T-Bone

LOL Chockfull !!!! Still not sure of why the name mix up – either you’re always on my mind or it’s a sign of old age…which reminds me of a funny family story: grandma – new in our country (yup a bona fide just-got-off-the-boat-type-grandma) would babysit for our mom and dad. She would get our names mixed up – or even call us by one of our cousins’ names. We wouldn’t respond even if she was looking right at one of us but saying a different name. Then “Why you no come?” she’d ask. one of us: “Grandma, that’s not my name.”…so eventually she’d just use a "generic" form of address – for example: “hey you, get a you pajamas on now”....grandmas - ya gotta love their adaptability.

that's my bad - don't know why I wrote "Chockfull"

Your analogy of BBs vs a Sherman Tank may have something to do BOTH with the sender AND the recipient...I thought Rocky was being sarcastic about your response to Chockfull - and I can see why Rocky said that... going on other discussions I’ve had with you - there’s been times when I’ve disagreed or asked for clarification and your response seemed to me to have been condescending (and you may not have meant for it to come across like that ) - like I haven’t paid attention, I haven’t thought it through, followed what you wrote previously, I’m prejudiced because of a bias, that I don’t see your point as big a deal as you do, etc...well I’ll fess up - yeah maybe I’m guilty of that sometimes - and I’m usually good about acknowledging that...but I’m not trying to be super-critical ...just offering some honest feedback. so what’s my point here? Sometimes folks might clam up, retreat into a Sherman tank and batten down the hatches if they think they’re coming under fire...I’m a big fan of considering other viewpoints and have said before I appreciate your input and method of analysis...but as I’ve also said to you recently on another thread - maybe your frustration is a combination of you not being clear and me being dense...patience and humility are virtues we all need to work on. and hey TLC, if I’m totally off base here - disregard...peace.

Just a side note - off the main topic - after re-reading craig’s homo-purge letter to the corps - I just have to say it’s one of the best reveals of the type of leader he really was: a true legalistic-loving hypocritical Pharisee with zero-tolerance during his tyrannical reign...what callousness! I think maybe craig just might epitomize the hardhearted element within wierwille-centric indoctrination... == == == == ...back to the topic: I don’t feel so compelled to view the Genesis 3 account in such a strict literal sense as taught in PFAL or in the provocative speculations by wierwille or craig...the fact that few physical details are given - I’m inclined to think the account of the fall of mankind , rich in religious symbolism may also resonate with parents - who want their kids to know the difference between right and wrong - and yes , learn from life experiences - but sometimes as parents we might not approve of our kids getting into things which are not yet age-appropriate for them... back in Genesis - perhaps it’s like kids ignoring their parents’ instructions...so maybe not a big deal on what the “fruit” was - other than it being like I said above - knowing right from wrong ...but maybe the kids wanted to take a shortcut to learning about that - to try to figure it out for themselves ...guess I’m of the opinion it’s natural for kids - and even adults sometimes - to be that way... we can be taught a lot of things...the rules and regs…”that’s the way things are done around here”...but isn’t it part of human nature to flex our muscles...maybe it says something of our indomitable spirit... but in a parenting context - we all know kids will try things anyway - test or push the boundaries - and hopefully we’ve tried to convey the reality of consequences (good or bad) from the things we choose to do...as parents we know our kids will make mistakes - so we hope it’s not something so bad that they can't bounce back from it; well...it’s all part of growing up - isn’t it? also...there's no prohibitive time-frame given to Adam and Eve - was it forever? or could it have been only for a certain duration in God's mind? Taking the account at face value - I'm inclined to think it was a test. something along the lines of a procedure to establish the quality or performance of something. you may look at the result as a failure - but what if the test was also to prove the extent of freewill? were they free to make even a wrong choice? it says something about the Creator - he/she did NOT create robots. It doesn't appear that God was totally surprised by what Adam and Eve did - given the fact that provisions for redemption were quickly put into play; besides promise of the Savior - banishment from Eden, the cursing of the ground and increase in labor - can be viewed as redemptive as well as disciplinary - which is corrective along the lines of instruction, training, reproof and such. So I’m not saying it’s great that mankind failed right out of the gate nor do I have some fatalistic view of freewill – that we’ll inevitably fail; lacking the power to act without the constraint of necessity or fate is not really freedom; but I do see hope in the overall picture – from the fall of mankind onwards – in that people can learn from their mistakes…indeed how does one truly learn except by real life experiences…sometimes we goof up…but we have to pick ourselves back up and not give up on hope. I think it was in the movie “African Queen” that Humphrey Bogart said “Things are never so bad they can’t be made worse”... I know it sounds oddball – but I think that suggests hope - if one can see how things could be made worse then they might also think of ways to prevent it from getting any worse – that hope is the attitude of a survivor – a person who copes well with difficulties in their life. …no matter how much I've screwed up something – I could still screw up the situation even more – or – I could starting working to rectify the situation: boom – while driving my car I hit a pedestrian; let’s make it worse – I keep driving – a hit and run. Let’s start to rectify it – I turn around and go back to help - or even 3 days later I turn myself in...sure immediately stopping to render aid is the right thing to do...but what if I freaked and drove off...well - that doesn't mean I can't change my mind and come back or turn myself in later...certainly not ideal but better than doing nothing. I don’t know...just thinking out loud in all this...hope I wasn’t too loud.

