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I guess for me it is also bit more complex. Breaking out. . . . . I had no problem leaving TWI of my own freewill. I heard some pretty graphic tapes of LCM spewing vile filth and it was like waking up. It then took years of life outside of TWI to chip off the remaining mindset. Some might even argue I have not completed the process because I am a Christian. However, it really is an entirely different faith and I think that is actually testimony to healing from that TWI frame of reference. Even if some of us walk away . . . . how long can it take to rid ourselves of the beliefs and mindset? Years and years. . . . and even then behavior can still be influenced. For those people who want a Christian faith. . . . it is difficult. . . . they can experience difficulty socializing with other Christians . . . . going to church. . . . and it is not all about being burned by TWI. . . I think it goes much deeper in many instances. For me. . . that cult had a life-altering impact and I know it is because I learned so quickly and firmly to see things in that bizarre black and white world view. Hard to explain, but it has been a battle to come to terms with it. . . find a balance so I can again have faith in something. . . .

Just some thoughts: I also viewed Susan Blackmore's talk and she surely has a point about immitating being powerful. But it is a theory. Theories are not written in stone. In a way I think she lends credence to the rewiring theory, but she also left me wondering how stedfast the effects of immitation really are since people change and thinking and believing are mysterious things, influenced by many forces. I'm no professional on this topic, but it seems true that we are complex humans who have all sorts of ways to "weed out" some kinds of information and latch onto others that suit us at any given time; we don't always fit the theories. As we all seem to realize, each person is different and got into and out of twi for different reasons and often in vastly different circumstances. A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy... So what does it take? For me, the system showed itself broken and I had to face the fact there were better ways of thinking and living that would help me...that's an understatement for those of you who wonder...

In another thread {Wierwille, Jonestown, & "cults"} I mentioned how VPW & LCM, in ~ December 1978, endeavored to 'explain away' the existence of cults, & insisted that twi itself just couldn't be a cult. Interestingly, also in 1978, VPW & LCM once again tried to explain away the psychological dangers of "snapping." Conway & Siegelman released the book, SNAPPING: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change, in 1978. During a noon mealtime 'sharing' by VPW at Emporia ~ late Fall 1978, when the 7th & 9th Way Corps were in residence there, VPW began a hyperemotional tirade about how there is no psychological danger in abrupt personality change such as many if not most members of twi experience early in their involvement with twi, the more common scenarios for this change being: the 12th session of foundational pfal; the final session of the intermediate pfal; or, after 2 weeks in residence during an advanced class on pfal. One purposeful strategy of twi's coordinated programs of psychosocial packaged persuasion was/is the purposeful induction of a sudden change in self-image and one's true historical personality. This abrupt, non-consented change facilitates and enhances the development of twi's cultic, synthetic pseudo-self and pseudo-personality. Therefore VPW's proclivity for use of the phrase, "…this will just blow your mind…" For additional perspective on this harmful & injurious change, see Catcup's, "The Destruction of Self." Also see Karl Kahler's, The Cult that Snapped, & Jimmy Doop's, When the Hippies Found Jesus. With the advent of PET {positron emission tomographic} scans of the brain, one can even observe the physical, anatomic changes that result from this type of cultic abuse. With the advent of functional MRI {magnetic resonance imaging} scans, one can observe the biochemical & physiologic changes induced by cultic packaged persuasion, such as changes in the amount of certain neurotransmitters & neuroendocrine modulators. So, not only did VPW & LCM blatantly lie in order to endeavor to disparage the veracity of the existence of injurious cults, they also blatantly lied in order to endeavor to hide the strategic production of twi-induced abrupt self-image & personality change, as though it was nothing to be concerned about, when in fact it IS detrimental, injurious, & harmful to the individual & thus her or his family. The development of this twi cultic synthetic pseudo-self & pseudo-personality are the very essence of twi's strategic exploitative mental manipulations, aka thought reform, packaged persuasion, that lead to the development of the 'Waybot' individual, replete with corrupt, perverse way-brain group-think. Even though the new twi recruit typically was experiencing a transient vulnerability to cultic baiting, once the bait & switch hook was deeply set, even though this person initially was altruistic with dreams of helping those in the valley of human need, this individual paradoxically becomes, not a savior to those in need, but rather an oppressive jailer of humankind, not granting hurting people release from their prisons, but rather making sure nobody escapes twi's version of 'hotel california,' ("...you can check out, but you can never leave..."). Is TWI criminal or what!?

