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Why would I need it if the collaterals are perfect?

I'm going to branch this off so as not to derail this thread, but there are three reasons off the top of my head that should cause reasonable people to doubt the "linguist witnessed and confirmed S.I.T." story as presented. 1. As is almost always the case in these stories, we do not know the identities or capabilities of key participants. Namely, two people spoke in tongues and actually produced a language. Who are they? Don't know. Where are they from? Don't know. What exposure have they had to the languages they produced? Don't know. Without the answers to those questions, it is reasonable to doubt that they did anything miraculous. Do we know the ID of the linguist? I'm of the impression that it's Dubofsky's dad, but I need to be sure to further research the claim. 2. The linguist dismissed the SIT and interpretation claim on the grounds that the interpretation was only close, not exact. Now we need evidence of the linguist's fluency in the two languages presented. There is a universe of difference between recognizing a language and being able to translate on the fly with enough precision to differentiate between a "close enough" interpretation and one that's on the nmnose. So where are the credentials? 2. The linguist's RESPONSE to witnessing this foundation shaking event defies credibility. A real linguist would have been blown away, conducted a thorough investigation, and published his results. He would be a legend in his field, not a legendary story on a message board. NOT THIS GUY. He is utterly OBLIVIOUS to the magnitude of what he just witnessed. "Sorry. There was a preposition out of place. Nice try, though." Horse hit, no matter what your presuppositions are.

So what?

Thanks - I hadn't noticed this about Mike but I've been learning not to give many of his posts my complete attention.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment. ALL of the transcript is as worthless as the red drapes story.

Ive heard a lot about promoting lies and false rumors lately. But I don't know if anybody got my point. I'll try it another way. Let's assume, for the proverbial sake of argument, that VPW told the truth about what he described. My point was, then why tell the world? If the word God was teaching him to teach others was that great, why does it need embellishing? I actually wanted to speak to those who believe it happened. I would say that even if it did, all VPW did by telling this story was make a Muhammed Ali like claim "I am the greatest" instead of letting his teachings stand for themselves

Believe to live abundantly on a genuine need basis. Adundantly and need basis are contradictory terms. I mean, I could live abundantly in a prison cell having my need met with three hots and a cot because that's all I would need so comissary would be my abundance...ya...

Remember what I said about the length of the post being correlated with the attempt to con someone. In the physical realm, hence the claim that it's about material abundance. Yah, I'm sure your memory got all the details right. I mean considering your hero worship of Saint Vic and confirmation bias and all? And I need this word salad, why? And naturally your version is the only one that's right. No, Saint Vic chose a physical object because he meant a spiritual reality. Odds are the truth is that Saint Vic preached the prosperity gospel until people started questioning why it wasn't happening, the his excuse was, well, it's all spiritual don't you see?

Your point touches upon two of the most powerful and insidious elements of wierwille’s theology: his signature intuition and his tendencies toward Gnosticism. The con is twofold. The harmful and controlling cult-leader appeals to the cult-follower’s desire to mimic the cult-leader - - the subliminal undertone being like a hypnotic melody to ask a “God” who bears a remarkable resemblance to the manageable God promoted by the cult-leader. The tendency toward Gnosticism is in the seeking of special knowledge innocently camouflaged as asking God how to understand and believe in wierwille’s legend of the snow storm. Thus the member of a cult is NOT following THEIR OWN instincts but has learned to walk behind the signature intuition of the cult-leader. To relate how effective this subliminal tactic is - I’ll tell you about my own experience. In my 12 years of cult involvement there were many times my faith was challenged over the veracity of wierwille’s story of God’s voice, being given a mission and authenticated by a snow storm. And I would reflect deeply and ask God to help me overcome my doubt. (Grease Spotters should realize I was already biased for which way to think by that last sentence) Each time I went through such inner turmoil wrestling with my “faith” - there was always a myriad of wierwille-isms flooding my thoughts to remind me to see wierwille as the apostle for my generation: “the adversary will always go after those speaking the truth” “When Judas walked out on Jesus and the disciples it was night. The only alternative to God’s ministry is the darkness of oblivion.” My recalling these wierwille-isms tend to subtly push me in a certain direction. Like the Professional Weight Guesser in the movie The Jerk - he limits the choices one can make The Jerk: the professional weight guesser scene

