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Good one, Mel. I know George. I'll let him know you cited him.

Just for the record - I’ve mentioned this before - the definition for “hard hitting” as often associated with tough journalists who do their job - is uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts...so forgive me if I don’t consider your dodging and relentless promotion of a charlatan like wierwille as “hard hitting”...and honestly in my humble opinion that’s about as hard hitting as a wet noodle Especially when you often display a flair for distorting facts or simply re-imagining an “alternate truth or facts, or history” - revisionist style ! . and I find this odd too - when you said - “I've been at this a very long time, I was lucky to get a LOT of facts that none knew here, and I was sheltered from a lot of the BS of the Corps.” I tend to think the stories, incidents, facts as told by former corps, staff, WOWs, etc on Grease Spot are truly hard hitting - they reveal the dark underbelly of the charlatan ! so I’m not sure if that is the BS you’re talking about?

Dear Mike: After reading your latest verbose fairytale ramblings, I have come to the conclusion that it is fruitless to discuss anything about dictor paul, TWIt, the Bible, or piffle with you ever again. To once again quote Thomas Paine, “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.” I’m happy to discuss anything else with you, share a glass of wine some time maybe......but NO MAS on anything Bible, Wierwille, TWIt, or piffle. Bette sums up how I feel about discussing any of the aforementioned “spiritual topics” with you. Never again! LOL! TY.......and......peace. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214804932574770&set=a.10214089284524016.1073741830.1169468755&

Terrific posts Skyrider and T-bone! Thank you both for such self-reflective insight into the myriad, varied, yet quite profound, psycho-emotional factors which caused so many of the idealistic youth of the 60s to be prime “cult bait”. I was among them as were you, and all of those who spent any amount of time getting gobbled up by all the various “spiritual growth” programs offered by the cult. The doctrine they manufactured was certainly “self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing”, especially adept at manufacturing “spiritual needs” which only their manufactured doctrine could meet. Then, add in the guilt motivation of “Gawd has no hands but our hands blah blah blah yada yada yada in the name of Jesus Christ amen, with a little “what has this ministry cost YOU? How much have YOU given to God? Christ was willing to die! Are YOU??”, and, of course, a lot of fear of “not measuring up” to whatever shifting “spiritual priorities” were manufactured to maintain the ever-changing standards of “the prorgram(ming)”, moving the goal posts of that “spiritual maturity” which gawd required of his “douloi”, further and further away, requiring more and more $$ and “training” for never-ending programs living only on a “needs basis”. Not a cult, eh?? LOL! The “Art” of sociopathic, malignant, narcissistic behavior disorders ALWAYS includes “charming” and “engagingly manipulative” personality traits in those so afflicted. Such behavior is not only diagnostic, but also predictive of future pathological behavior as the patient progressively decompensates while the disease progresses, and goes untreated. This hindsight is 20/20 though. It is the result of my post-cult Nursing education and 25 years of practice. Remember the old adage, “ if only I knew now what I knew then, I woulda, shoulda, coulda.....”? I have learned through life experience that such thinking is self-defeating. It deals with “what IF” instead of “what IS”. That sabotages any productive self-reflection while rationalizing continued behavioral inaction as a “frustrating waste of time”. That inaction and rationalization freezes your identity at whatever stage you are willing to accept in order to relieve the frustration. Usually, that locks folks into the identity formation stage of human development. Normally, that stage occurs during the ages of 21-32. How old were YOU at the height of your TWIt involvement? In the Corpse? Way Home? WOW VET?Bet it was somewhere between age 18-32, unless you had a kid or 2. There are as many psychoemotional factors contributing to our being “cult bait” as there are individuals who unwittingly became cultists. IMO, posts such as Skyrider and T-bone have posted here, are the greatest weapons we here at the GSC have in our arsenal of FACTS and eyewitness accounts from honest, altruistic, and concerned ex-wayfers, of the other side of the TWIt stohree. TWIt and it’s offshoots hate this site because it exposes the purulent underbellies of each and all of their cults. The Truth only hurts those who stand against it! Selah...........peace.

You said it, not me...

