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let me give you a clue. Rock of Ages.. 1977..

MOG Privileges Back in the day, when eyebrows were raised about VPW's material excesses (ie: hot motorcycles, classic cars, jets, vacation property, expensive hunting and fishing gear, etc.), people were prone to rationalize it by saying VP was under great pressure because of the "greatness of his mission" and he needed these things to relax so he could continue to stay receptive to "revelation". There's even a section in one of the classes that talks about how important it is for a MOG to find ways to relax. So, how far do such privileges extend? Do they extend to the MOG's family members? How about his cronies? How would their use of these things heighten any supposed ability of the MOG to "move The Word" ? Let me take a wild guess. It must have "relaxed" him to know he could use ABS to provide his kids and buddies with hot cars, and such, to use.------------- Sounds like plain old fashioned exploitation and opportunism to me. I'm just sayin'

I rode in said car one time. My wife (at the time) rode in it several times. Aside from it being in pristine condition, the thing I remember most is that he told me the car did not actually belong to him. I don't remember if he said it belonged to Gramps, or big brother. My wife (at the time) and I had a big falling out over what I thought was the equivalent of impropriety in having such a vehicle at his fingertips while the rest of us drove clunkers. That was when all the "needs basis" propaganda was starting to fill the air. I also questioned, much to her chagrin, his fondness for W!ld T^rkey while the rest of us were couch diving for quarters to scrounge up a 40(oz.) ----Did I mention we got divorced not long after that?

Taking me off on another tangent. I think one of the things that I liked (and now I find I dislike) about TWI was that the organization filled a desire to correct people on insignificant stuff. Since I was low on the totem pole in TWI, I really couldn't correct anyone in the organization because everyone in it aspired to a higher level of spirituality than I did, but I could turn and peck on someone outside the organization. The "grow a pair" comment was made when I was stupid enough to tell someone no. It was easier to tell someone you would do something and then just not do it.

Mark, We don't live in a Christian country. . . . be glad we as a people embrace Christian values. You can't tell someone who is not a follower of Christ to do as He commanded. They reject Him. Why would you expect them to individually do what He says? You seem to want to impose that view? Jesus doesn't impose Himself. . . . he offers Himself. When we as a society seek collectively to do the things He would have us do. . . .you call this "grave evil". . . . I think it is a small miracle. You say it creates a culture of entitlement. . . . you, that is your opinion. . . . . I look at it much differently. . . as I have seen people on the brink of despair receive assistance. . . . it is a blessing. . . a safety net. . . . poverty is cruel Mark. We as Christians need to be working within our culture to effect change. . . . with the gospel. . . once you start imposing narrow parameters on people who are seeking to help others. . . . you have something ugly and you are headed to a man made imposed theocracy. To Add: When did food, clothing, and shelter become an entitlement? Seriously? If we receive these things with thankfulness. . . . I just don't get it. . . . . . I never will. . . . would you rather they go hungry. . . . I cannot believe that. . . so be glad people down trodden and hurting have a good meal . . . . be thankful God does provide.

Mark, That wasn't the interpretation in post 13 at all. . . . it is you who have actually extrapolated that definition. Here is what I said. . . I am not a socialist nor do I advocate a socialist state. God wants us to depend on Him and Him alone. . . . okay. . . at the end of your work week. . . tell your employer God has you covered and say no thanks to your pay check. Who are we to tell God how He will provide for those in need? Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 67 Pay your obligations (to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor. Government does not take the place of God. . . but God uses governments. . . for His purposes. In our society. . . which is governed. . . we have social welfare programs in place to help care for the needy. Thank God. I think you are arguing a point that was never made. We have a secular gov't which embraces the care and concern for it's citizens. . . . you call this a grave evil because it is the STATE doing this and God wants us to depend on Him.. . . . my point is. . . all good gifts come from God. It IS God who gives the bounty of food on the table. . . . whether it comes from the food stamp program or your paycheck. . . . one way or another. . . the food, clothing, and shelter we have ALWAYS comes from God. . . NO MATTER how it is paid for . . . . . a gov't voucher or a paycheck. God sets up government for His purpose. . . . to wield the sword. . . . keep the peace. . .not even a tyranny will allow lawlessness. You want to protest the use of gov't money collected in taxes for the use of social programs. . . . SOCIAL PROGRAMS. . . I think your outrage and use of hyperbole such a grave evil is sadly misplaced. Is it any LESS God's blessing because it doesn't come from the source YOU believe it should? I pointed out to you that God has even used bad men for His purposes. . . He can use what He wants and when hungry people eat. . . it is a blessing from GOD. I never said Christians should not resist gov't. . . . read Acts chapter 5. . . . it is better to obey God rather than men. . . . and it is also right to have regard for good things in the sight of all men.

