I vaguely recall someone teaching (in TWI) that when we speak too much about devil spirits (and their power) we glorify the Devil instead of glorifying God's power over the devil spirit realm. Anyone else recall hearing a teaching along this line?
Awh shucks AD. :) That's nice considering I don't start many :)
Larry, I can't recall a HQ directed teaching on not talking too much about dvspirits. It def could've been shared locally though.
Well, I don't know who originally taught it but I do know it was something I taught. I just don't remember the specifics these days. I remember people thinking that devil spirits were like hiding behind every bush or back-alley and talked so much about that that my thinking and speech was -- Look here folks, shouldn't you be speaking about the power of God instead of the power of devil spirits so much?
I vaguely recall someone teaching (in TWI) that when we speak too much about devil spirits (and their power) we glorify the Devil instead of glorifying God's power over the devil spirit realm. Anyone else recall hearing a teaching along this line?
Yes I remember that. I think it was just another fear tactic. How can you ever teach anything if you can't talk about it??
Now, if it was tarot cards or ijoua boards then he!! no..........but fairies?
To each his or her own of course, but my wife and I made $850 in three hours reading those devilish tarot cards for a local company's employee appreciation day
Although I disagree with your friend's conclusions, it makes sense within the context of their beliefs. From a certain mindset it makes sense to eschew books like Harry Potter which do indeed promote a belief in magic, especially if you believe that magic is not from your god. same with fairies, if their not angels, then what are they? I think that these folks are wrong, but they're consistant.
I was taught that - like when something bad happens and someone says, "Well, the adversary is working on me hard." It was glorifying the adversary instead of putting God first with a response like, "God, I can't wait to see how you get me out of this one."
As for fairies and magic -- yes they are kids but those kind of things are not glorified in the Word. Especially magic. You can teach your children about the power of God and he protects and is bigger than anything and everything. I would also maybe have a talk with the parents, not in a harsh tone but especially about "the devil coming into daddies room and suffocating him." I would ask what that is about and explain that it scares the children.
Also, tell them people are entitled to their opinions whether you believe they true or not is up to you.
Some pagan/ Wiccans believe-- and feel they have historical data--that goddess friendly religions with women priestesses were once around. With the rise of patriarchal religions, those were demonized, as were their women priestesses. etc. So some of the 'witches are bad bad' might be related to that change in religion and society.
House and land spirits( brownies, little people) were common in preChristian times. Some see a corelation between those and fairies.
The goddess Diana...who might be De anu...Danu... (Danube river,Tuatha De Dannan--Celtic mythology) may have some relation to fairies or house/land spirits.
To each his or her own of course, but my wife and I made $850 in three hours reading those devilish tarot cards for a local company's employee appreciation day
You "Simon the Sorceror" you ;)
I like Sci-fi. I remember Loy yelling and screaming about how devilish "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" was - but I liked the movie and I never bought into his reasoning.
I like SOME fantasy - but not all. My kids get to read what interests them. The oldest got interested in the "Eragon" series - about a dragon. It was written by a young man when he was 16. His older sister illustrated the cover.
I figure God isn't so weak that he can't work around a few books.
I was wondering the same thing waysider. Faeries or fairies? If they're your garden variety San Francisco spank-my-tush-and-call-me-Nancy fairies, or the fun-loving kind of fable and yore.
Speaking of which bliss - I bet you'd love this movie if you haven't seen it - Photographing Faries
A poignant, sometimes sad but very exhilerating movie. The cinematography is great.
On the children - I think you'd be wise to talk to your kids (if you haven't) about where you stand on the topic, primarily from the standpoint of defining how you see the devil and "devilish" influences. At least so they're not left thinking the devil may come in their rooms and try to hump them or something. Seriously, we've had friends who would get spooked at all kinds of completely benign things - we let our kids know how we felt. Namely, we're good people, we do believe that God blesses us and protects us as a Father and while there's evil in the world, we don't have to fear it. Anything gets in our rooms uninvited late at night will end up on the sidewalk for the police to pick up what's left. I never let them get off into the boogie-man mindset about the devil. F-him and anything that seeks to put a hurt on me or mine. That's my motto.
