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Yeah, Rocky.... we've been coming to GreaseSpot for 20+ years and there are lots of posts on introspection, the self-examination of our thoughts and actions while in twi. Yes, wierwille and martindale were "pulling levers of power over us," but it's the response to these situations that expose our character. What a person does in the quiet moments of their lives when no one is looking exhibits character. It was quite clear to me that those who relished in confrontations were advanced forward to higher leadership, ie region coordinators. But there were also good-hearted men and women who were positioned into leadership roles, because of damage control. In other words, the previous leader had stirred up so much ill-will and conflict that he was no longer effective in ministering to the needs in the area... and new leadership was needed. Like any group of people.... you can NOT paint the whole group with the same brush. The way corps certainly had its share of bad-a$$ people, because of the corps training environment. Some actually referred to some of these individuals as "Nazi-corps." Those were the crazy-agitators.... always looking for the things to confront. You know, the chair-stringing fanatic that wants to make sure that every chair is exactly aligned. Or, the flowers near the podium had to be a certain height. Or, the mints in the teacher's podium had to broken into three separate pieces for the teacher to use. Legalism in a box tied with a bow. One of the things I learned about myself after exiting in 1998 was how twi used guilt to compel us to do things. I wrote about this in the thread entitled ........ GSC offers first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in trap. "When I exited twi in 1998, one of the first things I did was resolve to hold no sign of guilt. Why should I hold any guilt over my own head and heart? After all, THEY were the deceivers, the hucksters, the opportunists living off my sacrifice to serve twi. Yet, guilt is one of their many weapons. With incremental steps, each class gives them, they think, more access to govern our decisions and life. Remember.....having finished the advanced class, twi sent out a form letter stating to the grad that, now, he/she 'owed his life to the ministry.'" "One is quickly able to put twi's leadership at arms-length from any more encroachment the minute the weapon of guilt is removed!! With luminous clarity and serenity, one begins to see that twi holds NO POWER over you unless you allow it. Certainly, untangling this whole mess is a process.... but, for me, the beginning step was removing this guilt-weapon from further attacks on my conscience." Wierwille used guilt often at night owls and in his corps letters. He knew corps grads were distancing themselves from their corps indoctrination. It became more apparent with each passing year. That's why "taking a long hard look at ourselves" is SO VITAL. This introspection, with others here at GSC, help us to see the blind spots that we might have in our own lives. Together, we discuss and banter back-and-forth these elements and principles. And, it is a process that TAKES TIME. Not just by reading one book and then saying "a-ha" I now know what to do. And it goes without saying that I hope MarieP returns to this conversation.... because it does take time to sort through the process.

MarieP..... thank you for your post and I hope you stick around a bit. So often, we read these kinds of posts and the poster never seems to return to follow up on a conversation that s/he started. The Way Ministry, and specifically the way corps training, presented a conundrum for many of us. We were often told that this was "training" and not how to treat our fellow believers in fellowship. After all, there was strong confrontation in the way corps to drive home the concepts of obedience and faithfulness, but for those who kept to scripture the confrontations were less impactful. Here at GreaseSpot, there have been several threads started on how way corps deemed it their responsibility TO PROTECT their fellowships FROM martindale and upper-tier leadership. I do not believe we were justified in having 'righteous anger'..... guess I never bought into that concept even while in twi. In fact, a discerning person (ie - way corps) didn't have to mimic this over-the-top behavior by some leadership. Throughout my experience in corps, as a corps grad, and in leadership roles.... I can easily say that what you describe was not true for every corps grad. But if the shoe fits... wear it. I believe all of us will give an account of our actions. Have I taken a long hard look at what I did? Yes, and I believe that most of my actions fall on the good side of the ledger. I don't know if the 80-20 rule applies in this situation, but I would suggest that lots of corps went into the corps training to serve others not badger them with daily confrontation. Remember, quite often.... corps coordinators were confronting one person's attitude or behavior in a room full of 300+ individuals who did NOTHING WRONG. How does one extrapolate this information? Should we wield 'righteous anger' in our branch fellowships when only one person misbehaves? No. We should find time to pull that person aside and teach them why their behavior/actions were out of order. That's loving and proper in the context of teaching someone scriptural integrity not just twi "righteous anger protocol." Some of us have been at this website for 20 years and have discussed these issues over and over again. Yet, in the past 20-30 years.... has twi leadership changed their methods? Nope. They carry on in the same mode as wierwille did back in the '70's. Who holds the greater sin? Those of us who've repented and helped others to see the errors in twi's teachings or the hierarchy at headquarters? I fully understand your point in "taking a hard look at ourselves" in this matter. Well, that's what we've been doing for 20+ years here at GSC. I hope you stick around and further this conversation. If you disappear after starting this thread, then it speaks for itself. Engaging conversation is a very healthy way forward for all of us. Peace to all.