Every student in our class receives a free pair of reading glasses. They’re yours to have for a lifetime! Enables you to read between the lines, through the lines yeah verily thoroughly through and through the lines of the authorized King James Bible while at the same time verifying the integrity and accuracy of what wierwille said pertaining to a particular verse. For any passages not specifically addressed by wierwille, these amazing reading glasses will play a soothing audible message while at the same time administering low dosages of Kool-Aid-tivan to be absorbed topically via contact with the frames of the glasses; our research has found this is the best method to calm really inquisitive students so they can wait patiently to take the class again. Why not enroll in our class today – your very own reading glasses are waiting! your very own special reading glasses

Our research will show you how the Bible interprets itself, believes itself, and on occasion will even mark and avoid itself.

II Peter 2: 1-3 fits the cultic-ways of TWI to a T: 1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. The funny thing about being in a cult - the whole time I was involved in TWI - it never occurred to me that I was being exploited...I really believed wierwille was giving his all for God and the ministry - and so compared to him - many times i felt like I wasn’t doing or giving enough. It really took the wind out of my sails when I finally realized he wasn’t a good shepherd that did his best to care for the sheep - all he wanted was to fleece the flock! Merchandise is something bought or sold...A Cult leader makes merchandise of people - their hearts and commitment are bought with lies and empty promises only to be sold down the river...betrayed!

Skyrider, you had an interesting point “The pfal class held the keys to the doors alright......and once locked inside the cult, it was hard to find your way out.” That got me thinking about a lot of the benefits the PFAL class claimed to provide actually had the opposite effect - to your detriment - a few of the supposed “benefits” pertinent to your thread: Enables you to separate truth from error: Oh yeah fat chance of that happening...You get sucked into a cult mindset - not seeing the bad tree / false prophet / wolf of Matthew 7 - that you are now involved with ! You are like a blind person working as a teller - handling money at a bank (if the bank was a fellowship - and the accepted currency is disinformation, twisted interpretations of scripture, lies, polarizing ideas, deception, manipulation or anything else that has real value to TWI and serves their warped agenda ) - you have no idea if the currency you are handling is counterfeit or not - unless of course, the bank manager (wierwille, TWI, your local leadership) tell you it's counterfeit or not; and just as an fyi: the more counterfeit money you exchange or distribute to your customers - the more perks and praise you'll receive from leadership; you choose a counterfeit church over the local church that may have been a lot more transparent and served you better; the real “benefit” of the class is in favor of TWI - that you will stay true to their indoctrination and not err from what you’ve been “taught”. Develops more harmony in the home: as wierwille said in the class “when it comes to the word - I have no friends”; thus the litmus test for who you can associate with is whether or not they are receptive to your "stand" on what’s taught in PFAL; it doesn’t matter if it’s your spouse, your kids, your parents, or any relatives or friends - it’s either “the word’s way” (which is what wierwille taught as the true interpretation of the scriptures and you have now adopted as your way) or the highway...so either you split or they do - details of how to execute the split are sometimes worked out on the fly through a maelstrom of emotions, any dysfunctional family dynamics , the pressures of the hive-mind (TWI group-think), etc. Makes life meaningful: (Skyrider thanks for posting link on "the Destruction of Self" - I read that again - great stuff!) as you continue walking in “the greatness” of PFAL , your outlook and decision-making process get recalibrated to the TWI-mindset - what’s important to you now is what wierwille or leadership said is important; all your original hopes and dreams become morphed or hijacked into what’s really best for you and the ministry. Your purpose now is to move “the word”; as a matter of fact the only worthwhile endeavor is to move “the word” (aka - "get more people to take PFAL").