F'rinstance, we never taught our kids about Santa Claus, being good or bad or godly or devilish or anything of the kind. Santa Dude was similar to a cartoon or movie character, entertainment. Along the way our kids picked up from others and TV, etc. that Santa Clause was kind of presented as a "real" person. The idea of giving to others to make them happy isn't a bad idea, overall.
Now our son thought "really????" Cool, no way!!?? A guy brings stuff once a year??? Toys!? Where do I sign up!!!?
Our daughter was creeped out by it. An old guy sneaks into our house at night? When? We don't have a chimney in Florida, how's he get in? So the idea of leaving cookies and milk out was a mixed gesture on her part, didn't make sense. Go to the door, Dad will let you in, leave the toys, beat it.
So we explained gently to them that all was well, but the idea was warm and fuzzy if you didn't take it too far. Nothing wrong with it, but no, that's not why they should be good all year.
On another note - the topic should also cover "angels" if we're talking about spirit beings of whatever stripe. Why's the devil get free reign but angels just stand by and watch? Doesn't make sense, in context.
I thoroughly enjoy Tolkiens books - they're stories. Good and evil, big message stuff, plus exciting characters. Nazgul. Hobbits. I don't see the big deal. It's entertainment.
Once upon a time, there was a mean, vicious, little demon from hell that lived in a drambuie bottle...it would whisper, "C'mon Vic, drink a little more and then get Howard to bring that young girl to the motorcoach"...Vic would say..."Yeah, they all belong to me anyway..."
I was taught that - like when something bad happens and someone says, "Well, the adversary is working on me hard." It was glorifying the adversary instead of putting God first with a response like, "God, I can't wait to see how you get me out of this one."
You weren't taught that in TWI, were you, Outfield?
Well, I don't know who originally taught it but I do know it was something I taught. I just don't remember the specifics these days. I remember people thinking that devil spirits were like hiding behind every bush or back-alley and talked so much about that that my thinking and speech was -- Look here folks, shouldn't you be speaking about the power of God instead of the power of devil spirits so much?
Like much of TWI - what they said and what they did were two totally different things..... you do remember the classes 100% devoted to devil spirits, don't you? DTA and many AC specials.... don't even get me started on the number of STS tapes on nothing but devil spirit infiltration and the devil spirit possessed egg sucking world.
I vaguely recall someone teaching (in TWI) that when we speak too much about devil spirits (and their power) we glorify the Devil instead of glorifying God's power over the devil spirit realm. Anyone else recall hearing a teaching along this line?
I also remember hearing this. Maybe it was from one of LCM's SNS tapes close to the end of his tenure? Either that, or perhaps from his version of the Advanced Class.
In TWI the "adversary" was always out to get us. UNLESS leadership wasn't happy with us, then we were "missing it" somewhere. Bad things happening to leadership was always because they were "standing in the gap" - they never "missed it", of course.
I never ever, ever heard what you heard from someone in TWI.
I vaguely recall someone teaching (in TWI) that when we speak too much about devil spirits (and their power) we glorify the Devil instead of glorifying God's power over the devil spirit realm. Anyone else recall hearing a teaching along this line?
I heard that too but can't remember where from.
Maybe "Dealing with the Adversary" or one of the many Sunday night cassette tapes of which I still own a trunk load of.
Well, I don't know who originally taught it but I do know it was something I taught. I just don't remember the specifics these days. I remember people thinking that devil spirits were like hiding behind every bush or back-alley and talked so much about that that my thinking and speech was -- Look here folks, shouldn't you be speaking about the power of God instead of the power of devil spirits so much?
I guess they shouldn't have been teaching Dealing with the Adversary or the PFAL Advanced Class then. There sure was a lot of talk about the devil and his "modus operandi" in those classes.
