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Well, maybe I just don’t agree with 100 percent of your statements as opposed to being deliberately ignorant. I personally don’t have blood relatives in. I don’t seek to harm indiscriminately. I don’t really agree with your generalizations. I do have ex friends in. They pretty much treat me pretty similar to the judgment and shunning that I would experience from blood relatives in. If I post a statement in good faith, and a blood relative in TWI uses it for nefarious purposes, what recourse do I have? Be hyper sensitive and never post anything negative for fear of it being misused? I cannot support that. Sorry.

I can only speak for myself. The good GSC has done for me is to provide insight into thousands of accounts and details previously hidden to me due to the whitewashing and silencing efforts of TWI. It has shown me I’m not alone fighting the personal evil impact of that cult on my life. It provides a mostly uncensored forum for exploring many things affecting life and recovery from a cult. Theology, philosophy, interpretation of scriptures, emotional intelligence, resilience, cult characteristics and recovery, psychology, self care, and music. I guess ymmv.

Who ever said miracles are scarce? They may be scarce in an individual's life or even perspective if one is to rationalize them away. God has noore stopped miracles than he has stopped the sun from rising. Lack of miracles in ones life can also generate from a lack of relational faith in Christ.

I want to emphasize that I do not believe the word "believe" in verse 19 has anything whatsoever to do with the law of believing. The word "believes" means to trust and the one we are to trust is God. T-Bone had written earlier on this thread, "what I acknowledge is that God is all-powerful, and that He is limited only by His own designs and purposes – and we should not assume we know all about His designs and purposes." I agree with T-Bone. The manifestation of faith needed to do miracles and healings is dependent upon receiving revelation from God and this revelation is dependent upon God's plans and purposes. This revelation from God could be what Paul is praying for when he says in Eph 1:17 "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:" What Paul is praying for must be God's will which means God wants us to desire these things which will glorify Him. The fact that it all seems just out of my reach makes me wonder why that is. Sorry, I know I'm getting a bit personal here but it is what it is.

Charity.... thank you for so many insightful posts. Well, since some are telling their stories of miracles and healing.... I thought that this might be the place to share with you one of mine. I have never told this personal miracle here at GSC. On my second year of college at the University of Nebraska, it was a Friday afternoon and I had decided to head home to see family and friends. At the time, I had a 1967 Ford Galaxy 500 fastback and a 900 Kawasaki motorcycle. Since it was a relatively nice afternoon, I chose the bike. So, packed with nothing but a backpack... I get out on Interstate 80 and head west. After about 40 miles, the wind gusts were picking up more intensity until it was a straight headwind. Since I wanted my bike to look sporty, I didn't have a windbreaker shield on this motorcycle. After several miles of enduring these strong headwinds, I thought the "reasonable" thing to do was to get behind an 18-wheeler and let this truck buffer the wind for me. All was going pretty well.... or, so I thought. Another 8-10 miles following this truck and then this miracle unfolded without so much as a thought. Cruising at 75-miles an hour.... a still, small (audible) voice in my head said, "Stop following this truck. Get around him." Immediately startled somewhat, I quickly prompted the question in my mind... "Was that you, God? If so, then I better obey." So I accelerated and moving swiftly into the left lane (4-lane highway) and was side-by-side with the truck driver seating in his seat. This took all of 6-8 seconds. POW !!! The inside dual tire blew and unraveled in a ker-splat, ker-splat.... RIGHT WHERE I HAD BEEN BEHIND THIS TRUCK. Nearly stunned by this chain of events, I couldn't help but think how devastating this accident would have been. I didn't have a helmet on and was traveling 75-miles an hour. At best, I would have laid the bike down and been scraping along the pavement tearing skin, pavement burning and probably broken many bones. Or death. All I know is that God intervened and saved me from calamity (or death) at 20-years old. I was a Christian at the time and sporadically attending a few meetings with Campus Crusade on campus. Lest it should be pointed out.... I was NOT involved in twi when this miracle happened. God forewarned little ole me someone who wasn't instructed in wierwille's revelation and power manifestations. I've always believed since being born again that God looks on the heart.... not head knowledge or boasting of the same. He's a loving and passionate Father who looks out for His children. Having experienced this myself, I often read the Book of John with great interest.... seeing how Jesus ministered one-on-one to individuals, not necessarily groups. God is good always.

