Not only did I never hear VPW speak in tongues/interpret, I never even saw him make a personal appearance, of any sort, whatsoever, during my multiple-year stay at The Way of Ohio, which, figuratively speaking, was "just down the road".
All you Paul (who traveled extensively) comparison buffs can just put that in your pipe and smoke it.
By the way, it seemed to me that when he spoke in tongues in the class, he was saying the same thing over again. "Lo shanta, ala ma seeta...etc. Gosh, I hope I didn't spell anything wrong in that last sentence.
I heard him ONCE. And the above is exactly what it sounded like. I remember thinking it sounded just like him in the class (memorized?). It definitely sounded, the thought I had at the time was, immature and like he hadn't had much practice.
I hated SIT, never sat right with my stomach. All the adults said it was supernatural, I'll understand when I'm 45.
SIT was stupid.
Did I mention I hated SIT?
From my 24 years in twi...........in twigs, in classes, in excellor sessions, in branch meetings MOST HATED the "interpretation of tongues" MORE than speaking in tongues. Sure, there were those 10% who liked to "prove" their spiritual status and all, but for most it was like a trip to the dentist.
After all, this was the "gist and substance" of that which Almighty God wanted to tell His people. Never mind that these interpretation of tongues was extremely repetitive.........YOU NEEDED TO HEAR IT AGAIN.
I must admit, there were many branch meetings or outdoor settings that I skipped 'em.
Just sittin' here trying to catch up and my stomach hurts just reading this stuff. We can't put God in a box or the holy spirit for that matter. We can't tell the holy spirit when to operate! How obnoxious of us. How ridiculous to even think we had such ability. There are no rules and regulations about whatever you want to call them; gifts, manifestations, etc. Like we could tell God "it's time for a prophecy here." Pulease.... I don't know if we are all supposed to speak in tongues. Do I think some people should? Sure. Do I think my eternal life depends on it? NO. Therefore, you want to do it? Rock on. Just don't try and tell me what I am supposed to do and don't try and tell God what and when He is supposed to do it either.
I certainly heard a lot if repetitive tongues in my time yet the interpretation was always very different.
Reminds me of that chap from the Iraq Information Ministry spoof website during the Iraq War or the endless versions of the Scene from Downfall of Adolf and his henchmen that used to appear on you tube.
As queen of the ''excellor sessions'' (and yes, many many many OOOHS , AHHHS, for me)
I will tell you......
~I made most of it up....( I confess) I was a true practiced linguist
Let me back up ........God can,will and does whatever HE pleases. (i give you Romans 9)
but, to stay on topic, If I recall......Tongues, according to Corinthians, is for the UNSAVED. A SIGN.
That God is huge, present, real and bigger than all other gods...how?
by being ''a sign'' to the ''unbeliever'' by hearing it IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE!!!!!
(I am stating this to those who believe in God and the bible).
I am not saying that we who have this GIFT or mani or whatever, can't do it personally. According to 1 Cor 14 we should. I personally think on a daily basis it's not essential, but that is my paradigm right now...
But, in public, Prophesy benefits others hands down.
I guess what I am saying, is that practicinga Holy Spirit working is ludicrous.
It either IS or ISN'T (INSPIRATION).
SIT publicly is GOD ALMIGHTY's way to SAVE PEOPLE!!
and
HE should GET ALL THE GLORY.
thanks for reading. That is my story and I 'm sticking to it.
Is it remotely possible victor paul wierwille ever faked speaking in tongues?
Rather than answer that ourselves, let's let vpw answer this one for himself.
He did that, in "The Way:Living in Love", pg-198.
Some guys prayed with him, for him to receive speaking in tongues for the first time.
"...and finally one of them said 'Speak another language.' So I
spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started
jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn't know Greek.
They said I had received and told me to speak in another language.
So I did. I spoke in Hebrew-quoted from Genesis, and they just got all
excited, congratulating themselves about it.
But in my heart, I knew I wasn't speaking in tongues. You see, they'd
just told me to speak in another language; they never taught me or
showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said 'another language'
and I spoke another language."