Thanks DWBH.... Yes, TWIt and its offshoots hate this site. None of them have a site where open thought, discussion and questions are in public view. And lately, here at GSC......there has been many new posters coming to this site. Some are second generation kids who were raised in twi and are now grappling with the aftermath of this evolving cult that has consumed their wayfaring parents and relatives. Adding to this complexity are the dozens upon dozens of offshoots with their books and classes claiming that THEY hold the spiritual mantle of truth. Stop the merry-go-round.........and let's take a walk. In the late 60's, several factors emerged that contributed to the rise of cult leaders and those attracted to cults (lifestyle and doctrine). The socio-dynamic of church involvement was changing rapidly. The counterculture of the 60s was a diaspora into the '70s. Technology was advancing......pfal filmed on 16mm, then VHS-format Displaced youth.......searching for meaning, acceptance, belonging Note: One generation of displaced youth propelled twi forward to the cult that it is today. Wierwille cut ties with his Van Wert Church in 1957.......to follow in the steps of many elders, and contemporaries, who traveled across the country teaching at retreats and church-related seminars. Some of the men on this list and the year that wierwille encountered them: E. Stanley Jones (1944), Rufus Moseley (1946), Perry Hayden (1946), Glenn Clark (1948), J.E. Stiles (1951), Starr Daily (1952), and B.G. Leonard (1953). For thirteen (13) years, wierwille was taking notes and gleaning from their ministries......all while he was on Van Wert Church payroll. And, it seems apparent........that Leonard's foundational class in 1953 is what spurred the impetus of wierwille to, finally, break from the denominational structure. From 1958-1967, wierwille taught live pfal classes and Mal George helped teach a handful of them. Going into their tenth year........and the results were miniscule. Nearly 80% of students from all those classes never committed to The Way, Inc. The strategy of reaching church-people "with the word" was a bust......wierwille's independent undertaking was barely paying the bills. And, the BRC was a non-descript rural building with no church bells or steeple........and very few people. So, wierwille threw caution to the wind in 1967.......and stared into intense, glaring lights to teach and film a 36-hour class. Strapped for cash, time and "borrowed" furniture, wierwille was under immense pressure to get this class filmed in an allotted time frame. Crazy as all this was......the confluence of technology, the counterculture hippie movement, and displaced youth provided a wave of interest, excitement and involvement to wierwille's rogue underpinnings. Youth leaders and guitar singers bridged the gap between homiletics and hippies........and the displaced youth soon found a place in an Ohio commune. Note: One generation of youth leaders and guitar singers bridged the gap between homiletics, hippies and holy spirit. Wierwille NEEDED the youth far more than they needed him or his teachings. He exploited their involvement and their vulnerabilities. Many young leaders came and left.......but their zealous involvement and connections brought waves upon waves of other displaced youth longing for belonging. And, even though the zero corps was shut down....... those corps from 1-5 went forward with ten years of solid commitment......AND THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING. In their zeal, WOWs beget more WOWs......and corps beget more corps. The *youth factor* was the driving force of the movement.......not wierwille. And, those early years (1968-1974) at headquarters would infiltrate the minds of scores upon scores of corps grads to follow. The displaced youth had found their "family".......and a place to call home. As headquarters grew into a full-fledged compound......it became self-contained. You didn't need to go anywhere, for anything.......except beer and wine. Heck, even George Jess wine was known to be available to a select few. Hardly needed to leave grounds...... Three square meals a day...... Snack shop......and grilled burgers after meetings In-house entertainment.........indoor/outdoor, bands, dancing, fun Personal services.........haircuts, laundry, taxes, dentist at Indiana Campus Car services.......help with repairs / barter services Who needed much money?........many lived on-grounds and walked to work Note: One generation stayed so long......that they started having babies. Corps were graduating year after year and getting married. By 1976, a second generation of "cult-babies" are being pushed around in strollers. No, it wasn't many at first.......but six years later, by 1982.......babies and strollers were everywhere at corps week and roa. And, why not......the youth had "found a home." The displaced youth had moved from transition and were transferring these perceptions and identities to this pseudo-family. Wierwille addressed aspects of "this place is your home" on many a night owl. I knew many who considered Mrs. Wierwille as the mother that they never had, or knew. Others, whose father or mother died prematurely, took refuge in this "Uncle Harry Nostalgia" and was furthered when the Corps Chalet was being built.......that corps could stay for a couple days whenever they were passing by. Not only the commune lifestyle, but the doctrine.........I remember several times when wierwille taught about ownership versus stewardship. Why do you need to OWN things?.....wierwille claimed. It only slows you down, burdens you with the world. It's far better to have access of the ministry's stuff, than to own something yourself. Here you get to enjoy the way woods, the house of his healing presence, and all......without the expense and maintenance of it. All those years of evolving rhetoric......1) Burn the Ballast, 2) Burn the Chaff, to 3) Uncle Harry Day. Get rid of anything that is holding you back.......record albums, yearbooks, instruments, trinkets/jewelry, worldly books, family heirlooms and keepsakes, etc. Each year, around March 17th..... the communal fire at headquarters would roar as we rationalized the process and felt heavy guilt to obey. The manufactured doctrine and lifestyle was set ablaze......until 1985, when the death of the man and his fire ceased. What started out as a search for meaning, acceptance and belonging..........yielded years of detours, dead-ends and blind alleys. So, yeah........there's a lot to unpack from these cult travels. .

