From what i know about the worship manifistations, is that they are not direct revelation. Its more like you are inspired. so indeed, they are not God moving your lips, your throat, your tounge, like you are a robot...but you are INSPIRED by that holy spirit bubbling up in your soul!! You are doing it on your own, as the spirit gives you the utterance...
"My little children, hearken unto me. I have given you my Word, so that you may have a life that is more than abundant!! I have cast your sins as far as the East is from the West. I have given you my Son, so that you may know me. I have engraven your name upon the palms of my hands. Therefore my little children, have no fear, for I the Lord Almighty am with you. I have called you to be my very own. Hearken unto me and my Word, and you will be more than conquerors in every situation."
So, its quite simple. I think the more a person worked the Word, and knew the Scripture on their own, the more dynamic the manifistation. They had more to work with, as oppossed to the person who never read the Bible, or made it their own. Some people had a real talent for this. One example would be at an ordination, when someone was fired up and they would prophecy like no tomarrow. The person who makes up in the car and the person who goes to the meeting blind, and busts it out on the spot...not really a difference in whether they "made it up". They are still using the Scripture they know, but the one who busts it out on the spot might be more genuine for the meeting and the need there.
just my two cents...(sarcasm anyone?)
p.s. it might say newbie, but i change profiles alot...been around since Waydale. WayGB always on the hunt... <_<
Yo, Chief! Just wanted to say hi, or "how", to a fellow native-American avatar.
Chas, I like your formula, but I'd like to suggest a "kick-bu+t" series...some special messages for the present-truth leadership...some hell-fire and brimstone-smite-the-wicked-wrath-o' God type stuff.
"Excellor sessions this morning will center on Word of Wisdom - we will all take turns operating this manifestation.
After Lunch Excellor Sessions will be devoted to Healing - please remember to bring your assigned lame person to the session so that you can heal them during the session.
After which we will check to make sure everyone has their snacks that they prepared all year to bring to the class."
This is an interesting topic for me. Since I have wondered alot about what the "truth" is concerning such things.
I am way more comfortable discussing this subject in "Doctrinal" but whatever. I can walk the edge sometimes! ;)
I think you make a fabulous point, Evan, by the way.
Honestly, I don't know if I ever "faked" it. What I do know, is that I was on "automatic pilot" much of my time in Way World. When called upon to "manifest" I usually didn't get too excited about it, as I did it all the time. Seeing as how most of my life was spent in meetings. HA!
I know now, I hardly ever sit, interpret, prophesy, in front of a group. But when I do, I am usually in the company of the uninitiated (meaning my church friends) so I take it very seriously, and only do so when "inspired."
I am "agnostic" concerning the manefestations as taught in TWI. My suspicion is that this is not the real deal.
Especially concerning the "worship manifestations" of interpretation of tongues and prophecy.
I remember a WOW that would say the same the same tongue schpeel each time. But the interpretation would change each time. Didnt seem right.
Interpretation and prophecy seemed more like a mockery or parroting of what we had been hearing already in others interpretations and prophecy. "My Little Children. This is GAWD talking to ya .. yada yada yada."
My best guess is that interpretation and prophecy was just learned behavior. Folks learned some scripture, some PFAL, and learned from hearing others "prophecy" in meetings and fellowships. Then after an appropriate indoctrination time we were allow to do it in meetings. We simply mentally recalled what we had learned and and said it out loud. It many times amounted to a "my little children" maybe followed by some paraphrased scripture or TWI principle, mixed along with some Wayisms. After about a year or so, I saw nothing really special about it - nothing that I couldn't get from reading my Bible, especially since sometimes folks were getting corrected by leaders for the content being wrong.ie "Gawd would never say that" ( as if they would know). So, it was only "real" prophecy if it lined up with TWI's doctrines and teachings.
I think Way teaching missed the critical connection of "manifestations"/ "gifts" to "angels", which connection appears quite consistent throughout the Pauline/Qumran/Pseudepigrapha/Apocryphal material.