Mind you, I find it a little peculiar none of the people there could recognize
the words in either language, and none of them were "tuned in" well enough to
hear that they had a fraud on their hands. Then again, its possible that they
trusted the supposed Christian at face value in spite of any doubts.
Anyway, according to vpw, he faked speaking in tongues back then.
The one thing I can trust vpw on is any testimony from vpw as to how vpw was a liar.
I realize that I'm very late posting this, but I don't think VP knew Greek or Hebrew. On another tape years ago I distinctly remember him saying that he didn't know Greek but that "you couldn't fool him on it".
I realize that I'm very late posting this, but I don't think VP knew Greek or Hebrew. On another tape years ago I distinctly remember him saying that he didn't know Greek but that "you couldn't fool him on it".
Didn't he once say that, at an incident which occurred before he was led into tongues, he fooled those present by reciting Greek? And, so, now we have him saying he didn't know Greek. Can't be both. What I think probably happened was he may have known a few Greek or Greek-like sounding words and used that as sort of a "foundation" for his glossolalia. Either that or he made the whole incident up. There may be other possibilities but I can't think of any.
Beep Beep Beep----Boop Boop Boop----Isn't that wonderful?
Didn't he once say that, at an incident which occurred before he was led into tongues, he fooled those present by reciting Greek? And, so, now we have him saying he didn't know Greek. Can't be both. What I think probably happened was he may have known a few Greek or Greek-like sounding words and used that as sort of a "foundation" for his glossolalia. Either that or he made the whole incident up. There may be other possibilities but I can't think of any.
Beep Beep Beep----Boop Boop Boop----Isn't that wonderful?
I seem to remember that he stated he had quoted the first chapter of John's gospel in Greek when he did this act of fooling...
I seem to remember that he stated he had quoted the first chapter of John's gospel in Greek when he did this act of fooling...
Oh, my word!
Can you imagine him ever having a firm enough grasp on Greek to be able to quote an entire chapter??? Even if it was only a portion of the chapter, I find it incredulous. The man was clearly either delusional or a pathological liar.
Is it remotely possible victor paul wierwille ever faked speaking in tongues?
Rather than answer that ourselves, let's let vpw answer this one for himself.
He did that, in "The Way:Living in Love", pg-198.
Some guys prayed with him, for him to receive speaking in tongues for the first time.
"...and finally one of them said 'Speak another language.' So I
spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started
jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn't know Greek.
They said I had received and told me to speak in another language.
So I did. I spoke in Hebrew-quoted from Genesis, and they just got all
excited, congratulating themselves about it.
But in my heart, I knew I wasn't speaking in tongues. You see, they'd
just told me to speak in another language; they never taught me or
showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said 'another language'
and I spoke another language."
Mind you, I find it a little peculiar none of the people there could recognize
the words in either language, and none of them were "tuned in" well enough to
hear that they had a fraud on their hands. Then again, its possible that they
trusted the supposed Christian at face value in spite of any doubts.
Anyway, according to vpw, he faked speaking in tongues back then.
The one thing I can trust vpw on is any testimony from vpw as to how vpw was a liar.
I also question that no one recognized that he was speaking Greek; but then again Wierwille mangled Greek so badly maybe they just couldn't tell
I realize that I'm very late posting this, but I don't think VP knew Greek or Hebrew. On another tape years ago I distinctly remember him saying that he didn't know Greek but that "you couldn't fool him on it".
Didn't he once say that, at an incident which occurred before he was led into tongues, he fooled those present by reciting Greek? And, so, now we have him saying he didn't know Greek. Can't be both. What I think probably happened was he may have known a few Greek or Greek-like sounding words and used that as sort of a "foundation" for his glossolalia. Either that or he made the whole incident up. There may be other possibilities but I can't think of any.
Beep Beep Beep----Boop Boop Boop----Isn't that wonderful?
I seem to remember that he stated he had quoted the first chapter of John's gospel in Greek when he did this act of fooling...
