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I was perusing the STF website in an attempt to find out more about what STF has been up to during the time that MG was removed as president and his later resignation from the BOD, and happened upon a 1+ hour teaching on the birth of Jesus. I wondered what JWS could add that no one else had uncovered. Well, nothing. The hour-long podcast delved into the notion that Jesus was born at someone's house instead of an "inn," and that this had been known by biblical scholars for a long time. Duh! Then we get regaled by a purely speculative account of what could have happened during the birth of Jesus and how adding this speculation makes the birth of Jesus so much more meaningful. John, I was really hoping that you would have gotten into more of why Matthew's account of Jesus' birth is so very different than Luke's. In Matthew, it appears that Mary & Joseph actually live in Bethlehem, and they take off for Egypt after God warns them about Herod. I wanted you to explain how a "star" could guide people to Herod, how Herod's people would know about Bethlehem, yet be utterly unaware of a star that attracted people from the east. I wanted to know how a star could literally be above one house, given the relative proximity of dwellings. I wanted to know why everyone didn't go, considering Bethlehem is an easy 2.5 hour walk from the old city of Jerusalem. I wanted to know how you reconcile this account with Luke's version, which puts Mary and Joseph in Nazareth, who go to Bethlehem only after a logistically mind-boggling census brings them to Bethlehem just days/hours before Jesus' birth, and how Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth with Jesus instead of heading off to Egypt as is stated in Matthew. In light of the huge variance in the birth accounts, doesn't focusing on how a word is rendered in English seems a bit trivial?

one of my students just "caught" me on Greasespot. "hey, are you with the way?" "uh, no . . are you?" "no, I grew up in it, my parents left" "me too, though my folks are still in" "craig martindale was a pervert" "I hate those mo-fos" "me too!" he he lol

On another thread, this post from Chockfull needs repeating......and its own thread. And, reading the next verse.........Abstain from all appearance of evil. Far too many were indoctrinated into "the way of wierwille's rightly-divided word".........and GreaseSpot is needful to point out THE EVIL (ie doctrinal deception, unbridled adulation to mogs, sexual predation, financial exploiting, manipulation, plagiarism issues, etc. etc.). Later, under martindale's regime, the buzz-phraseology morphed to "the present truth"......another bewitching from obeying the truth, the scriptures. Thankfully, this site GreaseSpot, addresses the other side of twi to help us PROVE ALL THINGS. Open dialogue is a beautiful thing. :)

lol.... Good one.. Where's the beef?!

Good points, RumRunner and I can't disagree with any of them.

That's scary.

TWI was more despicable to us (GSC folk) because we were in, we got conned (something which people here seem to deny a lot), our egos got slapped down for the foolish decisions we made. But I see no difference between TWI and any other mainstream religion except that TWI was nothing more than a small footnote and the Muslims and Christians are global. I'm pretty much going with Garth - but maybe taking it farther. Please feel free to keep all religions away from me. Religion is not merely the opium of the masses, it's the cyanide. - Tom Robbins

kinda like high school

If I run into an ex-wayfer, it's usually deliberate. I have a number of friends who used to be in TWI, but I didn't hang with them then. I don't hang with them now because of past affiliation. I hang with them because I like them.

Cheranne, These points are the hallmark of nearly every religious organization. The main difference is that "cults" tend to be more legalistic and are that way presumably for the good of the individual and that person's standing with God. The cult creates the aura of having a special relationship with God, not attainable outside the cult, due to a better understanding of what God wants, than what is commonly accepted. No religious belief system can be "proved" wrong, because ALL religious organizations are based on believing and behaving a certain way now to obtain rewards in the life after death realm, and no one's come back to tell us how it really is. We're aligning ourselves with what sounds the best. The problem with TWI was the use of fear and intimidation to control the lives of people, and the notion that the people using fear and intimidation tactics were speaking for God and acting on God's behalf. People who join cults in this day and age, have the opportunity to do so with eyes wide open. If they choose to not do the research and ask the questions, or blindly trust, then that's really their problem. No one can plead ignorance with all the information that is out there.