I can only speak for myself. I have stated many times that I regret having led people into that horrible mess and have apologized many times, as well. Beyond that, there is not much I can really do.

I started reading a book last night about The Way, and something hit me hard. We can all say this person and that person in the Way did this and that to me. We can point out all the flaws and abuse, mistreatment, etc. The book was courageous to say the least, but focused on what others had done to the person writing the book. I did not read any remorse for how they treated others. The writer was in the upper tier of the Way and at one time believed Dr. W was the man of god of the world. All of us in The Way Corp did things we should not have done. We treated people the way we were trained and it wasn't always loving or kind. But it was justified because we had to have 'righteous anger'. We can point fingers. We can say this person did this bad thing. But what about a deep long hard look at what we did? We were a part of it! I went through the Way Corp with my husband, and that is when I was fully indoctorinated. I know I hurt people because 'I was Way Corps'. I hurt my parents and my siblings by removing myself from them. My parents were kind, they did not try to get me out, but they were extremely worried and they missed me. I missed my two younger siblings high school years. By the time I did come back, we had a weak relationship and I worked on rebuilding in after I left the Way in 1986. The Way ministry was more important than my family. When this washed over me, I wept and asked the Father for forgiveness for hurting them. My parents are dead, but I whispered to them to forgive me. I realized I had been duped. I could have had a wonderful relationship with them and still loved God and the Bible. It was in our last year that things started becoming clear. At one point I took off my nametag and put it on the Corp coordinator's desk and told him I was finished. My husband was the only thing that kept me in. I didn't want to end our marriage. Before going into the Way Corps my husband and I had a fellowship in our little apartment that was wonderful. We all became good friends and had a lot of fun together. We were not pressured by the Limb C to run a class, and he stayed out of our lives pretty much. I regretted we left that sweet fellowhip for an ideal of becoming leaders. I'm sure this post isn't as clear as I am trying to be. I guess all I'm saying is for us all to examine our own lives while we were in the Way, and repent for the things we now despise that we have accused others of. It has taken me years to get to this point, to be willing to ask for forgiveness.

Yeah this is a biggie. It literally was an extremely hard hurdle for me to get honest about. I was there front and center when martindale became the fall guy for doing what VPW taught him to do. Then once I left it took a while to understand my culpability, and gullibility as way corps and rising into the top leadership ranks working for the dorectors first hand. I literally thought I was in the center of God's will....wrong...and the congnitive dissonance was tough to navigate. Eventually I came to understand my part in the matter and of course asked for forgiveness. Its a tough pill to swallow. I kinda feel for the offshoot guys because they are convinced they are right and wierwille was a great mogfodat. Its tougher to unplug from the matrix when your lively hood is at stake. I mean, I made the choice to re-enter the workforce instead of living off donations that werent for me in the first place and that in itself was a tough pill to swallow. Its humbling to say the least.

Don’t let yourself be confused by facts, evidence, rational thought, common sense.

