A Few Big Things I Learned Taking PFAL

[WhiteDove]

Perhaps who to pray to is another point of distinction between Trinitarians and Unitarians. In my opinion, TWI made more of an issue out of it. To me, that's the influence of the PFAL-mindset that likes to draw up rigid rules, formulas, and principles for everything. While I do see passages that speak of prayer to the Father – I also find instances of prayer to "the Lord" – a title applied to Father and Son:

Well we disagree ,but then I don't have an axe to grind with PFAL mindset either. I don't see PFAL as a part of it at all. I see no scriptural support for it, that is different. PFAL getting something wrong and the Bible getting something wrong are two entirely different things.

Yes there are references to prayer to the LORD. That does not mean it is the same person,there are several Mikes here at GreaseSpot we are not the same person just because we have the same name. One would have to look at the usage of lord , note in the passage below that you offered the two lords. One is all caps one is not ,one is Jehovah, one is adoni ,properly translated as lord but not used of GOD in the Bible.

Psalm 110:1-6 NKJV

1 The LORD said to my Lord,

"Sit at My right hand,

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.

Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

3 Your people shall be volunteers

In the day of Your power;

In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,

You have the dew of Your youth.

4 The LORD has sworn

And will not relent,

"You are a priest forever

According to the order of Melchizedek."

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;

He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.

6 He shall judge among the nations,

He shall fill the places with dead bodies,

He shall execute the heads of many countries.

I do not find any Scripture forbidding prayer to the Son nor passages that require us to draw sharp distinctions in the "process of prayer" – for want of a better term – that sounds so cold and mechanical.

There is also no scripture forbidding that says specifically that I can not put a stick in your eye are you suggesting that we can do things just because there is no line that says we can't? It does not say we can not pray to moon men either do I get to say that's ok as well? When the scripture says pray to God and no other choices are given I guess he thought we could figure out what he meant.

I view prayer as basically talking to God. I also think this has bearing with the recent discussion of a personal walk with Jesus. I thought of a few verses:

The relationship…fellowship…communion…of believers is very similar to our relationship with the Father and Son. I see prayer…talking…as a natural part of our relationship with the Father and Son. As I indicated in post # 1508 [and again not saying my prayer life is the norm – just revealing how I think] – when I pray – I don't usually draw a distinction of who I'm addressing – and I don't think it matters – He who listens to my prayers and knows my heart can sort it all out.

Your choice how you choose to act, but it does not follow even the logical pattern of human communication Do you when you want to ask your boss a question walk into the room full of people and just ask amiss and let them sort it out or do you go to the person that you wish to find the answer from? If you are asking your friend for a ride do you also just walk into a room and say hey Joe can you give me a ride and let everyone there sort it out or do you walk up to Joe and ask him? It amazes me that people follow logical communication patters in life and yet when it comes to communicating with God they leave all those behind and dream up a new plan on how they think it should work.

[skyrider]

You omitted the word "true". Haven't quite figure out what it means to be a "true" Christian, but it must be serious. ;)

Just to help you out, Larry..........parallel with twi's terminology and universe, it runs along the same lines as a "committed" believer.

Glad to help.

:)

[Larry N Moore]

Just to help you out, Larry..........parallel with twi's terminology and universe, it runs along the same lines as a "committed" believer.

Glad to help.

:)

Well, that doesn't help me out one bit. I can see many examples of so-called "committed" believers who faltered or stumbled in their walks with God. Does their stumbling make them non-committed believers? And Paul's saying: "The thing that I would not, that I do . . .. " especially comes to mind. Was Paul a non-committed believer because he did things which he knew he should not do?

[skyrider]

Well, that doesn't help me out one bit. I can see many examples of so-called "committed" believers who faltered or stumbled in their walks with God. Does their stumbling make them non-committed believers? And Paul's saying: "The thing that I would not, that I do . . .. " especially comes to mind. Was Paul a non-committed believer because he did things which he knew he should not do?

Questions, so many questions.....

Perhaps, you can sit in the pfal class again, somewhere. Then, at the end of the class......if you STILL have questions, the class coordinator will answer them for you....or strongly suggest that you hold them in abeyance and sit thru the next pfal class.

Everyone should be up-to-speed after sitting thru pfal four or five times, right?