Actually, there are plenty of facts you repeatedly choose to ignore. Many woman have written testimonials here about how Saint Vic forced himself on them. Losing the Way is another book of facts you've chosen to ignore. This is like a jury saying, We don't want to hear anything about the crime, just tell us what a model citizen the defendant was. How can you make an honest decision based on half the information? So you have no trouble forgiving Saint Vic, but you have a problem forgiving everyone here. Proof? How many accusations have you made at the people here? Just a few post down, you accuse ssomeone of trying to trip you up. And you know what goes on in his mind, how? You've accused Twinky of using lawyer tricks. And you know her intent how? Where is all that forgiveness your preaching? And your presidence for this is what? For us professional question askers (lawyers, procecutors, journalist, etc.) when somebody dodges a question it usually means one of two things: a). They haven't thought their story through b). They're hiding something

good night sleep tight. Don't let the bed bugs bite.

Mike, how much alcohol must you consume to come up with this malarky?

Mike, I think people here have forgiven you a number of times. However, when people present you with facts, you give them a lot of insipid answers. Personally, I think you don't want to admit, to being wrong. I give up Mike; I don't have the patience to deal with you. Shalom!

Yes...and if you hadn't noticed what George said 2 paragraphs later in that same post: "Although I doubt you'll pay any attention to this advice whatsoever (you know the TRUTH after all)." And it's been 16 years since he said that. SO --- Is George a prophet? (LMAO)

I understand, Mel. It's the same thing Mike's been saying since the start of GSC.

ROCKY: Actually (in the previous post, from the 2002 link) George Aar had said to Mike, "Basically aren't you simply saying "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"?" And isn't it strange how Mike replied in the very next post: "NO GEORGE...Don't waste my time and yours with the facts. I've already seen them all, long before you did, and I've FINALLY made up my mind." Isn't it utterly ironic how Mike contradicted himself --- first disagreeing with George, but (in his very next breath) agreeing with exactly what George had said to him! Rather confusing, huh?

Mike, I don't "assume," this of you; I know it's true from reading your posts. People try to discuss ideas with you, and you often blow them off. Many people here, try to discuss ideas with you, and you give them "the run around." Mike, you keep saying the same things, over and over. God forbid, you should change your mind, and realize that VPW, and TWI were garbage. Well, if you want to think that VPW was wonderful, and your time in TWI was well-spent, that is your right. Me, I know that VPW was Garbage, and TWI was, and is an evil cult. Do what you want; I want people here at the GSC, to get answers to their questions about TWI.

Mike, you're rambling... very nearly incoherently. The ONE thing that is obvious from (and I did actually READ the entire comment) is that, beside rambling, you fawningly rationalized the irrational acts of a guy you can't defend any other way.

Interesting slant from science, T-Bone! As for me, I eventually wised up and left TWI. I can say in all truth that I was in their "inescapable" gravitational pull for quite some time. I remember LCM remarking: "If you ever forsake this ministry, God won't even spit in your direction." (The way I see it, I never really liked the idea of God spitting on me anyway.) And another of his quotes: "If you leave The Way, you'll be a grease spot by midnight!" Well, guess what? I did leave them --- and HERE I AM...a Greasespot! And the coffee here is delicious!