Thanks Krys,I don't have time to talk to people all day ,so if this can help "someone" understand about cult awareness (then I am glad)all I know is I am suppose to make it. If we all do what we can to expose lies,it could make a differance in someones life and death. (adding this artical) The Culture of Cults Summary Religious organisations and movements are free to practice their religion as they choose, subject to the laws of the land. In practice, this means that cults, in promoting their religious beliefs and gaining adherents, are free to use deception, misrepresentation, psychological coercion or any other techniques which do not leave physical traces and are difficult to prove in a court of law. Initially using conventional marketing techniques, cults promote their particular belief systems. The trick is that through influencing a person's beliefs, it is possible to influence or indirectly control a person's mind. The actual controlling of mind is done by the person themselves, as they attempt to train and discipline their mind in accordance with the tenets of their new belief system. It is the belief system itself which is the primary active agent in cult mind control. Cult belief systems differ from conventional belief systems in a number of subtle but significant ways, which may not be apparent to an outsider. To understand the nature of these differences is to understand the nature of a cult. Cult belief systems are typically: Independent and non-accountable - believers follow their own self-justifying moral codes: e.g. a Moonie may, in their own mind, justify deceptive recruiting as 'deceiving evil into goodness'. Aspirational - they appeal to ambitious, idealistic people. The assumption that only weak, gullible people join cults is not necessarily true. Personal and experiential - it is not possible to exercise informed free choice in advance, about whether the belief system is valid or not, or about the benefits of following the study and training opportunities offered by the group. The benefits, if any, of group involvement can only be evaluated after a suitable period of time spent with the group. How long a suitable period of time might be, depends on the individual, and cannot be determined in advance. Hierarchical and dualistic - cult belief systems revolve around ideas about higher and lower levels of understanding. There is a hierarchy of awareness, and a path from lower to higher levels. Believers tend to divide the world into the saved and the fallen, the awakened and the deluded, etc. Bi-polar - believers experience alternating episodes of faith and doubt, confidence and anxiety, self-righteousness and guilt, depending how well or how badly they feel they are progressing along the path. Addictive - believers may become intoxicated with the ideals of the belief system, and feel a vicarious pride in being associated with these ideals. Cults tend to be cliquey and elitist, and believers can become dependent on the approval of the group's elite to maintain their own self-esteem. At an extreme, believers fear they will fall into hell if they leave the group. Psychologically damaging - when established members leave or are expelled, they may develop a particular kind of cult-induced mental disorder, marked by anxiety and difficulty in making decisions. The disorder exhibits similarities to (but is not identical to) post-traumatic stress disorder, and certain types of adjustment disorders. [iCD 10, F60.6, F66.1, etc.] Non-falsifiable - a cult belief system can never be shown to be invalid or wrong. This is partly why critics have low credibility, and why it can be difficult to warn people of the dangers of a cult.

God first love Roy

Beautifully done.

Been there too!

I'll second that! edit: And I think this is why he acted like Fellow Laborers was nonexistent. He realized rather quickly that Burt*n's franchise operation was diverting revenue from the company store.---sorry, that might be too far off topic.

Hi Hammie... I have been thinking about this thread a lot. Any way I was going to Business college when TWI came along I was studying toward an accounting degree. I was halfway thru the program.. Now no one in TWI twisted my arm but... I, like an idiot decided to go WOW and figured I could go back and finish up later. Well life got in the way and now here I am about to turn 50 and back in school. The question I keep wondering in my head is why did TWI enncourage so many of us to quit school and go WOW or into the corps. Really if they had any sense at all they would encourage you to stay in school more earnings equals more money eventually to them... but more and more I realize at least for VP and the BOT's it was all about a quick buck. I don't think he ever in his wildest dreams expected it to go as long as it did or grow as big as it did. And I was an idiot. They never once encouraged us to continue with our education so we could support ourselves and our family it was a sudo you should do the corps training. or go WOW you can go back later. Really now that I think about it it makes me a angry at myself for being young and foolish and not stopping long enough to think it all thru.

Did they say?Give me one reason why we should not ask you to leave?Give it in writing? Twi did that to me/group of wows when I was a wow.

I just wonder.. why would (or in some cases could) one want to "get over" experiences that define their for lack of better words, existence? Some people, this defined much of their existence.. others less, some practically nil.. my experience at a Junior college, and four year university in mid-life also define much of "me"..as well as the pains of adolescence.. parents.. loss of both parents before I could sufficiently "rebel".. Marriage.. being a responsible adult, caring for family with children.. Divorce.. and the pains involved with that.. personally.. I wouldn't want to just "get over it". I think its a part of "me".. maybe there will be more of "me" if I "keep truckin".. I think just "getting over it" a cheap fix..