Is it just me, or does no one grow old in The Way? All the promises about a "more than abundant life" -- long life, more than conquerors, etc. etc. etc. Show me the money! Obituary listing: Source: Kristyne L. Crawley (Panarello) Guest book: Guest Book for Kristyne L. Crawley (Panarello) Paw's notice in the Memoriam forum: Kristyne Crawley Daughter of Larry and Connie Panarello Note: I'm starting this here to discuss the question, when is enough enough? When do you stop believing the crap The Way International is teaching? Is the untimely death of someone enough? Also, speculation on how the "leaders" of The Way will spin this. They're normal procedure is to blame the individual or husband -- allowing fear in their life, letting the adversary in. Because, of course, their doctrine could never be wrong.... Well wishes should be done in the Memoriam thread or the Guest book linked to above. So, when is enough enough? When do you call bullsht?

Visit this T.E.D. talk by former moonie & deprogrammer, Diane Benscoter, about how the human brain is changed by the circular logic, etc. of extreme dogmatic groups. Diane Benscoter's T.E.D. talk I think she may be right about how impenetrable circular logic can be, although for many of us who left TWI, for example, somehow we found a way to break through that firewall so it is not impossible to do. Critical thinking is the method of release, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, this topic is not new to many of you here, but her talk is concise. She has also written a memoir. It's food for thought and debate. T.E.D. is a site for "Ideas worth spreading" as it says. Cheers!

On my continued quest to discover what was wrong with The Way spiritually, I would like to propose Idolatry. The God of The Way was one they wanted to worship. He was made in the image of what they thought God should be like. He was pretty one-sided. He was like a Sugar Daddy. God was like a good buddy. There usually were not any consequences for wrong actions. No condemnation...remember? What about the God of the Bible that says...What you sow, you reap? and God cannot be mocked. I don't think The Way had a healthy respect for the awesomeness of God, the Holiness of God and one to worship with reverence. Again, personalizing this, I discovered an attitude in myself that needed to change. The God of the Bible was not someone I could manipulate for my own personal gain, but rather someone I am learning to accept Him on His own terms.

It seems to me like almost everything depends on the person doing the speaking. 1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. Paul said this, and he was hounded and even had entire cities poisoned as pertaing to whether or not he was up to good or not. So he took more than a little heat for speaking the things that were on his heart. Yet he was not an evil doer. Wierwille said this, and I suppose it is still true statement, but it just sounds soooo different when it comes from a man who had sociopathic and narcissistic characteristics, not to mention delusions of grandure..... oh yeah, and he abused many women and ruined many lives. So whether it is a good man or a bad man who thinks he won't be judged by anyone it seems to me that we are still free to form our own opinions about any man. And the ones who do evil may seem to win, but personally, I think eventually they will have to answer for their actions. (added in editing) A clarification: Paul was exceedingly honest about the evil things he did before he wrote to the Corinthians. Please, feel free to speak in "secular", but do not be offended if I need to ask for clarification.

