God blessed David for Isreal's sake, and David knew it. I think these verses just show how God is always at work for His people.
If Wierwille had not stole from other ministers, might those men's ministries have gone on to save even more?
My folks just now told me that if it weren't for twi, they wouldn't have met and I wouldn't have been born. As if that justifies any wrong-doing by twi. Whoopee I told them. If God wants something to happen, it will happen.
Maybe in a past life he was Cyrus, who knows.. now a "king" without a cause.
:)
Maybe God wanted the world to have nicer rugs.
When push comes to shove, that's pretty much the truth of the matter, no matter who He has to go through, He'll find a way to accomplish his purposes.
Lone Wolf
Then why do some so addamently defend twi? It's trash. People see it does more harm than good, and defend it. Why? Why is it so important to turn this ministry around?
Societal approved sex can be a god to some people, and other people can embrace a god of societal recognition that copyrights entail. Some people love BOTH of these false gods.
For those who operate under the umbrella of these gods, their regard for what is a sin against these gods (and what these gods represent) is that such sin is totally unforgivable. LoneWolf, these people cannot be reached with your reasonable appeal. Their gods won't allow it.
I see some value in civilized, loving, and thoughtful sexual practices and customs, and I also see some value in academic and marketplace copyrights. However, I see GREAT value in masterfully absorbing the final product, written PFAL, that God produced for us grads by the hand of VPW along with his accomplished team of editors.
We could add Balaam, Saul, David, Solomon to the list of sinners with whom God worked, as I have here often.
VPW admitted to have not risen up to the fullness of what the PFAL revelations teach, but that doesn’t mean WE can’t manifest that fullness, as we drop our false gods, and as we seriously look at that written final product of VPW’s legacy.
As you know, I believe that regardless of how whacked VPW may have gotten, there was a time when his ministry was helping people and getting people saved.
Some people believe that because he plagiarized and scandalized women that his entire ministry was a sham and never had God in it.
In the OT, we know that Isaiah prophesied of the coming of Cryus the Persian about 200 years before he actually arrived.
Isaiah 44:28-45:5
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid."'
45:1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD, the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,
I was studying this just the other day and was quite taken. Here is a pagan king, and God is empowering him to conquer nations. Why? Because God needed his interests with Israel protected. God was working behind the scenes in a far away nation with people and circumstances never mentioned in scripture to insure this prophecy came to pass and help save God's people, 200 years before Cyrus' arrival.
Well God certainly wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). So if saving people is so important, isn't there the chance God was working in VPW to save others despite his weaknesses? Cyrus didn't even acknowledge God and yet God worked to insure this guy succeeded at subduing nations, and many people being slaughtered as a result of Cyrus' conquests.
VPW at least acknowledged God to some degree. He may have taken the big choke, but he was still born again and God could still work in him to save, which under his ministry, many were saved. Whether it was 100,000 or only 5,000, that's a lot of people who have been rescued from eternal death. Even if it was only 1,000 people who were saved, that's a powerful moving of the spirit. If God can work in Cyrus, an unbeliever to accomplish His will, then He can work in anybody he chooses.
Lone Wolf
We KNOW God was behind Cyrus' campaign based upon what we read in Scripture. Your speculations about VPW are based upon assumptions.
Hi Lone Wolf,
Societal approved sex can be a god to some people, and other people can embrace a god of societal recognition that copyrights entail. Some people love BOTH of these false gods.
For those who operate under the umbrella of these gods, their regard for what is a sin against these gods (and what these gods represent) is that such sin is totally unforgivable. LoneWolf, these people cannot be reached with your reasonable appeal. Their gods won't allow it.
I see some value in civilized, loving, and thoughtful sexual practices and customs, and I also see some value in academic and marketplace copyrights. However, I see GREAT value in masterfully absorbing the final product, written PFAL, that God produced for us grads by the hand of VPW along with his accomplished team of editors.
We could add Balaam, Saul, David, Solomon to the list of sinners with whom God worked, as I have here often.
VPW admitted to have not risen up to the fullness of what the PFAL revelations teach, but that doesn't mean WE can't manifest that fullness, as we drop our false gods, and as we seriously look at that written final product of VPW's legacy.