E. Earle Ellis (as well as Otto Everling before him) did studies exploring the relationship between the charismatic "gifts" and the "servant" angelic-beings thought to be provided as the sources behind these various powers. In other words (perhaps at the risk of oversimplification), each Christian had nine angels/spirits appointed to him/her as their "servants", or "ministering angels".
I've often wondered if these "angels" (or this particular "class") comprised the "spoil" or "booty" of those conquered through Christ's accomplishments on the cross. Were these angels previously hostile to mankind, now "captives" subjected to the service of mankind? There are other possibilites of course. It is interesting to explore what role angels played having to do with the charismatic gifts (how this was precisely understood back then is open to question).
Out of all the 20th century charismatic preachers I've read about, William Branham stands out in particular, for his emphasis on the relationship of angels to "gifts". His mindset there appears eerily close to the expressions observed in the ancient literature mentioned above, material which I doubt he had exposure.
Wow. This thread has just completely floored me. At my first PFAL class, when everyone else stood up to SIT for the first time, I was frozen. I believed that my inability to manifest meant that I wasn't good enough, that God didn't love me. I eventually managed to convince myself that I could SIT in my head, but was too afraid to try it out loud. The one time I was called on to manifest in twig, I simply stayed silent until someone else was called on.
That most of you here in this thread freely admit to faking it is like a huge weight lifted off me. I never stopped believing that I wasn't good enough. And it was mostly my inability to manifest that made me leave the way.
I've been registered here at Greasespot for at least a year or so and I believe I've only made one post. But I couldn't not respond to this one. Thanks for this.
Welcome Sabine!!! And what a great first post it is!!!
I think what you described about feeling how it was our fault for not preforming up to twi standards....has afflicted us all in one way or another while we were in twi...I think you just summerized twi involvement in a nut shell!
If our prayer was unanswered....
If our health was poor...
If we lacked material abundance...
If we didn`t have tuition together in time for corpes....
Every shortcoming was always viewed to be our fault.....it certainly couldn`t have been that the doctrine was faulty or the expectations rediculously impossible
I am sure sorry that you were made to feel bad for so long.....
I believed that my inability to manifest meant that I wasn't good enough, that God didn't love me
Thus is TWI exposed.
Using one of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost to make one of God's precious children feel that HE didn't love them. Simply because they didn't receive that gift.
And we fell for it, hook line and sinker, what should have been a Joyful, spiritually enriching experience if it happened, became a thing of drudgery and fear
Since you mention fruit, guessalot, haw 'bout this: (There is such a thing as stretching an analogy beyond its intended meaning, but I think this works)
Fruit, though representing desirable qualities for the individual, has two primay functions outside of being 'nice' for the person living with them. Fruit doesn't normally decorate the tree...flowers do that.
1. It contains seed for growing more of the same...it has life.
2. It provides needed nourishment for others.
I'll contend that Der Veg was notably weak in this area, weaker than your average church on the corner.
i spoke clear and loud at the end of session 12 and i can assure you i was a phoney so maybe you did the right thing {i think you did} you just weren't a phoney!!! good for you
I am quite convinced I spoke 'genuinely' in tongues at the end of session 12 ! Does that mean I'm not a phoney ?
I still believe every born again Christian has the ability, the problem is some give up, some don't understand it, others are just taught wrong by their denominations.
O.k. heres how I manifested.
At the end of session 12 when I stood up to speak in tongues, I thought one spoke in English and others heard it in 'tongues'. I think I had slept through half the sessions !!
Anyway, Selina who had 'manifested' by session 8 went around telling everyone " Allan didn't speak in tongues, Allan didn't speak in tongues "
Needless to say I was pretty bummed out. Anyways..the class had a bbq at the end, I had a beer (yeah it was pretty cool at that time ). Half an hour later I was standing at the 'throne' having a 'piddle' and I just opened my mouth and spoke a couple of words and....oh, so that's how it works..!!
See, I don't believe ANYBODY gets 'missed'.