I would like to dedicate this word study to WordWolf whose incessant mining of data coupled with public education is a constant inspiration for those of us seeking truth. I would also like to dedicate it to the little wood nymphs who come out in the wee hours to drink ale and party with me. Many people have been desirous to understand the last words of Victor Appalling Cyclops, yet without applying sound research principles many erroneous interpretations, often out of desperation at the "loss," have been formed. In this study we shall take a close look at the history and etymology of his last words which were: "Loshanta, loshanta malakasito loshantaaaaaaaiiiih" Using biblical research principles we can take this phrase apart and determine (by god's revelation given only to me in a sandstorm at the 7-11) the true meaning of Dr. Cyclops' last words. Many scholars believe that "loshanta" is a single word. Indeed this is only because of errors in the scribes who copied Cyclops' last words. It is actually two words; lo and shanta. Some scholars believe that the word shanta may actually consist of two root words but that is another study. The word "lo" has been studied the world over. Its exact etymology is uncertain as it appears almost simultaneously in various primitive languages around the globe. It has had many translations but all languages and all translations have one thing in common. "Lo" is always associated with trouble, evil, darkness, sometimes even with a future reference as in "a foreboding of evil." "Lo" became more common in American English with the writings of the Cyclops manuscripts where its meaning was corrupted to mean something unknown. However a close look at "lo" and its historical derivatives clearly shows the link to evil. "LO" man! Whaddup? Let's get down [lo] to the corner and cop some-a-dat drop [lo] dead [lo-lo-lo] excellent rock that the gang just got in. I know this guy who can score it for us by da name of Lo Mein. Take careful note of the relationship between "lo mein", "lo mala", and "yo mama." Naw dude I don't wanna go down [lo] there. That Lo Mein is just a lo life. Other examples include: Man I feel so high today how about you? Naw man it's a lo day for me. That was a low [lo] down [lo] hence [lo-lo] thing to do. I hate people but I'm lonesome. Even the sad good bye in Hawaiian has roots in this dark work as in; Aloha. Man it's a lonely Friday – guess I'll go out on the down-lo. Contrast with the sound high or hai: Man I feel great – so high man. (Japanese) Would you like some more sushi. Hai ("yes" - a positive word). Shanta is a word that is also often associated with darker concepts, actions, and even titles at times. Shanta is almost always tied to the concepts of theft, stealing, debt with dire consequences. Christian mythology later perverted this word to have a meaning diametrically opposed to its roots in theft. This was accomplished by bestowing the (modified) title Santa on a large motor-coach riding person who gave instead of stealing. This concept has been largely debunked except in primitive Christian societies like the United States of America. Looking more closely we see the following examples clarifying it's roots in theft: You shanta taken that bubble gum from the drug store. They gonna lock you up in a jail man – an iron shanty (orig. shantay). My momma's sister, Shanty Jane, got busted with some drop [lo] dead [lo-lo-lo] excellent rock. Here we see the beginnings of the juxtaposition of both words "lo" and "shanta." I want ta [shanta] rob that store and cop the cash. A pattern now begins to emerge as we look at the word malakasito. Malakasito is also a word with clear lineage encased in evil. The etymology of the word to modern usage is similar to how the English word "ball" is derived from the Greek word lambano [λαμβανω]. Most students will remember "lambano, lamballo, ballo, ball. I invented the hook shot." Malakasito is similar. Malakasito → malakasy → malady → milady →my old lady – all having connotations of evil. Also malakasito → malakasite → parasite. Examples include: This H1N1/a (swine flu) is a global malady [malakasito]. My old lady [malakasito] always gets angry when I go out drinking, gambling and chasing other WOW ladies [from milady from malakasito]. Do you see how perfect the language is when you just work it like you were taught to? It just fits like a fist in a butt! A slight return is in order for the last word, clearly a derivative of lo shanta but in this case with an extended ending of "aaaiiih" , i.e. loshantaaaaaaaiiiih. Aaaiiih is a first person cry out. It can be either victory or defeat depending on the context. In the case of Dr. Cyclops' last words we see that it is clearly a combination cry of victory and defeat. Now, putting this all together into a victual appalling to screwage we see the true beauty of research principles as well as shedding accurate light on historic events. Dr. Cyclops last words were in effect: I am the one indescribable evil! I am the lowest of all of life! I will steal all of your money for my drinking and womanizing! Low Life is my Life! Where is my freaking eye Chris!!!! This was "The Cry of The Cyclops." Edited for some formatting issues with cut and paste.

She and her husband were active members of The Way International. They were running a fellowship out of their house. They had every right to expect the benefits preached by The Way International. Instead they have this. Seems like valid questions to me.

When my husband, Bob North, died while we were in TWI, there was blame piled on me, sure. Blame piled on Bob, of course, for dying and accusations as to what we, surely, did to F+ck up the alignment in our marriage, failed to follow "the word" or leaderships instruction on marriage. Bob Moynihan had a meeting with at least the immediate area coordinators, maybe every one, I wasn't invited. This was to hold the now dead man up as an example of "see? we told you what happens". Then Moynihan manipulated family; our immediate family, my parents and sibling snd my husband's sibling, twisted everything he could get his hands on, using unbelief and failure as "what we've tried to tell you all along and do you see why now?" My concern was this dead man's children, I still marvel at how not one of them (Moynihan or others) asked "how are the girls". Not one. And when my heathen parents and gay brother arrived for the service, they were not allowed to attend. I still am amazed how no one, not ONE SINGLE person did a thing to go against this action. It's been 12 years since this went down and I still can't possibly express this enough to paint the correct picture. I hope there is a really special place in heaven for what some deserve. I used to wish hell on them, but no, I want them in heaven cuz I want to participate in their consequences for failing to take care of families, tossing children out, accusing those living in sudden grief and mourning of being responsible in some way. Yeah, I'm angry and yeah, it's a disaster when it happens, then when it continues to happen over and over and over. After all that, I can't answer the 'does anyone grow old in the way international'

The Way really has no genuine answers to life's perplexing questions. It was all just a multi-level marketing scheme, devised to sate the desires of its demented founder. "Stuff" happens because that's how life is. This discussion reminds me of the words to a song by the late Paul deLay---"Life is just a mystery, and nothing ever goes like you planned."

