WordWolf

In this case, I think WD has a valid point. Whether or not Samson's strength returned prior to, or independently of, his invocation of God when he collapsed the temple, was not established. That Samson had SOME natural strength, I think, is reasonable. (I think he was physically strong.) That Samson had a reputation based on history, I think, is beyond question. (Everybody knew at least SOME of the stuff he'd done.) That Samson's strength was connected to the Nazarite vow, I think, is clear when reviewing the incidents with his parents and following forward. Therefore, Samson refrained from things forbidden under the Nazarite vow, like the haircuts. Samson's hair was cut. This was a violation of the conditions of the Nazarite vow. That means either Samson's enhanced strength was either withdrawn due to breaking a contract, or Samson no longer believing he HAD that strength, or refusing to ask for it, due to having the conditions broken. (Either way, the result is the same.) Samson's hair grew back. Did that mean that the vow was considered reinstated by all parties? Did the strength enhancements return on that basis? Or was the previous vow VOIDED and a NEW vow necessary for any consideration? I think the latter is MORE likely-since Samson's prayer at the end sounds like Samson is requesting a special blessing-and restoration of the strength enhancement. Whether or not Samson actually HAD the strength at the time was not guaranteed by this. Did Samson have a partial enhancement as his hair returned? I do not think the verses make a convincing case for it, nor do I think they preclude any such return. So I say the conclusions are "inconclusive", or "maybe".

So, I take it, NONE of our pundits can find anything substantive to support this beyond one man's claim that "obviously it means this"?

True. What makes it especially confusing about Roy being bumped is that-according to ck's own rules, prominently posted- the ONLY rule is to avoid cursing, and Roy NEVER curses in his posts. Therefore, the supposedly-experienced ck anticipated other possible problems, but elected to keep those OTHER rules SECRET. Either that, or ck was deceptive when insinuating he had experience as a moderator, AND made an on-the-spot decision which he immediately implemented, AND chose to make this NEW rule SECRET. Among unbelievers, that would be seen as capricious AND unfair. Roy didn't even get a "warning" about the secret rule. ========= But, hey, if that's how he wants to run his board, it is HIS board.

I find it telling that both of these doctrines seem to have no other supporters beyond people who saw twi teach them. Re: the specific spectacle, it seems to me that-even if Samson thought his supernatural strength was missing-which he may have thought, whether or not it was- he would still have been a strong man biologically. (I don't think he was a 97-pound weakling who said "Shazam" and became a long-haired superhero.) So, I expect that they would have wanted to be entertained- that's what they SAID, after all- and-as has been suggested- they wanted to see some feats of strength of some kind, or possibly even wrestling (per the Manners and Custom's books notation). I also agree about being able to believe God for anti-pervert strength, should the situation have required it. In the absolute absence of ANY information that could possibly support this idea, it seems to have been a figment of someone's imagination, which then became a doctrine.

I'm not sure that supposition follows logically. It is one possibility. Another possibility is that it relates more to entertaining the crowds than something specific to Dagon worship. "Manners and Customs of the Bible" mentioned wrestlers fighting in a cleared space for the amusement of assembled crowds before an event, in Algiers. The Algiers thing was the "floor show." For all I know, the Philistines had Samson dress in drag and do the hula. (*drums*"LUAU!")

Ok, checking the Greek... "set at nought" "exoutheneo":to despise, treat with despite. "exoudenoo":to reject with contempt, treat with scorn. Mark 9:12 is exoudenoo. Luke 23:11 is exoutheneo. Acts 4:11 is exoutheneo. Romans 14:10 is exoutheneo. Exoudenoo occurs only in Mark 9:12. Exoutheneo is rendered 'set at nought' 3 times 'despise' 6 times 'be least esteemed' one time 'contemptible' one time the "least esteemed" occurs in I Corinthians 6:4. "If then ye have judgements of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church." Anyone who reads this and thinks "least esteemed" is more properly translated "raped" should just check himself into a mental hospital. "contemptible" is in II Corinthians 10:10. Speaking of Paul, some people said... "For his letters, say they, are weighty, and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible." His speech is raped? Can't shoehorn the lunatic ramblings into this one, either. And "despise" appears in I Corinthians 1:28. "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:" God uses those things to rape the things that exist? You get the idea. "Set at nought", by any reasonable attempt to understand the text, has NOTHING to do with rape, molestation, sodomy, or anything related to that.