One more completely delusional post with the poster assuming what God is happy with or not. This is easy to do when your god is an idol of VPW and his works. This thick headed nonce describes VPW idolators like he is not their king. Mike is the king of VPW idolators. Also the condescending tone about “close but missing it”. Dude you have missed it for 3 decades despite your parent child tone. And w/r to the JCNG debacle no uncapitalizing god and lord and combining them does not come close to handling the doubting Thomas scriptures despite your condescending tone. It is just repeating the same BS that is in the book and is just as sketchy when quoted here. Doubling down on your idolatry and arguing with everyone here gives you an emotional payday that is why you keep it up. But in reality it really would not practically matter if what you were selling was VPWs plagiarized BS or Joseph Smiths fictional Book of Mormon or LRHs nonsensical ramblings to reach “clear”. Destructive cults are destructive to all who are not high up enough on the Pharisee ladder to benefit from the pillaged riches. Which leads me to the logical conclusion that is what you are in some undisclosed way. High enough up in the cult to benefit. Either that or you are about a 70 IQ nonce. Take your pick.

And the twisted miracle kept on twisting. A maverick metal sculpturist / plagiarist envisioned a cash cow (the classic business jargon version) stole the warming barrel (PFAL book – the older version – now in ashes) and in his portable art studio (altered motorcoach – refurbished by Classic Perversion Conversions) he completely, completely, absolutely completely turned it into a cremation urn…in his decrepit old age the maverick metal sculpturist / plagiarist with a checkered past and chubby from the exceedingly abundantly above moolah coming in, said “let’s twist again like we did last snow storm” and he made mini-urn (aka PFAL Today - - the new version).

Sadly, it did not. A street cleaning crew swept its remains to the gutter where it was picked up by a homeless person who did, in fact, find it to be useful for starting the fire in a warming barrel. Which, when you think about it, is a bit of a twisted miracle, in that it may have kept that man from freezing to death that bitterly cold August night in Ohio.

And yet there is. We have, on more than one occasion, examined weather statistics from the very time and place it supposedly happened. Not only do records indicate it did not happen, records indicate it could not have happened.

You wanna know what killed that lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes? Well, I'll tell you. Some little boy was crossing the street and dropped a PFAL book in the road (It was the older version.). A big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) being driven by a traveling salesman with a death wish came a barreling down the road like a house afire and swerved to avoid the little boy, as he paused to save his precious book.(The older version) The lady with the FIRE ENGINE RED! drapes, being traumatized by the event that she was about to witness, froze right there in the path of the big 'ole battleship grey '39 Packard (with a rumble seat) and commenced to yammerin' a string of strange words, the likes of which the little boy had never, ever heard before in his short but precious life. She didn't look left and she didn't look right and, well, you guessed it. She done got squashed like a June Bug on a hot summer night. I wish I could have been there to see it. It was really somethin'!

Aincha glad there wasn't Zoom or Skype in those days? If there were, you can imagine somebody in Security examining the feed from every single household on line, and looking out for "off the word" things. Not just the nametag slightly askew, or the shirt not being ironed to perfection, or having the wrong hairstyle - but they'd be examining everything in the background. The state of your lounge, kitchen, or wherever you were sitting; whether the curtains hung correctly; what TWI paraphernalia was on display; how tidy the place was; and a zillion other irrelevant details that they have no business knowing. They really would "have eyes on you."

Precisely, scientifically, the class was riddled with "mistakes" and error in every segment of every session. I know. Prophesy is not problematic, neither where it begins nor where it ends. So, it must not be prophesy. Math. I see. Scrubbing. Whitewashing. Got it! He was? Well, that settles it! Victor said it, you beleeeved it.... This is gut-busting hilarity unto itself. I'll let it sit there like a duck. Is that what you thought? Well, it's settled then. You didn't?

Jesus breathing on them does not qualify as an excellor session preparation for an excellor session is not an excellor session Jesus talking about spirit or ghost does not qualify as excellor session Jesus speaking of Pentecost and what would come does not qualify as excellor session Jesus making prefatory remarks does not qualify as excellor session. that's ok forget squat. learn why PARTICIPATING IN excellor session is DIFFERENT than a teacher telling students beforehand what to expect in a excellor session

To me, the premise of this thread has long been irrelevant. I have never worried about the snowstorm since I was woken up a decade and a half ago. Weather reports don't cover everything. In fact, I was out running once at HQ and ran across what seemed to be a very localized snow squall. It started suddenly, was blinding for less than five minutes, then stopped just as suddenly. I'm sure there was no weather station around that would have reported it. But if God told to VPW as VPW said, why use it to boost his own glory instead of just said teaching speak for itself? What does speak for itself to e are all the sexual assaults and associated VPW "doctrine" that laid the foundation for them. That of course includes but is not limited to my own assault. If those are the fruits of God speaking directly to VPW, I wouldnt want any more of them.