I vaguely recall someone teaching (in TWI) that when we speak too much about devil spirits (and their power) we glorify the Devil instead of glorifying God's power over the devil spirit realm. Anyone else recall hearing a teaching along this line?
As I recall, that comprised the reasoning behind the "Idiom of Permission" - Yawheh took credit for all the evil the Devil did throughout the OT so the devil would not become glorified.
Socks, "Photographing Faeries" was a great movie! I wish they would release it on dvd already.
I also loved the music throughout; had to go out and pick up a copy of Beethoven's Symphony No.7.
In fact, I think I'll bring that to work with me tonight.
Like much of TWI - what they said and what they did were two totally different things..... you do remember the classes 100% devoted to devil spirits, don't you? No, I don't. I remember sections of classes devoted to devil spirits. DTA and many AC specials.... don't even get me started on the number of STS tapes on nothing but devil spirit infiltration and the devil spirit possessed egg sucking world.
Do you remember the book "Angels of Light"? I think it was the book that detailed what devil spirit was involved in the behavior of people. Interesting book but, anyone reading it could quite easily forget that it takes the manifestation of discerning of spirits to determine the presence or non-presence of spirits and if present the identity of the spirit. It became a case where people were analyzing behavior and via sense knowledge determining the type of spirit. I suppose with such knowledge none of us really needed the manifestation of discerning of spirits. Some people couldn't handle reading that book because they started looking at themselves and wonder if they were possessed. Like I said -- interesting book -- but devoid of authority. If we can use a book's info to determine what devil spirit is present in an individual then why would God give us the ability to operate the manifestation of discerning of spirits?
I remember an occasion where a TC brought to fellowship someone who scared the crap outta everyone. He was a bit weird. The TC came to me a little while after the fellowship and asked if I would take the man home. Everyone else (he said) was afraid to get into a car with the man because they thought he was devil spirit possessed. I said sure -- no problem. I had a pretty good conversation with him on the way home. He was polite and thanked me for the ride home. I think their fear was a result of all this sense-knowledge info and definitely a sign of their lack of trust in God. So tell me -- in their case -- who was glorified -- God or the Devil?
ok I know while in The Way, I totally shunned any movie or book that had witches, fairies or magic.
I know it's innocent. Kinda like when I was so crass to say ''Jesus wasn't born today, (xmas)". or "There is no Santa Claus"..........People looked at me the way I am reacting to him I guess..... <_< <_<
I think sometimes kids talk about the things they think will impress others kids the most so that may be why they're dwelling on this with your kids, going for the shock value.
But I know my views on "fairy stories" have changed quite a bit in the past few years. C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein have convinced me that most fairy or fanatsy type stories are healthy for children and adults and arouse in us "desire" for other worlds, not like ours, in other words for heaven. They arouse hope in us for a another world, not like ours. Here are some quotes from Lewis and Tolkein that have changed my views on the subject:
J.R.R. Tolkein from "On Fairy Stories"
"The peculiar quality of the ‘joy' in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. It is not only a ‘consolation' for the sorrow of this world, but a satisfaction, and an answer to that question, ‘Is it true?' . . . In the ‘eucatastrophe' we see in brief vision that the answer may be greater–it may be a far-off gleam or echo of evangelium in the real world . . . The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories. They contain many marvels–peculiarly artistic, beautiful, and moving: ‘mythical' in their perfect, self-contained significance; and among the marvels is the greatest and most complete conceivable eucatastrophe. But this story [i.e. the Christian Story] has entered History and the primary world; the desire and aspiration of sub-creation [those who write and enjoy fanatasy literature] has been raised to the fulfillment of Creation. The Birth of Christ is the eucatastrophe of Man's history. The Resurrection is the eucatastrophe of the story of the Incarnation. This story begins and ends in joy. It has pre-eminently the ‘inner consistency of reality'. There is no tale ever told that men would rather find was true" (Peculiar Joy and the Christian Story).