:blink:

[Larry N Moore]

Everyone should be up-to-speed after sitting thru pfal four or five times, right?

Oh, I don't know. I've seen people who have sat through the class more than 20 times and still get some things wrong. I personally have sat through the class more than 20 times. I think there's a few things I've forgotten but, in reading some of the comments about what was taught in PFAL I don't think what I've forgotten surpasses what others have.

Questions, so many questions.....

It's a by-product of making comments which don't make much sense. ;)

[skyrider]

It's a by-product of making comments which don't make much sense. ;)

Is it a true by-product.......or just run-off excess?

[Larry N Moore]

Is it a true by-product.......or just run-off excess?

:) You're NOT permitted to ask such questions. Or have you forgotten so quickly?

[skyrider]

:) You're NOT permitted to ask such questions. Or have you forgotten so quickly?

Why not?

[Larry N Moore]

Why not?

Why are you asking me? Sit through PFAL again and you'll have your answer. :)

[T-Bone]

How then do you account for the fact that different understandings of the same verses arise? Is God telling one person one thing and then telling someone else something entirely different?

I don't know !!!!!!!!!!...And do you know what? I don't care!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't buy into PFAL's theory of the reason we have so many denominations is because of rampant private interpretations of the Bible…Wanna hear something else even wackier? I believe there's a godly design in the fact that we all don't think alike – God's idea of a checks & balances system.

At one point during our discussion on Oakspear's thread Speaking in Tongues – after locking horns with Tom [who believes speaking in tongues is still available and practices it – as opposed to me – I believe it ceased at the early stage of the church] – I conceded that he and I were looking at the Bible from two different viewpoints – and when it's not on something clear cut [like a moral issue i.e. "Is adultery wrong?"] I feel it's always wise to suspect my own viewpoint may be lacking/skewed/erroneous – and to respect the other side for the valid points they present. Maybe Tom is right and I'm wrong. So? What's the big deal?

Jeepers – I'm not leading a ministry or writing books cuz I'm an authority on nuttin'. I'll periodically throw out my standard disclaimers [I may be whacked out on this… In my opinion…I think… this may be off the wall…I could be wrong…just thinking out loud here] as a means of provoking folks to use greater scrutiny when reading my posts – I want their critical thinking activated – I want them to give my best shot their best shot. I don't profess to be a theologian, a philosopher, a psychologist, a genius, former bass player for the Cream, or the man in charge of the bathroom on the bus. I just claim to be the foremost authority on how PFAL screwed me up and what I did to fix it. Of course that's just my opinion of myself - I may be wrong .

Edited August 31, 2007 by T-Bone

[Larry N Moore]

I don't know !!!!!!!!!!...And do you know what? I don't care!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't buy into PFAL's theory of the reason we have so many denominations is because of rampant private interpretations of the Bible…Wanna hear something else even wackier? I believe there's a godly design in the fact that we all don't think alike – God's idea of a checks & balances system.

Calm yourself Tbone. You're not being graded on this. :)

These questions are ones which any person seeking answers should ask. If two people have different viewpoints of God how will they know which is the correct one? Surely God cares. Otherwise why bother having a bunch of men write down what is claimed to be His word and will?

I just claim to be the foremost authority on how PFAL screwed me up and what I did to fix it. Of course that's just my opinion of myself - I may be wrong .

What "screwed" you up was able to "fix" others. I can't imagine that you took the class in the first place if you didn't think you needed "fixing" up. At the time you took it did you feel "fixed" or "screwed"? Funny how are perspective changes over the course of a few years (and through the efforts and testimony of others).

[skyrider]

Why are you asking me? Sit through PFAL again and you'll have your answer. :)

Larry.....a few posts ago, YOU were the one with questions.

You're welcome. I'm always glad to help.

[oldiesman]

But we didn't ''know'' Him. I am talking about ALL THREE too. Not just Jesus Christ.

The bible does say we now see through a glass darkly.

But when we see him face to face, we will know, as we are known.

I'm looking forward to it.

[waysider]

Please hold your questions in abeyance until the end of this thread , at which time they will all be answered.

[T-Bone]

Calm yourself Tbone. You're not being graded on this. :)

These questions are ones which any person seeking answers should ask. If two people have different viewpoints of God how will they know which is the correct one? Surely God cares. Otherwise why bother having a bunch of men write down what is claimed to be His word and will?