Man, this is really twisted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Taking standards of moral decency and turning them around to be the bad guy. Usually people support the laws of the land that serve to protect what is near and dear to them – like life, liberty [which includes freedom from life-dominating cults and sexual predators], property [physical or intellectual], etc…Value is in the eye of the beholder – I think absorbing PFAL in any form is a sad waste of brain cells... Seriously – taking a good long look at what's been written about VPW on GSC – is a revelation of his true legacy.
As you know, I believe that regardless of how whacked VPW may have gotten, there was a time when his ministry was helping people and getting people saved.
Some people believe that because he plagiarized and scandalized women that his entire ministry was a sham and never had God in it.
In the OT, we know that Isaiah prophesied of the coming of Cryus the Persian about 200 years before he actually arrived.
Isaiah 44:28-45:5
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid."'
45:1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD, the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,
I was studying this just the other day and was quite taken. Here is a pagan king, and God is empowering him to conquer nations. Why? Because God needed his interests with Israel protected. God was working behind the scenes in a far away nation with people and circumstances never mentioned in scripture to insure this prophecy came to pass and help save God's people, 200 years before Cyrus' arrival.
Well God certainly wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). So if saving people is so important, isn't there the chance God was working in VPW to save others despite his weaknesses? Cyrus didn't even acknowledge God and yet God worked to insure this guy succeeded at subduing nations, and many people being slaughtered as a result of Cyrus' conquests.
VPW at least acknowledged God to some degree. He may have taken the big choke, but he was still born again and God could still work in him to save, which under his ministry, many were saved. Whether it was 100,000 or only 5,000, that's a lot of people who have been rescued from eternal death. Even if it was only 1,000 people who were saved, that's a powerful moving of the spirit. If God can work in Cyrus, an unbeliever to accomplish His will, then He can work in anybody he chooses.
Lone Wolf
Lone Wolf, I agree with you.
In fact, I was thinking about Cyrus in regard to VPW just the other day as well. It's been 20 years since I left TWI. I've thought more about it in the past week or two since joining GS cafe than I have in quite a while. (I was in for 13 years, Corps, married to clergy etc.) I feel like the passage of time and God's gracious faithfulness to heal has put a perspective on my experiences in TWI. If God can use a pagan king (BTW I believe that if you study Persian history Cyrus was just as bloodthirsty and ruthless as the rest of the Persian rulers) or Balaam's donkey, He can use anyone and anything for His purposes. I'm not trying to defend VPW here or say whether or not he was a true believer, I'll let God judge him on that score. I can and do pray for mercy.
Anyway, I was genuinely born-again during PFAL. I confessed Romans 10:9, 10 and spoke in tongues during the class. I was raised Catholic, but by the time I took the class at age 16 in 1974, I was a professing atheist. I was not born again until I confessed Jesus as my Lord and Saviour in PFAL. I consider most of the rest of what was taught in that class highly suspect but I have to give it credit. My life changed and no I longer spent my time partying but genuinely started seeking God. I had a new sense of adventure. Many of the experiences I had on the WOW field and in res WC were just plain great adventures and I think I'm a better person for them. I never would have had those experiences if not for TWI. All in all I have to say that my life is better for having been in. Again, I'm not trying to minimize the bad experiences many have had and I did have some bad ones too. But I can't imagine that my life would have been better without them.
Again, I'm not trying to defend the sin and deception that ran deep in TWI. When I became aware of the fact of VP's and Martindale's sexual and control habits I left. It was traumatic to find out something that you had thought was so good was not. But God is bigger than any man or organization. I do believe that God touched my life and called me serve Him. When I went into the Way Corps I made a solemn vow to God to serve Him with my life, I gave it to Him completely and I was devastated when I thought that I had made a worthless vow. Then by God's grace He showed me that He wasn't done with me and He allowed me to continue to serve Him. I'm sure there are many of my fellow TWI brothers and sisters with a similar perspective.
I also met my dear husband of 25 years in the Way Corps and many lifelong friends. I feel a connection to all who were in TWI whether I knew them or not and it's great to reconnect with some old friends and acquaintances here and make some new ones.
it's a bunch of bullsh!t. lots of things happen all the time that God obviously doesn't "want" to happen. and lots of things i'd think He does want that don't happen. why? good question!
