The Persecution of VPW

[markomalley]

Eagle/Ex10/Linzee/David/Socks/et al:

Well, I tell you what:

1) I won't remove the image

2) I can't change the post

HOWEVER, I am amicable at substituting the image.

So, the way I see it, there are two choices:

1) appeal to the mods to remove it (and discipline me appropriately)

2) try to help me with some ideas to graphically and powerfully visually depict the comment that there are many who place VP above Christ (i.e., idolatry)

If you can suggest something that I can depict visually that would a) be less offensive to you and b) hit the targeted parties across the face with a 2X4, I'll see if I can photoshop something together and replace it in my online storage so that you won't have to see it anymore.

But I've used the words before time and time again.

[GarthP2000]

Maybe Mark could have put/illustrated his point better (a point which I clearly understand, despite his less-than-veteran usage of Photoshop, by the way ), ... but then again, when you have folks like Smikeol, CK and Co. touting VeePee as tho' he has "bled out his heart of the Word to us, peee-puhl!!" and "how dare you persecute such a Man of God?!" and the like guilt-trips, ..... regardless of how many people were seriously abused by him, and the defender's callous dismissal of same ........ well you know, I can understand Mark's frustration to a sizeable degree. I mean, the VeePee defenders are all but saying that VeePee "died for our sins". They just haven't put it in so many words.

So, who's really being disrespectful here, hmmmm? :unsure:

I'm with Mark here. Don't take the post down!

P.S., and to those who are complaining about their 'moral sensitivities' being offended? ... How many of you have watched (and laughed at) South Park? You *know* how direct they are when it comes to cutting across religious sensitivities.

Just something to think about.

Edited April 11, 2006 by GarthP2000

[ex10]

What's "South Park?"

[socks]

That dog don't bark, that pony can't dance.

So, who's really being disrespectful here, hmmmm?

What's that mean, Garth? " Touche' " ? I stand by my post, no deletion or alterations necessary ( )

If you're trying to say I have no right to say what I said, I say...you're wrong.

It's not shocking, it's insulting. To me. It's not "some", it's me. I speak for me. Moi. Le Soques. I registered my complaint, that's that.

What else you got?

I have over a 1,000 hours easily on Photoshop since the turn of the millenium, and a number of other digitally enhanced enhancers. I've got 5 minutes. Who's head goes where?

Edited April 11, 2006 by socks

[Tom Strange]

Maybe Mark could have put/illustrated his point better (a point which I clearly understand, despite his less-than-veteran usage of Photoshop, by the way ), ... but then again, when you have folks like Smikeol, CK and Co. touting VeePee as tho' he has "bled out his heart of the Word to us, peee-puhl!!" and "how dare you persecute such a Man of God?!" and the like guilt-trips, ..... regardless of how many people were seriously abused by him, and the defender's callous dismissal of same ........ well you know, I can understand Mark's frustration to a sizeable degree. I mean, the VeePee defenders are all but saying that VeePee "died for our sins". They just haven't put it in so many words.

So, who's really being disrespectful here, hmmmm? :unsure:

I'm with Mark here. Don't take the post down!

P.S., and to those who are complaining about their 'moral sensitivities' being offended? ... How many of you have watched (and laughed at) South Park? You *know* how direct they are when it comes to cutting across religious sensitivities.

Just something to think about.

Well... I don't know how to use photoshop but I hear it's an easy program to learn.

And while I understand what you've said in your first paragraph here Garth, I think it's important to note that while Mark may feel the frustration you describe... none of those people are the ones voicing their distaste/objection.

Mark,

I wasn't offended but that's just me. But FWIW I'd say take it down because it is offensive to some and I don't think the folks who have voiced their objections are the targeted parties you may have intended to hit with a 2x4 across the face. JMO

Edited April 11, 2006 by Tom Strange

[Patriot]

I'm getting a kick out of CK.

She's probably not even 19, and is just getting her kicks out of saying something that will get everyone's dander up . It makes her feel important that a silly little line she says, especially if it is something she really doesn't believe, gets sooo many people talking, giving her consideration and parently advise, and upsetting others.

Imagine if twi had a site that only extolled the virtues of VPW, LCM and the current salvation to the world that twi was bringing. Think about it.....wouldn't it be fun to infiltrate the conversations, yet still acting as if you were still an "innie" yet always questioned the teachings, leadership's rules, etc? Say something like "Yeah, I know about the snow on the holy gas pumps, but I dunno.....maybe Dr. Wierwille made that incident up?" Of course you would be lovingly chastised by the rest. So, keep doing it over and over. Frustrate their counsel, annoy them.....until you finally get another to say "well, maybe he has a point." How important would you feel? You wouldn't be able to contain yourself, and couldn't wait to tell your "outie" friends on GSC what happened. I think that is what CK is doing. So, I won't give her that satisfaction. Let her amuse herself. She isn't here for discourse, or for help. She is just trying to frustrate and annoy

Self indulgence.....not very patriotic!