" Thus is twi exposed" would have to be one of the 'lamest' comments that has been posted on this thread so far.
a Joyful, spiritually enriching experience if it happened, became a thing of drudgery and fear
Some people in TWi recieved this gift and some didn't, simple as that.
The problem is when people run around flaunting the fact that they received a present and others didn't and then claim fact they did receive a present makes them somehow better than others.
That is called 1) bad manners and 2) untrue
Even if I, for purposes of this discussion only, acede to the idea that we were all suppposed to recieve this gift, it is still 1) bad manners and 2) untrue
to flaunt the gift and claim others aren't loved who didn't receive, or can 't manifest or whatever.
If you use the Word to hurt the spirit of your brothers and sisters then you are corrupting the Word
i usually save this sort of thing for the doctrinal dungeon
but it seems to fit here as well
i want to offer a quick sample of an idea of how the manifestations might actually make more sense:
1) if left in the order Paul wrote them
2) if looked at in terms of always already present nature of reality (all of which is already always spiritual), and not some exclusive gift given to an exclusive group...but the everpresent truth of God (that man simply falls asleep to when we enter any sort of monochromatic worldview/Godview.)
3) if looked at in terms of sequential unfolding...how each manifestation comes through the previous manifestations, and builds upon the quality and nature of the previous manifestations, and so the quality of the resultant stack of manifestations can be traced back through them all...maybe think "conveyor belt" or "spiritual continuum"
ok...
1) word of wisdom = asking a question. the foundations of our spiritual self always starts with a simple question. A crying newborn is the earliest example i can think of. The art of asking a newer and better question on the spot.
2) word of knowledge = finding an answer...which naturally comes through word of wisdom, and hopefully produces more and better "words of wisdom."
3) faith = the results of all our questions and answers...which is something we can rely on, and have confidence in. Faith is never perfect, and always has an element of gambling. In this sense....science IS what is meant by faith, especially when our private questions and answers are compared. Faith is that which has been proven.
4) gifts of healing...the results of better questions, answers, and faith (science) naturally leads to better ways of being born, living, diet, wellness, wholeness, healing and dying. Better medicine. Which says a lot for the importance of quality in the previous 3 manifestations. We may not even always know why healing and wholeness comes...and who cares...its a gift, regardless.
5) miracles...the results of all the previous 4...great advancements and wonders in healing, science, answers...even amazing new questions we may have never thought to ask come like miracles. When we apply all the previous together...things tend to break loose. And who cares why...if it works, it works . if it doesnt, it doesnt.
6) prophecy, forecasting, predictions...with the increase in quality of the all the previous 5, greater patterns and trends emerge. This is where we sense how every thing moves in waves, tides, and seasons.
7) discerning of spirits...the art of science of studying the super patterns and super trends in terms of spectrums of reality, and of whole truths with many parts.
8) speaking in tongues...the art and science of speaking of the spectrum of reality. In this sense, each level of the spectrum is a "tongue," or voice, or tone of an "angel."
9) interpretation of tongues...the art and science of explaining the overall spectrum, which is to explain Christ as the inward man, and its relationship to the outer world. To speak of the Christ, is to speak of all "angels" at once, as a whole, and how they work in harmony.
again, it seems as if each manifestations comes through each other in an unfolding manner
but also...tend to support each other in the reverse order as they unfold
That is why I still believe that every b/a Christian has the ability to manifest. Yes , some are better at some manif/ gifts than others, yet all have the ability.
If I am in a precarious situation, do I need to wait for someone with 'word of knowledge' ability to turn up ??
The rain falls on the just and the unjust, how much more the gifts of God.
The rain falls on the just and the unjust, how much more the gifts of God.
Because not all gifts are appropriate for all people
I wouldn't give a lawn tractor to someone who lives in an apartment
Likewise God will give the gifts that are of the most benefit to the individual to that individual
TO say that all need the same gift or gifts is denying our individuality, but then, that is precisely what TWI tried to do, stamp us out with one cookie cutter like we were play-doh
Well, as (I think it was Ex-10) said in an earlier post, the things are there to prove to ourselves.
lds want to go around trying to prove that a spirit being, a 'resurrected moroni' swooned around with gold plates, great. I'd rather spend my time proving to myself that all nine manifestations are real and can often be seen, heard, felt, on a (sometimes daily) basis.