Topic: responsibility, forgiveness, and agency/choice-exercising I appreciate this thoughtful conversation very much. Still processing and recovering myself but/and making good progress. Am honestly still wrestling with the anger that I finally am in touch w/ re: how vpw et ALL (top leadership) brought further trauma into my life (I left in '88 after 14 years). (Since I was in the way corpse pretty briefly, I'm not sure that I adversely affected a whole lot of lives, but I do accept responsibility for those that I did hurt.) I find that I can hold various truths re: responsibility simultaneously, analysis follows :-p: 1) I can hold vp et all accountable as I believe the Bible directs me to, e.g. how Jesus held the Pharisees accountable for their abuses of power. 2) I can trust GOD to do what He says He will do when He says HE WILL REPAY righteously and fully. 3) I finally can and do authentically forgive the power abusers- recently I allowed God to minister to me when I thought about Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." My self-protective tough survival Fight walls were melted by God's compassion for and understanding of even vp et all, and I forgave them. 4) I am in the process of accepting responsibility for MY PART in spreading false doctrines, in furthering the mission of a damaging cult, and in supporting others who were doing the same; and of receiving God's forgiveness so I can forgive myself. 5) I am in the process of exploring AGENCY- Yes, ALL of the above folks came into some degree of agreement w/ vp et all, i.e., exercised their free will. BUT deeper attachment needs and survival flocking were involved for me and some others as well. (If of interest-"Flocking" is a recently named trauma survival strategy in which there is an INVOLUNTARY attaching to the nearest community, i.e. a PLACE WHERE ONE PERCEIVES THAT ONE CAN BE SAFE, whether that is actually true or not.) So I myself was in dire need of Safe Community in 1974, and I think was lacking full agency due to unmet attachment needs from my past. The mental breakdowns were severe, and this was my Only Hope at the time. Thank you reading!! Onward!

Hi and nice to meet you. For the longest time I justified my time as way corps as "fine" because I never abused people and came along right after Martindale left so I wasn't there for his reign of terror I wasn't perfect but I genuinely did all I could to help people. Then as time went forward I took a fresh look at my involvement in TWI and way corps all that. I felt strongly convicted for being part of it all and especially for teaching the errors they promulgate. So, yes, I literally dropped on my knees and asked the Lord's forgiveness. I have also forgiven those in twi for the wrongs done on me and my family. I have no bitterness left and post here as a warning to others...both doctrinally and practically. It's my way of making amends, not that I need to offer anything else to Christ's redeeming work, but it's me bringing forth fruit meets for repentance. Cheers!

Hey Marie thx for your heartfelt sharing and deep introspection. To start out first yes I absolutely realize and take accountability for my actions which definitely hurt others. I was literally told to yell at people by higher leaders. Yes that is sick. Yes I did it because I was duped. Yes I bear the responsibility for the sin of “following orders” just like all the Nazi prison camp operators. The “Way Corps” is a multi tiered Pharisee organization. Like the masons or any other secret indoctrination program people advance through tiers by sacrificing morals at every turn. I am so sorry for the lost time in relationships with your parents and siblings. I also experienced similar distancing from people who loved me due to my choices. I have been able to repair and recover some relationships. Others I lost. The time was too long and it was too late for that window of opportunity. I experience sorrow due to this like you. In reality abusive and corrupt systems trap the follower into a cycle of abuse where the victim becomes the abuser. It is not easy to break these cycles regardless of where you are at in the cycle. I can only say I have resolved to not become an abuser like I have in the past. And to teach and speak against it. Yes some of the non sanctioned Way International history books contain a telling of the story from the victim perspective. And probably the authors have also grown to avoid the personal abuse cycle also. But victim blaming is evil and it is wrapped up completely in PFAL teachings on “the law of believing” so I’m not going to judge victims. Thanks for sharing and hope you stay for a coffee and a donut lol.