Societal approved sex can be a god to some people,
For those arriving late, the standard in God's Word that advocates things like NO SEX IF YOU'RE NOT
MARRIED TO THE PERSON, and ONLY MARRY ONE SPOUSE,
which 99.999999% of the Christian world has no difficulty understanding
(whether or not they actually OBEY this, they understand they're acting against Scripture)
has been transformed in Mikean theology.
There, the injunctions which were even given in the CFS class by vpw HIMSELF
are morphed into a "societal-cultural" set of rules rather than Biblical ones.
Why do they suddenly lose their authoritative status?
Well,
Mikean theology is all about elevating books with vpw's name on them, and tapes with
vpw teaching on them- and downgrading any actual BIBLES in comparison.
The word of vpw is the NEW word of God, and the word of the creating thing has
replaced the Word of the Creator, and labelled accordingly as the word of that
Creator.
In the process, vpw gets elevated to the status of a demigod, someone who strides
the earth and shapes destiny, someone, who, to quote Mike directly, was
"born with an overabundance of brains and brawn", someone "overgifted",
someone who "when he walked, the earth shook."
(Those are direct quotes, mind you, not ironic paraphrases.)
So, vpw has to be ABSOLVED or EXONERATED of all evil deeds he performed.
So, when vpw did something, and the Bible disapproved, according to Mikean theology,
THEN THE BIBLE IS WRONG AND VPW IS RIGHT.
Having been unable to wish away all the accounts of the witness and victims,
and unable to justify the rapes, questionably-consensual sex initiated by vpw,
and the drugged rapes as "attempts to toughen up the corps spiritually",
Mike has labelled them as perfectly-acceptable behaviour,
which means vpw was right, which makes the Bible WRONG.
Therefore, when God says "don't have sex with your brother's wife",
Mike labels that a societal rule, not a rule from God,
and the injunctions get downgraded to "societal-approved sex".
Since some people keep claiming things like
"vpw never did it", "the women all wanted it", "it was for their own good",
the more conscientious GSC posters feel it is necessary to wade into the
same tired-old discussions and point out, once again,
that vpw's actions were sinful.
It gets tiresome to have to keep reposting on the same subject-
but some people are determined to whitewash the truth,
and rewrite both the past and the present,
sacrificing truth to salve their own conscience.
In the case of the Mikean belief system,
"societal-approved sex" is not a god, but vpw-worship IS.
Thus the need to turn God's instructions into a society-based set of rules
and removing God Almighty from the picture.
and other people can embrace a god of societal recognition that copyrights entail. Some people love BOTH of these false gods.
For the reasons mentioned above, likewise, Mike has attempted to make all of
vpw's criminal actions-including the felonies of multiple plagiarisms-
perfectly acceptable activities.
After attempts to say vpw never plagiarized, and that it was acceptable for scholars
to do so went flat, he went on to "God told him to plagiarize", which is where he's at now.
Since some people-like Mike-keep insisting either that vpw didn't plagiarize, or that
it's perfectly acceptable or persist in perpetuating completely false meanings of
plagiarism,
it becomes necessary for the more conscience-driven GSC posters to repost and
set the record straight, over and over and over...
monotonous, but with posters (often the SAME posters) keep acting to popularize
falsehoods, it becomes necessary to repost to keep things honest.
vpw went out of his way to violate copyrights AND to plagiarize on a grand scale,
while making sure all "his" books had copyright notices on them.
That's illegal AND hypocritical.
However, since vpw did it, Mike has to "anoint" it as holy and sacred-
so long as vpw did it.
Mike thinks it's idolatry to report the truth about vpw's plagiarism,
but that it's NOT idolatry to consider vpw's "writings" sacred, and his actions
sacrosanct. Thus, his claim that OTHERS have made false gods-
of reporting rapes and reporting plagiarism-
fall a little flat in the ears of many people even slightly familiar with
Mikean theology.
For those who operate under the umbrella of these gods, their regard for what is a sin against these gods (and what these gods represent) is that such sin is totally unforgivable.
For Mike, who operates under the umbrella of vpw reverencing and devotion,
his regard for what is any criticism of vpw, no matter what the evidence and the
backing of Holy Scripture-
is that such criticism is a sin and totally unforgiveable.
LoneWolf, these people cannot be reached with your reasonable appeal. Their gods won't allow it.
LoneWolf, unless you're ready to proclaim the Bible as everyone knows it DEFUNCT
(ignoring all the historical/archeological data of the last CENTURY), and vpw's "books"
as a new Bible, Mke will consider you unreachable with any "reasonable appeal."