[WordWolf]

2) try to help me with some ideas to graphically and powerfully visually depict the comment that there are many who place VP above Christ (i.e., idolatry)

If you can suggest something that I can depict visually that would a) be less offensive to you and b) hit the targeted parties across the face with a 2X4, I'll see if I can photoshop something together and replace it in my online storage so that you won't have to see it anymore.

But I've used the words before time and time again.

Personally,

I found that the image was less offensive than the

concepts it lampooned. It was harsh, but made its point.

Do I think that it would have been made without the image?

Well,

we've been discussing it for years, and some people still

find it too subtle for them, so a clue by four might be

warranted, IMHO.

I agree with Mark that-if there's a different, equally effective

image, we can use that. However, I don't have one.

Those of you who are offended, PLEASE brainstorm up one.

I'd be glad to help find images to match the concept,

if you've got a coherent concept to use.

[socks]

At the expense of sounding petty and shallow I'll leave it to the orginator of the idea, Mark, to do whatever he wants to do.

I'll say it again, fI don't care what point you want to make about VPW. I think there's limits to what means justify the end. If it's that important to you to demonstrate your convicton that "some" people place VPW above Christ, fine. Go for it. But to use the image of Christ on the cross to do it is off limits - for me. Frankly it's not my mission in life to hit people over the head - for their own good of course - to see things my way. And it's definitely not to figure out some more suitable icon to do that so we can all be in agreement on the politcally correct and acceptable imagery. You know how I feel. We disagreed. What's even weirder to me though is all this tough-talk about 2X4 methods. Is that what you really want to do?

[dmiller]

Well -- In Mark's defense -- it is too late to take down (delete) the post. Usta could do that on the old board -- but not here. I think it is in the hands of the Mods, now. :)

[markomalley]

At the expense of sounding petty and shallow I'll leave it to the orginator of the idea, Mark, to do whatever he wants to do.

I'll say it again, fI don't care what point you want to make about VPW. I think there's limits to what means justify the end. If it's that important to you to demonstrate your convicton that "some" people place VPW above Christ, fine. Go for it. But to use the image of Christ on the cross to do it is off limits - for me. Frankly it's not my mission in life to hit people over the head - for their own good of course - to see things my way. And it's definitely not to figure out some more suitable icon to do that so we can all be in agreement on the politcally correct and acceptable imagery. You know how I feel. We disagreed. What's even weirder to me though is all this tough-talk about 2X4 methods. Is that what you really want to do?

There is a saying that "sometimes to get somebody's attention, you've got to hit them across the head with a 2X4"

As to the rest of it, this is a discussion forum.

[justloafing]

My only problem with the pic is the Wierwille family having to see it. I think it drives a good point across. How many times in twig were the mugs of the trustees front and center. Even though they said they were not to be worshiped, why were their pics always so prominent?

Remember the prayer list twi handed out? I wish I could find mine. When vp was alive was his name first on that list to be prayed for?

Edited April 11, 2006 by justloafing

[markomalley]

My only problem with the pic is the Wierwille family having to see it.

You don't think the Wierwille family already knows how much adulation was given to VP?

You don't think the Wierwille family already knows how much VP abused that adulation?

[justloafing]

Nahhh Mark that was not my point. vp was not my father in flesh and blood. If that was my fathers face it would disturb me.

[GarthP2000]

Socks,

If you're trying to say I have no right to say what I said, I say...you're wrong.

And I said that to you, ........ how? Where? Please, leave out the straw man argument, ok?

I registered my complaint, that's that.

And I registered my POV, that's that.

GarthP2000 sez in an earlier post,

So, who's really being disrespectful here, hmmmm?

You know what I meant by that? Perhaps I should have been more clear. I was showing a comparison between the (supposed) disrespect by Mark's illustration, and the disrespect shown by the VeePee defenders who treat VeePee at a level where they almost consider him their Savior. You know, the one who died for their sins? ... Sure, they don't come right out and say it, and maybe they don't actually go that far, but for all appearances, its almost like that's how they view the man. If anything, Smikeol provides a classic textbook example.

And that's the point that I think Mark was addressing. And frankly, I think that he has a point.

I stand by my post, no deletion or alterations necessary

As I'm gonna stand by mine. ... Still offended? Go watch some South Park.

[GarthP2000]

Looking back over my last post, I wish to take back and apologize to Socks for this part of the post:

Still offended? Go watch some South Park.