Welcome to Grease Spot, MarieP - that is a very revealing post. After I left TWI I began to realize that I had gotten into the habit of relating to others in a very artificial way - and it was insulating me from any meaningful exchanges. I’d use ministry jargon and push TWI’s agenda and figured if anyone didn’t like it then that was too bad for them. I lost a lot of friends when I left - but I’m learning to be myself , and allow my wife and kids the freedom to be themselves. Not a part of someone else’s exploitative agenda. I can still be the world’s biggest a$$-hole sometimes - but as a family we’re a forgiving bunch - and it no longer revolves around the ministry.

"You just stand, Baby! Stand and don't budge." Can you hear it in Wierwille's voice?

I don't believe every single poster we've ever had, or even every one we have now, has answered all the hard questions, but I think most of the GSC survivors have made it through. Did most of us get some kind of benefit while in twi? Most of us got SOMETHING, otherwise we would have left (everyone except the kids who were stuck in because their families were in.) Once again, I'm glad i got IN, and I'm glad I got OUT. Most of us understand now that twi was neither a safe nor healthy place or experience. We were hurt by people- not the least of it by being taught how to hurt other people (inside or outside twi) and being told that's what God wanted. So, whether we meant well or not, people got hurt, not the least of which were ourselves. Most of us will never have a chance to apologize to every single person we hurt, accidentally or otherwise. We will need to deal with the inconvenient truth that we did so regardless, and that they deserve an apology. It's healthy to reach a moment, IMHO, where one wants to apologize to God for one's failings in that regard. We meant to do well, and we hurt people and disobeyed anyway. One way or another, we all need to accept that's part of our past, especially if we want to stop hurting people in the present. (After all, one common response to having been hurt in the past is to lash out in the present and try to hurt others.) I don't think authors who write about the dangers of twi mean to suggest those who were in twi, including ourselves, weren't responsible at SOME level when we were in. The FIRST questions and topics are how twi was/is dangerous. Later topics include what we did as part of twi. One can't address that at all if one's still skipping around, saying that twi started out as a wonderful place that lcm came along and ruined. (Or worse, saying it's always been ok and is still ok.)

I found these quotes embedded in the Wiki article on confirmation bias. I love Russian literature, and these two sentences from Tolstoy articulate with such exquisite eloquence the inherent problem of confirmation bias. In his essay (1897) What Is Art?, Russian novelist Leo Tolstoy wrote: I know that most men—not only those considered clever, but even those who are very clever, and capable of understanding most difficult scientific, mathematical, or philosophic problems—can very seldom discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as to oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed, perhaps with much difficulty—conclusions of which they are proud, which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their lives. In his essay (1894) The Kingdom of God Is Within You, Tolstoy had earlier written: The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.

Proverbs 2: 1-5 come to mind. My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Some of those conditions are internal, attitude kind of things. But "search for it as for hidden treasure" seems to me to be more tangible, outward effort/action. In this context, readings the research of sociologists and psychologists who focus on cult related matters, for example. That's something I try to do.

In reflection on my time at GSC, I believe you will find a good bit of self-awareness of that very notion in threads on GSC. For one to be willing to do so, s/he must be personally resilient and willing to be vulnerable, which I believe is an indication strong character. I have expressed my regret and remorse over how I handled my marriage, divorce and child raising. I'm thankful for God's mercy. As to the book to which you refer, depending on whether it's a memoir or a journalistic style exposé, I appreciate your take on it. It takes guts to acknowledge what you did about yourself. I hope you got/get a lot out of the book beyond second guessing the author.

Righteous anger is another one of those nonsensical ideas that has no real valid meaning. It's simply a self deluded justification people used to excuse unacceptable, irrational reactions and behavior.