C.S. Lewis from "On Stories"
"It would be much truer to say that fairy land arouses a longing for he knows not what. It stirs and troubles him (to his life-long enrichment) with the dim sense of something beyond his reach and, far from dulling or emptying the actual world, gives it a new dimension of depth. He does not despise real woods because he has read of enchanted woods; the reading makes all real woods a little enchanted..."
"And I think it possible that by confining your child to blameless stories of child life in which nothing at all alarming ever happens, you would fail to banish the terrors, and would succeed in banishing all that can ennoble them or make them endurable. For in fairy tales, side by side with the terrible figures, we find the immemorial comforters and protectors, the radiant ones; and the terrible figures are not merely terrible, but sublime. It would be nice if no little boy in bed, hearing, or thinking he hears, a sound, were ever at all frightened. But if he is going to be frightened, I think it better that he should think of giants and dragons than merely of burglars. And I think St. George, or any bright champion in armour , is a better comfort than the idea of the police."
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polar bear
The Way definately made too much fuss about the spirit realm. We never want to instill fear in people, especially our kids.
Perhaps you could talk to the parents. They may not be aware of what their kids are saying.
You could ask them that they teach their kids not to push their groups doctrines on others.
If they don't heed your request I'd stay away from religious folks who push their doctrines on my kids.
There are plenty of good folks out there, who don't have issues like this.
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anotherDan
Bliss, you start very cool threads.
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Larry N Moore
I vaguely recall someone teaching (in TWI) that when we speak too much about devil spirits (and their power) we glorify the Devil instead of glorifying God's power over the devil spirit realm. Anyone else recall hearing a teaching along this line?
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bliss
Awh shucks AD. :) That's nice considering I don't start many :)
Larry, I can't recall a HQ directed teaching on not talking too much about dvspirits. It def could've been shared locally though.
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Larry N Moore
Well, I don't know who originally taught it but I do know it was something I taught. I just don't remember the specifics these days. I remember people thinking that devil spirits were like hiding behind every bush or back-alley and talked so much about that that my thinking and speech was -- Look here folks, shouldn't you be speaking about the power of God instead of the power of devil spirits so much?
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Rejoice
Yes I remember that. I think it was just another fear tactic. How can you ever teach anything if you can't talk about it??
And, remember who was teaching us WHAT to think!
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Oakspear
Although I disagree with your friend's conclusions, it makes sense within the context of their beliefs. From a certain mindset it makes sense to eschew books like Harry Potter which do indeed promote a belief in magic, especially if you believe that magic is not from your god. same with fairies, if their not angels, then what are they? I think that these folks are wrong, but they're consistant.
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Outfield
Larry and all,
I was taught that - like when something bad happens and someone says, "Well, the adversary is working on me hard." It was glorifying the adversary instead of putting God first with a response like, "God, I can't wait to see how you get me out of this one."
As for fairies and magic -- yes they are kids but those kind of things are not glorified in the Word. Especially magic. You can teach your children about the power of God and he protects and is bigger than anything and everything. I would also maybe have a talk with the parents, not in a harsh tone but especially about "the devil coming into daddies room and suffocating him." I would ask what that is about and explain that it scares the children.
Also, tell them people are entitled to their opinions whether you believe they true or not is up to you.
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Bramble
Some pagan/ Wiccans believe-- and feel they have historical data--that goddess friendly religions with women priestesses were once around. With the rise of patriarchal religions, those were demonized, as were their women priestesses. etc. So some of the 'witches are bad bad' might be related to that change in religion and society.
House and land spirits( brownies, little people) were common in preChristian times. Some see a corelation between those and fairies.
The goddess Diana...who might be De anu...Danu... (Danube river,Tuatha De Dannan--Celtic mythology) may have some relation to fairies or house/land spirits.
http://www.antiromantic.com/poem_midsummer.asp
They may reflect preJudaic and preChristian religions, and as such were forbidden.
