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Not entirely sure what you have said that is either loving or constructive; but critical, yes! And yes, there is a relationship between GSC's arrival, and LCM's departure. Have you read the court documents detailing his depravity with a certain person's wife? No? Okay, look about and you'll find out why these events coincide. Even now, there are people who have been "out" of TWI for many years (decades, some), who are so traumatized that they are only now addressing some issues. And the people who post (or at least look in) regularly are the ones who hear and understand - in a way that many outsiders or still-Waybrained, appear unable to recognise. If you don't find it helpful to be here, you've no obligation to stay.

Rocky, for some reason I thought of the old saying a guilty conscience needs no accuser – where a person knows they are in the wrong reveal their guilt by what they say or even how they interpret what others say. In the context of Grease Spot, this idea comes to mind when folks come on here and vehemently defend, explain away, minimalize, distract, derail a discussion about wierwille, TWI, whatever and/or intensely attack Grease Spotters or the things they say.... sometimes it seems as if a discussion on Grease Spot has struck a nerve...Now when I said the person knows they are in the wrong – I mean as regards to the light of truth exposing some hypocrisy or cult mindset within themselves…a lightsaber splitting open their close-mindedness. I went through that many times myself when I first left TWI; one of the first experiences was while I was shopping for groceries and looking at other people realizing what a spiritual snob I was in TWI – holding back tears, squirming in the light of this new awareness that I was no better than anyone else. There’s another angle on this following WordWolf’s quote WordWolf, your post made me think of something I learned from Rocky’s "reading assignment" thread - so stay with me on this - folks that persist in any notions requiring Grease Spot to change reminded me of the scene in Hamlet when Queen Gertrude responded to the insincere overacting of a character portraying her in a play staged by Hamlet (so this is actually a play within a play); when Hamlet asks the Queen (his mother) what she thought of the play – she responded “the lady doth protest too much” meaning the emphatic declarations made by the actress portraying the Queen are too excessive to be believed see Wikipedia - the lady doth protest too much …usage of the phrase may vary currently – one writer on Quora said “thou doth protest too much “ is an indicator of hypocrisy, something like virtue signaling, only stronger…virtue signaling is an expression of moral values with the intent to enhance one's own image - see Wiki virtue signaling )…in summary I tend to think much of the negativity directed at Grease Spot and Grease Spotters is just posturing - behavior that is intended to impress or mislead.

There continues to persist the notion that the GSC is REQUIRED to be a Christian messageboard, rather than a messageboard open to all religious positions (including anti-religious positions and a-religious positions.) To require that would be a DISSERVICE to twi survivors who no longer consider themselves Christian. Some ex-twi were so scarred by twi, by vpw, by lcm, by JAL, by CG, by rfr, that the flee Christianity completely. I disagree with their decisions, but I have sympathy for anyone who's been hurt like that. Telling them to "just suck it up" does not work, and is rather INhuman. (There's other non-Christians who didn't flee in anger- I think they're also poorly-served by being silenced- and the twi survivor communities are ill-served by silencing them.) The vast majority of discussions about twi don't require one to believe the Bible. We can discuss what twi says, and what the Bible says, and show they are not connected, without requiring any poster believe the Bible. (Objective truth is the same no matter one's personal beliefs.) BTW, there's places on the GSC for someone to post something pro-Christian. Also, as the GSC is about twi and its splinters, and surviving them, it's not a requirement for people to continue posting. Plenty of devout Christians have stopped posting and gotten on with their lives post-twi and post-GSC. I consider all of them to be GSC SUCCESS STORIES. They got what they needed and then went on to live their lives.

