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According to Genesis 1-3, God creates a paradise and many different kinds of awesome life and everything is perfect. What a great God He is. Then everything is corrupted because of one single act of two humans (one who was deceived and the other who followed suit). All mankind has now become evil and worthy of death and is therefore in need of redemption. Now there are wars, murders, rapes, natural disasters, genocides, dreadful diseases and disorders of mind and body, hatred, lusts, etc. - SO MUCH pain and suffering century after century which God knew would happen because of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Why was such a cruel and severe punishment so necessary? All of this is explained away by saying “a loving God gave Adam and Eve free will,” so everything is their fault – not God’s. I now call that statement into question because God was GOD and so much GREATER than them: - God was incapable of doing evil, but Adam and Eve were created capable of doing evil. - God had foreknowledge of all that would happen if sin entered the world, but Adam and Eve were only told of “their death.” Who was in a greater and more powerful position to have the responsibility of the whole world placed on their shoulders – God or Adam and Eve? Yet God placed it on humans. I used to think this was how highly God thought of the perfect man He created, and they just went and blew it. Now, I’m thinking they were doomed from the beginning to fail.

Gaslighting is abuse. In the name of God or Truth, it is abject, reprehensible, wicked abuse. It is born of a spiritual poverty by those who beleeeve the spiritually impoverished.

Hi Greasespotters, The International Cultic Studies Association (I'm affiliated with them) sent this announcement today about a new series beginning March 28, 2024. New Docuseries "Cult Justice" Premiers on Hulu, March 28, 2024 (networkforgood.com) Cheers! Charlene Edge, author of Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. https://charleneedge.com

What I found in TWI is that so much was governed by unspoken rules so that people had to know these unspoken rules or face consequences. The politics side of that is one of those scenarios. You have little lemmings pulling up to little voting boxes and all pulling the same levers because that’s what good lemmings do. There was no diversity of opinion or thought. This is the biggest travesty - environments for producing Stepford robots with no propensity for freedom of thought or opinion. That describes the Ways vision of Christianity. Not a worldwide body of Christ composed of members in particular with different ideas and talents, but rather a uniform stamped copy of the perfect “believer” not Christian because that’s a bad word. They all vote the same way, hold the same opinions and it is all masked under what they call being “likeminded”. It is a mental hold on people starting with “the class” and driving towards “likemindedness” And all of it is unspoken from stages to avoid the threat of paying taxes on earnings.

In the FAQs section of its website, it clearly states this is the only bible endorsed by Trump and Greenwood... The website says: "Easy-to-read, large print, and slim design, this bible invites you to explore God’s Word anywhere, any time. This bible has been designed so that it delivers an easy reading experience in the trusted King James Version translation. I'm wondering what they've done to make this "an easy reading experience" - especially as they're using "the King James Version" (more properly, the Authorised Version). Have they removed all the words having more than five letters, or two syllables? AV is far from an easy read. Large print? And slim? Even if it's just NT, there has to be a whole lot missing, perhaps the parts about ... [I deleted that, as this is supposed to be a non-political thread]. Are there pictures in it, too? (Maybe featuring YKW as Jesus?) Churches need strong, principled, leaders who preach the gospel and are not afraid to call out political leaders. Not those who pervert the gospel to their own political ends. Politics needs strong, principled, leaders who listen to the wishes of the populace and are not afraid to call out liars. Not those who pervert the gospel to their own political ends.

In twi, things like that went on because vpw wanted it (as long as he was in charge), since he'd set up twi to have the Head Cheese wield autocratic power without checks or balances. (The same, obviously, applies to his successors, who also enjoy power limited only by the now-pitiful reach of twi.) So, vpw wanted it. The question then becomes....why did vpw want it? vpw was all about power- the wielding of power, and the appearance of prestige and influence. (It's why he got his doctorate at a degree mill and then INSISTED on being called "Doctor." I'm three times the fake doctor he was, and you don't see me insisting on "doctor.") So, some of it was to try to make twi seem influential, which made vpw seem influential. Another part of it was something different. Other than vpw's abilities to con people, he was actually pretty stupid. He always cut corners on his education, and never learned if he could plagiarize instead, and tried not to bother with anything else. When it came to other types of con, vpw fell for them. If you had a fake supernatural con, vpw would swallow it and teach the Advanced Class it was real and NOT a sleight-of-hand trick. (I believe there's real stuff, but it's a lot rarer than the cons, and conflating the two is wrong no matter what.) One of vpw's sources for conning was the John Birch Society, a bunch of tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. He had a hotline to all their pet weird ideas. He would listen to them, then announce all of their stuff and pretend he was getting Divine Revelation about all of it. Rock and roll being of the devil? Yeah, the JBS and all their cronies. So, if the JBS endorsed candidates, vpw went along and endorsed them also. Stupid of him? Yes. It makes about as much sense as a news-anchor reading ANYTHING off the teleprompter, even if it made no sense or was inappropriate. But the same thing in the sense that it was mindless parroting of something from someone else. twi was actually pretty effective at teaching all sorts of people to do mindless parroting of all sorts of things. Society has LOTS of people who do that, but twi made a policy of it, and we're here discussing them, of course.