I often meet many people who do not experience the 'manifestations' saying, "what a bunch of boloney", but there aren't many who GENUINELY manifest that say the same thing....I wonder why that is ?!
p.s. I wasn't talking about lawn tractors Mo. Things of the spirit as opposed to gifts in the 5 senses realm.
8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
VPW taught that
"severally as he will" modified "every man" which meant that man decided what gifts he would receive ergo "all nine all the time"
He treated
,"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.", as a sentence
But it's not a sentence, it is the end of the sentence that starts in Verse 8. Throughout that sentence the personage doing the action is The Spirit therefore the modifier "as he will" applies to the one doing the acting namely The Spirit.
New International Version
8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
New American Standard Version
8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Amplified Version
8To one is given in and through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] a message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] a word of knowledge and understanding according to the same [Holy] Spirit;
9To another [wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues. 11All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses.
New Living Version
8To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another he gives the gift of special knowledge. 9The Spirit gives special faith to another, and to someone else he gives the power to heal the sick. 10He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and to another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, and another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
Contemporary English Version
8Some of us can speak with wisdom, while others can speak with knowledge, but these gifts come from the same Spirit. 9To others the Spirit has given great faith or the power to heal the sick 10or the power to work mighty miracles. Some of us are prophets, and some of us recognize when God's Spirit is present. Others can speak different kinds of languages, and still others can tell what these languages mean. 11But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us
Young's Literal Translation
8for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
9and to another faith in the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healings in the same Spirit;
10and to another in-workings of mighty deeds; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; and to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues: 11and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth
Wycliffe New Testement
And the word of wisdom is given to one by Spirit [To another forsooth by Spirit the word of wisdom is given]; to another the word of knowing, by the same Spirit;
9 faith to another, in the same Spirit; to another, grace of healings [a], in one Spirit;
10 to another, the working of works of power; to another, prophecy; to another, very knowing of spirits; to another, kinds of languages; to another, expounding of words. [to another, the working of virtues; to another, prophecy; to another, discretion, or very knowing, of spirits; to another, kinds of tongues, or languages; to another, interpreting, or expounding, of words.] 11 And one and the same Spirit worketh all these things [Forsooth all these things one and the same Spirit worketh], parting to each by themselves as he will
Clearly VPW based the entire "all nine all the time" theory on his faulty understanding of sentence structure
Not one other scholar agrees with his PI of verse 11
Faulty understand=Faulty Doctrine
I'd rather spend my time proving to myself that all nine manifestations are real
there you go with the apples and oranges again
The fact that all nine manifestations are real has never been the issue, the fact that all of us have all of them is
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OnionEater
In the english language a double negative is a positive. So if I faked SIT does it make it real???
Never believed in it and never will.
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Chief Cornerstone
From what i know about the worship manifistations, is that they are not direct revelation. Its more like you are inspired. so indeed, they are not God moving your lips, your throat, your tounge, like you are a robot...but you are INSPIRED by that holy spirit bubbling up in your soul!! You are doing it on your own, as the spirit gives you the utterance...
"My little children, hearken unto me. I have given you my Word, so that you may have a life that is more than abundant!! I have cast your sins as far as the East is from the West. I have given you my Son, so that you may know me. I have engraven your name upon the palms of my hands. Therefore my little children, have no fear, for I the Lord Almighty am with you. I have called you to be my very own. Hearken unto me and my Word, and you will be more than conquerors in every situation."
