I've been in situations where I had to explain to some "outsiders" about TWI. Very important meetings and such.
I'll as an aside describe TWI as a cult.
They'll ask, "What makes it a cult"
What do you do? Hand them a book?
It can't be explained. Not in any serious context, not when it matters.
Maybe cults don't really exist? It's all in your head, right? Just a word for pop culture or something of the like? Cult, religion, church . . . all synonyms?
Try referring to it as an MLM . That's what it was. People understand what MLM's are. Add that it had a religious twist , if questioned further, selling classes and books, etc..
Try referring to it as an MLM . That's what it was. People understand what MLM's are. Add that it had a religious twist , if questioned further, selling classes and books, etc..
You might find this article in Wikipedia helpful: Cult
It's quite lengthy, but readable, and the main theme is about "deviant" beliefs ie, beliefs that deviate from norms - eg, deviate from Christian norms (but cults can and do exist around many beliefs - extremist Muslim beliefs, beliefs in extra-terrestrials, political views, TV programs, or even that one type of motorcycle or car is "better" than another).
Here's an extract, from the introduction to the Wikipedia article:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or other social group with socially deviant and novel beliefs and practices. However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, and thus establishing a precise definition based on these criteria is problematic.The English word often carries derogatory connotations.
The word "cult" has been controversial. One reason is that it (as used in the pejorative sense) is considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition. It has also been used selectively by proponents of mind control theory.
I've been in situations where I had to explain to some "outsiders" about TWI. Very important meetings and such.
I'll as an aside describe TWI as a cult.
They'll ask, "What makes it a cult"
What do you do? Hand them a book?
It can't be explained. Not in any serious context, not when it matters.
Maybe cults don't really exist? It's all in your head, right? Just a word for pop culture or something of the like? Cult, religion, church . . . all synonyms?
It can be explained. It has been explained. Just because you don't understand it enough to explain it doesn't mean someone else hasn't.
The wikipedia article Twinky cited has a couple of dozen references/citations/articles by scholars who have studied the phenomenon.
Philip Zimbardo, an emeritus professor at Stanford, studied and
. He's also one of the references in the wiki on cult.
Edited by Rocky
It can be explained. It has been explained. Just because you don't understand it enough to explain it doesn't mean someone else hasn't.
The wikipedia article Twinky cited has a couple of dozen references/citations/articles by scholars who have studied the phenomenon.
Philip Zimbardo, an emeritus professor at Stanford, studied and
. He's also one of the references in the wiki on cult.
Yes I've read the wiki site before, thank you. In casual conversations there's time to explain. If someone wants to burn time to listen.
Does government recognize cults as a bad thing? I don't think so. The term "religious extremest" is used for bad groups.
I was caught off guard when asked several times by several different people, professionals in their varying fields. No I have not come up with a concise, clear way to communicate a cult experience. I've begun to believe it can't be done, because our society doesn't make room for it.
Does government recognize cults as a bad thing? I don't think so. The term "religious extremest" is used for bad groups.
Due to First Amendment issues, the government is careful how they phrase things concerning
religions. It's easy for someone to slap a LABEL of "cult" on a group. If one person in the government
REPEATS it, then it's a big deal- especially if the group turns out NOT to be one.
The government takes cults seriously, depending on the specific issues involved, and the level of
government involved. Look at what's left of the Branch Davidians after the ATF got involved if you
think the government categorically blows things off.
I was caught off guard when asked several times by several different people, professionals in their varying fields. No I have not come up with a concise, clear way to communicate a cult experience. I've begun to believe it can't be done, because our society doesn't make room for it.
Or, you could phrase it as a question here. Something like:
"If you had to explain to someone what a 'cult' is in 30 seconds or less, without them misunderstanding, how would you do it?"
Then you could tap the skills of the other posters here. That's one good thing about messageboards.
The way I explain it is that I was involved in and worked for an abusive Christian ministry and the experience heavily affected my life during the time I was involved in it, and even affects me today from time to time because the experience was very traumatic. The reason it was so traumatic was because these were people who were supposed to love and do good for others, but the meaning of "love" and "good" were twisted to be manipulative and harmful to those involved on a mental, emotional, financial, familial, and relational level. It's doctrines were made to control every aspect of a follower's life.
I do use the word "cult" to describe TWI, but it's not my first choice. People hear the word and think of the Moonies, and Jim Jones, and Waco, and Satanism. I use the phrase "abusive fundamentalist Christian church" first, and then "fundamentalist Christian cult" once there has been some explanation of my experiences.
