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It has recently come to my attention that VPW taught that the Holocaust never happened or the numbers were radically skewed.

I was accused (without being asked first if I believed it) of this -- even though I have never been in The Way (taught in an offshoot) and was never taught such a thing.

It ....es me off that I was judged just because of some internet research and something I was never taught because I was never in THE WAY.

To all you oldies: Did VPW really teach this? Or is this an internet rumor?

Edited by Outfield

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There are threads on this. Let me see if I can dig them up and link them.

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I was accused (without being asked first if I believed it) of this -- even though I have never been in The Way (taught in an offshoot) and was never taught such a thing.

So someone accused you of believing Revisionist information because you simply taught in the offshoot. The offshoot itself didn't even teach it. Amazing! Thats really cruel.

Yes VPW had books in the Way Bookstore for the longest time about Revisionist thought and theories. The Myth of the Six Million, and the Hoax of the Twenthieth Century are two that were there.

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Thank you Oldie -- I didn't know what to think!

I've never studied Holocaust, I've never been taught that -- but this person is Jewish and says she has forgiven me and can't go on being friends with me with out stating this. At first I told her, "I never did believe that." But now it just enrages me that she accused me without asking and then said I was affiliated with The Way. I said, "No I was taught by people who were at one time in The Way."

I'm praying to just let this go -- but it really infuriates me that she assumed I was apart of this. Never bothered to ask me personally. And then judged me.

And, I wrote her a nice e-mail back stating (just where I never was taught that) what I stated to you all and I have yet to receive an apology.

It just kinda gets me going on people like this -- Like The View on ABC -- we have these people that want to talk about all the hurt and how they were abused (Rosie O'donnell, now Whoopie Goldberg stating dog fighting is in the black culture).

I understand that. But why dwell on that? Why not move on and work on bettering society so it doesn't happen again? Educate. Teach humanity. I'm sorry but this woman falsely accused me and that just breeds hate -- I am praying for the pain and annoynance to go away and I don't want to feed the wolf.

I just wanted to ask you oldies on here if it was true. Thanks for the links guys.

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I just found this website several days ago and have been catching up. I was in The Way back in 1970 until 1980ish. Yes, VPW insisted that the Holocaust did not happen. I believe another book that was sold in the bookstore was "The Thirteenth Tribe" (in addition to The Myth of the Six Million.) It was one of the many reasons I wanted to leave and eventually did. VPW was anti-semitic. I also think he could not accept that the German people had done this -- if you recall, he was very proud of his German ancestry. I was appalled that these books were sold. My brother -- still a VPW worshipper -- was convinced and also justified the books as, "This is another viewpoint that doesn't get presented in the mainstream. We just want to make it available to you."

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I've never studied Holocaust, I've never been taught that -- but this person is Jewish and says she has forgiven me and can't go on being friends with me with out stating this. At first I told her, "I never did believe that." But now it just enrages me that she accused me without asking and then said I was affiliated with The Way. I said, "No I was taught by people who were at one time in The Way."

I'm confused. Was the person accusing you also once affiliated with TWI? If not, how did she know TWI taught that? If she was, did she leave TWI over that issue or did she stay in spite of those teachings?

I remember some teachings on that stuff when I was with TWI too. Having relatives who were holocaust survivors, I just let it go in one ear and out the other.

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I'm confused. Was the person accusing you also once affiliated with TWI? If not, how did she know TWI taught that? If she was, did she leave TWI over that issue or did she stay in spite of those teachings?

I remember some teachings on that stuff when I was with TWI too. Having relatives who were holocaust survivors, I just let it go in one ear and out the other.

No, this person just found this stuff out via internet research on THE WAY and VPW. Never with the Way. And didn't bother to ask my beliefs.

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I wouldn't be angry with her. Its a very sensitive thing for Jewish people and those who lost whole families.

You told her you were with an offshoot of TWI, or someone who had been affiliated.

She doesn't know the ins and out, or about TWI, affiliates, etc.

All she knows it TWI negated the seriousness of the holocaust.

She knows you, heard "TWI" and associated the you, TWI, and anti-semitism.

I would cut her some slack.

Email her, gently explain your position, tell her you did not know, and tell her you apologize deeply if she was offended and how you value her friendship.

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VPW was anti-semitic.

You are entitled to your opinion but if VP were actually anti-Semitic he wouldn't have welcomed Jews to the ministry.

