It is unrealistic to expect to come into a forum, address a situation that you personally were never in, concerning a person that you personally have never met....and call the people who WERE in the situation, who DID know the man liars.....and not expect people to respond to rudeness.
I never called any one a liar except perhaps you. And if you DO want me to look at your "evidence", insulting me is probably not a good approach. And tell a few of your friends not to fantasize about what they would like to do to my daughter under the guise of "this is what VPW would have done", speaking of perverts.
What WON`T you do to ignore the evidence and confuse the issue?
Number ONE Sunesis is a girl .....
Number TWO the only fanatsizing going on there was in YOUR mind.....she simply related the mo of vp. YOU are the one who made that into something ugly and perverted...
How about being offended with the freaking pervert that COMMITTED these atrocities...instead if getting your panties in a twist over the folks that are telling what the freak did to them????
Number THREE....this is what happened to MANY mens teen aged daughters at the hands of vpw...but hey I understand...as long as it wasn`t your kiddo,I suppose then it doesn`t count.
You cannot deal with the truth so you have to make up lies about everybody else in order to live within the parameters of your tiny little universe...
Sorry John. Struck a nerve did it? Well, understand this: That was VPW's very graphic fantasy of what he would like to do to me, and YOUR daughter.
But, of course, you just can't believe he would think or say anything like that. Just be glad she was never in the corps and got to watch the beastiality videos with him. I'm sure you would have loved that.
Deal with it. Wake up to reality.
Your glorious idol you worship is of the wrong god, masquerading as a minister of light and righteousness.
Don't like it? Those were his exact words to me in the motorcoach. Repeated twice, in case I missed it the first time. You need to read my posts more carefully.
Its interesting how his sexual abuses don't bother you in the least, UNLESS, it involves one of your children.
Just the thought of it makes you sick, doesn't it?
So, we agree, VP was a sick puppy, a sexual pervert wasn't he?
I'm beginning to think that Jean and John are enjoying stirring things up around here. They respond to logic and common sense with inane, disjointed remarks that insense others. There are no real discussions with them, no exchange of ideas, or even respectful responses from them...just jabs, insults, and jumps to illogical conclusions. This, IMHO, is troll-like behaviour...baiting posters to watch the flurry of activity while sitting back and snickering as the GSCers' responses roll in. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
What WON`T you do to ignore the evidence and confuse the issue?
Number ONE Sunesis is a girl .....
Number TWO the only fanatsizing going on there was in YOUR mind.....she simply related the mo of vp. YOU are the one who made that into something ugly and perverted...
How about being offended with the freaking pervert that COMMITTED these atrocities...instead if getting your panties in a twist over the folks that are telling what the freak did to them????
Number THREE....this is what happened to MANY mens teen aged daughters at the hands of vpw...but hey I understand...as long as it wasn`t your kiddo,I suppose then it doesn`t count.
You cannot deal with the truth so you have to make up lies about everybody else in order to live within the parameters of your tiny little universe...
As far as I know someone can be a girl AND a pervert. So, the alleged MO of VPW wasn't ugly and perverted? She wasn't just relating her own alleged experience. She was posing a situation that isn't even available since my daughter wasn't born until VPW had been dead for 5 years.
I'm beginning to think that Jean and John are enjoying stirring things up around here. They respond to logic and common sense with inane, disjointed remarks that insense others. There are no real discussions with them, no exchange of ideas, or even respectful responses from them...just jabs, insults, and jumps to illogical conclusions. This, IMHO, is troll-like behaviour...baiting posters to watch the flurry of activity while sitting back and snickering as the GSCers' responses roll in. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
That's why your screen name is listener, and not looker. We're just posting our opinions and we aren't interested in your power for abundant bashing class.
That's why your screen name is listener, and not looker. We're just posting our opinions and we aren't interested in your power for abundant bashing class.
And with that response you prove my statement to be true.