First, to correct a few factual inaccuracies at the same time..... After vpw had unilaterally appointed lcm as his successor, and vpw's health waned, vpw found out that the system that embraced him while he was The Big Cheese With No Accountability now embraced lcm, and vpw found himself as irrelevant as he'd made everyone else. Unable to accept being treated like everyone else, vpw ran to Gartmore and cried on Geer's shoulder. According to CG- whose account I believe reflected what happened- vpw spent a considerable amount of time making all sorts of predictions (which all failed to come to pass) and claims that the current leaders of twi had now stepped out from serving God, etc, etc. CG wrote all this out as a 40-page letter, "The Passing of the Patriarch." He insisted on confronting the top leaders with it, and when he addressed the in-residence Corps with the same letter, he brandished a pistol. (He loved using dogs or guns to try to intimidate people.) The 40-page letter goes on at great length but never makes any SPECIFICS. If it was addressing real problems, why couldn't it name even ONE problem that needed fixing? It was all vague comments. Around this time, one or two PRINCIPLED leaders (RD and possibly one or 2 others) had been approached by people who had been abused/raped by vpw or lcm. RD immediately went to address this. He was escorted off grounds that same hour at gunpoint. A handful of top leaders got together to see if they could salvage the situation. Unfortunately, part of this was JAL writing an equally vague letter about some nebulous problems at HQ. JAL went around the US, telling people what he knew, collecting cash donations, making himself known, etc. Once it was clear that JAL and a few others were more intereted in making a new twi-style group, RD parted company with them. JAL and friends formed "Christian Educational Services" - later Spirit and Truth Fellowship International". In the beginning, they said they were open to discussing doctrine and there being no sacred cows. A few years later, they published a declaration of core beliefs, shut down their messageboard, and shut down disagreements as a whole. The 2 biggest concerns among their adherents were probably their rather harmful doctrines of "Personal Prophecy" and "Momentus." (We have entire threads about both subjects- each thread being about ONE of those 2.) They could now have someone "prophesy" that anyone who disagreed with them was a spiritual danger- and they did just this. JAL's aware of this one quite vividly- his divorce with his then-wife was traced to repeated "prophecies" made in an attempt to shut her up. To this day, AFAIK, JAL's never apologized for leading people over the cliff on that one and insisting it was Biblical- all while silencing discussion on it. The other was the SECULAR progam "Momentus." It's an MLM that runs as a training program. Its names keep changing so that people can't look it up online and find out all about it. A few of its names are claimed to be "Christian." The practices of the program show no connection with practices in the Bible. There's various activities that a good Psychologist or Sociologist could identify as increasing groupthink and encouraging people to be louder and more aggressive. A number of participants of Momentus (a number under EACH of its names) had breakdowns, required psychological assistance, etc as a result of participating. Eventually, CES/STFI stopped openly promoting it, and got evasive on whether or not they were still recommending it. (They refused to be clear about continuing to use it, or beginning to abandon it.) When people spoke to JAL privately, JAL rebuffed normal discussions and advertised Momentus. It was impossible to have a normal discussion with him any more- any conversation was a marketing opportunity. BTW, eventually JAL and STFI parted ways. JAL and their other leaders BOTH wanted to be in charge and in control of all the dough. So, JAL left and- AGAIN- formed another ex-twi twi-style group.

Do you really assume/surmise that telling the stories people tell on GSC are about "trying to get someone to settle their differences with someone else? Why might you have a hard time grasping that telling one's story or stories is about anything other than telling one's stories?

Beguiled, it's my time, and energy. I love reading the various posts on the GSC. Some I agree with, some I don't. But, even with those I disagree with, I still find the posts interesting. I personally had no idea of all the drama, that went on in TWI, until I read all the posts here. Back when I was in TWI, everything was Moonlight, and Roses, or so it seemed. However, since I started reading the posts here at the GSC, I have learned that TWI, f--cked over tons of it's people in various ways. For many of us, we spent our youth, money, and energy in various TWI programs. Youth, money, and energy, we could have used in better ways. I had some great times in TWI, but I also had some problems. I think the GSC is a wonderful, and healthy way to discuss TWI, and what it meant to various people.

RB, I am an "Old Fart." I attended my first "Twig", well over 40 years ago. I had many positive experiences with TWI for 10 years. However, many others didn't. Many of the women, and some of the men, had very unpleasant experiences with it. I have no idea how old you are, but I am 63. Decades, and decades ago, I was sexually abused by some of the men in my family. I have struggled with PTSD my entire life. It's been very difficult to "get over it." But thank God, for therapists. My present therapist is a young man, who is an excellent therapist; probably the best one I have ever had. I have long forgiven the two men, who abused me, but I have never forgotten it. I have read some of the horrible stories that happened to others, here at the GSC. The TWI presented itself as a, Godly Christian organization. However, it has been reported over, and over, that VPW, and others raped various women, and took money, that didn't belong to them. For a "Christian man", to rape one woman, is shameful. To rape, dozens, or perhaps hundreds, is a tragedy. RB, I pray that you never experience sexual assault; it could leave you with life long scars, and mess you up emotionally for years. Just my opinion.

Thank you for these links T-Bone!!

Very true.

SOME good advice. However, "Look Only to God?" What does that even mean anymore? Looking to God is what got many of us trapped by Wierwille's version of god and his social system. THE most important thing adults need to do (AND teach their children to do) is develop critical thinking and analysis skills. A good bit of what you listed is a part of a healthy critical approach to religion. And don't be mistaken, one of the first things cultists do is make the point that their version isn't really religion but a relationship with God. That's fundamental for establishing the walls between Wierwillism (and any other cult, because he was far from unique) and other people of faith. There are (educated) people who escaped from twi who still think that truth is something they get from god by revelation. In practice, and by definition, that makes them subject to being blown about with every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14) because what it boils down to is that they believe something to the effect that their first thought is from God. That was in the advanced class on PFLAP but did Wierwille ever show where it said that in scripture? I don't think so. But HE TOLD us the definitions of what he categorized as manifestations of the Holy Spirit. And for a long time, many of us believed him.