As I have been away for a few days, I was not surprised to see a large number of posts in this thread. I don't know if I should be surprised that SOWERS Grad hasn't posted in days. What I do want to know is, what the heck have the REST of you been fighting about? :) George

it took me several years of intensive therapy before I could admit I'd been in a cult. I was simply too ashamed, and afraid no one could relate. it's entirely possible that your friend has the same fear, which is preventing her from healing, and the hurt is just festering and leaking out everywhere. how can you get to the point of acceptance (and I don't even believe in the forgiveness bullsh!t that the touchy-feely spiritual therapies embrace - sorry if that offends anyone, but I think forgiveness is over-rated) and if you don't get there, the bitterness won't go away.

Nice post. . .thanks for that. . . can I make you a hat too? Here is a thought. . . random as most of mine usually are. . . . maybe you actually have some things to address within your own life and learning more of what happened can help you to do that? I don't know you or about you. . . . so. . . as I said. . . . just a random thought. That cult permeated thought patterns. . . our ability to assess. . . even the compassion we naturally have for others was tempered by a warped view of love. A keen sense of justice with a basic understanding of right vs wrong was nearly nonexistent. Do you remember what it was like? It can take time and some ugly revelations to rebuild the person you were meant to be. . . before the "Way". What were you looking for? I think I read you still look forward to the return of the Lord? Do you have a church? Can you be with the Christian populace at large without holding yourself apart? Has it dawned on you yet, we may have been the ones who really had it backward? What is wrong with the question. . . "How can I help you to get over it?" You said you knew what was going on. . . . maybe you really don't quite know the depth yet. . . . whether you evaluate TWI from a Christian perspective. . . secular. . . or some spiritual angle. . . . . . it is important to reason it out and evaluate it. . . . considering any residual effects it may have in your own life. Again IMHO. Another random thought. . . . .the NT gives a few cursory nods to Satan. . . but, have you ever looked at the time and language devoted to false teachers?

The "cure" comes in bits and pieces. Sometimes it's through kindness and understanding. Other times it's through a swift kick to the mental derriere. Think of it like a puzzle. The pieces can all be there, spread out on the table. One day you get a few pieces to fit. Other days you get all the mountain done. You have to be looking and trying to solve the problem - but the work pays off and eventually you get a complete, whole picture. Who's to say when and where and how that moment of epiphany will come? People aren't cake mixes. You can't simply add milk and stir. Like Crystalclearblue said, there are some times that a one-on-one "get over it already" is appropriate and necessary... and most of all HELPFUL. The timing of those words is critical. They cannot be rattled off flippantly. There are times that someone has properly chosen to tell me to get over something and move on with my life. Those times have helped my immensely. The words always came from someone who had my best interest at heart and not just that they were tired of hearing me. When I stop bucking and listen - then I really find the areas where I am actually working against myself. Oh well... another $.02 to add to the pot.

Shellon,You should have had compassion,empathy,love of God,they (twi) are so full of it. Who were they to decide that?Glad you got out and now have a life. Deafh is an enemy,someday the sting will be gone,something to look forward to.

Dang, I can't believe you are playing with us like this.

Precisely. One word that doesn't make a difference. (OH but it must! Or else I can't send you to the bank! a la pfal...) It's straining at gnat pellets. All in the name of biblical accuracy - when in fact it's all about the amount of abs they can pry from some unsuspecting person who just needs to know. And now I realized that I no longer care about stf/ ces or any of their lot.

RumRunner, No one gave a whoop at the time. TWI's making such a big deal out of when he was born took all the fun out of Christmas. At least STF doesn't make a big deal out of that like TWI did. It doesn't matter whether he was born in a house, inn, stable, or barn. It doesn't matter whether Mary had the help of a midwife or whether she and Joseph ended up being the only ones there. None of that makes a bit of difference. It's just one more thing to feel like there's a "one up" on orthodoxy. There is "a" version of the Bible that uses house instead of inn. One uses "lodging," while another uses "living-space." Most people don't read any of those versions. The point is that no one gave up their bed and Mary didn't get any special treatment just because she was having a baby. I don't know. I just thought it was ironic how so much emphasis was put on a single word that doesn't make a bit of difference in the outcome.