After leaving twi, it was necessary to unlearn the lies we were taught in order to become healthier. I think it is true for leaving Christianity as well - it happens when one sees the problems with what the Bible teaches. Is it only a matter of how one looks at things? The following is from the beginning of the video above about the slave mentality of Christianity. It shows a different way of seeing God than what I’ve believed for so long. INDIVIDUAL ASPECT - Fear of Death: God offers a bargain system, not a free gift but a trade in order to save us from eternal death (or hell) which He decided was the apt penalty for all of us because of Adam's sin. Our end of the bargain is to make Jesus Christ our lord and master. PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECT (6:15 in the video) - 5 LINEAR CHARACTERISTICS OF SLAVE MENTALITY (lowering oneself to bring about the desires/needs of someone greater at a great expense to oneself) i. Obedience: based on being told the Master/God knows what is right; disobedience = personal harm ii. Submissiveness: lowering oneself; believing we're worthless - we who are “wretched” according to our Master/God are “saved” so we can glorify how great our Master/God is iii. Dependence: relying on our Master's/God's authority to supply our personal needs, validation, direction or sustenance which reinforces our worthlessness, wretchedness and incompetence to live our lives without Him iv. Fatalism: The Master's/God’s way is the only way; any other way is bad, therefore we resign ourselves to submission and dependence on the Master/God v. Fear of autonomy: fear of freedom, personal responsibility or unknown outcomes (e.g., Israelites wanting to return to slavery in Egypt rather than face the reality of their hardships in the wilderness) A A believing Christian will obviously not see things this way, but for one who is beginning to doubt the truth of the Bible, the above becomes eye-opening.

“….all the social advantages there are in being in a cult.” What could ever be said to someone who beleeeves this? It is daunting to even imagine the level of delusion required, yet, I see it and read about it every day. Very, very sad.

The error of four crucified is not explained by fundamentalism. It's surprising that this actual error was invented by a man as educated as Bullinger. That he would point to an 18th century cemetery in France as supporting evidence is even more surprising for such a man, until you find out he was a fervent flat earther. Then, it's, "Ohhhhhh..." It's surprising that a scholar as proficient in languages as Bullinger would fail so profoundly to understand how translation works and why word for word literal translations of idiomatic expressions like ἐντεῦθεν καὶ ἐντεῦθεν are ineffectual. The word "one" wasn't added in the way it is suggested. It is not a corrupt interpolation motivated by some nefarious agenda. Translators add words sometimes so an expression in the source language will make sense in the target language. This is not a radical idea. That Bullinger pretended not to understand ἐντεῦθεν is an adverb modifying the verb crucified and answering the question "Where?" is beyond astonishing. It does not modify "two." That Bullinger defecates on all that he should know about Greek and English is suspect. Who now has the nefarious agenda? Why would he invent such deception? Four crucified is so blatantly inaccurate and irresponsible that, for me, it calls into question everything Bullinger wrote. I'm not saying Bullinger was wrong about everything, just that everything he wrote deserves scrutiny.

Here is another example of victor contradicting himself. There are hundreds of examples of this kind of error laced throughly throughout "his writings" and recorded sermons. Either he was a liar or just stupid, or both. Either way, he hoped no one would notice or question the dead rabbits pulled from his hat. If one digs beneath the glowing, seductive, superficial word salad of his "teachings," one can find out. Now, this effort will require a sharp and sturdy tool to penetrate the thick, petrified crust of bullshonta. An infant's fingernail should suffice. I want to know what the text says. I have no doctrinal agenda. (For a doctrinal perspective, go to WordWolf's excellent discussion of Genesis 1 he started in the Doctrinal forum.) As far as I can tell, there is no adverb then in Genesis 1:2. There is no textual evidence supporting victor's bloody rabbit. None. NONE. To say there should be is to tip one's hand to using an eisegetical process of "private interpretation" - a method victor CONSTANTLY railed against! To your point, like the serpent, victor added words to the text ALL THE TIME. As you know, he also deleted words, even entire paragraphs - "Cross it out!" Indeed, there are inauthentic, interpolated words and verses that made it into the Bible, but only those that didn't fit victor's glove were crossed out. And he crossed out added words because he didn't understand how translations work, as in John 19:18. victor also frequently changed the meaning of words. Partly because he didn't understand how language works and partly as a means to force fit his voodoo into his bloody glove. Further into Genesis at chapter 2 verse 2, he changes the meaning of the Hebrew verb shabbath. He says it means SIT, not REST, and not that it should mean SIT, but that it actually means SIT, because God doesn't need to REST. A complete invention! Total bullshonta! A blatant lie from the mouth of a liar! Shabbath means to cease, to desist, to rest (from labor), to stop working. Period. It never, ever, EVER means to sit.

