waysider

Ever notice there are some familiar names that NEVER seem to come up on the threads about abuse? Names like George Jess, Ray and Vera Kaderly, and Mal George, to name just a few. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Distraction and diversion, geisha. Those are two of the key materials John favors when building a soap box.

7th corps, 10th corps, 11th corps---Do you see where I'm going with this? That's 5 corps years right there. Where was this great "spiritual awareness" they claimed to have? They watched it happen for five years (at least) and still didn't see the handwriting on the wall? More like they saw it and just didn't care. It doesn't take one ounce of "spiritual perception" to understand the severity of what was going on . It just required a little common sense and compassion. I don't think they had either----especially the latter of the two.

Without trying to sound too cynical, I pose the question: What did Wierwille ever do that could be construed as an example to follow? How about Howard Allen? Seriously, what,specifically, did they ever really do that people could pattern their lives after?

"I could use the same argument when sex abuse victims tell their stories. I could say that in India it's still possible for a husband to find his wife not pleasing and have her burned. That twi sex abuse is small stuff compared to that." Yes, you could use that argument. You would be relying on a flawed comparison, though. First, because the issue of wife abuse in India is not the topic of discussion. Even though this topic is a serious one, introducing it into a discussion of sexual abuse in The Way is a bit of a Red Herring. It's important, yes, but, not relevant. It's a distraction. Secondly, it serves little purpose other than to minimize the seriousness of what took place in The Way regarding sexual abuse. Sexual abuse in The Way was/is a very serious matter and should be treated as such, not rationalized or compared with something unrelated. Have you ever been raped, John? Men do get raped, you know. By other men. But,my guess is that you have not. Because, if you had, I don't think you would be so quick to minimize the physical pain, loss of self confidence, sense of unworthiness and mental anguish that accompanies it. I don't think you would want anyone calling it "small stuff" in comparison to anything.

I hitch hiked a lot in the '60s and saw first hand how dangerous it can be. I had a few close calls myself. So, it didn't really surprise me too much to learn of some of the tragedies that happened in TWI. What surprised me, or rather, disgusted me, was to learn how unconcerned upper management was with the whole issue of safety. When terrible things happened and were brought to their attention, they plowed ahead with their ill conceived programs, undaunted by reality.

"The Dr. is out. He'll be right back with more demented music."

Attention, all those who extol the value of the warm, fuzzy feelings you remember! The upper management of The Way did not share in your sentimentality. It was a business, geared toward one goal----generating a steady flow of suckers who were willing to increase their bottom line. Let me give that to you in a literal translation according to usage.....They didn't give a rat's azz what happened to you out there, as long as what you were doing had potential for enriching the coffers.

Way HQ is in Ohio. Wierwille spent his entire life in Ohio. Should it have come as a surprise to him that hitch hiking is illegal in most parts of Ohio and has been for decades and decades? L.E.A.D. participants were instructed to only stick their thumbs out on the on-ramps. Why? Because leadership KNEW it was illegal to hitch ON the interstate. That's right. They KNEW hitch hiking was illegal unless certain loopholes in the law were manipulated. They were thumbing their noses at the law of the land. For a supposedly Bible-centric organization, they seem to have been abysmally ignorant of the Biblical exhortation to follow the laws of the society in which one resides. Ignorant or unconcerned about following advise that was clearly written in the book they claimed to have mastered. And, when they were made aware of the tragic situations that were happening because of this policy, they coldly turned their gaze the other direction and blamed the victims, rather than accept responsibility for their flawed directives. They had less "spiritual perception" than a pet rock.

Dr. Scholl's has done more for me than both of them put together.

Creative criticism This is called a straw man fallacy, John. -------------------------------------------------------- Straw Man Fallacy Explanation A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it. ---------------------------------------------------------- No one ever said or implied it was wrong to convert the tree into firewood. Rather than address the issue raised by the poster, you created a straw man argument. Most people here are familiar with the concept. This is one of the reasons people become put off by some of the things you write. Now, if you really want people to listen to what you say and give it serious consideration, it would be in your best interest to learn to recognize when you are doing this and take messures to correct it. Of course, if you already know all this and are doing this intentionally, I wish you luck----and a durable soap box.

That would certainly fit with Wierwille's teaching of John 1:1 in PFAL. And, since we know that the source for much of what VPW taught in PFAL was BG Leonard, it only makes sense to deduce that Leonard's beliefs were along these lines, also.

Well, at least they didn't call you "Hockey Puck".

I think I read somewhere that, in the picture language of some Native American peoples, the broken arrow symbolized a call for peace.

I stand corrected. The irony is still there, however, because he wasn't willing to risk letting spontaneity take its course by remaking the class . edit: And, in retrospect, I think he just made up this silly story,like he did so many others, to toot his own horn. "Look at me, I'm sooooo spiritual, I can just reach up in Daddy's cookie jar and he tells me exactly what I need to teach." (cough)

Jackie Coogan was my Uncle Fester in the Absurd.

I have a hard time trying to read the Bible. I see some particular scripture and think about how I listened to some teacher or another get all excited about what the verse or word REALLY meant. Then I think about how that whole particular teaching was actually based on flawed research and didn't reflect the message they were trying to convey at all. Like finding out there is no Easter Bunny. Can you really make yourself believe in him again?

alfakat, Maybe I'm missing something here. I don't see anybody trying to paint ALL of them with the same paint brush. When you look at a high school year book, you have memories of the "group", but, don't you, also, consider how they've all grown in different, individual directions? Isn't that part of the attraction of face-book for many people?

VP and Howard

Reminds me of the old codger who said, "I still chase women----I just wish I could remember why."

Here's some irony. In PLAF (The Wonder Class), Wierwille talked about how he would prepare part of his Sunday sermon and then put it in his desk drawer until he worked on it again. Then, come Sunday morning, the sermon fell flat because the devil had looked at his teaching throughout the week and turned the congregation against it by Sunday morning. This was his argument for the value of spontaneity. Yet, he continually refused to re-film "the class", itself, because, he said, it couldn't be recreated. I guess he really didn't believe that silly illustration himself, now, did he?.

There was actually an aborted attempt to create a way corps prior to this. They are sometimes referred to as the "Zero Corps".

http://www.atlbible.org/1stwaycorps.cfm?Picture=1 http://www.atlbible.org/1stwaycorps.cfm?Picture=2 http://www.atlbible.org/1stwaycorps.cfm?Picture=3 http://www.atlbible.org/howardallen.htm

"Same old same old" that any other good little wayfer would have. It got damaged in a wet basement incident about fifteen years ago and I pitched it. Can't say that I've really felt any compulsion to ever replace it.