That was a bit over the top, so I withdraw that part.

[doojable]

Eagle/Ex10/Linzee/David/Socks/et al:

Well, I tell you what:

1) I won't remove the image

2) I can't change the post

HOWEVER, I am amicable at substituting the image.

So, the way I see it, there are two choices:

1) appeal to the mods to remove it (and discipline me appropriately)

2) try to help me with some ideas to graphically and powerfully visually depict the comment that there are many who place VP above Christ (i.e., idolatry)

If you can suggest something that I can depict visually that would a) be less offensive to you and b) hit the targeted parties across the face with a 2X4, I'll see if I can photoshop something together and replace it in my online storage so that you won't have to see it anymore.

But I've used the words before time and time again.

Mark - Just a suggestion - but why not have a pic of VPW pushing Jesus Christ off his throne?

[T-Bone]

I better put my 2 cents in here - so I can get on somebody's mark and avoid list - I think Mark hit the nail on the cross with his picture! For me personally - in my TWI days, VPW took the place of the absent Christ.

[socks]

No straw in these ears Garth, but the South Park thing is escaping me, sorry.

I really don't see the validity of that statement, and there's no need to apologize for it, because I don't "get it".

If you mean - think this is bad? Go watch some South Park - it's really bad too!

Then I would respond - why would I want to watch something - else - that's really bad in YOUR opinion of comparison and indeed - why does the fact that (you say) South Park's existence somehow validates - doing more of the same kind of thing here? See, I just don't get it. I do watch South Park and when they do some of the stuff they do, I switch channels. What's the big deal with South Park, for Chri....oh, wait a minute, uh, well, you know what I mean.

By the by - this may baffle anyone who can't read english, but myself - I never asked for the image to be taken off the site. Not sure who started that, but it wasn't me.

I disliked it, voiced my opinion and stated why. Whoo hoo, right? I didn't ask for it to be taken down. I say leave it up - Mark stood by his post, there's no winner or loser here (other than I now know the limits of bad taste Mark is capable of...IMO) it's just a discussion board as Mark said. A good place to read and learn and share. I did a bunch of each on this thread.

All this get tuff with a 2 x 4 stuff is weak, to my mind. Get heavy, pushy, shocking, put some strong in your wong. Come on. Again, I don't care what point you make or don't about VPW, but if you're going to get heavy about it, continue to use your intelligence, wit and heart Mark. You're a smart guy. Why bend over to show you can?

[dmiller]

Hit em with one of these 2X4's. ;)

(Maybe something will *resonate*, as a result!)

Edited April 11, 2006 by dmiller

[allan w.]

I think the comment of people putting VP above Christ is another extreeeeeeeeeeeeemly exaggerated argument. Some very likely did, but why 'tar' adherants of (majority) of pfal with the same brush ??

In my opinion a more accurate picture would have been to have put the popes head there.

Can you do that one Mark, then we can have a 'balanced' view.

[GarthP2000]

Can you do that one Mark, then we can have a 'balanced' view.

Why don't you do it? Get your own copy of Photoshop and go to town.

[markomalley]

Why don't you do it? Get your own copy of Photoshop and go to town.

The problem is that Allan would think I was being serious, rather than using a (unbalanced and extreme) form of Satire.

[dmiller]

Aw shucks Allan -- how come docvic was the main *subject* on the cover of the way rag??

That was a physical manifestation, of the inward reality of twi thought.

(In print --- and 4-color no less!)

[excathedra]

dead or alive and forgiveness ? just wondering

makes absolutely no difference to me

i feel the same way about those who have injured me deeply whether they are alive or dead

and remember i didn't say whether i forgive or not

is it any of your business ?

can i talk about what happened to me in my life ? can i have feelings emotions about these things ?

[Linda Z]

I thought of something else today about the picture Mark posted: If I were an innie coming here because I was thinking about maybe departing from the prevailing promised place, one look at that image would send me in the other direction. Sometimes less is more.

You want us to suggest a replacement, Mark? Sorry. Not my job. I think the best form of censorship is self-censorship, preferably of the variety that occurs before the bell's already been rung. It's too late for that, isn't it?

Mark, you're free to post anything you care to, if it's okay with Paw and his moderators. And I'm free to not like it and to change my opinion of you (hint: it used to be better) as a result.

Regarding VPW's children: They probably know more than anyone how people fawned over their father. That doesn't mean the image of their father's head stuck on the crucified Christ wouldn't be distasteful or even painful for them to see.

Socks, and ex10, you've written many wise words in this thread. Thank you both. (I'm sure others have, too, but those are the ones that I remember without going back through the whole thread.)

Edited April 11, 2006 by Linda Z