Something I learned after leaving TWI is that fundamentalists who cling to the non-negotiable notion that the gospels should not contradict each other (which comes from the belief in inerrancy) will come up with ludicrous interpretations like four crucified. They disregard the fact that each gospel stands on its own. And in case you don't know, each gospel was written loooong after the events it describes. And the gospels were written long after Paul wrote his letters, too. Sometimes I wonder how people woud view the N.T. if the order of the books were put in order of when they were written. That would result in the gospels coming AFTER Paul's epistles. If you're super interested in this topic, check out Fundamentalism by James Barr. And excellent books on the history of the N.T. texts are available by Bart Ehrman. They are easy to read, too!

Whenever vpw visited a place, they assigned people to buy his creature comforts out of pocket (like bottles of Drambuie as one poster reported- their first experience buying alcohol.) On top of everything else, they took up collections of nice, untraceable cash which was handed over to vpw in a bag. I'm sure he was happy not to report that to the IRS. He also made no secret that he could-and did- go to the twi treasurer whenever he felt like he needed some cash, and got it. ALSO, a LOT of things owned by twi were reserved for his SOLE use, and he called them "MY STUFF." If there is a "special hell" for child molesters and people who talk in the theater, I hope vpw gets imprisoned in its worst part.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/wt8jz3TFOc Recent statistics are showing around 50% of returning Mormon missionaries are leaving the church. It seems the most devout adherents to the rules are among the ones leaving first. Those who go through motions for political gain are advancing in positions. What a testament to the long-term adverse effects of using another individual to expand your organization via free labor and outreach programs. Did I recognize these patterns in how TWI uses their “Wow” TM Ambassadors? Or “Way Ambassadors”? Or Way Corps pressured to “get a class together”? I did these programs. They isolated me from family and friends and re-enforced the cult values over individual goals. They lead to ever increasing commitment to an organization and protection of everyone and everything they represent regardless of how evil the impact is. There is long-term isolation from support groups and replacing them with more devout and controlling support groups. There is the grooming for higher programs always. In those programs there is the climbing over each other to obtain position and status. The ultimate end of this is the BOD who answer to nobody and are treated like gods. Don’t let your life be used for another’s political aspirations and control. Regardless of what group it is, what pitch they have, the results will always contain consequences.

What a great video! Thanks RighteousRider. Perhaps the greatest mistake man can make is to think otherwise.

With many of the forums I follow and Reddit channels those leaving cults have a high percentage that also depart from Christianity. You are among those. I do not dispute that the rules of GSC are open and I personally feel as a mod you are very accommodating to conversation even outside the rules boundaries. Many who are working through cult issues have fragility in their faith and some are going through various stages of what they term “shelf breaking”. I am also trying to be a little less direct and confrontational due to these elements. At times I do better than other times. We chase each other out of here at times by being unfiltered. Thanks for your efforts to keep this place alive and going. You deserve extra recognition for that.

There used to be a front page and so on. The posted reason this place exists was "to tell the other side of the story." That is, when twi (and ext-twi) kept seeking to hide and conceal information, it was the purpose here to reveal that information. Has it worked? It worked so well that twi INSISTED on the GSC posting a letter they wrote! When they tried to conceal their behavior when Mrs W was moved from her home off-grounds to retire elsewhere, the news broke here immediately- and no matter what anyone says, ex-twi people checked here for breaking news- as did people CURRENTLY in twi because twi NEVER leveled with them- and got accusatory at questions. So, they logged in here and read what twi wanted kept concealed. In order to do damage control, twi insisted on a response posted here- so all the current twi and ex-twi could read it. When JAL kept trying to advertise whatever ex-twi church he was in that week, he did so here. Oh, he never did it directly, he insisted on doing it in a sneaky way. He had a ces person post his letters to everyone (hi, Jeff!) who tended to get a bit coy about whether or not he was told to post it here. (Jeff also went around all sorts of Christian messageboards, posting links to ces/stfi, and saying, in effect, "Gee, I just found these links to a Christian website, and I don't know what to make of them. What do you guys think?" In one case, he crossed paths with me, and I immediately posted a reply to his thread that made it obvious it was both an advertisement and dishonest.) Later he had people post letters here and pretended he had no plans for them to be posted here, and hinted at both here and his letters ending up here somehow. It's really hard for me to respect anyone who makes it standard policy to be so completely dishonest while claiming to understand the Bible and teach it to people. vpw succeeded largely because we didn't know he was dishonest and a fraud. So, as the clearinghouse for "the other side of the story" for both twi and ex-twi, the GSC, is, at least in theory, neither pro- or con- religious... unless one counts being con-twi. The GSC serves as "equal time" to all the time twi spends HIDING and refusing to level with its people. I'm sorry to say I've done more than my share in flamewars here- even though they were exclusively anti-vpw and anti-twi. When vpw adherents showed up, determined that vpw was some great one and we all forgot he was, I've let them have it. (To a degree, I've done the same with the ex-twi groups.) I hope too many innocent people didn't get caught in the middle, and the messages weren't lost about how dangerous it is to trust twi, vpw, and ex-twi splinter groups in general.