IF he were anti-Black, he wouldn't have welcomed blacks.

Politically speaking, I think that label is thrown around way too much and is used as a pretext to keep the billions flowing to Israel. Politicians are deathly afraid to be labelled that way so they just shut up and go with the program.

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And if the Way ministry hated Jews, I wouldn't have hung around for 19 years.

Folks I fellowshipped with, and folk who I studied with and under, came from Jewish heritage.

Edited by oldiesman

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I don't think VPW necessarily hated Jews, nor do I think he taught hatred of Jews. I think this was just one more "conspiracy theory" taught to the masses by TWI.

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I don't think VPW necessarily hated Jews, nor do I think he taught hatred of Jews. I think this was just one more "conspiracy theory" taught to the masses by TWI.

Agreed Abi.

I think that VPW sought out any knowledge that went across the traditional grain. The more he could do to distance himself from "the masses," the better. I think that the arcane served to keep folks glued to the ministry simply so they could feel like they were "in the know."

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You are entitled to your opinion but if VP were actually anti-Semitic he wouldn't have welcomed Jews to the ministry.

IF he were anti-Black, he wouldn't have welcomed blacks.

Politically speaking, I think that label is thrown around way too much and is used as a pretext to keep the billions flowing to Israel. Politicians are deathly afraid to be labelled that way so they just shut up and go with the program.

I agree that Wierwille enjoyed teaching things that went against the traditional grain...but I DO believe he was antisemitic.

I also think he was not only proud of his German heritage but also sympathized with Hitler and the nazi philosophy...

He went as far as saying that people who "thought" they were Jews, were not really the same Jews from the bible...Of course, he was totally wrong about this as he was about so many other things.

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He went as far as saying that people who "thought" they were Jews, were not really the same Jews from the bible...Of course, he was totally wrong about this as he was about so many other things.

you're saying the jews today are 2000 years old?

vp was in favor of any outreach that would send money to box 415 .. (is that right? 408? LOL)

jewish outreach ... black outreach ... piffle in espanol ... just show them the money ...

Edited by rhino

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I never heard VPW say "I hate the Jews."

However, here is what I did hear him say:

1. The Holocaust was not real.( "If you don't believe it, read the recommended books.")

2. "The Jews of today are not the 'true' Jews."(" The Jews of modern times are descendants of Attila The Hun".)

3. " When God brings Israel back together, he won't use jet planes to do it"

(This was in reference to the establishment of the nation of Israel after WWII.)

4."God gave up on Israel as being His 'chosen people' and that role now belongs to us."(TWI believers)

( Yes, those are quotation marks.)

Nope, never heard him say, "I hate the Jews."

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And if the Way ministry hated Jews, I wouldn't have hung around for 19 years.

Folks I fellowshipped with, and folk who I studied with and under, came from Jewish heritage.

Why, some of his best friends were Jews!

;)

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loy said "the Jews are not more God's chosen people than the Apache Indians.."

I wonder if he has that little gem decopaged on the cover of his resume..

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I can't say I really ever heard much of the anti-holocaust teachings during the 90's or early 21st century, but I remember the books they wanted us to read.. Never did read them.. All I remember was blindly agreeing with them about the Jews of today vs the Judeans of the Bible... Kind of felt stupid after leaving and realizing how stupid the argument is..

Course there's so much regarding the Jews and the Messianic community today that I have probably learned more about God from them than I did in TWI.. Although not trying to emphasize the learning aspect so much, since I basically worshipped the freakin scriptures while in TWI instead of the LIVING GOD.. So I try and deemphasize that now days....

Anyways,.... Anti-semitic..

Anti is a greek preposition right, meaning 'against' or 'in oppositino to' ??

So I think the term itself can be used in many varying degrees. Meaning VP was against the JEWS, not necesarily hatred for them, but against what they believed.. Therefore being anti-jewish... Especially teaching how they really aint even of Judean lineage! Against what they stood for and were trying to do (build the new Jewish nation).. I think Groucho could be right if in that context.

But many take anti-semitic to mean hatred for.. And although I never new vp, I never knew craiger to be of such thought.. But what do I know.. I'm just a little ol' puppy..

Can't it be taken both ways? Just depends on the context? Every word interprets itself in the verse right where it is written or in context, right?! lol.. <duck>

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Ya know, here's the thing that kinda frosts my apricots.

The original poster asked,"Did VPW really teach this"?