That is exactly why it was a cult,"As every man had need" 1rst century in the 20th?No one ever paid for my gas. Entitled?Yes.That is why the whole thing played humpty dumpty,That is why the new attempt will fail.

I wonder what it was like to go through the same corps with him.. I think he graduated from pa's miracle program.. did he have to hitch-hike to lead with only twenty bucks in his pocket? Or did he take the big boat? Did he even HAVE to go to lead? were the ream sessions "modified" in his presence? was he over others in work details? Or did he muck the pond at the barking command of some other numbnuts? Did he have to beg and grovel at the feet of local "believers" to get his sponsorship? Write letters? Or was tuition waived? when he was an "employee" of da ministry, what did he exactly DO? Have a nice desk, a nice office? Or did he crawl under oil spewing wowmobiles? I guess what I am asking: and this is INQUIRY, not an accusation: maybe someone who went through the program at the same time could answer the question- What purpose did his corps experience fulfil? Did he actually learn how to DO something, or were they just training him to be an arrogant buffoon?

I was told that one time in the early 90's after I had alreaady left for afew years and called the Limb Leader of Florida, one Alan LiXht. He was one very angry dude! I was more amused than annoyed...Personally I think it is projection as anyone in a leadership position has essentially been 'castrated' and is incapable of making any decisions or independant thoughts and acts, or doing anything than what they are told. They brought it up--they are the ones with the castration issues

Note of clarification The photo I posted is a "stock" shot, not the actual car. But, it looks amazingly LIKE a particular car I remember. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Car 54 where are you?

Yeah!Give me a seven.

Ah yes.. "busy".. a busy "worker".. working for what? I was lucky. After I left or rather chose not to submit to stupidity (i.e. I'll think about it and get back to you. yeah, that's it..) no offshoot leader had my phone number.. maybe I was "lucky"..

One of you "elders" is worse than Esau.. you sold your soul and heritage for one stinking tank of gas.. if you are reading this, it might be an "oh my god" moment.. just think back..

From Skyrider on another thread: you pathetic "old timers" who snagged junior in this disgrace: what are you doing, that is any bit different? The only thing I can say that MIGHT be different, is number 9 and 10 on the list. For now at least. I can't say either way. The relevance here though, even if you didn't partake in gramps sin, were you AWARE of it? If so, how does that affect your "qualifications" to lead? Do you still sweep gramps real legacy under the rug? The worst part.. you raised junior to believe that gramps was some kind of bible super hero..

The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind of situation. Although one would think that four hours a day of bible study/training, along with four hours a day of disciplined physical labor would adequately prepare someone to hold one's own in a debate or arm wresting competition.

<IMG SRC="http://gbutler.info/image_tmp/TheBeaver.jpg"> LTR, Eddie Haskell, the Beaver and Wally

Funny how the past comes and bites one in the rear. Don't be embarrassed. I've had it nip at me as well a couple of times.. You know.. any LEGITIMATE organization you would apply for for a pastorate or such, knowing your past, would likely ask most of the same questions.. yep.. starting with questions about your "degree" in theology.. yet you place yourself in a position where your "followers" cannot.. what does that suggest, hmm?

Geisha, The reason I am so blasted opposed to government assistance programs is not out of a desire to not feed the poor, it is because the programs damage our society as a whole. They tend to create a culture of entitlement rather than a culture of obligation. It's that simple. I think we both agree that individuals have obligations to the poor. I think our point of disagreement is whether individuals can fulfill those obligations through government action or whether those obligations must be fulfilled directly by that individual. I have cited Biblical examples of where individuals have obligation but have asserted that there is no basis in either the Bible or in the tradition of the early church showing that this should be translated to the government. If you can show me, out of either Scripture or out of the tradition of the early church to show me where I'm wrong, I'll be happy to review that. Your example from Romans 13 shows that I am obliged to pay my taxes and be a good citizen. But it does not put an obligation on the government to care for the poor. Therefore, the obligation still resides with the people. You may think that I have a very narrow, Biblical view. I know a lot of Calvinists who would gravely disagree with you. But I'll accept your slam on me. After all, Christ and His message should change society...society should not attempt to change Christ and His message. You have a good point about us not living in a theocracy. We don't and I'm thankful for that, because my particular brand of Christianity has been suppressed by the majority in this country in the past and would surely be again in the modern day if it was allowed. Despite the fact that we do not live in a theocracy, I am still obliged to follow my moral conscience, which is formed through my religious beliefs. The difference is that I have to respect the rights of others to disagree with my specific religious beliefs. It does not mean that I have to not follow my conscience, properly formed, in discourse. As to the country being blessed, we will likely have to disagree on this. I believe that the country is blessed by God only to the degree that the society and its members live godly lives. That does not mean a theocracy, that means walking upright in our day to day lives.