I’ve tried to find a mission statement or statement of purpose for the cafe. Though I couldn’t find one, it seems self evident, and seems to be neither religious nor anti-religious. It seems all voices are welcome. Even designated sub forums exist to ensure space for varying voices to be heard. (Even Mike and his bloody gloves are welcome here to make murder legal in California!) I never knew how hateful and destructive humans could be, including so-called Christians, until I unwittingly married into a family controlled by an OG Corps “grad.” This website has helped me immensely to sort out the pathology of the cult The Way International, Inc. I am grateful for all the atheists and all the Christians who are free to post here. I have learned much from both.

“I’ll tell you what to think.” - L. Craig Martindale

“…question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.” This is not difficult to imagine at all. To presume this isn’t already going on is, well, presumptuous and a failure of imagination. And we already have multi-party elections.

https://ctcoftexas.com/about/

https://ctcoftexas.com/about/

vpw always inflated the importance of any public figure- in order to claim twi was significant because it contained vip's. So, ONE NFL player and vpw went crazy. One COACH for tennis and even lcm dropped her name. So, small wonder vpw wanted in when someone ostensibly IN twi was running for public office. No, it did not go well for or with H@yes G@h@g@n of Maine. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/22444-hayes-gahagan/#comment-527243

TWI made an attempt to inject its influence into a political campaign in Maine in the late 1970s or early 1980s. It didn't go well.

I listened to the whole video and have different thoughts on it. He does a very good job with scripture to teach how God delights in all people and I think if this was all one needed to know and believe, one could feel safe and secure in God. But then there are the many teachings about people needing to be saved before the rapture (which supposedly will happen soon because of the upcoming solar eclipse) or needing to either survive the tribulation or be martyred in ordered to be saved. There are also the times when you pray for someone who is suffering and who only gets worse while you're trusting God to help them. In other words, there are reasons to stop believing in this God who does not come across as so loving after all. I'm wondering what your purpose was for your post and sharing the video.

All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Well also, HOW WONDEFUL IN MANY MANY WAYS!!!!!!!!!!! VERY BEST TO YOU AND YOURS UNTIL... WE ALL MEET AGAIN!!

Thanks all! I really appreciate the kind words.

Thank you OldSkool for all your contributions here. Many blessings to you and may the Lord continue to shine His face upon you.

Nobody thinks you're crazy - at least not any crazier than some of us here have been! It's great when we all get back to some sort of "normality." Very best wishes for your future. You will be missed here. Do feel free to look in and see us occasionally.

Thank you OldSkool for the powerful testimony of Jesus' presence (as opposed to absence) in your life.

Gaslighting is among the most devastating darts in the thief’s quiver. Manipulation by gaslighting steals, kills and destroys sanity. (I shudder to consider the abject wickedness you endured… to blame a father’s “believing” for the physical condition with which his precious child is born… no words, only vomit…) The insanity persists only until that moment of clarity, that awakening, which you have had. I don’t think you are crazy at all. I am grateful for all the insight and facts you have recorded here. And for the laughs. Thank you, OldSkool.

Congratulations to you and your family. That’s awesome news. Godspeed brother and drop me a note from time to time. Thanks for your testimony about departing from false doctrine and making Jesus Lord again. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Body

I don't think you're crazy. Then again, I don't think it's a problem if SOMEBODY thinks you are, only if EVERYONE thinks you are. If your journey moves you on from here on out, well, farewell until we meet again... maybe that will be soon, who knows?

God speed and God continue to bless you!

Trying to refrain from replying until I have time, but thank you cman for posting that wikipedia link, which neatly sums up most of the "evidence" mythicists need to overcome to be taken seriously. Some of that is easy. Some of it, not so much. The expert consensus is the easiest argument to overcome because in this field, the expert consensus is ludicrously biased in favor of tradition. When I hear about the consensus of experts, I tend to expect overwhelming evidence in favor of that consensus, not overwhelming excuses about why we shouldn't expect to find evidence even though, no, seriously, we should. The notion that we would have to reject other historical figures if we held Jesus to a more rigorous standard is also incorrect. I would submit that such claims would be refuted by asking for an example, one example, of a historical figure whose existence is taken for granted but for whom LESS evidence exists than for Jesus. You won't find one. What you'll find instead is a Jesus that has more in common with Robin Hood and King Arthur than with Nathan Hale and Alexander Hamilton. Amyway more later

Old Ones will enjoy this as well..

Yes it fits right in with Bible accounts like the twelve meeting the seventy where they said “we own the trademark on everything you’re doing” and called them “swagger jackers”.

On the nostalgia bias front I see that the BODolts have paid money to patent the term “Word Over the World”. Tm. Your ABS at work. Now if they could only patent the term “world peace” then they could collect a lot of money at every Miss America contest. All u other WOWs are cheap imitators lol.