Oh, my word!
Can you imagine him ever having a firm enough grasp on Greek to be able to quote an entire chapter??? Even if it was only a portion of the chapter, I find it incredulous. The man was clearly either delusional or a pathological liar.
The more we look at it, the more obvious it was that vpw just piled lies on top of more lies
whenever he got the chance.
Of COURSE he didn't know any Hebrew or Greek. He may have picked up a phrase here or there
(we do that sometimes with other languages), but even after decades with twi, he didn't know GREEK,
let alone HEBREW, and he never studied EITHER. (His degree was in HOMILETICS, which is a MUCH "softer"
option than Bible languages.)
But his claim that he tricked some honest Christians- and was lying about it-
fits into his self-image. vpw imagined himself some sort of spiritual maverick who could
continuously fool authorities and confound them, tweaking their noses without consequence,
and somehow prospering while doing that. He imagined he was amazingly clever.
Of course, all of that, lie though it was, set him up for the BIGGER lies about J.E. Stiles
and how important vpw supposedly was......
Mind you, the claim Stiles was told to go to Tulsa by God Almighty and "record of snow" is based on an
account purely from vpw and no other source:
page 198, "The Way:Living in Love":
""So I left the meeting, slipped out, went to my hotel and called the airport. I was all set to check out. But a funny thing had happened-
there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded, So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-they were all snowed in. The buses-same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!
Well, I called back the airport, and they said they could put me on standby for the night. I asked the girl on the phone, 'Does this happen all the time?' She said, 'No, this is the first time.' "Doctor punctuates his story with a rumbling laugh. He continues his account, pointing the car squarely towards the widening patch of blue sky."
"The next morning, I still hadn't left town. I went to breakfast at the hotel, sat down next to a straight guy. He looked me over and recognized me. He began, 'Aren't you the Evangelical and Reformed preacher who spoke in tongues last night?' I said, 'Yes, but it was a da*n lie.' Then he said he knew I was dam*ed because I cussed. That ended our conversation. Then a woman came over to me, and said, 'I think God sent a man here to meet your need. Meet me at 9am.' I thought,
'Women never tell the truth.' But then I reconsidered, since I was stuck in town anyway. So I decided to meet her. I got to the place she said at 9am, and there she was. She introduced me to a man named J.E. Stiles. He'd come in from the West Coast. A few days before, God had told him to go to Tulsa to minister the holy spirit to one man. We talked for a few minutes, and he suggested we gointo the rally to hear Oral Roberts and then meet for lunch. So that's what we did. At lunchtime Stiles came in with his wife and the pianist. I just remember thinking to myself,
'There aren't going to be any women around when I get the holy spirit.'"
Now, concerning this blizzard in Tulsa, we also know this...
"The Tulsa Tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees [Farenheit], and the overnight
low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in 'Climatological Data for Oklahoma'
show only 5/10 an inch of snow in Dec 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec 20. NEITHER date concurs with
Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop ALL BUSSES AND TRAINS.
Way Corps graduate Barries Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention,
December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by 'the Voice of Healing' magazine, and that Wierwille stayed
at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973.) Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport
do NOT record a snowstorm at that time. When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts
by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called
the airport, train station and bus station. (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for LYING to him
about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!)"
Learning to read the Greek alphabet isn't that difficult in my opinion, most of the letters bear a resemblance to the letters that we use (is 'Roman' letters the correct term?), but Hebrew and Aramaic characters are a lot tougher, a lot more different.
Most of the "research" that was promoted by Wierwille and The Way didn't really require an ability to even transliterate Greek characters, let alone read and understand the language. Just look up your word in a Young's concordance and there you go. I knew many people who owned interlinears, a study aid where you should at least be able to read the Greek letters, but just looked at the word-for-word English translation above the text.
While there were folks who had some real research chops in The Way, nothing Wierwille ever did or said convinced me that he was one of them.