So, its quite simple. I think the more a person worked the Word, and knew the Scripture on their own, the more dynamic the manifistation. They had more to work with, as oppossed to the person who never read the Bible, or made it their own. Some people had a real talent for this. One example would be at an ordination, when someone was fired up and they would prophecy like no tomarrow. The person who makes up in the car and the person who goes to the meeting blind, and busts it out on the spot...not really a difference in whether they "made it up". They are still using the Scripture they know, but the one who busts it out on the spot might be more genuine for the meeting and the need there.
just my two cents...(sarcasm anyone?)
p.s. it might say newbie, but i change profiles alot...been around since Waydale. WayGB always on the hunt... <_<
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ChasUFarley
You could almost create (gasp! can you say "create" here?) a formula on how to do manifestations....
Pick a line from each stanza, and see how they read together.....
INTRO:
For I, the Lord Thy God
My dear, righteous children
Beloved, harken unto me
MIDDLE:
I called you out of utter darkness into the light of my Word that you may walk in the light...
fear not, for I do strengthen you, and I do protect you. Yea, I make you strong...
I loved you before the foundation of the world and know every hair on your head...
WRAPPING IT UP:
So, walk forth in the light of my Word, and stagger not to the left or to the right...
Know that I make you strong, and that I set your feet firm on a foundation...
I sustain thee and comfort me. Stand on my Word and bask in my love for you...
ENDING:
but stay on the straight path knowing that I will reward thy stand upon my Word.
Remember that I have firmly set your feet on the rock of my Word.
and never fear, for I, your Heavenly Father, am with you with every step and every breathe.
Yeah... sometimes I faked it....
But I never fake ANYTHING anymore....
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Chief Cornerstone
LOL!! now innies can come to Greasespot when they are in a bind for that excellors session!! LOL!!
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tonto
Yo, Chief! Just wanted to say hi, or "how", to a fellow native-American avatar.
Chas, I like your formula, but I'd like to suggest a "kick-bu+t" series...some special messages for the present-truth leadership...some hell-fire and brimstone-smite-the-wicked-wrath-o' God type stuff.
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topoftheworld
"Excellor sessions this morning will center on Word of Wisdom - we will all take turns operating this manifestation.
After Lunch Excellor Sessions will be devoted to Healing - please remember to bring your assigned lame person to the session so that you can heal them during the session.
After which we will check to make sure everyone has their snacks that they prepared all year to bring to the class."
ROFLMAO!!
Good one, Belle!
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Suda
Never faked - always was and is inspired utterance. And I hear lots of differences in languages and messages. They are a blessing to me.
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ex10
This is an interesting topic for me. Since I have wondered alot about what the "truth" is concerning such things.
I am way more comfortable discussing this subject in "Doctrinal" but whatever. I can walk the edge sometimes! ;)
I think you make a fabulous point, Evan, by the way.
Honestly, I don't know if I ever "faked" it. What I do know, is that I was on "automatic pilot" much of my time in Way World. When called upon to "manifest" I usually didn't get too excited about it, as I did it all the time. Seeing as how most of my life was spent in meetings. HA!
I know now, I hardly ever sit, interpret, prophesy, in front of a group. But when I do, I am usually in the company of the uninitiated (meaning my church friends) so I take it very seriously, and only do so when "inspired."
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sirguessalot
seems to me like the nature of manifestations and fruit got completely switched around in twi doctrine
cuz fruit is not mere evidence
we "operate" fruit
we cultivate fruit
we eat fruit
but the spirit is already always manifest in every thing...including the fruit
me too, ssuda
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TheInvisibleDan
I think Way teaching missed the critical connection of "manifestations"/ "gifts" to "angels", which connection appears quite consistent throughout the Pauline/Qumran/Pseudepigrapha/Apocryphal material.
E. Earle Ellis (as well as Otto Everling before him) did studies exploring the relationship between the charismatic "gifts" and the "servant" angelic-beings thought to be provided as the sources behind these various powers. In other words (perhaps at the risk of oversimplification), each Christian had nine angels/spirits appointed to him/her as their "servants", or "ministering angels".
I've often wondered if these "angels" (or this particular "class") comprised the "spoil" or "booty" of those conquered through Christ's accomplishments on the cross. Were these angels previously hostile to mankind, now "captives" subjected to the service of mankind? There are other possibilites of course. It is interesting to explore what role angels played having to do with the charismatic gifts (how this was precisely understood back then is open to question).