When you achieve fluency in a spoken language, it flows from you naturally, as quickly as your mind can think it. You don't overly concern yourself with mechanics or have a need to practice them. Why is this so hard for some people to accept?

I'm beginning to picture you holding up a stop sign and blowing a whistle - pretty cool!

Really? SMH. I can't believe ANYONE who still follows TWI and wierwilleism reads Mike's gibberish (in English). And if they do, I can't believe they do anything but shake their own heads over the mental masturbation taking place on threads like this.

Right Fire engine red drapes are definitely material. They really do sit there like a duck.

The comparison between the unbelievers' abundance and the believers' abundance would usually be enough to lead most rational people to conclude he wasn't talking about spiritual abundance. But, then again...Well, you know...

I think Mike and a few other wierwille fans have got a real problem mischaracterizing Trinitarian doctrine. who would believe in the Trinity the way they describe it. Mike et al use absolute thinking. I'm no theologian. But from what I've studied and the systematic theologies I've read - the Trinity is just one simple label to describe something way beyond our understanding. Biblical scholars use more fine brush strokes and nuances and not the cartoonish broad strokes of fundamentalism wierwille style. Even in Scripture there are details to show a differences in the persons of the Trinity - differences in roles. All flows from the Father to the Son through the Holy Spirit to the believer...jumping into my how-to-explain-things-to-a-10-year-old mode - I will say just like any Father/ Son relationship - God has a Son - so the Son is not the Father the Father is not the Son. Who raised Jesus from the dead? God the Father ! Even in OT there is a hierarchy of deity - look at Psalms the Lord said unto my Lord ...Mike the Trinity is NOT what wierwille said it was!!!

Yw! I have trouble walking at times as well...sometimes its easier to stay in chill mode when Im not working. Ditto.

Thanks for that, but I can get the referral and prescription for free. It's just a matter of putting one foot in front of the other. It's easy here, too. It will be federally legal soon. After all, it's like drinking a beer, only not as physiologically detrimental. And it sure does round off those angles, smooth out those corners.

I guess hi jacking the topic with Kaneh Bosem is up in smoke....ok...I'll try to stop now ....

It's a mixed bag (pun intended) in the US. Kind of a hybrid where some states do medical mj only, some do recreational and medical mj, and some states still have it outlawed. Federally, it's all illegal, but the states rights do supercede federal law at times. Personally, I'm for it's responsible use as there are many many medical benefits. I watched Rick Simpsons story as well, the maker of RSO oil. He cured his own cancer and many others as well with his oil. Anywho...back to God not having a budget and french doors or whatever...

Mike, please, the topic turned pleasant. Kaneh Bosem.

But it's for our LEARNING...

If u haven't already look up Kaneh Bosem on YouTube...

Honestly, I think Mike needs to smoke some weed. See a doctor or something.

