltrated HQ"). Anyway lots of these "displacement" strategies were in place long before LCM's heyday. I mean that whole "The Teacher" thing said it all. You write your question to "The Teacher" and he answers all your questions.
Let "The Teacher" what a particular verse "REALLY" means - which is another way of saying, if you hang with TWI then we can do this for you on a regualr basis - give you the TRUE meaning and how to apply it. VPW actively sought to displace the
Bible with Way classes, books, and classes. Sure. The Bible was there but how many people had wide margined bibles
crammed full of Way notes. You didn't read the bible you read what TWI had told you about the bible first. Hmmm. Its it "thoroughly" or "throughly" ? I wonder. Look. VPW knew what he was doing from a very early time - from the power struggle
that united the West faction under his power. That had nothing to do with "The Word" and everything to do with a massive
ego that grew unchecked.
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socks
Well, if nothing else this seems to have scared CK off - where ya at?
No wingnut, speaking for myself, again, that wasn't the point. Not to worry, If VPW is getting off the hook it won't be for long.
My personal point was that if a person takes a picture of someone, say Daffy Duck, or George Bush, or let's say even me cause God knows I myself suffer deeply everyday in ways that only I know and if everyone else did I'd be given the Mother Teresa pin for good behavior for sure, and put it on the body of Jesus on the cross, it would be weird, to me. I would always respond the same way. That's all.
If the point was to say "Daffy Duck set himself up to replace Jesus Christ", I'd think hmmm. OKay. But the use of Jesus's crucifixion to prove that point, while an important one, would be weird to me. But that's me. I guess I'm a stick-in-the-spud. So be it.
This is America, the good old USA and it's the constitutional right of ever citizen to pi$$ and moan about anything they see fit to, when and where they want to and in whatever way they want to and to the extent that if there's any justice they'll get a government grant to fund it. While I can't honestly use tax dollars to fund my personal peeves, I'm serious, some countries I'd be picking fleas out of my cell mates hair for complaining so much sometimes. I proudly exercise my right to express my inestimable opinion. I'm a good citizen. I highly encourage everyone to do likewise.
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socks
diazbro, I think you've hit on an excellent description of the "absent Christ" doctrine as it's effected so many people. Even using the word "absent" puts that in people's heads. It says "He's not here".
Digging into Way teaching, the "present" Christ was in each one of us, the pneuma hagion, the "Christ in you". The body of Christ, a collective pressence.
That presence would then be lived as each person takes their "place" in the body, as described in Ephesians.
Something very much like this is taught in the church I go to sometimes, but it's different in some key areas. One, that the presence of Christ Himself, in each person's life, is a personal expression of a "living" and "present" Christ. For want of a better word to describe it He has an "identity" that's immediate and knowable. Christ is looked to directly as redeemer, mediator, savior, and head. We ourselves live and function with our own place. There's less of a mystical muddle about who Jesus Christ is when looked at that way I think. While it's difficult to picture exactly who, where and what He is now, it's a part of the Christian life for that to be opened up to each individual through their prayer life, study and guidance within the fellowship of others. It's a task of the spirit to open up God to us and Christ is our shepherd. We need an immediate and personal relationship developing or we lose that pastoring we need from Him.
I think Way teaching led many people to understand the presence of Christ as their own presence....in a sense that "the mind of Christ" is primarily manifested in their own. Christ as a risen, living individual, while "spriit", is subjugated to my own actions and "believing" then. Christ only lives when I let Him live, in other words.
To use terms we're familiar with, that makes sense to the 5 senses man, but it subverts the spriitual man and again, the use of the word absent speaks loudly. Paul taught that while many in his time had known Jesus as a man, they no longer knew Him that way, for obvious reasons. Knowing Him was still possible, but as Paul teaches, different than knowing the guy they had been with "in the flesh".
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markomalley
Linzee,
Sorry, but I'm not terribly concerned with anybody's opinion of me. So if you're disappointed, that's your privilege. Likewise with anybody else who posts here. I started off being intensely disliked by many...I'll leave being intensely disliked by many. That's all part of life.
I suggest you re-examine page one of this thread. The comment made in regards to his children did cause me to severely reduce the contrast on the picture...if you know what it is, you'll still be able to see it; else it won't be apparent. I think you'll be pleased. Keep in mind that the ONLY reason I did this was because of sensitivity for his surviving family members; no other reason would have caused me to do so.
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wingnut
And to think that I had all but forgotten the" so spiritual" crap that flowed so freely from the greatest of VPW worshipers mouths, awwwwwwwww Dr is so spiritual he could mess hisself and not break fellowship! But then they were basically following their Teachers lead, because Dr so lovingly shared that in one of his many masterful classes that he used to teach so he could promote being touched by his masterful hand to all the babes in his kingdom.
Of course it had to be the absent Christ as no one with any brains left would want to admit Jesus knew what was going on in that bus, or what new meanings had been given to ministering. Awwwwww, but the Dr was so spiritual he could have sex with a young follower and not even enjoy it!
Now it comes back VP sharing how we just couldn't shock him, that some of his keeeeddddss would try to go and tattle on each other, but he had that renewed mind! Code for whatever you come up with I am doing worse, so your biting into babe time, move on!
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Eagle
markomalley:
The request to remove the offensive pic of a crucified VPW was not about adulation of VPW but rather just about plain, human decency.
And yes, absolutely, this HURTS the Wierwille family whether one likes them or not. They may have known of his faults but they surely loved him just as much as we loved our parents.
For the love of God, let's not be animals on this site. This goes far beyond personal flaming.