His gods won't allow any other position.
I see some value in civilized, loving, and thoughtful sexual practices and customs, and I also see some value in academic and marketplace copyrights.
In other words, if vpw did it, it was ok. If it contradicted what vpw did,
it's not civilized, loving or thoughtful.
Oh, and vpw stamps a copyright on plagiarized materials, that's fine.
vpw plagiarizes materials of others, that's fine.
Plagiarizing vpw, now THAT'S wrong.
And it's time for the commercial...
However, I see GREAT value in masterfully absorbing the final product, written PFAL, that God produced for us grads by the hand of VPW along with his accomplished team of editors.
We could add Balaam, Saul, David, Solomon to the list of sinners with whom God worked, as I have here often.
VPW admitted to have not risen up to the fullness of what the PFAL revelations teach, but that doesn’t mean WE can’t manifest that fullness, as we drop our false gods, and as we seriously look at that written final product of VPW’s legacy.
In fact, I was thinking about Cyrus in regard to VPW just the other day as well. It's been 20 years since I left TWI. I've thought more about it in the past week or two since joining GS cafe than I have in quite a while. (I was in for 13 years, Corps, married to clergy etc.) I feel like the passage of time and God's gracious faithfulness to heal has put a perspective on my experiences in TWI. If God can use a pagan king (BTW I believe that if you study Persian history Cyrus was just as bloodthirsty and ruthless as the rest of the Persian rulers) or Balaam's donkey, He can use anyone and anything for His purposes. I'm not trying to defend VPW here or say whether or not he was a true believer, I'll let God judge him on that score. I can and do pray for mercy.
I'll agree with all of that.
Anyway, I was genuinely born-again during PFAL. I confessed Romans 10:9, 10 and spoke in tongues during the class. I was raised Catholic, but by the time I took the class at age 16 in 1974, I was a professing atheist. I was not born again until I confessed Jesus as my Lord and Saviour in PFAL. I consider most of the rest of what was taught in that class highly suspect but I have to give it credit. My life changed and no I longer spent my time partying but genuinely started seeking God. I had a new sense of adventure. Many of the experiences I had on the WOW field and in res WC were just plain great adventures and I think I'm a better person for them. I never would have had those experiences if not for TWI. All in all I have to say that my life is better for having been in. Again, I'm not trying to minimize the bad experiences many have had and I did have some bad ones too. But I can't imagine that my life would have been better without them.
I can't disagree with your experience.
You received benefit, and acknowledge not everyone did.
That matches my own experience in both respects.
Again, I'm not trying to defend the sin and deception that ran deep in TWI. When I became aware of the fact of VP's and Martindale's sexual and control habits I left. It was traumatic to find out something that you had thought was so good was not. But God is bigger than any man or organization. I do believe that God touched my life and called me serve Him. When I went into the Way Corps I made a solemn vow to God to serve Him with my life, I gave it to Him completely and I was devastated when I thought that I had made a worthless vow. Then by God's grace He showed me that He wasn't done with me and He allowed me to continue to serve Him. I'm sure there are many of my fellow TWI brothers and sisters with a similar perspective.
A number of ex-corps have said much the same, and it's comparable to what
many of us non-corps have said.
I also met my dear husband of 25 years in the Way Corps and many lifelong friends. I feel a connection to all who were in TWI whether I knew them or not and it's great to reconnect with some old friends and acquaintances here and make some new ones.
So thanks Lone Wolf for a great observation!
I agree about the acquaintances, and I agree it's of benefit to discuss new ideas,
even when I disagree with the conclusion.
Therefore, I find this thread of merit either way.
Since I'm a guy, I didn't meet a husband anywhere, so I can't match your
As far as drawing any comparisons between Cyrus and VPW – you can’t – it’s like comparing apples to oranges.
God did not set up Cyrus as a teacher of the Bible or minister of God – but as a political instrument that displayed God’s sovereignty – even over non-believers! And the only reason we know that God was behind the scenes orchestrating things is because it says so in the Bible [isaiah 44 and 45].
To determine if someone is a legitimate teacher of the Bible or minister of God – wouldn’t it make sense to apply biblical standards in the assessment? Jesus warned us about false prophets by saying to look at their fruit [Matthew 7:15-20] – the result of their labor. Paul says we’re to look at the content of their teachings . Peter not only calls attention to their doctrine but also their behavior as well [iI Peter 2].