Amazing but not overly surprising that they would be "shocked" that your requirements be written. I think they're surprised when anyone doesn't just take them at their word, and yes, my most recent info for them only goes up to 2004. We may know each other.

I always heard he cried out "mele kaliki maka". That is the mainstream belief anyway. . . . .

Dear Potato, I am glad you shared what you did though. I haven't been around TWI proper for so long that I didn't even know what Rosie looked like when I came here, let alone hear of Mr. Wallace. I am eagerly looking forward to the book. I'll settle for a rough draft even. :) JEFF

My class took place in a small, cramped apartment. We sat where we could. It was neat and clean, but nothing that stood out in my mind. No precise chair arranging that I was aware of. I served on one PFAL team, which was a joke. I never saw so much passive-aggressive behavior in my life (up to that point). Absolutely everything was 10 times more difficult than it ever needed to be, including setup.

according to "The Teacher" booklet: he was doing PFAL in '53, dead alive now in '67 the 1950's are kinda perplexing, some of the 60's

I'm not promoting his group and I don't belong to it but I just received a copy of a new book by Larry Panarello former twi clergy. One thing I do like about him is he never asks for money. It's the opposite of what twi is all about, I think they are living in the past. His book is called "The True Justice of a Just God. It's about healing, restoration and God's justice. He explains how Jesus Christ came to show how God is light and love in the gospels He also explains what the Daysman is. I thought it was refreshing and new. Some material never covered in all my years with twi. Way to go Larry.

He left because he did speak up against the ways of Craig. And Rosie did one of those hide the staff member away in the back room so no one can access him to learn the truth.

Did LP ever say why he left TWI? He seemed to be, and was held up to be by LCM, faithful and obedient to LCM's "leadership", and left after LCM was booted. Seems curious to me, but I don't know...so I'm asking

Since it was at one of his meetings that you and I met and you've been so upfront about him I feel I should be honest also. That was part of the reason we came here in the first place from Illinois y'all. Because we were part of his group for awhile. And even though we left them I have to give him due respect for being refreshing and void of legalism and chains. Both he and Connie appeared to be living the life of example of Christ the way twi kept saying their leaders were doing yet we all knew they were not. My leaving them tied to my husband having a problem but I would have remained myself. And some of you have history no doubt and would find this hard to take I imagine. Similar to how I have wonderful memories of Alan L*cht and some of you here don't.