I'm beginning to think that Jean and John are enjoying stirring things up around here. They respond to logic and common sense with inane, disjointed remarks that insense others. There are no real discussions with them, no exchange of ideas, or even respectful responses from them...just jabs, insults, and jumps to illogical conclusions. This, IMHO, is troll-like behaviour...baiting posters to watch the flurry of activity while sitting back and snickering as the GSCers' responses roll in. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
We're not trying to stir any thing up. This is a thread about the GOOD things VPW did for TWI. Sunesis, Wordwolf, and Rascal have nothing to add to a thread on that subject. Maybe if they got honest, they'd do what Greasy Tech did and leave.
BTW, They are NOT trying to convince me with logic and facts. They're trying to inflame our emotions with a hypothetical post using our daughter as bait, hoping we'll get so angry that we'll lose sight of the facts and just respond emotionally, "By God if that SOB ever did that to MY daughter, I'd wring his neck and boil him in hot oil. Death would be too good for him. I'd, I'd, I'd kill him one very painful way, and then I'd bring back to life so I could kill him another very painful way." That's the response they're hoping to provoke, and it might very well be true. My daughter is very precious to me and I guard her very carefully, but she is not really relevant to this discussion; VPW was dead for 5 years before she was born.
As far as I know someone can be a girl AND a pervert.
This has nothing to do with whether a female poster would like to use a male organ
they don't have on a female they don't know. John made a claim of this.
When someone posted vpw's ugly and perverted MO, and was a girl,
John's refusal to admit vpw did something bad was phrased as averting his gaze from
a report of "this is what vpw did to others and would do to your daughter"
and labelling it
"fantasize about what they would like to do to my daughter under the guise of "this is what VPW would have done", speaking of perverts."
Those without dysfunctional thinking patterns, or avoidance issues, or a personal stake in
defending vpw, can see that this would NOT be such a report if that poster is a woman....
since a woman wanting to use an imaginary body-part is more than a little silly.
What the other posted did was
"she simply related the mo of vp. YOU are the one who made that into something ugly and perverted..."
The reason this produces outrage here-as it would anyplace people aren't struggling to
shield vpw from his well-earned blame- is rather simple and has already been stated.
"How about being offended with the freaking pervert that COMMITTED these atrocities...instead if getting your panties in a twist over the folks that are telling what the freak did to them????
Number THREE....this is what happened to MANY mens teen aged daughters at the hands of vpw...but hey I understand...as long as it wasn`t your kiddo,I suppose then it doesn`t count."
So, the alleged MO of VPW wasn't ugly and perverted?
So you admit the scenario-
which was the STANDARD MO of vpw, what he did MANY, MANY times as reported by
MANY, MANY women who are total strangers to each other,
is ugly and perverted?
*studies* Actually, you carefully phrased yourself to avoid admitting that it was
actually ugly and perverted, while avoiding admitting that MANY, MANY victims
came forth and said this is what vpw did.
Clever-allows you to maintain a position of zero blame for the serial rapist.
She wasn't just relating her own alleged experience. She was posing a situation that isn't even available since my daughter wasn't born until VPW had been dead for 5 years.
The scenario was her own, and that of MANY, MANY victims.
All she did was swap in your daughter instead of the MANY, MANY women who
were "the right" (or "the wrong") age when vpw was on his crime-spree.
Can you even admit as a hypothetical that if ANY man raped your daughter under
ANY excuse- using force, drugs, or any other coercion- that you'd think it was wrong of
him to do so, and might actually CARE that he did it?
I`ll tell you what it may not have been YOUR daughter...but they were certainly dearly beloved children of God......GOD`s kids that it happened to, time and again....and fortunately HE doesn`t minimalise the outrage and evil perpetrated against one of HIS daughters by an evil sob in HIS name.
I think that you guys are heartless and have no compassion for what was endured by your sisters and brothers. You want simply to defend the evil perpetrator. That is disturbing.
We're not trying to stir any thing up. This is a thread about the GOOD things VPW did for TWI. Sunesis, Wordwolf, and Rascal have nothing to add to a thread on that subject.
If you were paying attention, and not just focusing on
justifying a worldview that venerates vpw no matter what he did,
you'd see I added to the subject ALREADY.
But, of course, even admitting THAT interferes with a blanket label of all my posts,
which is necessary to avert one's gaze from the substance in them.
Maybe if they got honest, they'd do what Greasy Tech did and leave.