So, vpw did teach others. So, if the first part of the alleged 1942 Promise was correct, then it was completed, like a contract, with both parties delivering what they were supposed to. But, did vpw teach "God's Word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century"? No. First, nearly 100% of everything he taught has been traced to other Christian writers or teachers whom he plagiarized. So, each of his teachings was on something as someone knew in the 20th century already. Was that a made-up promise, or was it the promise of a being so uninformed it didn't know people were already teaching the Bible and writing about it? Or was it a lying spirit that promised this? The possibilities vpw was listening to a lying spirit or a stupid god are even worse than vpw just lying and plagiarizing. Second, what was "God's Word as it was known in the 1st century"? Nothing like twi! People knew God's Word by experience and in power. The written texts studied ad nauseum in twi were largely UNKNOWN in the 1st century. People read the Torah, taught, prayed, healed, and saw miracles. The selling points of Christianity were results, not clever men at pulpits teaching a new Greek word or making a bad joke. Christians were decentralized, Christians had no head honcho on the Earth, Christians had no codified "Statements of Belief." Christians weren't tithing. Christians weren't buying books or paying money for classes. In short, the 1st century Christians did NOT resemble vpw's claims or twi in any way other than vpw CLAIMING they were the same. Talk is cheap, and the reality was VERY different. If you want to see something of the 1st century in vpw's work, review the "ministry" of Simon the sorcerer.

"God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. " In case someone particularly nostalgic- who doesn't know any better- has just arrived, read that, and said aloud "Oh, yeah? Prove it!", I'm going to reply. First of all, the Burden of Proof is on the person who insists on the existence of something, the one who says "this is true." In this case, that means the burden of proof is on the one who claims that the alleged 1942 promise was true. So, they are asking the wrong question to begin with. However, I'm not done. In many cases, where some claim has been made, we can look things over and confirm or dismiss them. Let's look at the claim. vpw claimed that God Almighty spoke to vpw himself and said that He (God) would teach him (vpw) God's Word as it hadn't been known since the First Century if he (vpw) would teach it (God's Word) to others. Further, vpw insisted that he demanded God prove this by making it snow. A moment later, he was in a complete snowstorm and could see nothing out the window. First of all, the claim in taped pfal was that vpw had dedicated his life to God's Word. Nobody heard this 1942 Promise until much further into twi. Second of all, his own WIFE heard nothing about this in 1942. She wrote that he first told this to the early corps- so the first words out of his mouth that day to here weren't "Honey, something amazing happened today and I have to tell you about it..." (I've heard claims that Mrs W was wrong and people heard of it in the mid-1960s. Even if true, it doesn't change him saying NOTHING to his wife when is ALLEGEDLY happened. Third of all, vpw's claim CHANGED. When he first made the claim, the sky filled with snow was "BLACK" with snow. Later, he claimed he was in a white-out (my phrasing), where the sky was all white. If the man had a genuine experience with God, he would remember if the sky suddenly turned all-WHITE or all-BLACK, because even the legally blind can tell the difference between an all-white and an all-black sky. However, if vpw was making this up, and later heard that an all-snow sky is all white, he would change his story. If he was repeating a miraculous occurrence, he would have added comments. "I know the sky SHOULD have looked all white, but there it was- all BLACK outside my window in the middle of the day..." This change reflected someone trying to convince people of a story he was making up and fine-tuning as he heard objections. Fourth, all weather reports of the day show no snow anywhere in the state. He never claimed it was a VISION of snow, but real snow. However, let us continue AS IF he claimed it was a VISION of snow. Then the rest of his claims should be examined for all their faults.

Happy New Year spotters! I am bumping this thread for all those who may still be stuck in TWI nostalgia bias. Perhaps you like me have seen a recent depiction of the “Jesus Revolution” with all of the social happenings in the 60s and 70s that preceded the Way Ministry and other groups like Calvary Chapel and all of the tales about the groovy Christians of Rye NY or the Life magazine articles or the House of Acts in SF California. Seeing all of that I was reminded of the motivation I had in my youth to seek out grassroots truth in the form of spiritual wisdom from the Bible and Christian fellowship. As I pursued that as a primary goal in life, got married, had kids, and worked out how to live as a Christian man father and husband I ran into direct conflict with the cult I was in, The Way International, and what the Bible taught about Christian life, marriage, family, careers, debt, and many other major categories of life where they were stepping beyond scriptural boundaries and into areas of life in the nunya category. Nunya d@mn bidness. I also witnessed several leadership couples where the Way broke up their marriage, convinced them they had major spiritual problems and forced them back into their training program again. And I witnessed the Way performing libelous acts talking about these people to their congregations and acting well beyond any authority reasonable for a church group. I witnessed any attempt to restore equal balance met by excommunication. So the times I could be swayed by nostalgia and the idea of a large church with many friends (they were fake) I recollect the doctrinal and practical manipulation of these people and others who have published their accounts, and I thank God on my knees that I am no longer subservient to little Napoleons and their Machiavellian imaginations and their evil acts against those in their own house. I thank God for freedom, like the freedom that the concept of the United States of America can bring when people aren’t being political moral midgets, like the freedom that emancipation can bring and has brought to minorities, like the freedom to worship God without any sense of lack of worth that another man or woman tries to introduce. There is a time for nostalgia. I can break out an old vinyl album I replaced and go back to my roots, to a simpler time filled with faith without manipulation, to a time of infinite possibility. But I have zero nostalgia of being under the authority of moral midgets and performing rote roles of service to magnify others and their egos. I will not sacrifice my future and family’s future to run a church for a group too cheap to build one in my house and try and hype a new lie which is the same old lie. God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. Freedom > Nostalgia