Out of all the 20th century charismatic preachers I've read about, William Branham stands out in particular, for his emphasis on the relationship of angels to "gifts". His mindset there appears eerily close to the expressions observed in the ancient literature mentioned above, material which I doubt he had exposure.
Danny
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Sabine
Wow. This thread has just completely floored me. At my first PFAL class, when everyone else stood up to SIT for the first time, I was frozen. I believed that my inability to manifest meant that I wasn't good enough, that God didn't love me. I eventually managed to convince myself that I could SIT in my head, but was too afraid to try it out loud. The one time I was called on to manifest in twig, I simply stayed silent until someone else was called on.
That most of you here in this thread freely admit to faking it is like a huge weight lifted off me. I never stopped believing that I wasn't good enough. And it was mostly my inability to manifest that made me leave the way.
I've been registered here at Greasespot for at least a year or so and I believe I've only made one post. But I couldn't not respond to this one. Thanks for this.
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rascal
Welcome Sabine!!! And what a great first post it is!!!
I think what you described about feeling how it was our fault for not preforming up to twi standards....has afflicted us all in one way or another while we were in twi...I think you just summerized twi involvement in a nut shell!
If our prayer was unanswered....
If our health was poor...
If we lacked material abundance...
If we didn`t have tuition together in time for corpes....
Every shortcoming was always viewed to be our fault.....it certainly couldn`t have been that the doctrine was faulty or the expectations rediculously impossible
I am sure sorry that you were made to feel bad for so long.....
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SafariVista
(((((((((Sabine)))))))))
How terrible that you had to go through that...
Thanks for sharing your experience. Maybe those with similar frustrations will be reassured ~
TWI has too many quick answers, which contradict the heart of unadulterated love~
Hope to see you again soon
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WordWolf
That's how I called it.
That's why the other 6 had a cold, clinical, technical coverage in the Advanced class.
You can discuss fiction in that fashion, or things you don't really understand.
(I've been in discussions like that of the Harry Potter series,
and the Wheel of Time series.)
The actual, PRACTICAL coverage of such stuff was NOT covered,
and this indicates a lack of familiarity with the PRACTICE of stuff.
By contrast,
I ran thru "discerning of spirits" with another Christian once.
I didn't name it, but my instructions took 1-2 minutes, TOPS.
At the end, they were able to use it correctly,
the first time.
vpw did not have a lot of printed material on the practical aspects
to rip off of, so he was forced to choose between no answer
and making it up. That's how we ended up with the "definition"
of "phenomenon", which amounted to "whatever isn't accounted for
in our definitions." Heck, I had a better working definition for that
thing while IN the Advanced class, and the knee-jerk reaction
one person had for it was "no, we can't add to the Advanced class
definitions."
(My working definition was something like "whatever is NOT guaranteed".)
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templelady
{{{{Sabine}}}}
Thus is TWI exposed.
Using one of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost to make one of God's precious children feel that HE didn't love them. Simply because they didn't receive that gift.
And we fell for it, hook line and sinker, what should have been a Joyful, spiritually enriching experience if it happened, became a thing of drudgery and fear
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TheEvan
Since you mention fruit, guessalot, haw 'bout this: (There is such a thing as stretching an analogy beyond its intended meaning, but I think this works)
Fruit, though representing desirable qualities for the individual, has two primay functions outside of being 'nice' for the person living with them. Fruit doesn't normally decorate the tree...flowers do that.
1. It contains seed for growing more of the same...it has life.
2. It provides needed nourishment for others.
I'll contend that Der Veg was notably weak in this area, weaker than your average church on the corner.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
sabine
welcome
i am glad this thread has helped you
i spoke clear and loud at the end of session 12 and i can assure you i was a phoney so maybe you did the right thing {i think you did} you just weren't a phoney!!! good for you
welcome
please don't be a stranger
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allan w.
I am quite convinced I spoke 'genuinely' in tongues at the end of session 12 ! Does that mean I'm not a phoney ?