I can hear the plaintive sigh and see the shaking of the head.

OK knowing my reputation for cynicism let me preface this post with the promise that the question I ask and the reasoning I use to come up with the question are genuine and not meant to derail, demean or in any other way devalue this thread. Question: Why would I care what Jesus' birthday was? Unless I was a Pharisee of the times perhaps and watching over the young lad to make sure he got his Bar Mitzvah on time, or some such other calendar driven event, his birth would seem to be pale in the face of his sacrifice and resurrection. The birth was simply an entrance into the world - an unpleasant place at best; little noticed by contemporaries at that; and not noticed by the local powers (Rome & Jerusalem). The death and resurrection was the culmination of Jesus' public and indisputable victory over evil and the promise to all mankind of their ultimate victory as well. Now those dates - heck yeah - those are worth remembering regularly. Hey Martha!!! Tomorrow we can party and celebrate how Jesus kicked Satan's azz right into the 16th sub-basement of the heavenly outhouses. Make sure you pick up some tequila and limes on the way home from work! Ohhh - I'm a month early?!?! So what let's celebrate the victory anyway! Further, if I am going to watch dates, verify actual dates through several calendar changes etc, I got bad news for those congregational types. I am really going to celebrate Jesus' victory with some margueritas and some grilled steaks. No need for putting on a suit and tie and sitting in an uncomfortable chair while someone intones the same snot as last year. Let's party over his victory. Steaks this year! Seafood next year. None of that repetitive congregational snot.

I agree. I haven't talked to anyone since MG's "departure," but what little I've listened to tells me they have no idea. I'm just not sure I want to go to all the trouble to point out additional flaws in their thinking. They thrive when they think they're in the throes of "persecution."

Anything that affected your thinking and behavior as strongly as TWI did is going to stick with you on an at least subconscious level. I haven't been a practicing Catholic for over thirty years, but I still can recite several of the prayers from the Mass. I still want to respond to certain situations with the punchlines of jokes that I learned in high school. It's no surprise that patterns of thought learned in TWI will float to the surface.

Yes. That was truly the irony of it all. People were in BIG denial about it at the time.

I guess for me it is also bit more complex. Breaking out. . . . . I had no problem leaving TWI of my own freewill. I heard some pretty graphic tapes of LCM spewing vile filth and it was like waking up. It then took years of life outside of TWI to chip off the remaining mindset. Some might even argue I have not completed the process because I am a Christian. However, it really is an entirely different faith and I think that is actually testimony to healing from that TWI frame of reference. Even if some of us walk away . . . . how long can it take to rid ourselves of the beliefs and mindset? Years and years. . . . and even then behavior can still be influenced. For those people who want a Christian faith. . . . it is difficult. . . . they can experience difficulty socializing with other Christians . . . . going to church. . . . and it is not all about being burned by TWI. . . I think it goes much deeper in many instances. For me. . . that cult had a life-altering impact and I know it is because I learned so quickly and firmly to see things in that bizarre black and white world view. Hard to explain, but it has been a battle to come to terms with it. . . find a balance so I can again have faith in something. . . .

I tend to agree with Oakspear...After spending 13 years in twi, including going wow and corps...when I left, I never looked back and was over it in ten minutes. I think every person is different and of course, some have had trouble with "adjusting their thinking". I believe that for awhile my thinking was heavily influenced by twi (Wierwille was a great con man)...but "rewiring" by brain?...never happened. I never let them get that deep inside me...but that's just me.

I for one don't buy the "rewiring" theory any more than I do "brainwashing". Why or how did we get caught in the circular reasoning loop? 1. Wierwille was an extremely good salesman 2. Most of us didn't know enough to ask the right questions 3. Many of us got to the point where we had so much invested that TWI was "too big (in our lives) to fail" Those of us broke out of the circle did so for different reasons and by different methods, I would think that a "rewiring" or brainwashing would take more to break than it did for most ex-wayfers

You are right, Penworks, very concise. On a similar note, I'm reading and researching on this right now where perception (thoughts) cause biological changes at the cell level. Bruce Lipton has some great thoughts on the concept.