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waysider
Not only did I never hear VPW speak in tongues/interpret, I never even saw him make a personal appearance, of any sort, whatsoever, during my multiple-year stay at The Way of Ohio, which, figuratively speaking, was "just down the road".
All you Paul (who traveled extensively) comparison buffs can just put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Bolshevik
Don't feel bad, I never saw him in person either. :P
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waysider
Oh, I don't feel bad. In fact, I feel quite enlightened about the whole matter.
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Oakspear
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Bolshevik
I'd been SITing since before I can remember, very little . . . funny thing . . . the older I got . . . the more nervous/uncomfortable it made me . . .
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excathedra
did i start this thread? i tried to read most of it but i got bored
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Bolshevik
HA roflol!
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WOG
I heard him ONCE. And the above is exactly what it sounded like. I remember thinking it sounded just like him in the class (memorized?). It definitely sounded, the thought I had at the time was, immature and like he hadn't had much practice.
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skyrider
From my 24 years in twi...........in twigs, in classes, in excellor sessions, in branch meetings MOST HATED the "interpretation of tongues" MORE than speaking in tongues. Sure, there were those 10% who liked to "prove" their spiritual status and all, but for most it was like a trip to the dentist.
After all, this was the "gist and substance" of that which Almighty God wanted to tell His people. Never mind that these interpretation of tongues was extremely repetitive.........YOU NEEDED TO HEAR IT AGAIN.
I must admit, there were many branch meetings or outdoor settings that I skipped 'em.
<_<
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waysider
"Isn't that beauuuuuutiful?"
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excathedra
lo shanta malaca SINta (or whatever)
can i get that young girl on the coach ?
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irisheyes
Just sittin' here trying to catch up and my stomach hurts just reading this stuff. We can't put God in a box or the holy spirit for that matter. We can't tell the holy spirit when to operate! How obnoxious of us. How ridiculous to even think we had such ability. There are no rules and regulations about whatever you want to call them; gifts, manifestations, etc. Like we could tell God "it's time for a prophecy here." Pulease.... I don't know if we are all supposed to speak in tongues. Do I think some people should? Sure. Do I think my eternal life depends on it? NO. Therefore, you want to do it? Rock on. Just don't try and tell me what I am supposed to do and don't try and tell God what and when He is supposed to do it either.
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WordWolf
It's been brought up before, but no one's brought it up recently.
vpw supposedly spoke in tongues lots of times on camera- in the taped class,
at ROA keynote teachings, etc.
How many people noticed that it always seemed to be the exact same sentence no matter
what the year, location or context?
Whatever "Lashanta malo kasita laSHONta" means, can it possibly apply to all those
situations?
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WordWolf
=========================
Is it remotely possible victor paul wierwille ever faked speaking in tongues?
Rather than answer that ourselves, let's let vpw answer this one for himself.
He did that, in "The Way:Living in Love", pg-198.
Some guys prayed with him, for him to receive speaking in tongues for the first time.
"...and finally one of them said 'Speak another language.' So I
spoke in Greek. I quoted the first chapter of John. Well, they started
jumping up and down. They thought it was great. They didn't know Greek.
They said I had received and told me to speak in another language.
So I did. I spoke in Hebrew-quoted from Genesis, and they just got all
excited, congratulating themselves about it.
But in my heart, I knew I wasn't speaking in tongues. You see, they'd
just told me to speak in another language; they never taught me or
showed me the accuracy of the Word on this. They said 'another language'
and I spoke another language."
Mind you, I find it a little peculiar none of the people there could recognize
the words in either language, and none of them were "tuned in" well enough to
hear that they had a fraud on their hands. Then again, its possible that they
trusted the supposed Christian at face value in spite of any doubts.
Anyway, according to vpw, he faked speaking in tongues back then.
The one thing I can trust vpw on is any testimony from vpw as to how vpw was a liar.
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Oakspear
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Trefor Heywood
I certainly heard a lot if repetitive tongues in my time yet the interpretation was always very different.
Reminds me of that chap from the Iraq Information Ministry spoof website during the Iraq War or the endless versions of the Scene from Downfall of Adolf and his henchmen that used to appear on you tube.