If this is what this thread produces, bloody images of VPW, then perhaps there is a REASON TWI wants to search ex-members coming in to the Sunday Services.
Let's be civil on this thread and this site, or end the thread.
Eagle
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dmiller
Mark --- (for the record) ---
I have NEVER disliked you (intensely, or otherwise).
I've disagreed at times, but that falls into another camp totally.
And if I recollect correct -- this is the first time I have thought a post of yours offensive.
Please --- keep on with the words, and the links you provide.
They suit you, and make your point much more efficaciously. :)
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TheInvisibleDan
You guys are really being way too stuffy in "the sense of humor" department.
Mark, perhaps the misfire with your whacky pic was that you forgot the Lincoln hat,
as well as forgetting to apply a couple of other points significant or peculiar to Way cosmology.
Let's try again...
That really is Abraham Lincoln's hat, from the Smithsonian...
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George Aar
Danny,
Of COURSE! The Lincoln hat!
Why didn't I think of that?
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WhiteDove
Ya think? Maybe we could put a picture of your fathers head up there and see if you still feel the same!
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dmiller
Well -- (just my IMO) --
Mockery ain't cool -- no matter who does it, and to whom.
Selah Vee ---
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allan w.
Yeah, I wondered when the next wise-a*se would show up. You've got good company now Mark, the agnostic and his aar*e-wipe !!
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TheInvisibleDan
Knowing my father, he probably would have laughed too.
Don't you uptight zealots have a demonstration to attend overseas with a few angry Muslims? Don't forget your burkhas...
Danny
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dmiller
:blink:
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TheInvisibleDan
lol!
Danny
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johniam
quote: firmly believe in only telling MY STORY, and nobody elses. VPW and the Mrs. were very kind and gracious to me. And that's the truth. I had experiences with VP that cause me to believe, that he was given a powerful "gift" ie "ministry" or whatever you want to call it. I think that he did hear the voice of God at certain times, and did have a powerful capacity to "minister" to people. But I also think he squandered it, by allowing SIN to permeate his life.
I don't minimize the damage he did to some of my friends. That's the paradox of WHO HE WAS. He could be wonderful, loving, kind, one minute, and mean, arrogant and intolerant the next. Is this any big mystery? Haven't we all had people like that in our lives? People we looked up to, who turned out to be dismally disappointing in ways that we were not aware of, in our naive youth?
I have very mixed feelings about VP and the Way. VP in specific, the Way in general. I had always tried to be honest in telling my story. If Johniam, or anybody else thinks that is disingenuous, then welcome to life.
That's beautiful! Not disingenuous. VP did good AND VP sinned. That's all I've said.
Goey, if you want to "demand" anything from me, get a subpoena. I have no time for your silliness. The only one with blinders on is YOU!
As for Mark's picture, I think he was aiming his message at people like me. So what? He is a proud member of a religion that thinks the crucifiction of Christ is something to be celebrated and partied for; a religion that has been misrepresenting Christ for over 1600 years. I'm not surprised he would post that. He can post all the pictures he wants; I don't care.
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Oakspear
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wingnut
I must have missed the death threats, of course we all know Socks types in code. It's that or someone's judgement is all screwed up and their judgements aren't to be trusted.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
No, you also said that MANY people here have a specific position that-
so far-nobody's come up and claimed as their own.
Goey called you on it, and asked where these "MANY" people are.
With no documentation, the evidence supports the idea that you
just pulled this claim out of your burro.
It's called "supporting your claims so it doesn't look like you made
them up out of whole cloth."
You failed to do it. Goey called you on it.
Your reply-rather than support your claim OR admit you may have
exaggerated a tad-was this post's dandy ad hominem attack.
"F* you!" is NOT a logical defense of one's position.
It DOES, however, suggest there IS no logical defense for it.
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Zixar
75% of this thread is just arguing over a picture?
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Belle
diazbro said:
I think this bears repeating. Excellent post, diazbro!
vee pee may have done some things well, but he was a Dr. Jeckyll / Mr. Hyde personality. He was a charmer when it was convenient for him and I can see why people who had good personal experiences with him are torn - his kids included.
My Daddy is my whole world; my Superman; my Green Lantern ;) and to find out that he may have hurt someone else - especially someone else that I love very much would just tear me up inside. I would also defend my Daddy no matter what - if someone were to attack him because I know the good parts of my Daddy.
That being said - I believe that many of the "good things" that folks experienced in TWI and many of the things folks learned in TWI that were correct didn't come from vee pee - it came from Doop, Heefner, Fugit and the truly "Christian" men who were really serious about God, the Bible and helping people. vee pee used those men and their hearts to build his empire. vee pee used the research papers of others and changed them where it didn't support his evil ways and then took credit for it.
If it weren't for Doop, Heefner, Wise, Frisbee, Fugit and men with genuine ministries, TWI would be nothing and not one person would have a single "victory" story or fond memory because vee pee was a fake, a wolf, a charlatan and never had a pure motive, imo. Just my opinion, ymmv. :)
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rascal
BRILLIANT Belle!
These guys...the good Christians of twi ...any who were a blessing to people ....were simply the cover that evil hid behind imo....They lent a sense of wholesomeness that wierwille was able to hide his evil practices behind.
They/we were used .... the camoflauge that hid the snare....the scriptures were the bait for the trap.... laid to entrap the unwarey, to place them in bondage.
Proverbs says something about ...in vein is the snare set in sight of the quarry.... Without the cover of Christianity...I seriously doubt wierwille could have perpetrated his crimes.
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