Ok trying to process this one. TWI is a small cult. Not as small as Heavens Gate but small. PFAL grads is a larger bucket I suppose. When the world population gets this information, what would they do to us? Mostly blow us off because it’s essentially zero? I mean even our resident troll is blowing us off because we are so few in number we are insignificant. Or are you saying the evil impact of my posting here far outweighs the insignificant numbers to the point of endangering other posters here? Because of lurking family? I mean if you got stalkers you got stalkers. I am not sure how TWI.org or GSC are going to influence that either way…. But I’ll try not to anger all the hit men who silently lurk on this site lol.

Exactly right, Rocky. That's why this open forum model is so thought-provoking and welcomed. For years, we were preached to without any form of feedback. Oh sure, we had those break-out twigs at the Advanced Class..... but they were nothing short of rah-rah sessions to the previous session wierwille just taught. There was no allowance for alternative viewpoints. If posts are unclear, we have every right and obligation to insist on more clarification. If the poster doesn't want to offer any.... then why state something and then, *cut and run?* When someone is "over their skis" it only seems charitable to point out their error. Else, as they fly thru the air downhill.... it's not going to be a pretty sight when they come crashing down to earth.

You've tried to make this case for months. You have not made any sound argument. However, you have made clear ONLY how you view the situation. What you also have not done is demonstrated whether anyone around the "people using the information posted here did so for personal gain." Nor have you demonstrated whether GSC posters "have to fight the people around the people..." When you claim your post is clear to readers here, you step into Mike's shoes. Something written is not clear just because the writer says so. It can only be demonstrated to be clear if feedback provided by readers shows they understood what you intended to communicate.

Your posts raise more questions than they answer: What are those “ unintended consequences?” Twi-followers are mandated to stay away from the GSC website. How would blood-relatives know what you post unless you tell them OR they get on the GSC website themselves? If they are going to this website, then they are disobeying their leadership AND out of fellowship with God, no? If a 32-year old is still that beholden to what others think about his choices and lifestyle, then that person might want to set boundary lines so that he can live his authentic self, right? Where does it say that MY job is to forget? I would argue the opposite. MY JOB IS TO REMEMBER, but still press forward to higher summits in life.

Shunning. Ok, fair. But who is doing the shunning? Who is responsible? I never met a more divisive group of human beings prone to shunning literally everyone but their own insular group than the VPW-following family into which I married. That relationship was the most devastatingly destructive I have ever known. I wish I had followed my instincts in the beginning. I wish had understood NPD. I wish I had known GSC.

I obviously agree with the opening post. I'd go a little further and say religion demands acceptance of the disproven. Watch how people twist themselves into knots over something they would dismiss coming from any other religion. The Book of Mormon contains a fictional history of the Americas. Anyone in their right mind would know that disqualifies the Book of Mormon as a reliable source of knowledge of history. But the Bible's nonsense about a global flood (and before you go there, the "regional flood" story is just as nonsensical because no such flood ever happened in that part of the world as described. More on that if you need it), nonsense about Israelite slaves in Egypt and a dramatic story about every family losing its firstborn, a story that makes it into not one single historical account from the country where it happened. You think Exodus happened? LOL. Name the Pharoah. What? The story doesn't even name the villain? Ok, that's easy. Just go to Egyptian historical records for who was Pharoah when the Hebrews were expelled and all the firstborn of all the families including livestock died in a single night and... and what do you mean it never happened? Never? Like, under any Pharoah? Well, that must mean... And then Jesus gets baptized and immediately goes fasting for 40 days and gets tempted by the devil, according to Matthew. And then Jesus gets baptized and immediately goes fasting for 40 days and gets tempted by the devil, according to Mark. And then Jesus gets baptized and immediately goes fasting for 40 days and gets tempted by the devil, according to Luke. And then Jesus gets baptized and three days later is at a wedding in Cana and what fasting and temptation in the wilderness according to John. And then Pilate comes up with a new tradition of releasing a condemned criminal on the Passover. We know this is true because we actually know quite a bit from history about Pilate. For example, he never did any such thing. Oops. I mean, come on, he gives the people a choice between Jesus, the Son of the Father, and a criminal named Jesus Barabbas (which means son of the father)? IT'S A MADE UP STORY! But instead of accepting the obvious, most believers try to shift the burden. Well, you can't prove it didn't happen! Fine. I can't prove that ridiculous and obviously contrived BS story didn't happen. But come on. Pilate never had a custom of releasing prisoners. Sheesh. Lo Shanta away!