Returning to Doug Hyde’s observations, he stated that the Christian church had much to learn from the ideological totalist’s [communist’s] techniques, methods, and attitudes. Apparently VPW, as the totalistic, fascist fuehrer, agreed. Following are some of the totalitarian methods and strategies utilized by VPW/LCM/TWI that Doug Hyde espoused. I will paraphrase Hyde and insert corresponding TWI practices where comparable to totalitarian techniques. 6) Like attracts like. Those who are intrigued or attracted by the commitment/dedication they see within the Communist [TWI] “movement” will themselves be “possessed” of a latent idealism, a capacity for commitment/dedication. This commitment/dedication perpetuates itself! It sets the tone and pace of the “movement” as a whole. This being so, the movement can make huge demands upon its adherents, knowing that the “correct [conditioned] response” will come. If the majority of the members, from the top leaders on down, are characterized by their “single-minded” [very emphasized concept in TWI supposedly from the koine Greek word, haplotes, which is interpreted by TWI to mean ‘single-mindedness’] commitment/devotion to the “cause,” and it is quite clear that the majority of genuinely committed/dedicated, average adherents are “giving” [via guilt and fear manipulation] until it hurts, putting in their money, time, thought, talents, and if necessary, life itself, then this living example [TWI ‘living (Pauline) epistle’] of commitment/dedication, and loyalty is “inspiring” to potential adherents, who have never experienced the startling appeal of being totalitarian, deployable [TWI] agents. If one probes into the recruiting tactics of Communism [TWI], almost invariably one will find that it is not the theoretical or doctrinal elements that makes the enticing initial impact, but, the shocking impact made on them by some commited/dedicated Communist [TWI mature member] , which via social manipulation {modeling, peer pressure, etc} predisposes and conditions the recruit to affiliate with a “movement” and to accept bizarre “doctrines” which otherwise most probably would have been totally unacceptable to them via application of their usual critical analysis of a highly emotional, social situation. 7) Commitment/dedication must be met with commitment/dedication. Ideally, it should be backed by a genuine understanding of Communism’s [TWI’s] beliefs]. This is precisely where the significance of VPW/LCM/TWI’s plagiarized, confabulated, iconoclastic, hermetic doctrinal beliefs become of interest to us, because they subserve (under gird, support) the ‘renewed mind’ mental infrastructure of TWI-promoted actions / deeds / behaviors / practices / conduct, these practices being detrimental and damaging to many individuals. 8) What distinguishes the Communist [TWI] “movement” from essentially all others and makes it possible for such a small minority of people to make so great an impact upon our time is the [manipulated, exploited] commitment/dedication of the average individual adherent and the immense and dynamic force this represents when all those individuals collectively make their contribution to the Communist [TWI] “cause.” {Martindale redefined and reframed TWI beginning in the fall of 1995; after this time he began to use more Marxist terms and concepts such as “…committed Way believer disciples of the [TWI] Household ‘individually and collectively’ need to do so and so…”}. Without this [manipulated] magnitude of commitment/dedication, the Communists [TWI] would not be prepared to accept the constraining confines of the organizational culture, the discipline, the never ending, bone wearying ‘Marxist education’ [TWI classes, seminars, special advanced classes, etc], the incessant appeals [via guilt and fear motivation] for ever more pro-Communist [pro-TWI] actions and behaviors [on a personal level: renewed mind activities, glossolalia; On an organizational level: the so-called outreach/witnessing of the {TWI-defined} ‘Word,’ attending Household Fellowship meetings many times per week, attending national level TWI meetings such as Advanced Classed, Special Advanced Classes, Word in Business and Profession Conferences, etc]. 9) Commitment/dedication to Communism [TWI] and willingness to experience the ‘awesome privilege’ to ‘sacrificially serve’ must be developed in a person, then drawn out of him. {TWI would often teach the “principle” of the so-called Biblical “bond-slave,” koine Greek, doulos/doule. This is supposedly an arrangement where one person (the potentially enslaved) would agree to be the bond-slave of a master, so long as the master would supply all of the potentially enslaved person’s needs & those of his immediate family. It was supposedly a relationship of love and trust! TWI taught us that we were to be bond-slaves to TWI’s top Man of God & correspondingly TWI’s hermetic ‘God.’ so that the Man of God & God, now analogously one’s Master, would be in a (? bribed) position to be not only willing, but now able to meet one’s need because of his demonstrated bond-slave commitment/dedication, as evidenced by faithful tithing/abundant sharing of one’s finances, steadfast giving of one’s time and talents, etc}. The Communists [TWI] have had to find “ways and means” of doing this [thought reform, covert packaged persuasion, fraud, misrepresentation, lying, etc.], because after all, the end of a totally Communist [TWI] world justifies any means necessary to accomplish this most noble goal! In the process, Communists [TWI] have discovered that it is good “psychology” to demand much from their people. It is bad psychology and bad politics to demand too little. Communism [TWI] demands one to give his all, all of the time; Communism [TWI] demanded the whole man and got it. This is one of the many paradoxes {hence, ‘dialectical materialism,’ the blending of apparent conceptual opposites} which must face anyone who begins to delve into this aspect of Communism [TWI]. Communism [TWI] we are told, is the great enemy of the individual’s true historical self and self-image. Under Communism [TWI], in practice, the individual’s own true historical personality is to be suppressed [the creation of a new synthetic pseudo-identity, whether Communist-defined or TWI cult-defined]. Philosophically this is assuredly true. But in practice, whilst the Communist [TWI] “movement” is still only as yet on the path to total world Communism [equivalent to TWI’s all encompassing goal of the prevailing of the (TWI-defined) ‘Word’ over the inhabited world], and therefore they must diligently and tirelessly work through a committed/dedicated minority of Communist [TWI] adherents, and “use” [manipulate, exploit] each adherent to the uttermost [TWI spoke in terms of “…one doing one’s utmost for His Highest (i.e., TWI-defined ‘God’ or was it the adoration, veneration, and worship of “THE Man of God,” whether VPW or LCM)], it shows a quite exceptional “concern” [avaricious, organizational self-interest] for “drawing out the potentialities” [terrifying the captivated person into outlandish displays of pro-Communist or pro-TWI feigned bravado] of every individual [humanoid] who comes within its “discipline” [organizational coordinated network of programs of intense, exploitative indoctrination]. The “unfolding and growth” [response to packaged persuasion] of the “personality” [pseudo-personality post thought reform] of the recruit to Communism [TWI] is frequently ‘spectacular,’ for Communism [TWI] sets out to “create” [via thought reform] men of [into] a special mould, a consummately ‘formidable person” [now externally validated via an entity of an unconscionable, external locus of control]. TWI often repeated, “…all ‘learning’ must come from outside of the individual-seeking…” (See the PFAL book and syllabus and the WAP syllabus). Communists [TWI] fully expect and demand of their disciple-adherents to be so fanatically committed/dedicated so as to risk worldly victimization, to be prepared to lose his means of livelihood, to be black-listed by every employer in his particular industry, and to even see his own standard of life and that of his loved ones go down to poverty, illness, and death, if “need” be. To get all of this {Nietzchian} superhuman, utilitarian mega-productivity, Communists [TWI] know that the adherent must be “inspired” [via thought reform and continuous reinforcement of indoctrination]. Communists [TWI] realize that this “inspiration” must come from outside of the individual, that the onus is on Communism [TWI] to “create” it [confabulate, misrepresent, lie, whatever it takes]. Communists [TWI] are hard-headed and hard-hearted enough to know that it is not sufficient to have an organization of enthusiasts. Sacrifice, commitment/dedication, and zeal are not enough in themselves. These [manipulated] “attributes” are definitely important, but they are only a starting point. These [exploited] “qualities” are what “helps” [via response to his intense, indoctrinating, thought reform] to “make” a person persist as an aggressive, active member; these attributes “ensure” [by coercive persuasion] that when the indoctrinated individual is “made and promoted” into leadership, that he continues to lead for the Communist [TWI] “cause” and not for himself.