Since I am not a MODERATOR, I'm free to post without worrying whether or not anything but
the substance of my posts will interfere with the free exchange of ideas, and swaying the
opinion of any reader. Thus, my posts only carry THEIR OWN weight, and any reader can
consider their content on their own merits.
BTW, They are NOT trying to convince me with logic and facts.
Actually, the logic and facts was all the eyewitness accounts of the VICTIMS,
and the CONFESSIONS OF THE PARTICIPANTS AND THOSE WHO KNEW AND WERE
ASHAMED THEY DIDN'T STOP IT.
But, of course, you don't care about those...
They're trying to inflame our emotions with a hypothetical post using our daughter as bait, hoping we'll get so angry that we'll lose sight of the facts and just respond emotionally, "By God if that SOB ever did that to MY daughter, I'd wring his neck and boil him in hot oil. Death would be too good for him. I'd, I'd, I'd kill him one very painful way, and then I'd bring back to life so I could kill him another very painful way."
The scenario is only BARELY hypothetical.
For a lot of women, that's PERSONAL HISTORY.
Since you care not that vpw attacked THEM, since it touches you not as a non-participant who
knew nothing of it and don't have their blood on your hands, the question was raised-
what if he HAD victimized someone you actually can summon an ounce of compassion for?
Amazing that you're saying that you STILL would be more interested-
had it been a close loved-one of yourself-
to say responding would actually be "losing sight of the facts."
The facts would be "he raped my daughter." "I respected him before she reported he raped her."
The only questions are: "Is my daughter claiming to me someone raped her because she is lying?"
and "If I believe her, what do I do about it?"
So, there's more emotion that someone would claim vpw raped them-
attack the one reporting it!-
than to the man who was reported as having performed the rape-
"that the ministry be not blamed!"
That's dedication for you. That's single-mindedness for you.
That's fricking inhuman is what it is.....
And if you actually WOULD attack a family member for reporting their rape
by vpw, well, all I can say is,
you wouldn't be the first.......
That's the response they're hoping to provoke, and it might very well be true. My daughter is very precious to me and I guard her very carefully, but she is not really relevant to this discussion; VPW was dead for 5 years before she was born.
Wait-
so, you're saying, that, just as a hypothetical,
if you raised her as a member of, say, the "Wheat Tares Church of Sheboygan" (I made that up)
while you both were members,
and she came to you, reporting that the head of the denomination raped her,
that you actually might care?
That would actually add something to the discussion.....
I`ll tell you what it may not have been YOUR daughter...but they were certainly dearly beloved children of God......GOD`s kids that it happened to, time and again....and fortunately HE doesn`t minimalise the outrage and evil perpetrated against one of HIS daughters by an evil sob in HIS name.
I think that you guys are heartless and have no compassion for what was endured by your sisters and brothers. You want simply to defend the evil perpetrator. That is disturbing.
Your own behavior is only damaging the case you want to make.
I don't understand why you guys keep responding and feeding these trolls... If someone decides to be blind and stupid let them be so. Nobody said you had to be smart to take pfal.... It only took some smarts to recognize the scam and to see things as the were, not as we should choose to see them. Its pretty clear that these 2 guys cannot afford to see things the way they really were. Its tough to acknowlege that you've been wrong and wasted tons of time...Their world would fall apart if they admitted the truth.
You are right, way2much. I'm done playing their game of bait and switch. If they were willing to have an intelligent, civil, discussion, good, I'd participate.
Until then, I'm ignoring them and their foolishness. I'll respond to the others in this thread.
Let him that is foolish be foolish.. The bottom line is that the word says we must measure our leaders against the qualities of a leader listed in the Bible. Only a fool could say that Wierwille was a MOG when measured against these guidelines. They even admit that he STOLE work from others. THe last I heard ... thou shalt not steal was still part of gods word.
I don't understand why you guys keep responding and feeding these trolls... If someone decides to be blind and stupid let them be so.
As adamant as they are, clueless and conscienseless, they do serve a purpose. I think the opinions and demeanors expressed are representative of the kind of crap we had to endure in twi.
Like Howey Yuck Allen said, no man is "useless". They can always be held out as a bad example.