By the time you get to the end of page #1, it's been changed to " I don't believe TWI taught this."( paraphrased)

The poster did not ask what was taught in TWI, they asked, specifically if a particular person taught this.(VPW)

Either he did or he didn't, it's really quite simple.

Add a word, subtract a word, change a word--- what the heck, didn't ANYBODY pay attention to "Listening with a purpose"?

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The "Holocaust" is nothing more than a propaganda campaign fostered by Hollywood and the media to sell American's on remembering the Holocaust. It is becoming a ruling symbol of our culture. Hardly a month passes without a new TV production, a new film, a number of new books, and the flood is increasing rather than abating. From a relatively slow start we have come to a point where Jewish culture in particular and western culture more generally are saturated with the holocaust. The holocaust has saturated western culture to such an extent that it not only appears center stage but also lurks in the background. This is readily seen in the number of contemporary movies which includes the holocaust as plot or sub-plot. How did the holocaust come to play such a major role in contempory culture, especially in the US? A good part of the answer is that the Jews play a very important part and influencial role in Hollywood, the Television industry, and the newspaper magazine and book publishing worlds. Anyone who denies that this is a major factor behind the massive attention to the holocaust is being either naive or disengenuous.

In November 2005 a United Nations general assembly approved a resolution introduced by Isreal to designate January 27 as an International Holocaust Rememberance day. Every major American city has at least one Holocaust museum or memorial, and there are more than 250 memorials or museums worldwide, most in the US and Europe. The largest is in Washington, DC which is taxpayer funded run by a federal government agency and draws more than 2 million vistors a year. The public is continually reminded of Jewish suffering during WWII. Between 1989 and 2003 alone, more than 170 films with Holocaust themes were made. In many American and European schools and all Israeli classrooms a focus on the wartime suffering of Europes Jews is obligatory.

Just what is behind the "holocaust remembrance" campaign? Whose interests does it serve? Of course it is fitting and proper to remember victims of genocide, war and oppression. But Holocaust rememberance is NOT, as it supporters claim a nobel effort motivated by sincere concern for humanity. Instead, this relentless campaign is an expression of Jewish-Zionist power, and it is designed to further Jewish-Zionist interests. It is not a Jewish tragedy that is being remembered, it is Jewish power to which homage is paid. The holocaust rememberance campaign encourages sympathy and support for Jews and Israel. It helps to justify America's massive and ongoing support for Israel, and to excuse otherwise in-excuseable policies of the Zionist state. Among Jews it strengthens a feeling of group solidarity, and promotes a sense of community purpose. Norman Finklestein a Jewish scholar who teaches at DePaul University in Chicago writes in his best selling book, The Holocaust Industry: " Invoking the holocaust is a ploy to de-legitamize all criticism of Jews." He adds, "By conferring "total blamelessness" on Jews, the holocaust dogma immunizes Israel and American Jewry from legitamate censure. Organized American Jewry has exploited the Nazi holocaust to deflect criticism of Israel's and it's own morally indefensible policies."

Another professor of modern Jewish history at Yale University has observed: "With regard to Israel, the holocaust may be used to forstall public criticism and suppress debate. It reinforces the sense of Jews as an "eternally beleaguered people", who can rely for their defense only upon themselves. The invocation of the suffering endured by the Jews under the Nazi's often takes the place of rational argument, and it is expected to convince doubters of the legitamacy of current Israeli government policy." This view is echoed by another Jewish scholar, Tony Judd, who is director of the Remark Institute at New York University. "The Showa (the Hebrew term for holocaust) is frequently exploited in America and Israel to deflect and forbid any criticism of Israel. Indeed the holocaust of Europe's Jews is nowadays exploited thrice over. It gives American Jews in particular, a unique retrospective victim identity. It allows Israel to trump any other nations sufferings and justify it's own excesses with the claim that the Jewish catastrophy was unique and incomperable, and in contradiction to the first two, it is adduced as an "all-purpose metaphor" for evil - ANYWHERE, EVERYWHERE, and ALWAYS, and taught to school children all over America and Europe without any reference to cause or context. This modern instrumentalization of the holocaust for political advantage is ethically disreputable and politically imprudent."