The way I explain it is that I was involved in and worked for an abusive Christian ministry and the experience heavily affected my life during the time I was involved in it, and even affects me today from time to time because the experience was very traumatic. The reason it was so traumatic was because these were people who were supposed to love and do good for others, but the meaning of "love" and "good" were twisted to be manipulative and harmful to those involved on a mental, emotional, financial, familial, and relational level. It's doctrines were made to control every aspect of a follower's life.
I do use the word "cult" to describe TWI, but it's not my first choice. People hear the word and think of the Moonies, and Jim Jones, and Waco, and Satanism. I use the phrase "abusive fundamentalist Christian church" first, and then "fundamentalist Christian cult" once there has been some explanation of my experiences.
That's pretty much the way I explain it too, if anyone asks, which is rare. I don't mind telling people I had been part of an abusive Christian church, but few and far between are the people who enquire further.
Notably, ones who are least sympathetic have been a few ex-Wayfers near where I live. They all left voluntarily - having done little more than gone WoW and so not been involved in major set-tos at higher levels. It was reasonably sweet in this country, far away enough from Ohio's reach unless you encountered a lot of US-trained WC, until CG came and set up at Gartmore, and then things got really noxious, and the E-corps was noxious too. Those local ex Wayfers don't want to hear how bad TWI was nor do they really understand how difficult life has been (for me) as a result of TWI's cruelty.
In my church, people are busy with church life - but in the parent church to my current church, it was the quality of the sermons that caused tears of relief to run down my cheeks. Every week, for six months. I didn't need to talk to anyone, but those near me usually asked if they could so anything to help, when they saw me crying.
Friends at church have asked about it (they've seen the effects) and listen and offer sympathetic noises. They've made some effort to understand but don't quite get the interweaving and entanglement and blighting of all one's thinking processes.
Only one person has really tried to understand and truly wanted to know more. He has made a very good job of understanding, too, and really does recognise the impact (and continuing effects) upon my life. It may be that's because (one of) his roles in the church is as the Child Protection Officer, checking creds of people who do children's ministry or come into contact with children in small group settings, etc, and so is therefore more aware of the devastating effects of abuse of trust.
Perhaps we are ashamed to talk of our "perceived gullibility" at being sucked into a cult?
Perhaps we have been hurt and half-expect others to hurt us again, like TWI did?
Perhaps we are hiding this unpleasant time of our lives?
And undoubtedly most people just really don't want to know. They really don't want to take the time to understand. Perhaps it's hard enough to understand their own thinking processes, without trying to understand someone else's.
Perhaps we are ashamed to talk of our "perceived gullibility" at being sucked into a cult?
Perhaps we have been hurt and half-expect others to hurt us again, like TWI did?
Perhaps we are hiding this unpleasant time of our lives?
And undoubtedly most people just really don't want to know. They really don't want to take the time to understand. Perhaps it's hard enough to understand their own thinking processes, without trying to understand someone else's.
The local cult here, International House of Prayer, had a member commit suicide a few years ago. She lived a few houses down from me. She could have been me - I mean our situations and involvement in our respective cults were very similar. I am older, I married a man who convinced me to leave the cult. She was younger, and married to a man who was a narcissistic sociopath. He basically used her belief in God to drive her to suicide.
That could have been me. There were times when I thought about what I would do if I had been marked and avoided... I decided I would take my car somewhere where no one would find me and I would take pills until I fell asleep and died. And that's what she did. Even the same method of suicide that I had contemplated.
Rolling Stone did an article about her death (now ruled a suicide), and the reporter came to my house as a lead. I told him that day about my background, and then I told him that I wanted him to tell the world that she wasn't stupid, wasn't weak minded... She was manipulated and naïve. She came into a group wanting to do good and be called to a higher purpose. And there is nothing wrong with either of those things. But groups like TWI and IHOP use these good desires people have and twist them into a way to control people. That is where the evil really is. The environment that fosters trust in good hearted people, leading them down the path to their destruction.
I'm just glad I got out before I ended up like her. Poor girl. On the anniversary of her death this year I took a small angel statue and some flowers and left them at the park where they found her body and said a prayer for her soul and for all the rest of us, too.
The Rolling Stone reporter took my advice. Here is a link to the story...
"the main theme is about "deviant" beliefs ie, beliefs that deviate from norms - eg, deviate from Christian norms"
... and that's one way where the 'cult' term fails. ... 'Deviant'? ... By whose definition? ... That is _not_ religiously based? ... As that which is legally protected by law? (1st Amendment) ... Ie., _Prove it_. ... The term 'deviant' is as subjective as hell. How many religious beliefs, both fringe AND mainstream, are regarded as deviant (in some form or fashion) by another religion or group? ... "from Christian norms" ??? And if they're not Christian? They're a 'cult' then? ... Don't you 'anti-cult experts' ever think these things through??