Thanks. Ok, let's see.. http://www.biblegateway.com The word "Italian" appears in the KJV ONCE, in Acts 10:1. Cornelius (first Gentile to become born again) was a centurion of the band called the Italian band. "Italy" comes up 4 times. Acts 18:2, Aquila & Priscilla are from Italy. Acts 27:1 & 6, Paul's a prisoner travelling there. Hebrews 13:24 The Christians in Italy said to say 'hello' for them. ==== Ok, "soldier"... appears 27 times. Matthew 8:9, the soldier who wanted Jesus to pray for his man. (I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word...) Matthew 27:26-31 "Then released he Barabbas unto them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying 'Hail, King of the Jews!' And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own rainment on him, and led him away to crucify him." Ok, they took Jesus, but they took him to a prison area, they didn't "take" him. We also see the specifics on how they "mocked" him. They did it by "mocking" him. Matthew 28:12 Soldiers were bribed to say the disciples stole Jesus' body. Mark 15:15-17 "And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified. And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called "Praetorium', and they call together the whole band. And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head," Different Gospel, same account as before- where we can see that when they "took" Jesus, they "led him away into the hall", they didn't "take" him. Luke 3:14. Soldiers ask Jesus what they should do, conduct-wise. Luke 7:8 the centurion asking for prayer for his sick man again. Luke 23:36. Soldiers mock Jesus-who is already up on the cross, and thus in public and far too high up to rape- and offer him vinegar, and said "If you're the King of the Jews, save yourself." (This is called "mocking" by most people.) Interesting-Luke omits a description of the scourging. John 19:1-3. "Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him. And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, and said 'Hail, King of the Jews!' and they smote him with their hands." John 19:23-24. The soldiers divided his rainment, and cast lots for his vesture. John 19:32 Soldiers come to break the legs of the crucified ones. John 19:34 A soldier pierces his side with a spear. ===== Acts 10:7. Cornelius addresses one of his soldiers. Acts 12:4 Soldiers guard Peter. Acts 12:6 soldiers guard Peter. Acts 12:18 soldier react to the event with Peter. Acts 21:32 & 35. Soldiers apprehend Paul, saving him from the mob. Acts 23:10. Soldiers apprehend Paul, saving him from another (allo) mob. Acts 23:31 Soldiers transport prisoner Paul. Acts 27:31-32, 42. Incidents on the ship with Paul. Acts 28:16. Paul under house arrest. II Timothy 2:3-4 Timothy is exhorted to be like a good soldier of Jesus Christ. That is ALL the usages of the word "soldier" in the New Testament KJV. That is also ALL the crucifixion accounts in all 4 Gospels. As we clearly saw, all the "mockings" were "mockings", and when they "took Jesus", they "took Jesus" somewhere, they transported a prisoner. Which most people can read with little difficulty. This tortured explanation STILL lacks merit.

So, this concept of a parent and their offspring having conjugal relations together is one you find distasteful, then. Me too. Of course, neither of us is vpw, who taught it differently to the corps. Two different posters have posted here about meetings in the corps where vpw brought up some supposed tribe in Africa (which may or may not exist), and how fathers were the initial partners of their daughters, (with all that implies) and that they taught them all about it. Another poster speculated that vpw got that from the book "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex", but got it WRONG- in that book, it says the other women in the tribe teach the young girls. If that speculation is correct (based on everything we DO know, I suspect it is correct), his brain edited what he read, and he projected into it what he WANTED it to say. He also-per one previous post- said he thought that was "beautiful", which horrified the poster at the time he said it. (For any of you who might be tempted to speculate on the practical implications of vpw holding this belief, I'd like to point out that this is one of the rare subjects that moderators have edited out, for reasons that should be clear if you think about it. So, if you post, post very carefully and don't mention victims, possible victims, or suspected victims.)