Yep.. interesting that it was half of the "cult" of socialism, as some call it.. from each, according to his ability.. and what purpose do these "princes" fulfil? Well.. I guess they are supposed to make war. Protect us from debils, or trinitarians, or spiritualists and such.. there is no real enemy, so they make one up. sounds kinds Machiavellian doesn't it?

What were his high school days like in the seventies? Did he take the finely manicured and polished boat to school? Or did he stand out on wienerville road and wait for the bus on cold winter mornings with the other kids? Did he have any real friends? Or was he a loaner? Involved in sports? If so, could he perform, on a team, without being mr big, son of he who invented the hook shot? Could he function in the real world where pa's name didn't mean spit? "hi.. I'm a sonofavic. I'd like a cup of coffee.." "that'l be a buck fifty five..like the rest.. now wait your turn.." did he ever get COMFORTABLE with that concept? Based on my first and following impressions: I would say no.

no, it wasn't gramps or uncles car. It was a big boat.. nice at that. If I remember correctly his initials were on the license plate.. I know.. I just MUST be thinking evil.. he probably got it from hoeing beans..

I think the gas incident is very relevant to this day.. there were likely a few hundred "believers" who needed that tank of gas more than he.. what ENTITLED him to MINISTRY property, above all the others? Didn't he have a few bucks in his pocket to PAY for a few conveniences like every one else? This may be a rather small matter, but he was a preacher's kid, using his dad's name like a credit card.. I wonder what else he charged.. bringing this back to the sowers issue.. it's just another question about those who run the thing. Too many questions, too many unresolved issues. And they date back to the early seventies.

Heh. maybe so Frank. I was only being sarcastic. But the arrogance lives on.. as nasty as rosie might be, I can kinda see how she might want to drum that kind of arrogance out of da "ministry".. no room for two like her. I think the "specialness" of the family.. and all drove her NUTS. Sure, call her an opportunist.. and she likely had to kiss vic's "royal" rear in ways we may never know.. along comes junior with the same kind of arrogance.. maybe he just brought back a few bad memories.. I'm not saying I agree with her.. I just am saying I can understand it.. I don't know if it is genetic or learned behavior. In either case, I've observed the same arrogance in v2p2.. doesn't have time for anyone who doesn't agree with him.. calls gramps his "hero".. accepts fawning and worship from numb brained followers i.e. "whatever you say, he is a GREAT MANOGAWD.." hasn't even hit thirty yet. who do they really think they are? Royalty? Entitled to a high place, over the church body? I kinda thought there isn't supposed to be "royalty" or "lords" over God's heritage..

I meant to say the car was Dons,The family member did not say,as the time they had in twi was at a end, booted from twi right after that. For the youngest,I can relate,I was the youngest in my family too,hey wait vic was the youngest in his family. Maybe the youngest are the ones who "get away with it". ham,I do not know if the young one at roa 77 sold his soul,Daddy just wanted him out of his hair. chip off the old block ya know.

Well McDs isn't that good for you anyway . . . Usually if someone had an idea either a debil spurt gave it too them or they got by revelation or they done stole it from vpw . . .

It wasn't Don. It was the baby of the family.. sorry if I've been so cryptic.. but whatever amazing (?) things that have been done with that car, I'd like to hear it.. :)

Don wierwillie car,one family member remarked to me "There were amazing things done with that car."

Ha.. yep.. sold the lowly squirrel said soul and heritage for one stinking tank of gas.. pa was otherwise busy with a grandiose teaching on Hebrews 11.. maybe the kid just wanted a little gas for the big car to tool around to get "lucky" or something.. you know.. a little road trip to St. Mary's or something.. heh the little fruitcake was every bit as arrogant then.. his heritage won't buy him a stinking cup of coffee here now..

Dont keep us in suspense,who sold thier soul?

I can fix that if you'd like

you know.. sometimes that is the best one can do. In a lot of situations or relationships.. the only times I can think I have said the wrong thing, was in situations that I really thought (in twi terms) that I was convinced that I HAD to.. If you have someone non-confrontational.. I'd say.. "be blessed".. maybe you have someone with half a brain at least..

The problem is, you aren't starting at the fundamentals. You know, the not so hard to document.. "thus sayeth the lard, the sun will rise yet another day.." in about fourteen hours here, anyway..

maybe the recipe for snake oil was more appropriate, with the ingredients he had at the moment..

The cycle of "ever learning" certainly keeps one busy.

Exactly! My husband is more of a man in the way it matters to me than anyone else I've ever met. That's why we're married. He was taking care of business at work and at home and not running off to try to impress people who didn't give a rat's a$$ about him or our situation.