What is the fruit of VPW’s labor? A life-dominating, life-sucking, life-ruining organization known as TWI. What is the content of his teachings? Well, we could argue all day over what the Bible says on any given subject – but I’ll be honest with you as far as my personal Bible study as a Christian goes – most of what VPW taught I chucked out the window a long time ago. What about VPW’s behavior? Anyone that’s been around him when he wasn’t playing to the general TWI audience can definitely clue you in on just how hypocritical, mean and lewd he could be!
T-Bone...you nailed it. People seem to have a huge problem comparing like with like. Cyrus and VP...no freaking connection whatsoever. I would look at the NT sections describing wolves in sheep's clothing, the false apostles, etc. that GOD clearly warns the church against. VP was a song and dance man but he failed to uphold the standard he proclaimed. And NO, I do not expect that he would be w/o sin BUT I do expect him to pass the test of 1 Timothy 3, which applies to all who wish to serve, much less those who might wish to oversee other servants.
.
.
.
....folks, there is something Seriously wrong w/ a man(of GOD?????) in his fifties and sixties who runs around getting into little girls 16-25 underwear. SORRY, MIKE, NO ifs, ands or buts about it. You can dress that pig's ear up, but it will never be raw Asian silk no matter how hard you confess and "believe".......
Bullinger, in his attempt to harmonize the lists of Persian Kings in Herodotus, the inscription of the Rock of Behistun, the cylinder of Cyrus with the names/titles of Kings listed in the bible, concluded that Cyrus was the son of Ahasuerus aka Artaxerxes aka Darius the Median and Esther from the Book of Esther.
it's a bunch of bullsh!t. lots of things happen all the time that God obviously doesn't "want" to happen. and lots of things i'd think He does want that don't happen. why? good question!
So much for Faith and Hope.
Why did God create Adam and Eve just so they'd screw up? Why Lucifer? Why did J.C., who did God's will always, have to suffer horribly to save our butts?
God will double back to us things we've suffered for if we stay in Faith or He won't.
God works in spite of Lucifer. God works in spite of vpw and twi.
Recommended Posts
Bolshevik
God blessed David for Isreal's sake, and David knew it. I think these verses just show how God is always at work for His people.
If Wierwille had not stole from other ministers, might those men's ministries have gone on to save even more?
My folks just now told me that if it weren't for twi, they wouldn't have met and I wouldn't have been born. As if that justifies any wrong-doing by twi. Whoopee I told them. If God wants something to happen, it will happen.
Edited by BolshevikLink to comment
Share on other sites
Lone Wolf McQuade
Bolshevik, you said...
When push comes to shove, that's pretty much the truth of the matter, no matter who He has to go through, He'll find a way to accomplish his purposes.
Lone Wolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I wonder if it was HIS ministry.
Now I think if any thing good became of it, it was despite him.
Maybe in a past life he was Cyrus, who knows.. now a "king" without a cause.
:)
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Maybe God wanted the world to have nicer rugs.
Then why do some so addamently defend twi? It's trash. People see it does more harm than good, and defend it. Why? Why is it so important to turn this ministry around?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
(Ain't that the truth!)
LoneWolf -- I get what you're saying, but I wonder how many actually were *saved* by docvic, twi, and/or the class??
Many that I witnessed to that took the class (granted -- not a HUGE number, and myself as well) ---
were already involved in some other church setting, and took the class for the *key* aspect.
In other words -- learning more about the bible, which we had already been introduced to.
Bolshevik makes a very valid point.
It came up in the threads about Jim Doop and the Jesus Movement of the 60's.
The argument was made (validated or not -- and I don't know where the thread is, so don't ask),
that docvic hijacked the Jesus movement,
He went, he saw, he conquered. What was a viable interest in God and the Scripture (at that time),
somehow got all funneled into box 328 N.K., Ohio.
Want my opinion?? Docvic was the absolute opposite of Cyrus.
:)
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
I should have added this ---
Cyrus was the man he knew to be.
Docvic was not. (look at his tombstone).
Even though a pagan -- Cyrus adhered to the Word given to him in prophesy.
