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The man didn't understand English and that's clear throughout PFAL. If he doesn't understand his native language and its grammar, how the heck can he be trusted when he purports to expound on some other language? Especially one so very old, with nuances that were there originally and which no doubt changed as centuries wore on.

I think it will save everyone some time and energy- including you, Bol- if we all (including you) accept that there is NO answer you will find acceptable as to what Waydale was and why it existed. Period. Lots of other people have come forth, explaining how Waydale or the GSC benefited them personally, and you don't see how any of them benefited. That's fine- their benefits are independent of your ability to perceive them. You were wronged by some idiots- and if other people doubted that, their doubts would not erase the wrongs. So, that's a conversational impasse, and will remain so because there's no "argument" that will change your mind, so there's no point in circling the same ideas. I'm not personally familiar with the parties involved in the lawsuit, but I'd be slow to accuse anyone of "whoring his wife for money" even if it were true (which, in this case, it isn't and is a gross misstatement of what happened.) I get that you're fine with insulting whoever and it doesn't matter to you, especially if it relates to Waydale. But you might put that past you by now. So far, you're the only person who ever came forth complaining of Waydale or the GSC that way. That suggests the problem wasn't with Waydale. Even if it had been, the site has been closed for more than 20 years. The most I've ever talked about it was in your threads recently. My suggestion is to find a way to let it go. harboring resentments for decades is not healthy.

Do you mean "criminal case" rather than having used "federal case?" Hence the potential catastrophe of a class action civil suit to twi. In such a situation a $65 million treasury wouldn't go very far. Rosie knew that. She (and whoever with her) decided to survive and make twi survive by settling with the Allens. Note today's news that a jury awarded a certain broadcaster's Connecticut victims (of his harassment) nearly a BILLION dollars. Until one or more follower decides to step up and lead. And we have known since well before the emergence of the interwebs, sunlight is the BEST disinfectant. Waydale wasn't responsible for your emotional pain. Life is inherently unfair. Factors enter into situations beyond what anyone can control. You probably know that on an intellectual level, even though your emotions may be holding you to a different perspective and framework for understanding and coping with your experience. NOBODY instigating the shining of sunlight on the evil actions of Loy or the evil subculture enabling him necessarily had ANY idea of possible collateral damage inflicted on innocent bystanders. Stephen Covey, the late author of 7 Habits of Highly EFFECTIVE People wrote, “But I kept thinking about it. I really went inside myself and began to ask, ‘Do I have the power to choose my response?’ “When I finally realized that I do have that power, when I swallowed that bitter pill and realized that I had chosen to be miserable, I also realized that I could choose not to be miserable. “At that moment I stood up. I felt as though I was being let out of San Quentin. I wanted to yell to the whole world, ‘I am free! I am let out of prison! No longer am I going to be controlled by the treatment of some person.’” *** It’s not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us. Of course, things can hurt us physically or economically and can cause sorrow. But our character, our basic identity, does not have to be hurt at all. In fact, our most difficult experiences become the crucibles that forge our character and develop the internal powers, the freedom to handle difficult circumstances in the future and to inspire others to do so as well. Covey, Stephen R.. The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change (pp. 80-81). Rosetta Books. Kindle Edition. My divorce and custody disputes, in and about which I was easily able to find information clearly demonstrating that what happened to me was grossly unfair and hurtful, became crucibles for me. I couldn't control the situations and too many of the outcomes. Yet, as unjust as those events were, and as emotionally difficult as they were for me, I have emerged (nearly 30 years after my divorce) much more emotionally mature and able to handle difficult situations and emotions than I ever was. And like you, Bolshevik, the hurt I endured was outside my control and directly traceable to the teachings and culture of wierwilleism. Like me, it may take you a long time to emerge from the crucible, but you can and you will.