Those are the listed topics, I bet. Have you gone thru them to check if this is mentioned in passing? It could have been sandwiched in somewhere in less than a minute...

Ok, we already saw that one was just silly. This is just plain strange. For Jesus to have been tempted to sin, I can buy. For Jesus to have been tempted to sin sexually, I can buy. For Jesus to have been tempted to sin sexually in a homosexual fashion, I can buy (but it's technically speculation). If Jesus was raped, he wasn't "tempted"-he was a victim. If it becomes a matter of "he had to experience all sins to absolve them", then that means that his brief ministry included all sorts of perversions and crimes that he personally experienced, even if he was only an unwilling victim of them and not a willing participant. Hey, be CONSISTENT in your claim. Therefore, either homosexual rape has NOTHING to do with the account, by that reasoning, or hundreds and hundreds of other things best left unmentioned are included by the SAME reasoning.

A) So VPW DID TEACH THIS. Good to know. B) "set at naught".... Appears in Mark 9:12, and Luke 23:11 referring to Jesus. Also used in Acts 4:11 "This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner." Which references Psalm 118:22 "The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." Acts 19:27, the union meeting. "So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth." Romans 14:10. "But why doest thou judge thy brother? Or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ." I haven't even opened the Greek yet, and it looks like his claim lacks merit for serious consideration.

Good to know. What I REALLY want to know MORE than "did lcm teach this?" which you confirmed and I wasn't sure of, is "did vpw teach this?" Offhand, did lcm use any explanation we didn't cover, that you remember him using? (Which, of course, is no guarantee it's EVERYTHING he said, of course.)

IIRC, they've previously said that people have left, but on their own volition- that there was NEVER a "mark and avoid".

Ok. Well, since the Septuagint was a Greek TRANSLATION of the OT from the Hebrew, we can skip that and go straight to the Hebrew. Which I just did. (Scroll up if you missed the digression, any of you.) Therefore, what the words meant in the OT English, Septuagint, Spanish, Italian, Latin, and Klingon are interesting, but lacking in authority. (Not that I have anything against RD-I'd suspect he's not teaching this one any more unless I had proof he WAS.) Good idea.I'll dig that out later, in the interest of completeness, unless someone beats me to it. (PLEASE beat me to it.) Feh. Can someone break this deadlock, then? Was it on the audio or not? I know the video claimed Peter denied Jesus "three times three times" or NINE times, whereas JCOP makes a case for SIX denials.

The Noah thing was not "the unkindest cut". It's mentioned here: Genesis 9:2-23. (http://www.biblegateway.com) It says that Ham "saw [Noah's] nakedness". What does it mean? Well, read Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 in their entirety, and you'll see. Leviticus 20:11a is the short form. "And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness:" (Or Leviticus 18:8.) So, Ham didn't literally do anything to Mr Noah-he did it to Mrs Noah. Now, the reason Canaan, son of Ham, was cursed becomes a little clearer. (His father was Ham, and his mother...) I wanted to get that covered also. In case anyone's curious, that was covered by one of the corps in one of the "gmir" articles (which stopped around the time PoP was read) and that's where I saw this taught. Further, I lent that article to a guy who had NO connection to twi, and was Jewish-and-when he gave it back, he agreed with the conclusions. We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