BecomingMe ......."Yeah, my traumatized a$$ wants to come "home"...how many of you got these?! ~~~~~~~~~~ Revisiting your post got me thinking that by sending this postcard to you..... THEY (Rosalie, Donna and others) are showing spite, a desire to annoy, vex or injure you further. This is malicious intent. They could have easily picked up the phone and called you. More than that, surely they understand your desire to separate and distance yourself from them and the traumatized childhood you experienced. By sending this postcard to you.... they are crossing boundary lines (AGAIN) and trying to impose their will. This is not Christian, this is malicious evil. Your exiting twi and boldly coming to GSC to declare your independence is a scathing rebuke of all that they stand for... so they're lashing back at you. It only verifies the spiteful, vengeful wasteland that they inhabit.

Keying off of Nathan_Jr's post from the Absent Christ? thread. I wanted to hash this one out for a few minutes from my own experiences. Ok, rewind back to 1996 and I was a tough young thug running the streets of NYC. Completely out of control and rife with alcoholism and substance abuse problems, depression, anxiety and the like. And...I was witnessed to, yes proselytized by a band mate in a music group I played lead guitar in at the time. Well, anyway, I latched onto the Bible like it was my lifeline, and it was, and still is for that matter. So as I took the classes and climbed my way through the ranks of classes, various nametags, ministry programs, way corps and the like I really thought I was fine. Let me explain. I quit drinking for a period of time when I got involved with the way international. All my other psycho behaviors pretty much went out the window and I thought I was a "new man"....I applied the law of believing as taught by the way international, I directed my thoughts and energies into many positive directions....and I thought that handled all my previous problems because the way international said it was handled. All my answers were coming through the classes and such...or so I thought. Well, fast forward a good 12 years from 96 and I was hitting the exit from the way international as fast as I could get my behind out of new knoxville. I still thought I was fine...well...I wasnt...I had started drinking socially several years before 2008 and had a bottle firmly in hand in 2008. It was my friend, that bottle was my precious. Now, nit wits in TWI world like to think that all these problems returned to me because I had left the way ministry and violated my salt covenant because I left the way corps. Complete bull$h!t. So after dang near drinking myself to death I turned to Christ. No ministry, no outside direction from anyone. Just me and Jesus Christ. That was the beginning of my delieverance. Ive since come to realize that you can't take mental issues, substance abuse, alcoholism and the like and "confess them all away." No amount of positive thinking will do the trick. It wasnt until I did 16 weeks of counselling that I really began to understand what my problems were and how to unravel them. First off, I recognize that I am an alcoholic and as such have a medical condition where I cannot tolerate alcohol...period. Second off, I came to realize that I refused to accept loss. The law of believing would not allow me to accept loss because that would be a negative confesssion....and I was oh so strong in my believing ya know...except i wasnt..I digress... Thirdly, I had some serious depression and anxiety issues that never really left but were ignored and swept under the rug. Depression is a spirit according to the way international and I would never go for help in the way international because I didnt want to be labelled posessed.... Alright...a lot of words to get to my point: The way international is completely unqualified to help anyone with their hodge podge, cobbled together, unbiblical doctrines. You cant ignore major medical problems such as alcoholism or mental issues such as depression...or even psychotic anger, (which I am still prone to and am still fighting to over come) and call that deliverance. Yey that's exactly what the way international taught me to do. By turning to Christ I have slowly but surely been working out my own salvation with respect and awe! Im still a work in progress, but for the longest time in my life to date I am completely sober and have a really good life. The Lord has restored what the locust ate and then some. For anyone considering the way international as a solution to your problems....RUN! Run straight to God and Christ. Or just run to get the heck out of the way before real damage is done. My problems festered under a fake smile and 3 piece suit with multiple nametags. You cannot ignore your problems and confess them away. That's magickal thinking and it nearly cost me my life. By the way, God's Word has never returned void in my life. God had his hand on my life the entire time and eventually led me to safety and deliverance and complete peace. The way international gets NO credit. But God never left my side and my life is in the Lord's hands...quite literally.

Here's a link to an article by Card on the problem with courts legislating by decision: Cool New Rights Are Fine, But What About Democracy?