Yup! wierwille became the lens through which I viewed Christ…and when I was in TWI, how that worked in practice was exploring what the Bible says about Christ…only it wasn’t really exploring what the Bible says about Christ. Rather it was reading, listening, and watching what wierwille said... about Christ? Nope! I was trained to read, listen, and watch what wierwille said about “The Word” because – wierwille said - “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ.” In effect wierwille’s words take the place of the Bible – any Bible – any version, translation, ancient existing manuscripts, even lone verses scribbled on a Denny's napkin - anything - you name it! Actually, wierwille’s words take the place of the absent Bible…shame on you wierwille-fans. Do you know what's one of fundamentalist's favorite tricks ? To challenge you by asking "chapter and verse" . why is that tricky? because it's a handy way to prooftext - you ignore context and dismiss thoughtfulness....but true confessions - it comes in handy as a countermeasure when wierwille-fans start spouting off these claims of what God or Christ can and cannot do. Chapter and verse please. ~ ~ ~ ~ Have you ever played the telephone game? In other cultures, it may be called Chinese whispers. Chinese whispers (some Commonwealth English) or telephone (American English and Canadian English) is an internationally popular children's game. It is also called transmission chain experiments in the context of cultural evolution research and is primarily used to identify the type of information that is more easily passed on from one person to another… …Players form a line or circle, and the first player comes up with a message and whispers it to the ear of the second person in the line. The second player repeats the message to the third player, and so on. When the last player is reached, they announce the message they heard to the entire group. The first person then compares the original message with the final version. Although the objective is to pass around the message without it becoming garbled along the way, part of the enjoyment is that, regardless, this usually ends up happening. Errors typically accumulate in the retellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly from that of the first player, usually with amusing or humorous effect. Reasons for changes include anxiousness or impatience, erroneous corrections, and the difficult-to-understand mechanism of whispering. From: Wikipedia: Chinese whispers ~ ~ ~ ~ Thinking of how I got an erroneous retelling of the gospel of Jesus Christ – wierwille had my ear - and unbeknownst to me he was a glory-hound incompetent plagiarist – so, I believed he was getting all this stuff from God and passing it on to me. Pseudo-Christian cult-leaders play a mean game of telephone. And the darndest thing in this telephone game – the cult-leader always calls collect. Wah Wah…I’m here all week folks.

That's the paradox... why God and Jesus protects and saves in some cases, heals in some cases, and in other cases, does not? I think there's so much we don't know but I believe some day we will! I think some of the questions may be answered in Hebrews 11 -- Douay-Rheims Bible, Hebrews Chapter 11 (drbo.org) I noticed too that in Hebrews 11 Christ is referred to as being 'invisible'. Ah ha, we found another synonym for 'absent'.

Ever notice how much wierwille was fascinated with devil spirits…perhaps an unhealthy fascination… …and wierwille always seemed to talk up how much power and influence the devil has - almost as if he has way more power and influence than God must be something wrong with his scale of values.

Even the bully LCM said, "You stay hurt [emotionally] as long as you choose to." And that was a reflection made post-fog years. After he had been bullied badly by Geer. Of course, that's so easy to say. When what's happened has ripped your life away from you. When a spouse has walked out, a child has died, or whatever. When, as an immature teenager, as Bolshevik was, you don't have the ability to walk away from it, to leave it behind, to see other people's problems as just that - their problems. Not yours. I wonder how long it took LCM to get over being slung out from his Presidency and from TWI. How hurt he was, how many regrets he had. I wonder if he suffered as much as some posters here have suffered. And whether he learned any lessons. (From BecomingMe's posts, it seems not.) But that's a whole nother story. It's a fine balancing line - the one between independence, and interdependence.

Acts 9 KJV And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. 3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: -------------------------------------------------- I still get surprised when I run into people who don't get why Saul addressed Jesus that way, and what he meant by that. It's very simple. Really. Check a dictionary for a refresher on what "lord" means. Saul was traveling, and suddenly he saw a bright light hit him from the sky, and a voice accompanied it. "Saul, why do you persecute me?" Saul got up from the ground, and addressed the voice and light that came from the sky. "Who are you, lord?" Was Saul addressing him as God? Hardly- he had no idea whom he was addressing- otherwise he wouldn't open with "WHO ARE YOU?" He was addressing this complete stranger with respect. Our modern addresses might have said, "Who are you, Sir?" Saul addressed this being with deference and respect. Why? The man was knocked off his feet and landed on his @$$ by a being who showed up as a bright light and a voice from heaven. (I'd be shocked if the voice wasn't pretty loud, too.) Saul wasn't addressing him as God Almighty, The Savior, or anything else like that. "I don't know who you are, but I'm addressing you as 'sir' because you showed up, blew me off my feet, and surrounded me with a bright light and a voice. You're definitely more powerful than me and have more authority, whoever or whatever you are." So, "lord" here wasn't referring to God, and wasn't referring to Saul pledging his loyal allegiance to this mysterious person. Saul's loyalty wasn't that shallow. He didn't automatically switch his allegiance to this voice. But he gave his undivided attention and deference. Later, he DID switch his allegiance to Jesus, but only after finding out who was speaking to him, having more information from other Christians, and time to deliberate.