Somebody once asked me "You just don't like the cult term, do you?" ... Duhh, no. ... Can you see why? <_<
This may be useful: It's my checklist for a cult. I figure that if a group's characteristics fit this list, then it's a cult.
CULT aspects:
Leader's Claim of "special knowledge": Wierwille claimed: "He [God] said He would teach me The Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others."
Even though he's dead, let's face it, TWI in New Knoxville and offshoots cling to and promote his fundamentalist teachings, whether they've slightly "revised" them or not.
Control&Indoctrination
Control of information, behavior, emotions, thoughts, and money. Harmful effects on followers:
Shut off their critical thinking capacity.
Fear modernity: evolution, medicine, technology.
Fear the historical-critical approach to the Bible and condemn it.
Invest time, money, energy in cult's goals, not their own.
Suffer health problems, even death, from thinking "I'm healed."
Slap band aid Bible answers on a democratic society's complex problems.
Seize political control to promote their beliefs.
Become paranoid that unbelievers are persecuting them.
Often disrespect other religions and avenues of spirituality.
Develop habits of manipulating people and scriptures.
Break relationships that hinder commitment to the group.
Unwittingly or deliberately spread propaganda.
Lose educational, financial, and relationship opportunities.
A list of things that _you_ say meet the 'cult' criteria. (Which may or may not.) One thing I've noticed: Speaking of critical thinking, How does repeating what you were taught in that list about 'cults' = critical thinking? ... Believe it or not, that is what I'm endeavoring to do myself. ... Critical Thinking. Which _includes_ critical thinking re: what a lot of people claim about 'cults'. ... Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?
Anywho, just somethings to think about.
Peace. ... Really, this time. ... (I have _got_ to learn self-discipline. :blush: )
A list of things that _you_ say meet the 'cult' criteria. (Which may or may not.) One thing I've noticed: Speaking of critical thinking, How does repeating what you were taught in that list about 'cults' = critical thinking? ... Believe it or not, that is what I'm endeavoring to do myself. ... Critical Thinking. Which _includes_ critical thinking re: what a lot of people claim about 'cults'. ... Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?
Anywho, just somethings to think about.
Peace. ... Really, this time. ... (I have _got_ to learn self-discipline. :blush:/>/> )
My last post on this issue is what Raf said with this jewel:
"A cult is a religion that means it."
:dance:/> I'm _definitely_ saving that puppy. _It clearly, and honestly, shows what a 'cult' is, in one short sentence._
I personally don't like equating cults with religious beliefs. There are plenty of cults, past and present, that have nothing to do with religious beliefs. Think about how any hardcore biker "club" operates to interpret my meaning.
I personally don't like equating cults with religious beliefs. There are plenty of cults, past and present, that have nothing to do with religious beliefs. Think about how any hardcore biker "club" operates to interpret my meaning.
Yes. cult, family, gang. The line between selfishness and selflessness. It's somewhere there?
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waysider
Try referring to it as an MLM . That's what it was. People understand what MLM's are. Add that it had a religious twist , if questioned further, selling classes and books, etc..
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Bolshevik
Doesn't sound like a bad thing does it?
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Twinky
You might find this article in Wikipedia helpful: Cult
It's quite lengthy, but readable, and the main theme is about "deviant" beliefs ie, beliefs that deviate from norms - eg, deviate from Christian norms (but cults can and do exist around many beliefs - extremist Muslim beliefs, beliefs in extra-terrestrials, political views, TV programs, or even that one type of motorcycle or car is "better" than another).
Here's an extract, from the introduction to the Wikipedia article:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the sociological classifications of religious movements, a cult is a religious or other social group with socially deviant and novel beliefs and practices. However, whether any particular group's beliefs and practices are sufficiently deviant or novel is often unclear, and thus establishing a precise definition based on these criteria is problematic. The English word often carries derogatory connotations.
The word "cult" has been controversial. One reason is that it (as used in the pejorative sense) is considered a subjective term, used as an ad hominem attack against groups with simply differing doctrines or practices, and without a clear or consistent definition. It has also been used selectively by proponents of mind control theory.
Beginning in the 1930s cults became the object of sociological study in the context of the study of religious behavior. Certain groups have been labeled as cults and opposed by the Christian countercult movement for their unorthodox beliefs …
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Rocky
It can be explained. It has been explained. Just because you don't understand it enough to explain it doesn't mean someone else hasn't.
The wikipedia article Twinky cited has a couple of dozen references/citations/articles by scholars who have studied the phenomenon.