My daughter isn't either, Jean, because I don't have one.
The scenario being discussed is hypothetical.
Just for a brief time, imagine youself to be the mother(hypothetically) of one of these woman who have come forth and stated their experiences. Remember the old saying----------"Walk a mile in my shoes"? You have come, rather strongly, to the defense of your real life daughter. I suspect your reactions to this type of activity, as a parent, would be highly charged with outrage. Am I wrong to suppose this? I hope not.
Mr. Hammeroni-------It would seem that even Mr. Allen was not beyond a bit of "borrowing" himself. That is actually a very famous quote that predates Howard. It was spoken by someone who actually had attained a high level of esteem beyond the cornfields of "Ahiya".
While it may not be so bad to use a famous quote that seems to fit the circumstance, it's definetly not cool to claim it as ones' own much less allow people to think it may have been Divinely inspired.
Mr. Hammeroni-------It would seem that even Mr. Allen was not beyond a bit of "borrowing" himself. That is actually a very famous quote that predates Howard. It was spoken by someone who actually had attained a high level of esteem beyond the cornfields of "Ahiya".
While it may not be so bad to use a famous quote that seems to fit the circumstance, it's definetly not cool to claim it as ones' own much less allow people to think it may have been Divinely inspired.
No kidding,
Growing up in twi, I thought so many sayings originated in twi. (much like I thought the doctrines did too)
I turn on the television now and see a minister referring to the Bible as "The Word." People today still claim VPW is the originator of that saying.
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johniam
This is jeaniam
I never called any one a liar except perhaps you. And if you DO want me to look at your "evidence", insulting me is probably not a good approach. And tell a few of your friends not to fantasize about what they would like to do to my daughter under the guise of "this is what VPW would have done", speaking of perverts.
Edited by johniamLink to comment
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rascal
What WON`T you do to ignore the evidence and confuse the issue?
Number ONE Sunesis is a girl .....
Number TWO the only fanatsizing going on there was in YOUR mind.....she simply related the mo of vp. YOU are the one who made that into something ugly and perverted...
How about being offended with the freaking pervert that COMMITTED these atrocities...instead if getting your panties in a twist over the folks that are telling what the freak did to them????
Number THREE....this is what happened to MANY mens teen aged daughters at the hands of vpw...but hey I understand...as long as it wasn`t your kiddo,I suppose then it doesn`t count.
You cannot deal with the truth so you have to make up lies about everybody else in order to live within the parameters of your tiny little universe...
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Sunesis
Sorry John. Struck a nerve did it? Well, understand this: That was VPW's very graphic fantasy of what he would like to do to me, and YOUR daughter.
But, of course, you just can't believe he would think or say anything like that. Just be glad she was never in the corps and got to watch the beastiality videos with him. I'm sure you would have loved that.
Deal with it. Wake up to reality.
Your glorious idol you worship is of the wrong god, masquerading as a minister of light and righteousness.
Don't like it? Those were his exact words to me in the motorcoach. Repeated twice, in case I missed it the first time. You need to read my posts more carefully.
Its interesting how his sexual abuses don't bother you in the least, UNLESS, it involves one of your children.
Just the thought of it makes you sick, doesn't it?
So, we agree, VP was a sick puppy, a sexual pervert wasn't he?
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Listener
I'm beginning to think that Jean and John are enjoying stirring things up around here. They respond to logic and common sense with inane, disjointed remarks that insense others. There are no real discussions with them, no exchange of ideas, or even respectful responses from them...just jabs, insults, and jumps to illogical conclusions. This, IMHO, is troll-like behaviour...baiting posters to watch the flurry of activity while sitting back and snickering as the GSCers' responses roll in. That's what it looks like to me, anyway.
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Jeaniam
As far as I know someone can be a girl AND a pervert. So, the alleged MO of VPW wasn't ugly and perverted? She wasn't just relating her own alleged experience. She was posing a situation that isn't even available since my daughter wasn't born until VPW had been dead for 5 years.
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johniam
That's why your screen name is listener, and not looker. We're just posting our opinions and we aren't interested in your power for abundant bashing class.
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Listener
And with that response you prove my statement to be true.