Well guess either you were not clear or I’m dense - probably a combination of the 2

Yeah but then there’s Luke 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Ok - isn’t Acts 13:33 referring to Psalm 2...which appears to be a song celebrating the king’s victory over the enemies. The resurrection is perhaps an antitype or symbol - in that like Psalm 2 is a song celebrating the victory of the Son of God...maybe along the same lines as a reigning king who finally vanquishes all the enemies over his countrymen and to the people he has proved his mettle - he truly is their king if you’re trying to prove Jesus wasn’t considered the Son of God until after he was resurrected - you may want to consider passages in the Gospels where a voice from heaven declared he was the Son of God. As far as what was the life-force in Christ’s new body or it’s origin - - I don’t know - but feel free to share what you think...anything goes here.

hmmmm....on Sonship i left off the part about in what sense ...???...- Well ok - whatever floats your boat. Feel free to clarify in what sense you’re talking about...

Guess I should ask what you think Acts 13:33 means...I can only assume - since you have debated other points I brought up - you might think his resurrection had something to do with his Sonship - but you can clarify or correct me if I’ve got it wrong...if that is what you are getting at - that only after the resurrection did he have Sonship in the true sense - then I would disagree. V33 seems to carry the idea of an already present reality being manifested for all to see...similar to Romans 1:4 - he was DECLARED (or proved) to be the son of God with power...it says declared - not made...he was the son of God from the beginning of his earthly life - as John 1:14 indicates ...and also see Isaiah 9:6 - unto us a child is BORN, unto us a SON is given... So let me know why you brought up Acts 13:33

your question about how he did miraculous things kind of puzzles me ; and makes me want to ask you what difference does it really make as to HOW Jesus Christ was able to do miraculous things before or after his resurrection ...he’s Jesus Christ! Just curious - Do you have an issue with that - or why is it so hard to believe he could do all that? I simply imagine the changes to his physical body after the resurrection were quite significant- going on the testimony in the Gospels and what Paul said in Corinthians about the new body. I assume you are familiar with those details, no? You are correct in assuming I believe in the pre-existence of Christ - as conveyed in John 1 - in the beginning was the word & etc. as far as being a hybrid - i am simply speculating what John 1:14 means by “the only begotten” the Greek is monogenes - which can mean “one of a kind” or “the one and only”. Now because it says “the word became flesh” I see a twofold entity - or hybrid - a dual nature - - Jesus Christ - who is the word - became flesh - preexistent implied from John 1:1 - - human existence implied from verse 14. What does that mean to me? Jesus Christ is everything to me! he is my Lord and Savior !!!

I wouldn’t know since I’ve never walked through walls or on water....however if I were to hazard a guess - before Christ had his resurrected body miracles could have been accomplished in any number of miraculous ways - for instance to walk on water: change the consistency of the surface water to support his weight, change the molecular weight of his body, generate some gravity-defying force, strap on Iron Man’s repulsor-jet boots (hidden under his robe of course - and he remembers to bring an extra pair for Peter too ).