1." not counterfeit-able" ?!?!?! what a crock of $hit ! see my point # 4 below. 2. oh, so now the bull-$hit is in the other glove. See my point # 4 below 3. Oh yeah - here’s what Mike actually did – refer to comedy routines and studied the repetitiveness of someone speaking in tongues – whoo-hoo Mike’s the linguistics expert – I replied to his absurd claims here > > > my post Tuesday 4/25/2023 11:51 PM 4. The most dubious phrase of Mike’s absurd argument is “satisfied with faking tongues” . This exemplifies Mike’s lack of cognitive skills in that he cannot distinguish between fact and fiction. I’m being nice in the way I worded that if I would have said will not distinguish between fact and fiction, we’d get into willful intent = someone’s intention to knowingly and deliberately act or refrain from acting in a particular manner or to achieve a particular result. If he cannot – are we witnessing symptoms of a delusional disorder . If he knows the difference between fact and fiction and with willful intent deliberately acts to obscure the difference – he’s acting more like a troll than someone who is delusional. ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike is being misleading to say if one were satisfied with faking in tongues. Satisfied means convinced. People that buy into scams are convinced they are legitimate. It does not necessarily mean the one being conned is really stupid – it could mean the con is a really deceitful trick. I got into this ridiculous argument with him when after leaving TWI and looking into this – I came to the conclusion that what I did was not genuine speaking in tongues. My first time through the class, I did not suspect wierwille was teaching anything deceitful. NOW, READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY > > > It’s possible wierwille thought he spoke in tongues and was passing on how to do it. That doesn’t mean he had genuine speaking in tongues or could teach others how to do something that is ONLY allocated and energized by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. In 1974 during session 12, I followed wierwille’s instructions exactly! And you know what? It sounded like another language. But I’ve come to believe what I did was not a real language. Speaking in tongues was in my top 20-some-odd items to investigate after I left TWI in 1986. My starting point of examination was in the green book, The New Dynamic Church, in chapter 10 How to Speak in Tongues on page 117 wierwille says the following: Have you ever thought through the mechanics of speech? You with your own vocal organs have to do the speaking. The same mechanics that are involved in speaking English or any other known language are involved in speaking in tongues… …The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking in English is that when I say, “I love the Lord Jesus Christ,” I have to think. When I speak in tongues I do not think the words I speak. God gives the words to my spirit, and I formulate them on my lips. I do not think the words, but they are there when I move my lips, my throat, my tongue. End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ The full version of reevaluating wierwille’s instructions are in my post Nov 9th 2022 11:21 PM of Why PFAL sucks and here – but for brevity’s sake I’ve condensed my notes - but you'll probably still fall asleep zzzzZZZZzzzzzZzZz wierwille’s description of the process of speaking in tongues is typical of his affinity to explain the inexplicable. Although he's just describing some of the mechanics of speech - a student's imagination can assume God is supplying the words. All he is describing is very fine motor skills that any adult who speaks a language is very familiar with. The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions. Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the body parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making. One must still engage the brain to think of how to control the lips, tongue, how much to open or close the vocal folds, etc. . Now try this yourself - pronounce the word teeth. pronounce the word cat. pronounce the word baseball. Did it take any great mental effort to do that? I'm assuming you are familiar with the words teeth, cat and baseball and have actually spoken those words outload in some conversation. If English is your native tongue and you're an adult, the speed with which you saw those words, understood what they meant, deciding to comply with my request and then forming and controlling the various body parts to say those words was super zip-zap-lickity-split-quick ! Did you experience any noticeable "buffering"? Did you see one of these floating across your eyeballs? Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues? If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle – God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible? How does genuine speaking in tongues work? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask the Holy Spirit. See below * mechanics of speech ~ ~ ~ ~ How to speak gibberish. As I got further and further into analyzing what wierwille taught and compared it to readily accessible information on the mechanics of speech – it dawned on me that I first did in 1974 was sleep back into an old talent I had for imitating an Asian or Russian language for entertaining my high school friends. It’s merely speaking gibberish. How to speak Gibberish - secret language Gibberish 101: how to speak in Gibberish from Laguna Laughter Club The trick that wierwille pulls on students is to get them to loosen up on inhibitions. Once a person gets over the fear of making a fool of themself – it’s easy to speak gibberish in front of others. Just use all the parts of speech you use when speaking in your language - except don't think about the sounds you are making. Adults have fun playing games like literary charades – sort of a reverse of speaking gibberish - - one player making exaggerated silly moves and the others have to guess the word. A good example of this is in Young Frankenstein: give him a sedagive scene . Sometimes we misspeak. I’ve accidentally made up a word. We recently re-watched Austin Powers in Goldmember (2002) - IMDb Beyoncé’s character is indirectly telling Austin Powers who she is It's me Foxy Cleopatra – after the movie we were quoting lines from it and I said It’s me Foxy Clara Petra. Surprised us all with a good laugh – it was not intentional. If we had a bunch of time to waste for no good reason - We could print a redacted form of wierwille’s description of the mechanics of speech on page 117, to read like generic instructions – something like: Relax and act natural. Move your lips, move your throat, move your tongue, move your mouth but do not think of the words you are saying. Then randomly pick 100 strangers and ask them to follow these instructions. Once they got over the odd situation and silly request and agreed to follow the instructions - how many would start speaking gibberish? How many would go through all the motions but not produce a sound? And finally, HOW do you know – or rather HOW could you verify they are not thinking of the words to say? wierwille was not qualified to be a linguistic expert. And neither is Mike. Has anyone ever recorded these tongues or better yet have the person speaking in tongues perform before a panel of language experts. What’s recorded in Acts that authenticated the speaking in tongues was genuine was that certain witnesses in the audience understood that language. ~ ~ ~ ~ wierwille’s instructions reveal his fixation to specify and detail otherworldly stuff that he obviously knew nothing about. Why do we need to be taught how to speak in tongues? If it’s something of God – we shouldn’t have to be taught. It’s like wierwille’s bogus Great Principle – God who is Spirit, teaches His creation in you, which is now your spirit and blah dee blah blah…where is that stated in the Bible? ~ ~ ~ ~ It’s conceivable that some faked it and knew that they were faking it because the pressure was always on from local PFAL grads (and of course TWI- upper-leadership) to speak in tongues… in the minds of TWI-leadership that was wierwille’s approved litmus test = the decisive indicator students had absorbed the material and were compliant with instructions. It doesn’t prove a thing other than the harmful and controlling power of a cult-leader impersonating an apostle. Don’t get me wrong – by and large I believe the manifestations and other gifts of the Holy Spirit are available – and it’s the Holy Spirit that does the issuing ( see below * * The Holy Spirit assigns the gifts / manifestations ) not the imaginary-rinky-dink-car-battery-holy-spirit concept wierwille taught in the class distributed by TWI…wierwille himself knew how to fake tongues – something Grease Spotters can read in the excerpts from the authorized book on The Way International - - see my post Nov 22nd 2022 6:06 PM on Why PFAL sucks and my post Nov 22nd 2022 9:17 PM . ~ ~ ~ ~ *Mechanics of speech: https://www.speechbuddy.com/blog/language-development/a-quick-primer-on-the-mechanics-of-speech/ https://prezi.com/p/ketszfrzz2ox/mechanic-and-process-of-speaking/ http://www.literary-articles.com/2012/03/mechanism-of-speech-process-and.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skill Organs of Speech – Literature and Humanities ~ ~ ~ ~ **The Holy Spirit assigns the gifts / manifestations I encourage any PFAL grad who is concerned with the veracity of my statement that the person of the Holy Spirit does the dispensing should look into it for themselves – and ignore wierwille’s erroneous teaching …one convenient site is Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages for quick access to alternate versions, lexicons, commentaries, interlinear text. It’s really easy to navigate by clicking on a tab. Below I’ve listed 3 hyperlinks to the primary chapters wierwille expounds in Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. Read the following chapters for yourself, in any translation – the ones I have below are The New International Version: 1 Corinthians 12 NIV (biblehub.com) 1 Corinthians 13 NIV (biblehub.com) 1 Corinthians 14 NIV (biblehub.com)