Philip Zimbardo, an emeritus professor at Stanford, studied and
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Rocky
And YES, what Wierwille built was a cult.
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Bolshevik
Yes I've read the wiki site before, thank you. In casual conversations there's time to explain. If someone wants to burn time to listen.
Does government recognize cults as a bad thing? I don't think so. The term "religious extremest" is used for bad groups.
I was caught off guard when asked several times by several different people, professionals in their varying fields. No I have not come up with a concise, clear way to communicate a cult experience. I've begun to believe it can't be done, because our society doesn't make room for it.
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WordWolf
Due to First Amendment issues, the government is careful how they phrase things concerning
religions. It's easy for someone to slap a LABEL of "cult" on a group. If one person in the government
REPEATS it, then it's a big deal- especially if the group turns out NOT to be one.
The government takes cults seriously, depending on the specific issues involved, and the level of
government involved. Look at what's left of the Branch Davidians after the ATF got involved if you
think the government categorically blows things off.
Or, you could phrase it as a question here. Something like:
"If you had to explain to someone what a 'cult' is in 30 seconds or less, without them misunderstanding, how would you do it?"
Then you could tap the skills of the other posters here. That's one good thing about messageboards.
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Bolshevik
Sorry, thought I had.
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Bolshevik
And yes, thanks Wordwolf, this might explain some of what I was seeing.
Groups like twi exist so easily, possibly because of the Constitution.
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JavaJane
The way I explain it is that I was involved in and worked for an abusive Christian ministry and the experience heavily affected my life during the time I was involved in it, and even affects me today from time to time because the experience was very traumatic. The reason it was so traumatic was because these were people who were supposed to love and do good for others, but the meaning of "love" and "good" were twisted to be manipulative and harmful to those involved on a mental, emotional, financial, familial, and relational level. It's doctrines were made to control every aspect of a follower's life.
I do use the word "cult" to describe TWI, but it's not my first choice. People hear the word and think of the Moonies, and Jim Jones, and Waco, and Satanism. I use the phrase "abusive fundamentalist Christian church" first, and then "fundamentalist Christian cult" once there has been some explanation of my experiences.
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Rocky
That's pretty darn good... and plenty concise.
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Twinky
That's pretty much the way I explain it too, if anyone asks, which is rare. I don't mind telling people I had been part of an abusive Christian church, but few and far between are the people who enquire further.
Notably, ones who are least sympathetic have been a few ex-Wayfers near where I live. They all left voluntarily - having done little more than gone WoW and so not been involved in major set-tos at higher levels. It was reasonably sweet in this country, far away enough from Ohio's reach unless you encountered a lot of US-trained WC, until CG came and set up at Gartmore, and then things got really noxious, and the E-corps was noxious too. Those local ex Wayfers don't want to hear how bad TWI was nor do they really understand how difficult life has been (for me) as a result of TWI's cruelty.
In my church, people are busy with church life - but in the parent church to my current church, it was the quality of the sermons that caused tears of relief to run down my cheeks. Every week, for six months. I didn't need to talk to anyone, but those near me usually asked if they could so anything to help, when they saw me crying.
Friends at church have asked about it (they've seen the effects) and listen and offer sympathetic noises. They've made some effort to understand but don't quite get the interweaving and entanglement and blighting of all one's thinking processes.
Only one person has really tried to understand and truly wanted to know more. He has made a very good job of understanding, too, and really does recognise the impact (and continuing effects) upon my life. It may be that's because (one of) his roles in the church is as the Child Protection Officer, checking creds of people who do children's ministry or come into contact with children in small group settings, etc, and so is therefore more aware of the devastating effects of abuse of trust.
Perhaps we are ashamed to talk of our "perceived gullibility" at being sucked into a cult?
Perhaps we have been hurt and half-expect others to hurt us again, like TWI did?
Perhaps we are hiding this unpleasant time of our lives?
And undoubtedly most people just really don't want to know. They really don't want to take the time to understand. Perhaps it's hard enough to understand their own thinking processes, without trying to understand someone else's.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
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JavaJane
The local cult here, International House of Prayer, had a member commit suicide a few years ago. She lived a few houses down from me. She could have been me - I mean our situations and involvement in our respective cults were very similar. I am older, I married a man who convinced me to leave the cult. She was younger, and married to a man who was a narcissistic sociopath. He basically used her belief in God to drive her to suicide.
That could have been me. There were times when I thought about what I would do if I had been marked and avoided... I decided I would take my car somewhere where no one would find me and I would take pills until I fell asleep and died. And that's what she did. Even the same method of suicide that I had contemplated.