Not everybody's cup of tea, for sure. I'm blown away by her songwriting skills. She's like a female counterpart to John Prine. Speaking of which, THIS may have some loosely related relevance to the tone of this thread.

My life, it's only a season A passing September that no one will recall. HERE

When people have to face an uncomfortable situation they create some kind of spiritual outcome to deal with their uneasy feelings. Prior to the 1990’s, when a pet died they were buried and that was the end of it. Then, to make grieving “pet parents” feel better, the Rainbow Bridge concept was introduced. Now, not only will grieving “pet parents” see their dead relatives in the future, but they will also be reunited with their deceased dogs, cats, turtles, birds, rabbits, worms, or any pet they owned who died. I can see how the concept of being reunited with dead ones came to be. Overtime, the grief of being away from deceased family became too much to bear. And the belief of being reunited with one’s loving relatives was born. Of course, for some reason, there were caveats thrown in. If Christian, and depending on which religion you followed, some family members might not meet you in the air. If RC, hope and pray your did not die with a mortal sin on your soul, because you will suffer life eternal with the devil. If you were of the belief one had to confess Roman 10:9&10, and your brother Andy didn’t confess, you can forget seeing him again. If your family worships Islam, the best you can get is 27 Virgins wating for you. I am sure there are religions you and I have never heard, who have their own rules for seeing lost loved ones. The hereafter world is sure getting more and more complicated and crowded.

I recall VPW saying something to the affect that the bible was not written for unbelievers, agnostics, or god rejectors. Assuming no one is born with a knowledge of god, then somewhere during their development, they decided to believe in a god or gods. I was in that boat myself. Being born into a Catholic family, religion was crammed down my throat from a very young age. I hated all the rules of having to eat this, pray in a certain position, recognize certain days, confess my sins to a man behind a screen, blah, blah, blah. So I decided to reject it but still held the belief there was a god. Sometime later, as I was eating lunch in a resturant, a guy sat next to me and began to tell me about a god that was completely different than the Catholic god. This random meeting began a 20 sum year association with TWI. At first TWI filled me with peace and tranquility, but then realized they too had crazy rules that must be obeyed. And not adhering to them would force god to remove his hedge of protection from me. So I checked other religions out, but found they all had some hook, that when swallowed, forced me to recognize some aspect of god that made no sense. This got me to reason that if each religion had completely different requirements to satisfy god, which one was right? Then I threw in different faiths, which didn’t even worship the same god, and scratched my head in confusion. Then I came to the conclusion that none had any idea of what they were talking about, as there are thousands of different Christian religions alone, not including all the other faiths. Which one worships the one true god? Impossible to determine. So my logical conclusion was there is no god. I had attempted to reason through mounds of different dogmas to find god, but all it all brought was confusion. Now my mind is cleared. I do not have to choose one god over the other. Peace and tranquility.

I refuse to believe you are being purposefully obtuse. . . and I know you are intelligent. . . so, I am going to assume I have poor communication skills. But, if you don't see the correlation between VP and the detailed description of a false teacher in scripture . . . I got nothing. That experience with TWI affirms scripture's words and the validity of warning to the church that there are men who rise up . . . come out from among it. . . and lead people astray. If it was merely an exercise in communal living with a "religious" twist. . . . than no harm . . . no foul. Personally, I believe it is far more sinister and dark than simply that. . . evil in fact. TWI is evil . . .now run by two women who lust for each other and hide it pretending to be something else in order to continue living a lavish lifestyle and fleece the flock. . . I believe VPW was an evil man who used people just like the scriptures describe and is exactly who Jesus, Peter, John, Jude, and Paul warned us about. I believed he preyed upon the weak and innocent. . .. I believe his eyes were full of adultery, lust, he was drunken, perverse, proud, irreverent, selfish, and destructive. I believe he lead people away from Jesus Christ. Actually, I believe he lead people to oppose Jesus Christ and into a false sense of salvation. I don't know what cult you were in that just had a "religious twist". . . . I was in the one that stood in defiant opposition to all things Godly, good and holy. Clear enough? I don't really know how I, or scripture, could make it any clearer. Scripture gives us a detailed warning about people just like VP, who do the exact same things VP did. The time we spent in TWI bear these things out. You have the advantage of first-hand knowledge with a false teacher which affirm those words. And just to add: These accusations against Paul. . . . happened in the 1st century . . . same ones. . .. he didn't have a direct relation to Jesus. . . they said he learned from the 12 in Jerusalem . . . although it was 3 years before he consulted them. 2 Corinthians and Galatians are a defense of his Apostleship against these same charges. You can read what he said and how he defended himself. It is really interesting. He didn't attack them personally, although they got ugly with him. . .. he went after their teaching. They were putting people in bondage again. They were already observing feasts and being circumcised. . . . they were headed to full observance of the law . . . . which Jesus came to free them from. It is all in there.