What "screwed" you up was able to "fix" others. I can't imagine that you took the class in the first place if you didn't think you needed "fixing" up. At the time you took it did you feel "fixed" or "screwed"? Funny how are perspective changes over the course of a few years (and through the efforts and testimony of others).

Did you happen to notice my phrase "and when it's not on something clear cut [like a moral issue i.e. "Is adultery wrong?"] I feel it's always wise to suspect my own viewpoint may be lacking/skewed/erroneous – and to respect the other side for the valid points they present. Maybe Tom is right and I'm wrong. So? What's the big deal?" ? That's why I mentioned the speaking in tongues issue – or a recent one on this thread – the Trinity/Unitarian issue. I see valid points on both sides of the issues. If it's that big a deal to God – perhaps He should have been a lot clearer. Why do you feel you have to figure everything out? Why do you feel you have to know your viewpoint is correct?

Those are some tough theological topics to explore – I'm not making light of theology. For me, the bigger issues of Bible study are the ones that have big practical consequences – that's why I brought up the moral issues in the Bible – I think that is a big part of why God had this stuff written. Jesus summed up the extent of the Bible written at the time by saying it revolved around loving God and neighbor. That covers a whole lotta moral ground! What's the correct viewpoint on the two great commandments?....And I think we're all being graded on this.

Whoa….let me stop you right there…I said I was an expert on how PFAL screwed me up! That's your opinion of what it did to others….Let's see – at the time I took the class I was elated to hear about the magical law of believing – that I could alter reality by what I thought. At the time….it sounded like a good idea.

Edited August 31, 2007 by T-Bone

[Ham]

Everyone should be up-to-speed after sitting thru pfal four or five times, right?

I did a count once.. for me, it was somewhere between forty and sixty times if I remember correctly.

All that, and I'm STILL nuts.

[Bumpy]

I did a count once.. for me, it was somewhere between forty and sixty times if I remember correctly.

All that, and I'm STILL nuts.

Sorry, but judging by the size of your "brain", you might need further pfal exposure conditioning in order to pass the up-coming rodent exam! (given only 3 times per year in a location to be determined) Make sure you book your hotel arrangements in advance!!

[oldiesman]

I can talk ''about you'' Oldies all day here on GSC. But, I still wouldn't have a relationship with you unless I talked/emailed, PMd, /see you.

Yes I can see that. But then again, you wrote in a previous statement,

If we are discussing the trinity, then, OLDIES, yes, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER, and if they ALL ARE ONE, then it doesn't matter which one we address..............

Or which one is teaching, since they are all one?

So then are you saying that according to trinitarian doctrine, IF one talks with and fellowships with JESUS, one also is fellowshipping with God and the Holy Spirit, since they are all one?

Then that would mean,

IF one talks with and fellowships with GOD, one also is fellowshipping with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, since they are all one?

IF one talks with and fellowships with THE HOLY SPIRIT, one also is fellowshipping with God and Jesus, since they are all one?

??

Is that correct?

Gotta go now. Have a great labor day weekend, one and all!

Edited August 31, 2007 by oldiesman

[excathedra]

At the time you took it did you feel "fixed" or "screwed"? Funny how are perspective changes over the course of a few years

larry, at the time i took it, i definitely felt i needed to be "fixed"

as time went on, i definitely felt i was "screwed"

it's not really "funny" how are perspective changes..... i think it's good

[Bumpy]

larry, at the time i took it, i definitely felt i needed to be "fixed"

as time went on, i definitely felt i was "screwed"

it's not really "funny" how are perspective changes..... i think it's good

So not to make it less "funny"...did you get "fixed" after or before you were "screwed"! :biglaugh:

[excathedra]

neither

[doojable]

Okay class...

We'll take a ten minute break. Use the restroom. Refreshments are at the back. Please smoke outside and throw your butts in the coffee can that has sand, (not in the potted plants )

Remember to wait to ask questions...

Will someone have a word of prayer....

(There are three so they can have manifestations...;)

[excathedra]

please hang out with the new people during the break and pet them and tell them not to worry about their questions

[doojable]

Yea - go hang out with "your fruit," your "babes."

Sheeesh!

[excathedra]

but my fruit doesn't smoke, can we trade ?