Even though a *Christian* -- Docvic acted like a pagan. Go figure. :(
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Hi Lone Wolf,
Societal approved sex can be a god to some people, and other people can embrace a god of societal recognition that copyrights entail. Some people love BOTH of these false gods.
For those who operate under the umbrella of these gods, their regard for what is a sin against these gods (and what these gods represent) is that such sin is totally unforgivable. LoneWolf, these people cannot be reached with your reasonable appeal. Their gods won't allow it.
I see some value in civilized, loving, and thoughtful sexual practices and customs, and I also see some value in academic and marketplace copyrights. However, I see GREAT value in masterfully absorbing the final product, written PFAL, that God produced for us grads by the hand of VPW along with his accomplished team of editors.
We could add Balaam, Saul, David, Solomon to the list of sinners with whom God worked, as I have here often.
VPW admitted to have not risen up to the fullness of what the PFAL revelations teach, but that doesn’t mean WE can’t manifest that fullness, as we drop our false gods, and as we seriously look at that written final product of VPW’s legacy.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
Uh Oh! Are we going on the PFAL merrygoround again?????
PLEASE TELL ME NO!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
We KNOW God was behind Cyrus' campaign based upon what we read in Scripture. Your speculations about VPW are based upon assumptions.
Man, this is really twisted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Taking standards of moral decency and turning them around to be the bad guy. Usually people support the laws of the land that serve to protect what is near and dear to them – like life, liberty [which includes freedom from life-dominating cults and sexual predators], property [physical or intellectual], etc…Value is in the eye of the beholder – I think absorbing PFAL in any form is a sad waste of brain cells... Seriously – taking a good long look at what's been written about VPW on GSC – is a revelation of his true legacy.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
wrdsandwrks
Lone Wolf, I agree with you.
In fact, I was thinking about Cyrus in regard to VPW just the other day as well. It's been 20 years since I left TWI. I've thought more about it in the past week or two since joining GS cafe than I have in quite a while. (I was in for 13 years, Corps, married to clergy etc.) I feel like the passage of time and God's gracious faithfulness to heal has put a perspective on my experiences in TWI. If God can use a pagan king (BTW I believe that if you study Persian history Cyrus was just as bloodthirsty and ruthless as the rest of the Persian rulers) or Balaam's donkey, He can use anyone and anything for His purposes. I'm not trying to defend VPW here or say whether or not he was a true believer, I'll let God judge him on that score. I can and do pray for mercy.
Anyway, I was genuinely born-again during PFAL. I confessed Romans 10:9, 10 and spoke in tongues during the class. I was raised Catholic, but by the time I took the class at age 16 in 1974, I was a professing atheist. I was not born again until I confessed Jesus as my Lord and Saviour in PFAL. I consider most of the rest of what was taught in that class highly suspect but I have to give it credit. My life changed and no I longer spent my time partying but genuinely started seeking God. I had a new sense of adventure. Many of the experiences I had on the WOW field and in res WC were just plain great adventures and I think I'm a better person for them. I never would have had those experiences if not for TWI. All in all I have to say that my life is better for having been in. Again, I'm not trying to minimize the bad experiences many have had and I did have some bad ones too. But I can't imagine that my life would have been better without them.
Again, I'm not trying to defend the sin and deception that ran deep in TWI. When I became aware of the fact of VP's and Martindale's sexual and control habits I left. It was traumatic to find out something that you had thought was so good was not. But God is bigger than any man or organization. I do believe that God touched my life and called me serve Him. When I went into the Way Corps I made a solemn vow to God to serve Him with my life, I gave it to Him completely and I was devastated when I thought that I had made a worthless vow. Then by God's grace He showed me that He wasn't done with me and He allowed me to continue to serve Him. I'm sure there are many of my fellow TWI brothers and sisters with a similar perspective.
I also met my dear husband of 25 years in the Way Corps and many lifelong friends. I feel a connection to all who were in TWI whether I knew them or not and it's great to reconnect with some old friends and acquaintances here and make some new ones.
So thanks Lone Wolf for a great observation!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
is that right?
sorry to be so cliché, but what about all the bad stuff that happens in this world? where was "what God's wanted" last week, when all those people were killed at Virginia Tech? didn't God want that stopped? (back in twi, we'd go into our "God can't overstep people's free will" rap about now. with maybe a little of "when we're outside of God's will, we tie His hands" sprinkled in.)
it's a bunch of bullsh!t. lots of things happen all the time that God obviously doesn't "want" to happen. and lots of things i'd think He does want that don't happen. why? good question!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Yes – I see your point, Oak…VPW acted like a Christian publicly…privately he schemed and behaved like a sexual predator.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
If I read Oak's observation correctly, Pagans behaved a lot better than vic..