Sorry I don't have a list of links etc, or books etc. No time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy
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doojable
You "Simon the Sorceror" you ;)
I like Sci-fi. I remember Loy yelling and screaming about how devilish "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" was - but I liked the movie and I never bought into his reasoning.
I like SOME fantasy - but not all. My kids get to read what interests them. The oldest got interested in the "Eragon" series - about a dragon. It was written by a young man when he was 16. His older sister illustrated the cover.
I figure God isn't so weak that he can't work around a few books.
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waysider
Well, I guess somebody was bound to ask so why not me?
Are you sure they were talking about the magical kind?(fairies, that is.)
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doojable
YOu mean because of the purge...?
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socks
I was wondering the same thing waysider. Faeries or fairies? If they're your garden variety San Francisco spank-my-tush-and-call-me-Nancy fairies, or the fun-loving kind of fable and yore.
Speaking of which bliss - I bet you'd love this movie if you haven't seen it - Photographing Faries
A poignant, sometimes sad but very exhilerating movie. The cinematography is great.
On the children - I think you'd be wise to talk to your kids (if you haven't) about where you stand on the topic, primarily from the standpoint of defining how you see the devil and "devilish" influences. At least so they're not left thinking the devil may come in their rooms and try to hump them or something. Seriously, we've had friends who would get spooked at all kinds of completely benign things - we let our kids know how we felt. Namely, we're good people, we do believe that God blesses us and protects us as a Father and while there's evil in the world, we don't have to fear it. Anything gets in our rooms uninvited late at night will end up on the sidewalk for the police to pick up what's left. I never let them get off into the boogie-man mindset about the devil. F-him and anything that seeks to put a hurt on me or mine. That's my motto.
F'rinstance, we never taught our kids about Santa Claus, being good or bad or godly or devilish or anything of the kind. Santa Dude was similar to a cartoon or movie character, entertainment. Along the way our kids picked up from others and TV, etc. that Santa Clause was kind of presented as a "real" person. The idea of giving to others to make them happy isn't a bad idea, overall.
Now our son thought "really????" Cool, no way!!?? A guy brings stuff once a year??? Toys!? Where do I sign up!!!?
Our daughter was creeped out by it. An old guy sneaks into our house at night? When? We don't have a chimney in Florida, how's he get in? So the idea of leaving cookies and milk out was a mixed gesture on her part, didn't make sense. Go to the door, Dad will let you in, leave the toys, beat it.
So we explained gently to them that all was well, but the idea was warm and fuzzy if you didn't take it too far. Nothing wrong with it, but no, that's not why they should be good all year.
On another note - the topic should also cover "angels" if we're talking about spirit beings of whatever stripe. Why's the devil get free reign but angels just stand by and watch? Doesn't make sense, in context.
I thoroughly enjoy Tolkiens books - they're stories. Good and evil, big message stuff, plus exciting characters. Nazgul. Hobbits. I don't see the big deal. It's entertainment.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Once upon a time, there was a mean, vicious, little demon from hell that lived in a drambuie bottle...it would whisper, "C'mon Vic, drink a little more and then get Howard to bring that young girl to the motorcoach"...Vic would say..."Yeah, they all belong to me anyway..."
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Belle
You weren't taught that in TWI, were you, Outfield?
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Outfield
Belle,
In an offshoot but by former Way members.
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Belle
Like much of TWI - what they said and what they did were two totally different things..... you do remember the classes 100% devoted to devil spirits, don't you? DTA and many AC specials.... don't even get me started on the number of STS tapes on nothing but devil spirit infiltration and the devil spirit possessed egg sucking world.
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Mister P-Mosh
I also remember hearing this. Maybe it was from one of LCM's SNS tapes close to the end of his tenure? Either that, or perhaps from his version of the Advanced Class.
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Belle
Thanks, that's what I thought. :)
In TWI the "adversary" was always out to get us. UNLESS leadership wasn't happy with us, then we were "missing it" somewhere. Bad things happening to leadership was always because they were "standing in the gap" - they never "missed it", of course.