Rolling Stone did an article about her death (now ruled a suicide), and the reporter came to my house as a lead. I told him that day about my background, and then I told him that I wanted him to tell the world that she wasn't stupid, wasn't weak minded... She was manipulated and naïve. She came into a group wanting to do good and be called to a higher purpose. And there is nothing wrong with either of those things. But groups like TWI and IHOP use these good desires people have and twist them into a way to control people. That is where the evil really is. The environment that fosters trust in good hearted people, leading them down the path to their destruction.
I'm just glad I got out before I ended up like her. Poor girl. On the anniversary of her death this year I took a small angel statue and some flowers and left them at the park where they found her body and said a prayer for her soul and for all the rest of us, too.
The Rolling Stone reporter took my advice. Here is a link to the story...
Bethany
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Bolshevik
That's awful JJ.
Whenever go look for help I get more Bible. Everyone's a damned priest. They seem to enjoy watching me hemorrhage inside.
What's a cult? Nobody knows.
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GarthP2000
"the main theme is about "deviant" beliefs ie, beliefs that deviate from norms - eg, deviate from Christian norms"
... and that's one way where the 'cult' term fails. ... 'Deviant'? ... By whose definition? ... That is _not_ religiously based? ... As that which is legally protected by law? (1st Amendment) ... Ie., _Prove it_. ... The term 'deviant' is as subjective as hell. How many religious beliefs, both fringe AND mainstream, are regarded as deviant (in some form or fashion) by another religion or group? ... "from Christian norms" ??? And if they're not Christian?
They're a 'cult' then? ... Don't you 'anti-cult experts' ever think these things through??
Somebody once asked me "You just don't like the cult term, do you?" ... Duhh, no. ... Can you see why? <_<
"abusive fundamentalist Christian church"
Now _there's_ a good one.
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Raf
A cult is a religion that means it.
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GarthP2000
... and you want to take a wager how many _that_ would be? :wink2:/>
You don't mind if I borrow this quote of yours, do you Raf?
I even gave you credit. Too good not to use.
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penworks
This may be useful: It's my checklist for a cult. I figure that if a group's characteristics fit this list, then it's a cult.
CULT aspects:
Leader's Claim of "special knowledge": Wierwille claimed: "He [God] said He would teach me The Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others."
Even though he's dead, let's face it, TWI in New Knoxville and offshoots cling to and promote his fundamentalist teachings, whether they've slightly "revised" them or not.
Control &Indoctrination
Control of information, behavior, emotions, thoughts, and money. Harmful effects on followers:
- Shut off their critical thinking capacity.
- Fear modernity: evolution, medicine, technology.
- Fear the historical-critical approach to the Bible and condemn it.
- Invest time, money, energy in cult's goals, not their own.
- Suffer health problems, even death, from thinking "I'm healed."
- Slap band aid Bible answers on a democratic society's complex problems.
- Seize political control to promote their beliefs.
- Become paranoid that unbelievers are persecuting them.
- Often disrespect other religions and avenues of spirituality.
- Develop habits of manipulating people and scriptures.
- Break relationships that hinder commitment to the group.
- Unwittingly or deliberately spread propaganda.
- Lose educational, financial, and relationship opportunities.
- Retards their own personal growth
Edited by penworksLink to comment
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GarthP2000
A list of things that _you_ say meet the 'cult' criteria. (Which may or may not.) One thing I've noticed: Speaking of critical thinking, How does repeating what you were taught in that list about 'cults' = critical thinking? ... Believe it or not, that is what I'm endeavoring to do myself. ... Critical Thinking. Which _includes_ critical thinking re: what a lot of people claim about 'cults'. ... Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?
Anywho, just somethings to think about.
Peace. ... Really, this time. ... (I have _got_ to learn self-discipline. :blush: )
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GarthP2000
My last post on this issue is what Raf said with this jewel:
"A cult is a religion that means it."
:dance:/> I'm _definitely_ saving that puppy. _It clearly, and honestly, shows what a 'cult' is, in one short sentence._
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Bolshevik
Garth,
Do me a favor. Rewrite Penworks' post. And Rafs'.
Tell me their meanings.
(emphasis on the "s")
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waysider
I personally don't like equating cults with religious beliefs. There are plenty of cults, past and present, that have nothing to do with religious beliefs. Think about how any hardcore biker "club" operates to interpret my meaning.
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Bolshevik
Yes. cult, family, gang. The line between selfishness and selflessness. It's somewhere there?
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GarthP2000
... And this continues to go 'round and 'round. (((sigh))) ... You have your point of view, and I have mine. So how about we let it go at that?
Peace?
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