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Jeaniam
We're not trying to stir any thing up. This is a thread about the GOOD things VPW did for TWI. Sunesis, Wordwolf, and Rascal have nothing to add to a thread on that subject. Maybe if they got honest, they'd do what Greasy Tech did and leave.
BTW, They are NOT trying to convince me with logic and facts. They're trying to inflame our emotions with a hypothetical post using our daughter as bait, hoping we'll get so angry that we'll lose sight of the facts and just respond emotionally, "By God if that SOB ever did that to MY daughter, I'd wring his neck and boil him in hot oil. Death would be too good for him. I'd, I'd, I'd kill him one very painful way, and then I'd bring back to life so I could kill him another very painful way." That's the response they're hoping to provoke, and it might very well be true. My daughter is very precious to me and I guard her very carefully, but she is not really relevant to this discussion; VPW was dead for 5 years before she was born.
Edited by JeaniamLink to comment
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WordWolf
This has nothing to do with whether a female poster would like to use a male organ
they don't have on a female they don't know. John made a claim of this.
When someone posted vpw's ugly and perverted MO, and was a girl,
John's refusal to admit vpw did something bad was phrased as averting his gaze from
a report of "this is what vpw did to others and would do to your daughter"
and labelling it
"fantasize about what they would like to do to my daughter under the guise of "this is what VPW would have done", speaking of perverts."
Those without dysfunctional thinking patterns, or avoidance issues, or a personal stake in
defending vpw, can see that this would NOT be such a report if that poster is a woman....
since a woman wanting to use an imaginary body-part is more than a little silly.
What the other posted did was
"she simply related the mo of vp. YOU are the one who made that into something ugly and perverted..."
The reason this produces outrage here-as it would anyplace people aren't struggling to
shield vpw from his well-earned blame- is rather simple and has already been stated.
"How about being offended with the freaking pervert that COMMITTED these atrocities...instead if getting your panties in a twist over the folks that are telling what the freak did to them????
Number THREE....this is what happened to MANY mens teen aged daughters at the hands of vpw...but hey I understand...as long as it wasn`t your kiddo,I suppose then it doesn`t count."
So you admit the scenario-which was the STANDARD MO of vpw, what he did MANY, MANY times as reported by
MANY, MANY women who are total strangers to each other,
is ugly and perverted?
*studies* Actually, you carefully phrased yourself to avoid admitting that it was
actually ugly and perverted, while avoiding admitting that MANY, MANY victims
came forth and said this is what vpw did.
Clever-allows you to maintain a position of zero blame for the serial rapist.
The scenario was her own, and that of MANY, MANY victims.
All she did was swap in your daughter instead of the MANY, MANY women who
were "the right" (or "the wrong") age when vpw was on his crime-spree.
Can you even admit as a hypothetical that if ANY man raped your daughter under
ANY excuse- using force, drugs, or any other coercion- that you'd think it was wrong of
him to do so, and might actually CARE that he did it?
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rascal
I`ll tell you what it may not have been YOUR daughter...but they were certainly dearly beloved children of God......GOD`s kids that it happened to, time and again....and fortunately HE doesn`t minimalise the outrage and evil perpetrated against one of HIS daughters by an evil sob in HIS name.
I think that you guys are heartless and have no compassion for what was endured by your sisters and brothers. You want simply to defend the evil perpetrator. That is disturbing.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
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WordWolf
If you were paying attention, and not just focusing on
justifying a worldview that venerates vpw no matter what he did,
you'd see I added to the subject ALREADY.
But, of course, even admitting THAT interferes with a blanket label of all my posts,
which is necessary to avert one's gaze from the substance in them.
Since I am not a MODERATOR, I'm free to post without worrying whether or not anything butthe substance of my posts will interfere with the free exchange of ideas, and swaying the
opinion of any reader. Thus, my posts only carry THEIR OWN weight, and any reader can
consider their content on their own merits.
Actually, the logic and facts was all the eyewitness accounts of the VICTIMS,
and the CONFESSIONS OF THE PARTICIPANTS AND THOSE WHO KNEW AND WERE
ASHAMED THEY DIDN'T STOP IT.