"We have a strong ministry with a bright future. If any of you feel you need to talk, please call. My number is 315-638-2382. I am not into arguing or debating, but am keenly focused on spiritual truth and can perhaps shed light on any genuine concerns or questions you may have." Translation: Sit down and shut up. I want compliance and obedience to twi's mandates. What most all of us experienced in wierwille's ministry ("the good old days)..........was silent obedience. We were NOT allowed to ask questions in the pfal class. Even questions that were submitted at the end of the class were side-stepped......or sent to hqtrs for a later reply. See the pattern. Wierwille, early-on, had devised a shrewd system of avoiding direct questions........especially questions that others, nearby, would also hear. Sure, there was some truths in pfal that wierwille plagiarized from others......but the methods of control were ALREADY IN PLACE. TWI is a cult......not because of its beliefs, but because of its methods. Scientology has many of the same systems........1) Deceptive recruiting, 2) Climb steps to spiritual maturity, 3) Strict obedience to leadership, 4) Going Clear - Going Corps, 5) Disconnecting from family and friends, 6) Refusal to listen to those not in group, 7) Immersion and Isolation, 8) No debating another counter-point (No Acts 15), 9) Fear Doctrine if you ever leave the group (cop-out, grease spot by midnight), 10) If you leave group, you lose everything. Vern flat-out says that he will not debate the issues. He is smug in his self-serving righteousness. Obviously, his mind is a closed mind. He cannot grow, because he cannot question the possibility why some 3,500 corps NO LONGER stand with twi.......or why some 40,000 (???) pfal grads do not associate with their teachings. How can he NOT consider the dismal state of twi's affairs? Dismal numbers in classes, advanced classes, staff recruiting and corps attendees. Rather than stay ensconced at hqtrs compound and echo chamber......maybe try something different? Take action on what you preach.

Vern Edwards is corporately-groomed to purport company policy..........no matter what. Vern embodies the religious servitude to twi, not God. He is twi's "Ministry Man." Just to make it clear, this is NOT a ministry backed event. When one person stands up for the ministry ..........in support of the ministry We have a strong ministry Hey, Vern......don't you get it? The Way International was/is A FACTION that is canvassing, persuading disciples to support their cause through fair words and good speeches (Romans 16:8). Every teaching, class, and program is cherry-picked to tweak the scriptures towards promoting twi-servitude......not God. Corps and Staff Placement Meetings were and are implemented to further the outreach of the way ministry.......often to the detriment of the individual. Why do you think that hundreds of corps grads have abandoned twi since 2005 and some three thousand corps exited before that! The premise of your foundation is not biblically sound. Every teaching, class and program should be held up to the light of God's Word......NOT whether it is "a ministry backed event." Without accountability, twi has no checks and balances in place. Thus, one is left to know them by their fruits......and The Way International has had LOADS OF BAD FRUIT these past decades. It is often quoted....."To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” Whether it was wierwille's corps teachings or martindale's corps teachings.........we sat for HOURS listening to verbal assaults, strife, division and character assassinations directed at corps individuals. Was this God's will? Was this instructive? Or, was this manipulative? Intimidating? Coercive? Exploitive? People are more easily controlled by fear rather than love. Was the corps program fear-based? Yep! Did it come near the standards of a God-inspired, walk-by-the-spirit, and see the mighty works of the Lord? Nope. After decades of reading and learning from other men's works and ministries......I believe that the corps "training" was an indoctrination program. The indoctrination herds individuals into a corral of conformity. Vern is now twi's next president. Meet the new boss......same as the old boss. From this letter, it looks like Vern's mind is grooved into the same mindset as his mentors. There is no way to have "a strong ministry" with this herd, groupthink, mentality. Read the Gospel of John......and count the number of times that Jesus spoke direct revelation one-on-one to individual hearts. Jesus Christ was and is a personal lord and savior. He found those burdened with fear, guilt or shame......and set them FREE. No more boxes. No more programs. No more herd-mentality. John 3:16 For God so loved................and we are free, indeed!!

Maybe the “Trust-o-Meter” is another name for critical thinking skills. I think it might be like a muscle…while in TWI, critical thinking skills are not something one is encouraged to develop…so the muscle atrophies. Grease Spot is a great place to get various points of view…I believe humility is an important element too – and since I don’t know it all, it pays to check out what others have to say. It would be impossible to make a 3-D rendering of an object if all I had was my one perspective. What’s behind it? What’s on the side? And if others had just the same perspective as my frontal view that wouldn’t help to complete the rendering. And perhaps critical and creative thinking go hand in hand. I’ve learned a lot more about Bible stuff after I left TWI – reading and listening to other sources – analyzing – and then seeing various options on how I can apply stuff I learned. keep on with the keeping on love & peace T-Bone

Grace M. C., I wish to this day I had smacked that guy in the mouth for saying that we should "take him up into the North Cascades so far no one can hear his screams, and take turns hitting him with a 2x4 until he realizes that if he ever disobeys again, he will be taken back to that place and he will die there!" This piece of offal also told us that he would drag his 3-year-old daughter, the youngest of their four children, down the driveway and kick her into the street before he would ever allow her or one of his children to come between him and his loyalty to "The Ministry." I wonder if his three sons and his daughter are involved with TWI? I doubt it. Oh, hey! Since you're retired military, I heard a man say this on TV last night, and I thought it was cool. This person works closely with veterans and he uses the term "PTS" instead of "PTSD." He said it's because the word "disorder" is a label that would make potential employers look at the hiree differently. I thought it was cool, and would also work with others who have, for example, ADH (D). Anyway, thanks for all your posts!