I still believe every born again Christian has the ability, the problem is some give up, some don't understand it, others are just taught wrong by their denominations.
O.k. heres how I manifested.
At the end of session 12 when I stood up to speak in tongues, I thought one spoke in English and others heard it in 'tongues'. I think I had slept through half the sessions !!
Anyway, Selina who had 'manifested' by session 8 went around telling everyone " Allan didn't speak in tongues, Allan didn't speak in tongues "
Needless to say I was pretty bummed out. Anyways..the class had a bbq at the end, I had a beer (yeah it was pretty cool at that time ). Half an hour later I was standing at the 'throne' having a 'piddle' and I just opened my mouth and spoke a couple of words and....oh, so that's how it works..!!
See, I don't believe ANYBODY gets 'missed'.
" Thus is twi exposed" would have to be one of the 'lamest' comments that has been posted on this thread so far.
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templelady
Some people in TWi recieved this gift and some didn't, simple as that.
The problem is when people run around flaunting the fact that they received a present and others didn't and then claim fact they did receive a present makes them somehow better than others.
That is called 1) bad manners and 2) untrue
Even if I, for purposes of this discussion only, acede to the idea that we were all suppposed to recieve this gift, it is still 1) bad manners and 2) untrue
to flaunt the gift and claim others aren't loved who didn't receive, or can 't manifest or whatever.
If you use the Word to hurt the spirit of your brothers and sisters then you are corrupting the Word
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sirguessalot
i usually save this sort of thing for the doctrinal dungeon
but it seems to fit here as well
i want to offer a quick sample of an idea of how the manifestations might actually make more sense:
1) if left in the order Paul wrote them
2) if looked at in terms of always already present nature of reality (all of which is already always spiritual), and not some exclusive gift given to an exclusive group...but the everpresent truth of God (that man simply falls asleep to when we enter any sort of monochromatic worldview/Godview.)
3) if looked at in terms of sequential unfolding...how each manifestation comes through the previous manifestations, and builds upon the quality and nature of the previous manifestations, and so the quality of the resultant stack of manifestations can be traced back through them all...maybe think "conveyor belt" or "spiritual continuum"
ok...
1) word of wisdom = asking a question. the foundations of our spiritual self always starts with a simple question. A crying newborn is the earliest example i can think of. The art of asking a newer and better question on the spot.
2) word of knowledge = finding an answer...which naturally comes through word of wisdom, and hopefully produces more and better "words of wisdom."
3) faith = the results of all our questions and answers...which is something we can rely on, and have confidence in. Faith is never perfect, and always has an element of gambling. In this sense....science IS what is meant by faith, especially when our private questions and answers are compared. Faith is that which has been proven.
4) gifts of healing...the results of better questions, answers, and faith (science) naturally leads to better ways of being born, living, diet, wellness, wholeness, healing and dying. Better medicine. Which says a lot for the importance of quality in the previous 3 manifestations. We may not even always know why healing and wholeness comes...and who cares...its a gift, regardless.
5) miracles...the results of all the previous 4...great advancements and wonders in healing, science, answers...even amazing new questions we may have never thought to ask come like miracles. When we apply all the previous together...things tend to break loose. And who cares why...if it works, it works . if it doesnt, it doesnt.
6) prophecy, forecasting, predictions...with the increase in quality of the all the previous 5, greater patterns and trends emerge. This is where we sense how every thing moves in waves, tides, and seasons.
7) discerning of spirits...the art of science of studying the super patterns and super trends in terms of spectrums of reality, and of whole truths with many parts.
8) speaking in tongues...the art and science of speaking of the spectrum of reality. In this sense, each level of the spectrum is a "tongue," or voice, or tone of an "angel."
9) interpretation of tongues...the art and science of explaining the overall spectrum, which is to explain Christ as the inward man, and its relationship to the outer world. To speak of the Christ, is to speak of all "angels" at once, as a whole, and how they work in harmony.
again, it seems as if each manifestations comes through each other in an unfolding manner
but also...tend to support each other in the reverse order as they unfold
peace
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
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allan w.