In Israel, says Tom Segave, a prominent Israeli journalist and author, "The holocaust has become an object of worship." Moreover he writes, "The heritage of the holocaust as it is taught in Israel's schools and fostered in National memorial ceremonies, often encourages insular chauvinism, and a sense that the Nazi extermination of the Jews justifies any act that seems to contribute to Israel's security, including the oppression of the population and the territories occupied by Israel in the six day war. Another award winning Israeli journalist is even more blunt. Writing in a daily leading paper she says, "Israel has turned the liquidation of Euorpe's Jews into an asset. Our murdered relatives are being enlisted to enable Israel to continue 'not-giving-a-damn' about International decisions against the occupation. The suffering our parents endured in the ghettos and concentration camps that filled Europe, the physical and mental anquish and torment that our parents were subjected to every single day since the deliberation, are used as weapons to ford any International criticism of the society we are creating here. This is a society with built-in discrimination, on the basis of nationality, and the discrimination is spreading on either side of the green line. This is a society that is systematically continuing to bannish the Palestinian nation from it's land, and to usurp it's rights as a nation and its chances for a humane future."

The great lesson of the holocaust said Israel prime minister Ariel Sharone, is the Jews must, "always remain vigilant and trust no one but ourselves. Jews can rely only on themselves." Young Jews, he adds, "have the duty to bequeath the lesson, memories, and stories, to underscore the importance of the existance of the Jewish state." Underscoring the importance of the holocaust rememberance campaign for Zionist interests, is the fervently pro-Jewish agenda of the major rememberance organizations.

In the United States and Western Europe, non-Jewish victims of genocide, oppression and war do not merit the same consideration as do Jewish victims of the holocaust. There are no comfortable "museums", "memorials", or "solemn ceremonies" to commemorate for example, the vastly greater number of victims of Soviet and Chinese Communism. Americans and Europeans are trained and encouraged to know that: "Six Million Jews were murdered by the Nazi's in WWII!" But few people, even well educated ones, have any idea of how many Russians, Japanese, Poles, Germans, or Chinese lost their lives in that global conflict. Estimates of the number of Chinese for example, who lost their lives as direct and indirect victims of Japanese aggression and occupation during the 1930's and 40's range from about 10 millions to more than twice that number. Supporting and bolstering the holocaust campaign are "so-called" holocaust denial laws in France, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Switzerland, and several other European countries, as well as in Israel, that make it a crime to publically dispute the "official version" of holocaust history. Many individuals have been forced into prison, fined or into exile for their denail statements and daring to contest holocaust claims. These courageous individuals are the most prominent "prisoners of conscience" in Europe today.

Holocaust denial statutes uphold a blatant double-standard, that criminalizes writings and statements that Jews regard as offensive, while permitting publications that offend Christians, Muslims, and others. These laws sanction a privelaged status for Jews and Jewish-Zionist concerns. They make a mockery of European pretentions of tolerance and support, for "freedom of speech and opinion". These denial laws stiffle free and objective discussion of the holocaust issue. On the basis of these statutes many dozens of book titles have been banned, and thousands of books and other writings have been removed from libraries, confiscated from publishers, and destroyed. Europe's holocaust denial laws did not appear spontaneously. They are the result of a well organized campaign by powerful Jewish-Zionist groups, including the world Jewish congress, a campaign that has been supported by compliant non-Jewish politicians.

In March 1982, the London based Institute of Jewish Affairs together with the World Jewish Congress issued a report entitled: "Making the Denial of the Holocaust a Crime in Law." It layed out a detailed plan for holocaust denial legislation in countries around the world. The report concluded: "It is therefore essential to introduce special legal provisions against denial of the holocaust." In June 1998, the International Association of Jewish Lawyers and Jurists declared that denial statues already on the books in some nations were too lenient, and resolved for new and more severe denial laws in more countries. In the United States and Western Europe, the holocaust story is portrayed reverantially and as a central event of world history. For many Jews, says Rabbi Michael Goldberg a Jewish author and religious leader, "The veneration of the holocaust has become a new religion." He goes on to write, "As it is with any organized church, this holocaust cult has its own tenants of faith, rites, and shrines."

The Holocaust Rememberance Campaign reflects an arrogant view of Jews as a special and superior people. Abraham Foxman, head of the anti-defamation league. one of the most influential Zionist groups has declared, "The holocaust is something different. It is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide, but a near successful attempt on the life of God's choosen children and thus on God himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of creation as recorded in the Bible, and like it's direct opposite, which is relived weekly with the sabbath and yearly with the Torah, it must be remembered from generation to generation."