Maybe a bit off topic, but I have something to say: There's been talk here about how to define just who "your spiritual leaders" are. I have a story which might shed some light on this: First, let us keep in mind Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and IS a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." From the above, we understand it's entirely possible to actually perceive what's going on in people's hearts and minds by understanding appropriate related scriptures. And that's still true --- even when they themselves may not be fully aware of it! This is a very important part of discerning spiritual situations. I once had a Twig Coordinator (name withheld) who wasn't very nice to me personally. It seems he never had much good to say of me --- if anything at all! But still, I put up with his often rudeness the best I could. While it's true I did much to help in the fellowship and conducted myself well, I never heard even one word of thanks, or "good job" from him. However, he was very quick to point out each and every fault he could find on me (like a fly on .... ). And many times it wasn't even justified, meaning that he was accusing me falsely! [This is one of the so-called 7 deadly sins from Prov 6:19 (#7) "and he that soweth discord among brethren.". It also relates with the 8th commandment --- from Ex 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."] Anyway, one time I was reading in Galatians and something stuck out to me. I've bolded the part which struck a chord in my heart: Rom 13:1-3 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and THOU SHALT HAVE praise of the same:" According to this, true spiritual leaders are defined by God himself --- and NOT because someone has a corpse ring on his finger and sanction by some earthly ministry to be my leader! This is done in heaven --- and is in accordance with what the Word declares. (Remember Heb 4:12?) Simply because this guy didn't give me praise when it was warranted, it was revealed to my heart that he was NOT REALLY MY LEADER at all; for if he truly was, he would have conducted himself accordingly. So one day (when I had enough of his BS) I confronted him about denying me those "words of praise" when they were due. And he laughed at me. So I took him to the section in Romans 13 and showed it to him. And I told him that I no longer considered him my spiritual leader because of it. And he laughed me to scorn! And from then on, I made it a point "not to obey him in all things". Instead of putting up with his nonsense during fellowship, I constantly confronted him (in front of everyone) when he would accuse me falsely. In a short time, he became very frustrated! In fact, he got so upset that he actually left the area. (He even divorced his wife, quit the ministry all together --- and moved back to Louisiana where he was brought up!) And thus: The truth I had boldly declared became true upon earth, even as in heaven --- that he was no longer my leader, or for that matter, anyone's leader! (Actually, he never was anyway --- get it?) There are many similar parameters like this within the Word --- which truly define life's situations. And the more of them we notice, the wiser we shall be in evaluating the proper associations we should make among people --- and choices which will enhance our lives for the better.

Yeah..........it is nauseatingly gut wrenching to look back at that cult exploitation with eyes wide open. Thankfully, I didn't stay in that cult for 40 years, or more............like many in that R&R group. Then, there are those like that new poster who stated that he was in twi for 14 years and a Geer group for 18 years!! These splinter groups take a slice of cultism, home-brew it........and just as manipulative. Dealing with tree suckers.......... "Sometimes a tree starts looking more like a shrub, with a bushy clump of young stems sprouting from the base or from a spot on the trunk. Those stems are called suckers, because they zap water and nutrients from the main tree. As suckers are unhealthy for trees and they are unsightly, it’s important to know how to eliminate them and when possible, how to prevent them in the first place." Same with way tree suckers........ Eliminate them........from your life Prevent them in the first place.....do not attend How many more "tree suckers" are going to sprout up from the R&R group? Five? Seven? Ten? It is ALL so sickening........ my wife is in contact with a corps grad who left twi some 20 years ago and she still gravitates to a splinter twig that meets twice a month. There are corps grads out there who STILL cleave to pseudo-pfal jargon and "teach twig" like it was 1974. Ugh.

Here is a site that might interest you Mike. http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/w17.html Go to the "Articles" section and read what Donald E. Dicks Master's thesis has to say. It is in PDF format, so you will need Adobe Acrobat. I'll attempt to convert my download of the paper and share snipets when and where needed. This is part of what Mr. Dicks has to say about Wierwille's work in print. This is pertinent to your discussion of the "print/tape" record you are so fond about. If Wierwille's PFAL series is in fact as stated by another? poster other than you then I think that God has lost His mind. Mike, for your own good, and those who love you, my advice is simple: Worship God and love Him, put Jesus Christ and his Father in the central part of your heart. Wierwille is NOT God.

I forget who first said this, but it's so worth repeating here: Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Wierwille's abuses, lies and indiscretions are facts. You may decide whether they outweigh his preaching and teaching ministry, but you are not entitled to decide whether or not they are facts. They are. Facts.