I like simple I’m not much of an athlete and not very competitive but I do enjoy playing a game when a game is laid back enough, so it really doubles as a good excuse to visit with friends. I have some friends who are real sportsman - - into hunting and fishing, and they love to take this city boy out and show me the ropes. I can tell they get a kick out of teaching – and laughing at my ineptness – but it’s all good-natured and we enjoy each other’s company. Sometimes sitting around in the late morning and the dove aren’t active or the fish aren’t biting – we get to visit and talk about…whatever. To me that’s more enjoyable than the sport itself.

I actually learned how to play in upstate New York at summer camp! It's such a simple game of pure leisure. Lawn bowling. Its origins can be traced back to Ancient Rome. I always had this romantic fantasy of old Italian men playing bocce while drinking wine from juice cups. I tried my best to live that out in my twenties and thirties. BUT, today it's a metaphor for something else entirely.

I love the part where he explains how he’s going to guarantee you get just as good a workout as the 8-minute abs – if you’re not happy with the first 7 minutes…(pauses to think about it) we’re going to send you the extra minute free… …imagine if TWI did that with the PFAL class…We guarantee you’ll get everything that we claim on the back of the PFAL signup card – and if not (pauses to SIT about it) we’re going to let you sit (and SIT) through the next PFAL class for free.

HQ, field and staff way corps, grads on the field. A lot of people left and the only voice they had was the internet. The blame lies squarley on VPW for training craig martindale to prey on the flock. Whenever that happens it should be made public, not hidden. Now, Im with you as far a scripture is concerned - and if that had happened we wouldn't be here. But Paul and his wife did try to confront him face to face and it went nowhere.

some additional interesting info... https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/introducing-the-athenians-to-god-pauls-failed-apologetic-in-acts-17/

Bolshevik, have you heard of "coercive control"? It can include where the victim (and yes, there is a victim) feels compelled to perform certain acts by a person in some sort of trusted, or superior, position. Examples: a husband beating his wife, or restricting her access to money; a boss requiring sexual favors of an employee; teachers/pupils and so on. Can include doctors, clergymen, and other professionals abusing their professional responsibilities. You must surely be aware of the amount of coercion at TWI HQ. Some is fairly subtle and some is blatantly overt, with lots of shade in between. LCM coerced Mrs A, and other women. It's abuse, pure and simple. An offence against the women, their husbands, and against God. It's no different from the records in 1 Sam. And I very much doubt God's opinion has changed in the last 3,000 or so years, such as to condone such behavior.

I was in the woods with the geese, ducks, bass, deer, pigs, raccoons, skunks, armadillos, bobcats, trees, flowers, plants, and water. Its amazing how easily you can see and hear God when you remove your nose from a book and your ears from a sermon.

Excellent post OldSkool ! Thanks for that link on the article Why Read the Bible in the King James Version? by Lana Vrz. Great article stating some solid reasons! I usually read NIV and NLT the most – but one of the reasons I often go back to KJV and NASB when doing deeper study is because some of my resources are keyed to KJV or NASB. And probably another reason is just out of an old habit. For 12 years in TWI, I read KJV. Even memorized a few of my favorite chapters. The upside of loving KJV is it comes in handy during a discussion – because it’s easy for me to retrieve a word, phrase, or passage from memory – even if I can’t remember the chapter and verse...and sometimes it's just the odd King Jimmy phraseology that makes it so easy to recall – then I just get on the internet and type in “lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” and I find that it’s in Matthew 28 - man, I’m a walking talking fuzzy memory concordance baby!