That is why I still believe that every b/a Christian has the ability to manifest. Yes , some are better at some manif/ gifts than others, yet all have the ability.
If I am in a precarious situation, do I need to wait for someone with 'word of knowledge' ability to turn up ??
The rain falls on the just and the unjust, how much more the gifts of God.
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templelady
Because not all gifts are appropriate for all people
I wouldn't give a lawn tractor to someone who lives in an apartment
Likewise God will give the gifts that are of the most benefit to the individual to that individual
TO say that all need the same gift or gifts is denying our individuality, but then, that is precisely what TWI tried to do, stamp us out with one cookie cutter like we were play-doh
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allan w.
Well, as (I think it was Ex-10) said in an earlier post, the things are there to prove to ourselves.
lds want to go around trying to prove that a spirit being, a 'resurrected moroni' swooned around with gold plates, great. I'd rather spend my time proving to myself that all nine manifestations are real and can often be seen, heard, felt, on a (sometimes daily) basis.
I often meet many people who do not experience the 'manifestations' saying, "what a bunch of boloney", but there aren't many who GENUINELY manifest that say the same thing....I wonder why that is ?!
p.s. I wasn't talking about lawn tractors Mo. Things of the spirit as opposed to gifts in the 5 senses realm.
There's a slight differn'ce !
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templelady
King James Version
1 Corinthians 12
8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
VPW taught that
"severally as he will" modified "every man" which meant that man decided what gifts he would receive ergo "all nine all the time"
He treated
,"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.", as a sentence
But it's not a sentence, it is the end of the sentence that starts in Verse 8. Throughout that sentence the personage doing the action is The Spirit therefore the modifier "as he will" applies to the one doing the acting namely The Spirit.
New International Version
8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
New American Standard Version
8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Amplified Version
8To one is given in and through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] a message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] a word of knowledge and understanding according to the same [Holy] Spirit;
9To another [wonder-working] faith by the same [Holy] Spirit, to another the extraordinary powers of healing by the one Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles, to another prophetic insight (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose); to another the ability to discern and distinguish between [the utterances of true] spirits [and false ones], to another various kinds of [unknown] tongues, to another the ability to interpret [such] tongues. 11All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses.
New Living Version
8To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another he gives the gift of special knowledge. 9The Spirit gives special faith to another, and to someone else he gives the power to heal the sick. 10He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and to another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, and another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.
Contemporary English Version
8Some of us can speak with wisdom, while others can speak with knowledge, but these gifts come from the same Spirit. 9To others the Spirit has given great faith or the power to heal the sick 10or the power to work mighty miracles. Some of us are prophets, and some of us recognize when God's Spirit is present. Others can speak different kinds of languages, and still others can tell what these languages mean. 11But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us
Young's Literal Translation
8for to one through the Spirit hath been given a word of wisdom, and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
9and to another faith in the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healings in the same Spirit;
10and to another in-workings of mighty deeds; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; and to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues: 11and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth
Wycliffe New Testement
And the word of wisdom is given to one by Spirit [To another forsooth by Spirit the word of wisdom is given]; to another the word of knowing, by the same Spirit;
9 faith to another, in the same Spirit; to another, grace of healings [a], in one Spirit;
10 to another, the working of works of power; to another, prophecy; to another, very knowing of spirits; to another, kinds of languages; to another, expounding of words. [to another, the working of virtues; to another, prophecy; to another, discretion, or very knowing, of spirits; to another, kinds of tongues, or languages; to another, interpreting, or expounding, of words.] 11 And one and the same Spirit worketh all these things [Forsooth all these things one and the same Spirit worketh], parting to each by themselves as he will
Clearly VPW based the entire "all nine all the time" theory on his faulty understanding of sentence structure
Not one other scholar agrees with his PI of verse 11
Faulty understand=Faulty Doctrine
there you go with the apples and oranges again
The fact that all nine manifestations are real has never been the issue, the fact that all of us have all of them is
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