Mike, I feel compelled to make an observation that you might not agree with but might be worth considering, even though I'm committed to letting you say your piece and wind this out. I'm not sure how much contact you have with actual, living former PFAL grads, so bear with me for a sec. "Mastering" PFAL isn't an impossible task nor is it one that has never been accomplished. Over the years it's taken on a somewhat mystical and vague "spiritual plateau" kind of aura. VP's instructions notwithstanding, any thinking person needs to really look at that honestly and clearly before embarking on a journey to accomplish it if that's what they want to do. (VP states in your last lost teaching that is what people should do. I personally think that his perspective on how and what people were doing with his teaching was in reality somewhat clouded his final years, warped slightly by his perceptions that the ministry he had invested his life in had abandoned the precepts of what he felt important. He wasn't entirely in touch with the ministry as a whole, by any means, and had many unresolved issues with his own top leadership. That's not a criticism on face value, just a very general way of saying that VP was fighting a battle that was very much his own as well as his ministry's...Now, that's all debatable, but I'm not entering that to argue it, just to site that's my background opinion. To you this teaching represents some kind of clarity, but to me it's much like what he said over and over again over the years.) PFAL, the series of 3 classes including Intermediate and Advanced, (although VP himself said oftentimes that everything was included in the Foundational PFAL) was a class on "Keys". He said he didn't intend to teach the bible from Genesis to Revelation, rather to teach the keys and principles that would open the bible to the student and allow them to learn and walk themselves. As far as the CONTENT of PFAL, it's knowable. It seems huge the first time through, but anyone who made a reasonable effort soon realized that it was 12 sessions, each about 3 hours long, and with a few hours a month even at the minimum, it was learnable and knowable. The basic ideas, concepts and techniques aren't terribly difficult to learn. I think some of the ideas and conclusions don't add up quite the way he presented them, but that's another topic. Overall, he covered a lot of bible and got me reading it. "Mastering" has different definitions, depending on the content. If learning the books of the bible is part of mastering it, then once memorized, you're done. Speaking in tongues, the same. Once you learn what it is and manifest, mastering it is to simply continue doing it. "Mastery" of S.I.T. was and is as easy to achieve as any of the things of God. It's not a grunt and groan "look what I did" kind of thing. So please consider this: the difference between learning and mastering. We see through a glass darkly and will NEVER "master" walking with God because 1) we won't know as we are known till we are gathered or raised with Christ, and 2) life isn't a mastery of anything, it's an ongoing process of growth and learning. Today we know as much as we can, tomorrow, the same and hopefully a little more. He who becomes the "master" in his mind, is the slave of his own knowledge because he's stopped learning. I'm fully aware that there are people "out there" who feel like you and are struggling with their own inner battles over "what happend and what went wrong". I can see how each must take their own course, and each will do that. Just consider this - to many, the understanding of PFAL as a thing to master and maintain was an early part of the growth curve. Ultimately, one of the primary initiatives presented by VP was to take what he offered, learn it, and take it even further-do something with it, apply it somehow. Unfortunately, he didn't allow for the fact that such a "mastery" might include drastic change. But then, he was just a man like you and I. I'm not trying to be egotistical, just offering this perspective. Give it a whirl. ---------------------- Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....

Mike, your remarks do not absolve you of the responsibility to answer honest questions honestly, if you can. Can you? Probably not.

Mike, Most folks here have considered a lot more than you think they have. "All this" is nothing new. Your whole spiel is premised on Wierwille's tale of God speaking to him audibly in 1942. If that happened as Wierwille described, then what you say could have some merit. If it didn't, then Wierwille was not only a lier and a fraud, but also A FALSE PROPHET, which is a pretty big deal to anyone who believes the Bible. Even if the tale were true, that would not mean that Wierwille didn't become a fraud and a false prophet afterwards. You haven't offered a single reason for anyone to think that Wierwille's tale was true. The Bible offers a lot of reasons for Bible believers to think that Wierwille was a false prophet.

Mike, Re your comment: "So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on," Basically aren't you simply saying "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"? And as far as the losses in your life due to your abject adherence to Wierwillian dogma, I've known numerous people over the years who've lost at least as much due to their unthinking obediance to alcohol, heroin, pornography, or other debilitating vices. The fact that your addiction has a veneer of respectability doesn't mitigate the harmfulness of it. Although I doubt you'll pay any attention to this advice whatsoever (you know the TRUTH after all). Why not take a break from your "Prophet of the true MOG" status for a few months and see things from a little different perspective for awhile? The change just might do you some good. geo.