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I agree, Hamm!...Maybe PFAL is really about VPW’s covert career: Poonhound For A Living.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
For those arriving late, the standard in God's Word that advocates things like NO SEX IF YOU'RE NOT
MARRIED TO THE PERSON, and ONLY MARRY ONE SPOUSE,
which 99.999999% of the Christian world has no difficulty understanding
(whether or not they actually OBEY this, they understand they're acting against Scripture)
has been transformed in Mikean theology.
There, the injunctions which were even given in the CFS class by vpw HIMSELF
are morphed into a "societal-cultural" set of rules rather than Biblical ones.
Why do they suddenly lose their authoritative status?
Well,
Mikean theology is all about elevating books with vpw's name on them, and tapes with
vpw teaching on them- and downgrading any actual BIBLES in comparison.
The word of vpw is the NEW word of God, and the word of the creating thing has
replaced the Word of the Creator, and labelled accordingly as the word of that
Creator.
In the process, vpw gets elevated to the status of a demigod, someone who strides
the earth and shapes destiny, someone, who, to quote Mike directly, was
"born with an overabundance of brains and brawn", someone "overgifted",
someone who "when he walked, the earth shook."
(Those are direct quotes, mind you, not ironic paraphrases.)
So, vpw has to be ABSOLVED or EXONERATED of all evil deeds he performed.
So, when vpw did something, and the Bible disapproved, according to Mikean theology,
THEN THE BIBLE IS WRONG AND VPW IS RIGHT.
Having been unable to wish away all the accounts of the witness and victims,
and unable to justify the rapes, questionably-consensual sex initiated by vpw,
and the drugged rapes as "attempts to toughen up the corps spiritually",
Mike has labelled them as perfectly-acceptable behaviour,
which means vpw was right, which makes the Bible WRONG.
Therefore, when God says "don't have sex with your brother's wife",
Mike labels that a societal rule, not a rule from God,
and the injunctions get downgraded to "societal-approved sex".
Since some people keep claiming things like
"vpw never did it", "the women all wanted it", "it was for their own good",
the more conscientious GSC posters feel it is necessary to wade into the
same tired-old discussions and point out, once again,
that vpw's actions were sinful.
It gets tiresome to have to keep reposting on the same subject-
but some people are determined to whitewash the truth,
and rewrite both the past and the present,
sacrificing truth to salve their own conscience.
In the case of the Mikean belief system,
"societal-approved sex" is not a god, but vpw-worship IS.
Thus the need to turn God's instructions into a society-based set of rules
and removing God Almighty from the picture.
For the reasons mentioned above, likewise, Mike has attempted to make all ofvpw's criminal actions-including the felonies of multiple plagiarisms-
perfectly acceptable activities.
After attempts to say vpw never plagiarized, and that it was acceptable for scholars
to do so went flat, he went on to "God told him to plagiarize", which is where he's at now.
Since some people-like Mike-keep insisting either that vpw didn't plagiarize, or that
it's perfectly acceptable or persist in perpetuating completely false meanings of
plagiarism,
it becomes necessary for the more conscience-driven GSC posters to repost and
set the record straight, over and over and over...
monotonous, but with posters (often the SAME posters) keep acting to popularize
falsehoods, it becomes necessary to repost to keep things honest.
vpw went out of his way to violate copyrights AND to plagiarize on a grand scale,
while making sure all "his" books had copyright notices on them.
That's illegal AND hypocritical.
However, since vpw did it, Mike has to "anoint" it as holy and sacred-
so long as vpw did it.
Mike thinks it's idolatry to report the truth about vpw's plagiarism,
but that it's NOT idolatry to consider vpw's "writings" sacred, and his actions
sacrosanct. Thus, his claim that OTHERS have made false gods-
of reporting rapes and reporting plagiarism-
fall a little flat in the ears of many people even slightly familiar with
Mikean theology.