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bliss
wow.
missed all this huh?
here is my fly- by comment.
As queen of the ''excellor sessions'' (and yes, many many many OOOHS , AHHHS, for me)
I will tell you......
~I made most of it up....( I confess) I was a true practiced linguist
Let me back up ........God can, will and does whatever HE pleases. (i give you Romans 9)
but, to stay on topic, If I recall......Tongues, according to Corinthians, is for the UNSAVED. A SIGN.
That God is huge, present, real and bigger than all other gods...how?
by being ''a sign'' to the ''unbeliever'' by hearing it IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE!!!!!
(I am stating this to those who believe in God and the bible).
I am not saying that we who have this GIFT or mani or whatever, can't do it personally. According to 1 Cor 14 we should. I personally think on a daily basis it's not essential, but that is my paradigm right now...
But, in public, Prophesy benefits others hands down.
I guess what I am saying, is that practicing a Holy Spirit working is ludicrous.
It either IS or ISN'T (INSPIRATION).
SIT publicly is GOD ALMIGHTY's way to SAVE PEOPLE!!
and
HE should GET ALL THE GLORY.
thanks for reading. That is my story and I 'm sticking to it.
I love you all, amen.
hi Excie!!!
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Broken Arrow
I realize that I'm very late posting this, but I don't think VP knew Greek or Hebrew. On another tape years ago I distinctly remember him saying that he didn't know Greek but that "you couldn't fool him on it".
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waysider
Didn't he once say that, at an incident which occurred before he was led into tongues, he fooled those present by reciting Greek? And, so, now we have him saying he didn't know Greek. Can't be both. What I think probably happened was he may have known a few Greek or Greek-like sounding words and used that as sort of a "foundation" for his glossolalia. Either that or he made the whole incident up. There may be other possibilities but I can't think of any.
Beep Beep Beep----Boop Boop Boop----Isn't that wonderful?
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Trefor Heywood
I seem to remember that he stated he had quoted the first chapter of John's gospel in Greek when he did this act of fooling...
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waysider
Oh, my word!
Can you imagine him ever having a firm enough grasp on Greek to be able to quote an entire chapter??? Even if it was only a portion of the chapter, I find it incredulous. The man was clearly either delusional or a pathological liar.
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WordWolf
The more we look at it, the more obvious it was that vpw just piled lies on top of more lies
whenever he got the chance.
Of COURSE he didn't know any Hebrew or Greek. He may have picked up a phrase here or there
(we do that sometimes with other languages), but even after decades with twi, he didn't know GREEK,
let alone HEBREW, and he never studied EITHER. (His degree was in HOMILETICS, which is a MUCH "softer"
option than Bible languages.)
But his claim that he tricked some honest Christians- and was lying about it-
fits into his self-image. vpw imagined himself some sort of spiritual maverick who could
continuously fool authorities and confound them, tweaking their noses without consequence,
and somehow prospering while doing that. He imagined he was amazingly clever.
Of course, all of that, lie though it was, set him up for the BIGGER lies about J.E. Stiles
and how important vpw supposedly was......
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Trefor Heywood
I don't know even if VPW could actually read the Greek in the Greek alphabet.
Let alone Hebrew or the Estrangelo Aramaic ones.
If not his claims to scholarship have to become suspect to begin with.
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Oakspear
Learning to read the Greek alphabet isn't that difficult in my opinion, most of the letters bear a resemblance to the letters that we use (is 'Roman' letters the correct term?), but Hebrew and Aramaic characters are a lot tougher, a lot more different.
Most of the "research" that was promoted by Wierwille and The Way didn't really require an ability to even transliterate Greek characters, let alone read and understand the language. Just look up your word in a Young's concordance and there you go. I knew many people who owned interlinears, a study aid where you should at least be able to read the Greek letters, but just looked at the word-for-word English translation above the text.
While there were folks who had some real research chops in The Way, nothing Wierwille ever did or said convinced me that he was one of them.
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