All without exception or all without distinction. I remember questioning those during the PFAL class. The coordinator ignored the question and handled me. Because of course VP couldn’t make a GASP …. mistake in the teaching of the holy Plaffy the best text available since Arius of Alexandria.

“The Word interprets itself with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision” You just have to redefine math and science as “consulting secret conspiracy theory writings” and “stealing Jimmys math and science homework”.

I keep reading the "God's Budget" thread and coming to the same conclusion. I want you to consider this possibility, even if at first you might find it insulting. It is the byproduct of a different worldview, and not a reflection of what I think of the people on this board as people. I know we are all struggling to know, understand and accept the truth, however uncomfortable it might make us feel. TO ME: The whole thread looks like what happens when well-meaning believers try to conform reality to their faith. We want to know why the devil gets to do things and why God's ability and willingness don't really seem to align as much as we think. So we propose a God who binds himself to arbitrary rules that explain why he doesn't always seem to do what we could have sworn he promised to do in that little checkbook we used to carry around lke it was something clever. Sorry, we don't have the funds to cover the check. God's budget, doncha know. But why was the devil allowed to torment Job? Well, you see what happened was... One of the mental exercises I put myself through was asking: imagine a world in which the things we observe are brute facts, but there is absolutely no spiritual anything behind anything. What would that world look like? Natural disasters wouldn't care about the population they are affecting. The victims of a bridge collapse in San Luis Rey would be no more deserving of death than the survivors of the same incident. Bad guys would sometimes win. Bad deeds would sometimes go unpunished. Etc. In other words, posit a world without God, and tell me how different it would be from the world we actually have. The non-existence of God is the simplest explanation for the paucity and lack of predictability of "miracles." More later, maybe.

Wierwille made a claim that God never promised.

When I personally ask TWI joiners why did they join, they say they just started going and never stopped. The world is full of people passively engaged in life. Join a cult? They aren't doing anything productive anyway. There's noting in those empty minds to counter a leader, even an evil leader. Look out into the world TODAY . . . what is happening out there?

Not necessarily surprising if he is.