To me, the irony of him even having a job at Home Depot is just too much perfection, be his job title President or Greeter. Wasn't a Home Depot somehow involved, allegedly, in the lawsuit we first learned about at Waydale? The lawsuit that sent him off TWI grounds, carrying little more than a tampon and a toothbrush, on his own for the first time, yeah that one. I'll look it up, but I'm pretty sure...... (edited to say "a" Home Depot, since the Co itself shouldn't be implied by me to have been involved)

Maybe he was too busy getting revelation on the hook shot to be bothered with such a minor detail as the internet..

Had wierwille been more honest.....St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Van Wert, Ohio might have been his lifelong pulpit. Had wierwille been more honest.....he wouldn't have stolen Rev. B.G. Leonard's class, The Gifts of the Spirit in 1953 and pawned it off as his own. Had wierwille been more honest.....etc. etc. etc. BUT......if VPW had received revelation about the internet, then why couldn't he have received REVELATION to write his own works, demonstrate God's power, and serve the Lord with uprightness?

hmm.. might be good, who knows.. but to get enough "substance" from a few for tacos, wouldn't one have to include the innards and such?

Well for one thing he surrounded himself with a bunch of kids. When I was first "in", you were old if you were 25. Don't you think we would have seen right through the bs if we had been in our 40's or 50's? TWI would have fallen apart eventually imo because we were getting older and starting to ask questions. One more thing about his "charm": Someone once said that when a person is very evil they come off like someone who is very confident. Yet, it isn't really that they are confident at all, it's that they are completely selfish and don't give a rip about people and they very truly do not care what others think. They only give a pretense of caring about others with the goal of using them for their own selfish purposes. Like when Marie Antoinette, Queen of France said, "Let them eat cake" when thousands of French commoners were starving.

from your reference Waysider, the movie scored: maybe that's the connection to HA.. the critics can't find anything positive to say.. In regards to *mr* allen, if I dropped anything, it would be the "duck" part.

Half would be progress. TWI is down what? 80%? Probably more. I would PAY to see him at a news conference. Hitting on the female reporters. Screaming at employees. Name tags for everyone! Have to bring your own coffee. And it's not optional. The usual TWI meeting stuff (stringing chairs, etc.) Maybe he'd get locked up in a padded office? JT

Is he still at a Home Depot in Toledo? does any one know which one? Seriously--Im actually heading through there sometime this upcoming weekend and will be needing some supplies... it would be some sort of Karmic closure if I could send him to get a box of 2 3/8th inch woodscrews, a few tubes of bronze silicone, a 3/32 drillbit and a maybe roll of 5 mil plastic--somehow something silly like that seems like it would be interesting to me in a weird way if anyone has any info PM me

"These kids" don't need a fat farm - I'm just saying that the regimen might actually produce real transformation rather than package free labor under the guise of spiritual enlightenment.

and the kid who apparently runs this thing.. I think he is just as inept and unprepared. I don't think he had a clue of what the "elders" were dragging him into.. so they want to know what kind of reception they will get in the "world".. I think they found out. There will be many, many questions. "Oh.. that's nice. Who is your group affiliated with.." Oh, nobody in particular.. "who did you say is on staff?" well, there's me.. "They were trained by who?" oh, just spent a few years in a work study program on a farm in Ohio..

You would think. and its supposed to be an "honors" program, at that.. the "best of the best" and all..high achievers.

I would not badger him either.. I'd start all over again, calmly with the original set of questions.. what are you doing that's any different from the old ministry? Are you aware of the abuse that occurred in a "send them home any time you feel like it for whatever reason" environment? Who is on "staff"? What exactly are their qualifications? What kind of safeguards are put in place to protect the "students" from the "teachers"? Then we can proceed to a few other questions.. there's quite a log jam.. what is the sleep schedule for the "participants".. how about food? Is the menu good, or is it near to way corps standards of starvation? Do you REALLY think you are a "great man of God"? If so, why? If not, why do you let your pledgelings refer to you in an inappropriate manner? Do you require the trainees to sign a hold-harmless statement? well.. I don't think the questions are really that hard.. and my questions are not directed to the new "graduate".. but to the ones that are supposedly running the thing..

Well I wont check any questions that have to do with open or transparent, honest, truthful or forthcoming--Those can immediately be checked right off the list I will however give them an "A" for hiding well under the bushes, as well as fearfulness. I'll give them great marks for those, although those arent personally my top priorities of things to look for in a religious group. ....St. Vic Jr. come on over---Where are you? Show us what you've got--we are all interested in what you have to say- Stand and be counted Dude

I agree this could rewire the whole system of what we were taught by vpw causing the light to go on!