But, of course, you don't care about those...
The scenario is only BARELY hypothetical.For a lot of women, that's PERSONAL HISTORY.
Since you care not that vpw attacked THEM, since it touches you not as a non-participant who
knew nothing of it and don't have their blood on your hands, the question was raised-
what if he HAD victimized someone you actually can summon an ounce of compassion for?
Amazing that you're saying that you STILL would be more interested-
had it been a close loved-one of yourself-
to say responding would actually be "losing sight of the facts."
The facts would be "he raped my daughter." "I respected him before she reported he raped her."
The only questions are: "Is my daughter claiming to me someone raped her because she is lying?"
and "If I believe her, what do I do about it?"
So, there's more emotion that someone would claim vpw raped them-
attack the one reporting it!-
than to the man who was reported as having performed the rape-
"that the ministry be not blamed!"
That's dedication for you. That's single-mindedness for you.
That's fricking inhuman is what it is.....
And if you actually WOULD attack a family member for reporting their rape
by vpw, well, all I can say is,
you wouldn't be the first.......
Wait-
so, you're saying, that, just as a hypothetical,
if you raised her as a member of, say, the "Wheat Tares Church of Sheboygan" (I made that up)
while you both were members,
and she came to you, reporting that the head of the denomination raped her,
that you actually might care?
That would actually add something to the discussion.....
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Jeaniam
My daughter is not relevant to this disussion.
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Jeaniam
Your own behavior is only damaging the case you want to make.
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Listener
No, Jean, you continue to prove what I said in post #57.
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Oakspear
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way2much
I don't understand why you guys keep responding and feeding these trolls... If someone decides to be blind and stupid let them be so. Nobody said you had to be smart to take pfal.... It only took some smarts to recognize the scam and to see things as the were, not as we should choose to see them. Its pretty clear that these 2 guys cannot afford to see things the way they really were. Its tough to acknowlege that you've been wrong and wasted tons of time...Their world would fall apart if they admitted the truth.
toodles
Dave
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Listener
You are right, way2much. I'm done playing their game of bait and switch. If they were willing to have an intelligent, civil, discussion, good, I'd participate.
Until then, I'm ignoring them and their foolishness. I'll respond to the others in this thread.
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way2much
Let him that is foolish be foolish.. The bottom line is that the word says we must measure our leaders against the qualities of a leader listed in the Bible. Only a fool could say that Wierwille was a MOG when measured against these guidelines. They even admit that he STOLE work from others. THe last I heard ... thou shalt not steal was still part of gods word.
toodles
dave
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excathedra
hi sunesis
where is your post referring to veepee ?
the graphic fantasy ?
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Ham
As adamant as they are, clueless and conscienseless, they do serve a purpose. I think the opinions and demeanors expressed are representative of the kind of crap we had to endure in twi.
Like Howey Yuck Allen said, no man is "useless". They can always be held out as a bad example.
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Listener
I like that perspective, Ham. Thanks for the insight.
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waysider
My daughter isn't either, Jean, because I don't have one.
The scenario being discussed is hypothetical.
Just for a brief time, imagine youself to be the mother(hypothetically) of one of these woman who have come forth and stated their experiences. Remember the old saying----------"Walk a mile in my shoes"? You have come, rather strongly, to the defense of your real life daughter. I suspect your reactions to this type of activity, as a parent, would be highly charged with outrage. Am I wrong to suppose this? I hope not.
Mr. Hammeroni-------It would seem that even Mr. Allen was not beyond a bit of "borrowing" himself. That is actually a very famous quote that predates Howard. It was spoken by someone who actually had attained a high level of esteem beyond the cornfields of "Ahiya".
While it may not be so bad to use a famous quote that seems to fit the circumstance, it's definetly not cool to claim it as ones' own much less allow people to think it may have been Divinely inspired.
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Jeaniam
I said that about the alleged plagiarism and ONLY the alleged plagiarism.
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Bolshevik
No kidding,
Growing up in twi, I thought so many sayings originated in twi. (much like I thought the doctrines did too)
I turn on the television now and see a minister referring to the Bible as "The Word." People today still claim VPW is the originator of that saying.
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