For Mike, who operates under the umbrella of vpw reverencing and devotion,
his regard for what is any criticism of vpw, no matter what the evidence and the
backing of Holy Scripture-
is that such criticism is a sin and totally unforgiveable.
LoneWolf, unless you're ready to proclaim the Bible as everyone knows it DEFUNCT(ignoring all the historical/archeological data of the last CENTURY), and vpw's "books"
as a new Bible, Mke will consider you unreachable with any "reasonable appeal."
His gods won't allow any other position.
In other words, if vpw did it, it was ok. If it contradicted what vpw did,
it's not civilized, loving or thoughtful.
Oh, and vpw stamps a copyright on plagiarized materials, that's fine.
vpw plagiarizes materials of others, that's fine.
Plagiarizing vpw, now THAT'S wrong.
And it's time for the commercial...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I'll agree with all of that.
I can't disagree with your experience.You received benefit, and acknowledge not everyone did.
That matches my own experience in both respects.
A number of ex-corps have said much the same, and it's comparable to what
many of us non-corps have said.
I agree about the acquaintances, and I agree it's of benefit to discuss new ideas,
even when I disagree with the conclusion.
Therefore, I find this thread of merit either way.
Since I'm a guy, I didn't meet a husband anywhere, so I can't match your
experience on that one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Well, the ones I've known do....
Both in internal consistency, and in not committing felonies and just
trying not to get caught.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
danteh1
Wasn't Cyrus also the king that restored the Jews to Isreal after thier captivity?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
As far as drawing any comparisons between Cyrus and VPW – you can’t – it’s like comparing apples to oranges.
God did not set up Cyrus as a teacher of the Bible or minister of God – but as a political instrument that displayed God’s sovereignty – even over non-believers! And the only reason we know that God was behind the scenes orchestrating things is because it says so in the Bible [isaiah 44 and 45].
To determine if someone is a legitimate teacher of the Bible or minister of God – wouldn’t it make sense to apply biblical standards in the assessment? Jesus warned us about false prophets by saying to look at their fruit [Matthew 7:15-20] – the result of their labor. Paul says we’re to look at the content of their teachings . Peter not only calls attention to their doctrine but also their behavior as well [iI Peter 2].
What is the fruit of VPW’s labor? A life-dominating, life-sucking, life-ruining organization known as TWI. What is the content of his teachings? Well, we could argue all day over what the Bible says on any given subject – but I’ll be honest with you as far as my personal Bible study as a Christian goes – most of what VPW taught I chucked out the window a long time ago. What about VPW’s behavior? Anyone that’s been around him when he wasn’t playing to the general TWI audience can definitely clue you in on just how hypocritical, mean and lewd he could be!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
T-Bone...you nailed it. People seem to have a huge problem comparing like with like. Cyrus and VP...no freaking connection whatsoever. I would look at the NT sections describing wolves in sheep's clothing, the false apostles, etc. that GOD clearly warns the church against. VP was a song and dance man but he failed to uphold the standard he proclaimed. And NO, I do not expect that he would be w/o sin BUT I do expect him to pass the test of 1 Timothy 3, which applies to all who wish to serve, much less those who might wish to oversee other servants.
.
.
.
....folks, there is something Seriously wrong w/ a man(of GOD?????) in his fifties and sixties who runs around getting into little girls 16-25 underwear. SORRY, MIKE, NO ifs, ands or buts about it. You can dress that pig's ear up, but it will never be raw Asian silk no matter how hard you confess and "believe".......
Edited by alfakatLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Bullinger, in his attempt to harmonize the lists of Persian Kings in Herodotus, the inscription of the Rock of Behistun, the cylinder of Cyrus with the names/titles of Kings listed in the bible, concluded that Cyrus was the son of Ahasuerus aka Artaxerxes aka Darius the Median and Esther from the Book of Esther.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
So much for Faith and Hope.
Why did God create Adam and Eve just so they'd screw up? Why Lucifer? Why did J.C., who did God's will always, have to suffer horribly to save our butts?
God will double back to us things we've suffered for if we stay in Faith or He won't.
God works in spite of Lucifer. God works in spite of vpw and twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mrs. Bolshevik
Uh, so I'm new...But the God I trust in and rely on is a good God. It is in his nature to turn lemons into lemonade.
This doesn't mean he should have to. God is just good like that. VPW/TWI is tasting pretty tart right now.
Mrs. B
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.