You try to make a point oldies...that it was no big deal because these young teenaged girls *consented* ....... you know, there were many of us gals who did indeed *consented* to having sex in our early teens....but what most of the guys...the old men who indulged themselves and enjoyed our young bodies did not take into account was that it wasn`t usually a *fun* or *recreational* thing to do for us........for many of us....it was simply an attempt to fill a void ....one that was there for one reason or another...usually not having a parents love or guidance in our lives. So we turn to any source.....we looked to these men who acted like they were concerned for us....like we were of right.....who pretended that they would care for us and protect us ....who offered us the attention our starving souls so craved..... so we would give of ourselves...give the only thing of value that we had..... in order to please the one who was in that position of authority....in order to be accepted and feel protected....throw in the title of minister and tell the starving young woman that it is God`s will or desire.......to then be left crushed and broken when our usefullness was exhausted....or pregnancy or a std made further contact with us inconvenient.... one finds herself alone and ashamed .... you find out that you were nothing more than an object to be used and cast aside when your novelty wore off....you are left devistated and abandoned .......and then you attempt to brokenly put the shattered pieces of your soul back together..... That is why state laws protect young teenagers....adults understand that it is necessary because youngsters are so vulnerable to manipulation. Most professionals, ministers, teachers, psychiatrist apreciate and understand this and why the trust must not be violated. That is why the penalties are do stiff when it is a professional adult who is in a position of authority breaches that trust. The emotional consequences of the betrayal are devastating and far reaching. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oldies, I suppose that because there was no criminal intent according to the bombers religion ... that makes the world trade centers bombing and subsequent murder of thousands of innocent souls not a crime either....your logic is severely flawed....however, I suppose that is a convenient means to justify the crimes of twi as well... according to their religion ...it was acceptable. The Jonestown group forced poisoned koolaid on their kids and then drank themselves , according to their religion, no crime was committed..... That makes the mayans and their baby sacrafice parties upright individuals as well.... Just because ones religion proclaims an action acceptable.....it does not make it a moral, ethical, spiritual, or legally right thing to do.

I was a wow in Rockford in 83-84.............does that count for anything? :blink: Radar