The problem here, of course, is that the Bible was not given in King James English. Thus, taking the Hebrew word "fill", rendering it "replenish", then ignoring the Hebrew word completely and making a doctrine around the specific meaning of the word "replenish", is wrong, error, and what vpw would have called "private interpretation." (For those who want to follow along without a Bible, you can use http://www.biblegateway.com ) In this case, it is true that the word in the King James "sport" CAN refer to conjugal relations. (Genesis 26:8.) However, it also doesn't sometimes (Proverbs 10:23, II Peter 2:13). That's all a DIVERSION, since all that's based on ENGLISH. Therefore, we check the Hebrew. I've found that, when checking the meaning of a word in Hebrew or Greek, a good thing to do is to find the word in that language, look at the places it's used to mean the same thing (in my trusty concordance) AND to go to the back of the concordance and look at all the OTHER words it was translated into, and the places that is used. Then I know what it meant in the Bible whether or NOT I can read Hebrew. Now, the chapter on Samson uses the Hebrew word "tsachaq" in one verse, and "sachaq" in the other, interchangeably. Now, "sachaq" is also translated "sport" in Proverbs 26:19, where it certainly does NOT mean conjugal relations. "Tsachaq" is used in Genesis 26:8, where it might mean conjugal relations, and I think a strong case can be made for it in the general. So, so far it's about even. Now I check the other usages of both words. Sachaq is used to mean deride have in derision laugh make sport mock rejoice scorn be in sport make sport play rejoice mocker them that make merry laugh to scorn The last one is II Chronicles 30:10. "So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them." OBVIOUSLY not conjugal relations. Feel free to hammer that across by comparing the other usages for yourself. For fun,you can look at the coognate "tsechoq", which seems to never carry a meaning of conjugal relations. === Now, let's see, "tsachaq"... laugh make sport mock play sport Genesis 17:17, 18:12, 18:13, 18:15 and 21:6 all have "tsachaq" translated "laugh", and 21:6 has the word "laugh" twice- "Sarah said 'God has brought me laughter [tsechoq], and everyone who hears about this wiill laugh [tsachaq] with me." All of these usages involve the physical laughter involved when either Abraham or Sarah laughed at the thought of having a child when they thought it was impossible. Therefore, I conclude that the usages of the word "sachaq" or "tsachaq" mean to scorn, laugh, make a laughingstock, be silly and -by far the most rare usage- conjugal relations. Therefore, not only does this not INDICATE Samson was molested, the overwhelming likelihood is that he was NOT- he was mocked and humiliated. If anything else MUST be read into it, the verse MUST be clearer on the subject, because one has to go far afield to try to support it. No verse says "here, this is what it means", neither in the verse itself, nor the context/surrounding verses, and the overwhelming usages of the term BEFORE say otherwise. IIRC, "all Scripture" supposedly "explains itself" those 3 ways. Scripture remains silent on whether this word meant exactly this here. As vpw himself said, "Where the Word of God remains silent, he that speaks is a fool." Why he chose to speak on this subject where the Word of God remains silent cannot be told with absolute accuracy. However, using his own rules, the verses do NOT mean that, and he is judged a fool for forcing the meaning onto them. I STILL can't find a verse that MIGHT support this meaning. Anyone?

Ok, I just reviewed all 4 Gospels again, from the garden of Gethsemane before the mob arrives, until after Jesus is crucified. If there's a verse in ANY gospel that even SUGGESTS it, I can't find it. The CLOSEST I can get is the "mocking", which is the same conclusion I came to the other day when I did my FIRST search. If one were willing to completely rewrite the verses, one might try saying that when Pilate told the crowd he was going to have Jesus "chastized", then let him go, that this was supposedly an expected part of the process. However, one not only would have to rewrite the meaning of the word "chastize", but would then have to claim that Pilate told a crowd "He hasn't committed any crimes. So, I'll have him raped and then released," and that's beyond silly. So, I can't find a single verse that can be squeezed to support it.

They were scared of more than "continuing the line". Genesis 19 shows destruction of city after city, and Lot and his daughters went and hid in a cave in the mountains. They thought it was the end of the world, and they were the last 3 people ALIVE. Genesis 19:31 (KJV) "And the firstborn said unto the younger, 'Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:' " Doesn't mean they were RIGHT, but it's a bit more understandable that someone might do something that extreme if they thought the situation was that desperate. And I came to the same conclusion about their morals that you did. My OPINION is that Lot lied thru his teeth when he addressing that mob and claimed his daughters were, um, 'virtuous.' Of course, this is a digression from the main subject. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled topic.

Bingo. I took it on the Beta video tapes. (It was never on VHS-at least hq never authorized it.) So, it was on the audio version, which was a prototype of the video version. That explains where lcm got it, and the others. That's exactly how I see that. Thank YOU, Roy. That was half my question right answered right there in one post. So did I. The "Jesus was raped" thing was from lcm in the early 80s, possibly also the 70s. He mentioned it in his 2-tape rant against homosexuality, "Victorious Unity in One God." (There was about 5 minutes on unity, and something over an hour on homosexuality.)