I am not sure I am understanding the whole premise here. I live with a freakishly talented musician. He has literally taught himself to play any instrument he has ever picked up . . . . starting with the touch-tone phone at the age of 4. One day he sat down and wrote the most beautiful piece of music I have heard in a long time. It took him a few hours to write it, record all the parts, and mix them together for a stunning result. Fascinated, I asked him how he did this . . . He simply said he was inspired. It was still him writing the notes and it was his talent. .. . but, the inspiration for that music came from somewhere. Probably a poor analogy, but we do have some kind of understanding about what it means to be inspired by something. It is not an unheard of concept. It should almost be more clear to those with artistic leaning. Musicians, artists, creative people. Although, inspiration is not limited. Scripture writing, being an inspired act, should not be a confusing idea? One may choose to not believe that declaration of inspiration within these ancient documents, (more than one set of scripture declares this) but the notion that . . . yes, it was Paul's words, doesn't serve to disprove the idea of them being inspired by God. Holy men. . . a specific kind of person . . . spoke their own words. . . in their own style. . . in their own language . . . with their own understanding . . . inspired, or moved by the Holy Spirit. I guess it helps to understand the concept of holiness and how the Holy Spirit moves within the life of a Christian. If that is not something one does understand. . . it is fairly easy to ask a Christian to explain it. . . or even allow the scriptures themselves to enlighten us to the concept. They do that when we are not trying to tell them what they are saying, but let them tell us. I think we missed that in TWI. Another bad analogy. . . Dear Abby can write a piece of advice addressing a particular problem or issue. Does that mean the advice is only relevant to the person to whom it is particularly addressed? Can others accept the advice and use it in their own situation? What Paul wrote to particular church, facing specific issues, can be relevant to churches today. We can take those corrected doctrines and apply them within our own church and life. Especially if we believe the words written by Paul, his own words. . . are inspired by the Holy Spirit. To me, what is more illuminating is that these same issues still arise in churches. The whole concept of written language as a form of communication. . . . it is a very human thing. Christians believe God to be very engaged in the events of human history. That is the whole premise of Christian scripture. Before the advent of television, radio, internet and email. . . . which we as a culture can relate to . . . letter writing was an art form . . . a duty. . . how we related to others important information. Books, not an antiquated or confusing concept. Taking relevant information presented at one time in letter form . . . . concerning a particular subject and putting it together in a book with other information about the same subject matter is not so far fetched. The canon had a purpose and these doctrines and concepts were already understood. The understanding of an Apostle's purpose and calling were known. One doesn't have to accept the premise, but it doesn't mean there wasn't specific guidelines or reasons for what was accepted. The knowledge of false apostles and false letters being circulated is addressed in scripture. Thessalonians speaks to false letters . . . . other scripture addresses false teachers. . . .other scripture. . . . false doctrine. A right and wrong way to understand certain things within the faith. What is so odd about that? This specific collection makes claims about itself. It is great to evaluate its history. . . . but, limiting oneself to a particular method is like using just part of a recipe. At some point, we need to evaluate the text itself for its claims. It addresses the genesis of life, the human condition, and a specific historic figure who made claims relevant to all of mankind. That is what we have . . . no matter who said it. . . wrote it down. . . copied it. . . or put it in book form. The Shakespeare on your shelf may have a few words wrong . . . a few passages tweaked, but the story line we can have some confidence in. . . .

I think I get what you're trying to do here as far as getting people to think through something that may have simply been accepted blindly. I'm not going to offer a lengthy defense as to the authenticity of the Pauline Epistles because frankly, I'll doubt that I'll put forth anything you haven't heard yourself hundreds of times. A cursory study of church history will shed some definite light on these questions. Church history is fairly easy to study. I believe you will find there are others who give testimony as to the authenticity of Paul's writings. Not the least of which is the Apostle Peter who refers to Paul's writings as "scripture". The very fact that the early Christians valued Paul's writings enough to protect them is also testament as to how his writings were regarded. It was Luke who wrote Acts and gave testimony as to conduct of Paul and speaks loudly to his "personal credibility". How? By example to be sure, but it's clearly stated the Apostles respected him and offered him the "right hand of fellowship". Ya gotta drop all the rot in TWI about "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church" which IMO is an assassination on the characters of the other Apostles. You're correct about there being scholars out there who now believe that Ephesians was actually written in the 4th century. My only answer to that is that it's a "Johnny-come-lately" theory. This whole concept of "Man of God for Our Day and Time" is rubbish. Wierwille wanted to be considered that so he could fleece the flock and he claimed Paul was the MOG for his day and time. He wasn't. Paul postulated over and over again that Jesus Christ was the center of Christianity. I say all that to say that there is no evidence to suggest that Paul was the Wierwille of his day and time. He was held in high regard by the established church leadership and the church followers. The early Christian church was not a Way Tree. There were different areas like Asia, Galatia, and Rome, and Antioch and they pretty much stood on their own. They didn't get SNS tapes from Paul or from Jerusalem. If Paul had been a "loose cannon" and a womanizer he would have simply been rejected and run out of town on a rail.