When you say the word of God, you mean the Bible as privately interpreted by victor paul wierwille?

Thank you Rocky. As to what you said about my feeling safe enough to be personal on GSC, this has been true since the first time I posted on the Absent Christ thread. It was and still is the understanding and empathy shown by many of the posters that has helped me to open my heart to what I dealt with in twi and to all Christ has been doing in me since being on GSC. What you wrote about emotional inheritance is intriguing. I can see how it most likely contributed to my desire to be part of twi when I was 18. I’m wondering as well how this inheritance is playing out in my life now. I’ve just placed a hold on Atlas’ book at the library – I’m fourth in line. Thanks for mentioning it. It is noteworthy to me how you continue to learn so much from the books you've shared on GSC as part of your own working through things that are on your heart and mind. You are a man on a journey . (Use the space bar before the yellow dude and you can make him walk .)

Point 1.) He undeniably misrepresented himself as a man of God when he willingly plagiarized other authors and hid it. And further when he fabricated the "snow on the gas pumps" story. This is not slander, it's a statement of fact. Point 2.) In Ohio, where Way Hq is located, if a clergyman uses his status to engage in sexual activity with a parishioner it's considered rape. This also is not slander, just a simple statement of fact. It doesn't require being proven in a court of law before it becomes true.

That is fine Waysider, and isn't there a way to address that? Be able to connect to those in your peer group without influencing the wrong people?

I still have a blood relative who is entrenched in Way theology, though not involved with the organization in a physical sense. It's a thin sheet of ice I have to travel sometimes, so I somewhat understand. The Way promoted, and continues to promote, a twisted and harmful way of looking at scriptures and life in general. That can't and shouldn't be denied. We don't have to stand on the roof tops and shout it, but we have to at least acknowledge it. Sometimes when you get old you look in the mirror and wonder, "What the hell happened to me?" GSC helps people answer that question, provided they really want an answer.

What a strange outcome that would make? If I tip-toed around everything in life so as not to "offend someone".... they would just run roughshod over everything. If NOT offending anyone is the standard practice, then what gives twi the right to go against church orthodoxy? If one takes that position..... THAT'S PREPOSTEROUS, (contrary to common sense).

Totally agree. GSC has been a blessing in every way. If someone doesn't see the benefits of GSC.... then why are they here? Perhaps, that's the real question that certain individuals need to solve.

I am not fighting the way international… I separated from them. I am pointing out their hypocrisy and false teachings. Why have open forums and healthy discussions and debates if everyone is in agreement? If all are in total groupthink, then what you have is an echo chamber.

With the light of open discussion, a multitude of counselors, we begin to see that in twi we were surrounded by false teachers. We had entered their territory where they feast on covetousness following after pernicious ways (causing harm, even death)... where they became traders making merchandise of men. No longer were we in a world of buying goods and services.... but rather of judgments, unrighteousness and scorn. They held power over us by feigning to care, yet overthrowing our lives into turmoil that brought us deprivation of discovering our true relationship with our lord and mediator, Jesus Christ. Those trappings held us in bondage. But now.... we are on a clean path. We walk confidently and quickly to victory.

Oh, that's different. So you're telling me Saint Vic pulled a bait and switch. He claimed PLAF would be the new class. He had all those people pay how much more and travel how far to be a part of it. Then at the last minute he uses the phoney excuse that God told him. Did he reimburse the people that went through the trouble of attending? So he'll listen to God on that, but he won't listen to God when God tell Saint Vic keep it in your pants.

Summary: VP good. Way Corps bad.

This sounds like wierwille’s fixation of demonology - all speculation by him and YOU odd…you’ve conjured up a cosmic economy…God and the devil are inextricably linked together…weird and unbiblical to say the least and It still sounds to me like you’re placing limits on God…Jim Croce plagiarized “if I could put god in a bottle…” ah yes the spurt-ual realm! Maybe re-prioritize your time. Finish Penworks’ book first, then take that much deserved vacation from Grease Spot to mull over the implications of what is revealed in Undertow to reevaluate your thesis.