This topic is NOT meant to mock a serious subject. It's ONLY meant to examine specific claims made in twi. Specifically, that Samson and Jesus were molested, and the accounts of both were included in the Bible. As to the Samson account, the verses used to justify this were Judges 16:25 and 27, when the Philistines had captured Samson. Judges 16:25 (KJV) "And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, 'Call for Samson, that he may make us sport.' And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport: and they set him between the pillars." Judges 16:27 "Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about 3,000 men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport." The phrase "made sport", here, I was told, meant that the Philistines molested him. I was told this as a partial explanation of a DIFFERENT doctrine. I questioned the claim-made by lcm and others- (lcm did one of his 'you'd know this of you worked The Word' on this)- that Jesus was molested when he was captured and tortured. IIRC, these would be the verses used to explain this one... Matthew 27:29 (KJV) "And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!" Matthew 27:31 "And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own rainment on him, and led him away to crucify him." Mark 15:17-20 "And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, And began to salute him, 'Hail, King of the Jews!' And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him." Luke 23:11 "And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate." Now, it seems to me that the clear and evident meaning in the verses of these accounts is that both men were beaten and laughed at and made a spectacle of- but to read into EITHER that this included any kind of sexual contact is to insert a meaning where it does not exist. It is what vpw called "private interpretation." Can any of you logically find his meaning in ANY of those accounts? Can any of you find a commentary that supports it? ======== Separate question. I know lcm taught these. Does anyone here remember vpw teaching them? It's all well and good to SUPPOSE that vpw taught lcm this- just as he taught him the "swear" thing- but I'd like at least one person to sing out and say "yes-I heard vpw teach this, really." Thank you again for your cooperation. (And no, this is the last question of this sort that I have at this time. The OTHER question made me think of this one.)

So it's something like the secular branch of the Franciscan order? No formal vows, you train and you just do your best? Or do orders come down thru Opus Dei in specific things? I don't mean "read Acts this week", or "pray for the hurricane survivors", I mean stuff like "proceed to the next town over..."

In other words, the IVP BBC is not taking sides on this one. "Undoubtedly"? I get suspicious when a minority position is irrefutable or unable to be doubted. That usually means that further scrutiny shows it is an unwarranted assumption that someone's trying to avoid defending by claiming it's unassailable. I noticed that he can make no stronger case than anyone for the opposing POV, and they didn't say theirs was "unassailable..." So, he's supporting the minority position-no "grab" was involved. Has anyone found support for vpw's and Victor Hamilton's position other than "this undoubtedly means that"?

Well, that information is all part of the "one possibility." Either the guy swearing did the grab, or he didn't do the grab. So far, that argued AGAINST the grab.

Honestly, it's been on one of my "back burners" for some time now. It came up in a discussion here quite some time ago, and that wasn't the right time to question whether or not it ever happened. However, something about it was particularly bugging me today (no idea WHAT, but SOMETHING) so I gave it my shot, then submitted the question for everyone else. For that matter, it reminded me of something else, but one question at a time. What??? Maybe someone's spoofed my address. Check the GSC'ers who HAVE your address, AND have mine, and have them do a virus test. Can't be many of them-few have MINE.

I think you confused this account with the OTHER account where he talked about those evil "establishment" ministers. The Paul was a puh-vert one, he stood up, said 'shut up!" and left. End of story. The OTHER one was where he AND HIS FAMILY attended a church that had a guest speaker. The guest speaker basically said the Bible was full of fiction and so on.. His son (Don) had more sense than he did, since he excused himself not long into the sermon, saying he couldnt sit and listen to this. Afterwards, vpw and mrs got up to leave. An usher or whoever stopped him, and said they were sorry he had to leave. vpw supposedly replied "Sir, it has been a DISGRACE for me to have been here today. Then I gave him one of my brochures for power for abundant living." Two different stories. I'd agree on that...