I see it as a sorta forerunner to science and the scientific method. Life was a short and brutal affair when most religions came about. Real knowledge about how the earth worked was very sparse and so superstition immediately filled the void. Your brother got eaten by a lion on his way to work one day, so you, in a desperate attempt to avoid a similar fate, devised some code to help minimize your exposure to that danger. You noticed that when you wore a garland of garlic, or your chartreuse toga, or paid homage to The Lion King, that you DIDN'T get eaten, so you start doing that every time you need to travel near lion country. Pretty soon it becomes mandatory for you and yours to do it all the time. And so it goes. Then you have to devise a regimen to avoid poisonous food, diseases, and dangerous sociopaths. Some of it may even have a trace or two of wisdom in it. Before too long you and your decendants have cooked up a whole plethora of rituals and beliefs to subscribe to. Then it's a matter of which clan has the most power and influence or maybe just writes the most eloquent mantras to have your particular mythologies carried on. That's how I imagine it having happened anyway. Maybe not quite poignant, but I think it makes sense...

Well, why would one use the "aforementioned criteria" to draw a conclusion? That ship has sailed. I am confused? Is VP's standard for inerrancy what we use to evaluate Paul as a con man? We are confronted with a collection of ancient documents. . . the most well preserved of ancient documents BTW. We use certain criteria to evaluate their validity . . . including, but not limited to what they say about themselves. We give them the benefit of doubt. That is not just given to scripture, but we do look to see what all ancient documents say about themselves. We also know a great deal about the practice of letter writing during his time and beyond. These things were not just put in a letters, these guys went around and preached at these churches. These things were known and believed on . . . . . .and by many who knew Jesus. I am missing something here. . . . where does this hypothesis about Paul come from? What is the basis for the possible conclusion? "I would that ye all spake with tongues"? VP said that meant every Christian. . . so, Paul was a con man? VP was an a$.. The same "Rap sheet" we have on Paul which we conclude goes to his credibility is found in the same document which we learn of his conversion. So we accept one and not the other? Setting the supernatural aside. . . . say Paul's rap sheet is true. He had some influence. . . . he spoke. . . people jumped. If his rap sheet is true, we can assume his pedigree is true. . . So, this con man gives up this kind of affluence and authority within his beloved faith. . . to be imprisoned, beaten, nearly stoned, and ultimately martyred because he gained . . . . what? He was a very lousy con man. . . . He could have had a motor coach had he remained a Pharisee. Instead, he was on trial before the Sanhedrin. His head probably ended up on a chopping block. The joke was on him if he was lying. Just to add: Most gnostics adhere to the Pauline epistles to the exclusion of most everything else. Marcion for example. There might be a bigger picture here. The nature of what we were part of in TWI.

Speaking with my pastor... with a real doctorate. I told him I had trouble enjoying reading the Bible, so therefore I read books about the Bible, i.e. Smith Wiggles worth etc.... He investigated me. It was THIS he found so destructive Wierwille argues that the Bible as a whole is not relevant to all people of all times. Every word of Scripture is equally inspired by God, he says, but different books were addressed to different audiences. The Old Testament and the Four Gospels are for the Jews and Gentiles; the rest of the New Testament is for the "Church of God" of "born-again believers." Next, the fear of the "Jesus spirit" and not understanding Jesus. Thus, taking away our conversational fellowship with him. Then, the misleading our focus... Such as we read Romans and we focused on Jesus being the creation and people worshiping the created more than the creator - even though all the verses around it condemned the behaviors going on in TWI. Then, VP had us focus on the GRACE administration - because all his sins could be forgiven as he twisted that up in his favor. So VP, took away the Bible, the savior, and had us focus on GRACE - this ladies and gentlemen - was a false prophet. For to loose intimacy with God always leads to sexual sin. Then, the erroneous teaching to NOT SAY THINGS OUT LOUD or the devil will hear it! The Bible does NOT teach that, as a matter of fact, the POWER of God is unleashed in SPEAKING - from Let there be light to the LOUD voice you hear in Revelations... So, we had our Bible taken, our Jesus minimized, our focus redirected, our speaking the word/prayer power diminished, GRACE to sin exhaled - and we wonder why (for some) it is hard to read the Bible? WE WERE LIED TO STOLEN FROM DECEIVED