Jewish death and suffering DO NOT deserve to be memorialized and venerated more than the death and suffering of non-Jews. The holocaust rememberance campaign deserves not support, but scorn, because it is an insincere and one-sided effort that serves narrow Zionist interests and bolsters Jewish Zionist power. In spite of its impressive scope and influence, this campaign and its well organized backers are not invincible. Exposing and countering the holocaust rememberance campaign is a vital and urgent task for men and women of good will everywhere. Not only in the interest of basic justice and equity, but for the sake of world peace and humanity.

Edited by What The Hey

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The "Holocaust" is nothing more than a propaganda campaign fostered by Hollywood and the media to sell American's on remembering the Holocaust.

Actually, it's a historical event where millions of people, many of them Jews, were imprisoned

by the Nazis and most of them (the prisoners) were killed by the Nazis while imprisoned.

That's so well-documented by now that only the most severe Kool-Aid drinkers can bring

themselves to say "it didn't happen" "millions of Jews weren't slaughtered" and so on.

But for some people, there was no mass-murder, just a media event decades later about

some made-up problems.

It is becoming a ruling symbol of our culture. Hardly a month passes without a new TV production, a new film, a number of new books, and the flood is increasing rather than abating.
"Hardly a month."

So, from the last 12 months, you can name 10 different NEW TV productions, films, or books,

at least? Drawing from all 3 media? Shouldn't be hard if that's really happening,

and not just rhetoric from a poster....

Every major American city has at least one Holocaust museum or memorial

Got documentation for this claim?

EVERY major American city?

Is this hundreds of memorials,

or are you creatively redefining "major" so that there's only a few "major" cities?

and there are more than 250 memorials or museums worldwide, most in the US and Europe.
I'd expect the bulk of them in Europe, CLOSE TO WHERE IT HAPPENED.

I'm doubtful there's fully 250, but there's probably many that represent specific people,

memorializing THEM, and those are being added together to make a false impression....

The largest is in Washington, DC which is taxpayer funded run by a federal government agency and draws more than 2 million vistors a year. The public is continually reminded of Jewish suffering during WWII. Between 1989 and 2003 alone, more than 170 films with Holocaust themes were made. In many American and European schools and all Israeli classrooms a focus on the wartime suffering of Europes Jews is obligatory.

Wasn't in my education. How many American schools in this "many"?

And ONE Holocaust museum for the entire country hardly suffices as emphasis.

There's more than one museum in this country just for aeronautics,

one in the same town as that Holocaust museum.

And so on, for many other subjects (the American Indian, Natural History, Criminology...)

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Now,

those of you arriving late may have missed some details.

I shall recap, and you can see the documentation all over the longer Holocaust thread.

For those of you wondering-because you never were there when vpw said anything

denying the Holocaust-

there's an amazing correlation on the GSC between the tiny handful of posters who've

argued against the Holocaust-

"it didn't happen"

"the numbers were inflated"

"there were no crematoriums used to incinerate Jews"

"it's all a Zionist plot"

and the tiny handful of posters who keep putting forth that vpw was some sort of

spectacular guy.

Every single Holocaust denier on this board is a vpw-promoter.

Every single one.

(I haven't checked if every single vpw-promoter is also a Holocaust denier.)

I ask you,

if Holocaust denial wasn't part and parcel of what vpw taught them,

why the connection?

vpw-apologists are often quick to claim that anything they don't like wasn't vpw's

fault at all- but the fault of those who came along later.

Why, then, embrace this faulty, demagogue-based ideology of Holocaust denial?

I think this is at LEAST as strong a testimony as the poster who posted what

they heard vpw say directly.

In other words,

"This is your brain on vpw. Any questions?"

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... EVERY major American city?

Is this hundreds of memorials,

or are you creatively redefining "major" so that there's only a few "major" cities?

I'd expect the bulk of them in Europe, CLOSE TO WHERE IT HAPPENED.

I'm doubtful there's fully 250, but there's probably many that represent specific people,

memorializing THEM, and those are being added together to make a false impression....

Wasn't in my education. How many American schools in this "many"?

And ONE Holocaust museum for the entire country hardly suffices as emphasis.

There's more than one museum in this country just for aeronautics,

one in the same town as that Holocaust museum.

And so on, for many other subjects (the American Indian, Natural History, Criminology...)

I won't attempt to answer every comment you made, (it's too late in the evening for that now) but here is link to a list of just a few of the Holocaust memorials and museums:

Holocaust memorials

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