I never ever, ever heard what you heard from someone in TWI.
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oldiesman
I heard that too but can't remember where from.
Maybe "Dealing with the Adversary" or one of the many Sunday night cassette tapes of which I still own a trunk load of.
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What The Hey
I guess they shouldn't have been teaching Dealing with the Adversary or the PFAL Advanced Class then. There sure was a lot of talk about the devil and his "modus operandi" in those classes.
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TheInvisibleDan
As I recall, that comprised the reasoning behind the "Idiom of Permission" - Yawheh took credit for all the evil the Devil did throughout the OT so the devil would not become glorified.
Socks, "Photographing Faeries" was a great movie! I wish they would release it on dvd already.
I also loved the music throughout; had to go out and pick up a copy of Beethoven's Symphony No.7.
In fact, I think I'll bring that to work with me tonight.
Danny
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Larry N Moore
Do you remember the book "Angels of Light"? I think it was the book that detailed what devil spirit was involved in the behavior of people. Interesting book but, anyone reading it could quite easily forget that it takes the manifestation of discerning of spirits to determine the presence or non-presence of spirits and if present the identity of the spirit. It became a case where people were analyzing behavior and via sense knowledge determining the type of spirit. I suppose with such knowledge none of us really needed the manifestation of discerning of spirits. Some people couldn't handle reading that book because they started looking at themselves and wonder if they were possessed. Like I said -- interesting book -- but devoid of authority. If we can use a book's info to determine what devil spirit is present in an individual then why would God give us the ability to operate the manifestation of discerning of spirits?
I remember an occasion where a TC brought to fellowship someone who scared the crap outta everyone. He was a bit weird. The TC came to me a little while after the fellowship and asked if I would take the man home. Everyone else (he said) was afraid to get into a car with the man because they thought he was devil spirit possessed. I said sure -- no problem. I had a pretty good conversation with him on the way home. He was polite and thanked me for the ride home. I think their fear was a result of all this sense-knowledge info and definitely a sign of their lack of trust in God. So tell me -- in their case -- who was glorified -- God or the Devil?
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wrdsandwrks
I think sometimes kids talk about the things they think will impress others kids the most so that may be why they're dwelling on this with your kids, going for the shock value.
But I know my views on "fairy stories" have changed quite a bit in the past few years. C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein have convinced me that most fairy or fanatsy type stories are healthy for children and adults and arouse in us "desire" for other worlds, not like ours, in other words for heaven. They arouse hope in us for a another world, not like ours. Here are some quotes from Lewis and Tolkein that have changed my views on the subject:
J.R.R. Tolkein from "On Fairy Stories"
"The peculiar quality of the ‘joy' in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. It is not only a ‘consolation' for the sorrow of this world, but a satisfaction, and an answer to that question, ‘Is it true?' . . . In the ‘eucatastrophe' we see in brief vision that the answer may be greater–it may be a far-off gleam or echo of evangelium in the real world . . . The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories. They contain many marvels–peculiarly artistic, beautiful, and moving: ‘mythical' in their perfect, self-contained significance; and among the marvels is the greatest and most complete conceivable eucatastrophe. But this story [i.e. the Christian Story] has entered History and the primary world; the desire and aspiration of sub-creation [those who write and enjoy fanatasy literature] has been raised to the fulfillment of Creation. The Birth of Christ is the eucatastrophe of Man's history. The Resurrection is the eucatastrophe of the story of the Incarnation. This story begins and ends in joy. It has pre-eminently the ‘inner consistency of reality'. There is no tale ever told that men would rather find was true" (Peculiar Joy and the Christian Story).
C.S. Lewis from "On Stories"
"It would be much truer to say that fairy land arouses a longing for he knows not what. It stirs and troubles him (to his life-long enrichment) with the dim sense of something beyond his reach and, far from dulling or emptying the actual world, gives it a new dimension of depth. He does not despise real woods because he has read of enchanted woods; the reading makes all real woods a little enchanted..."
"And I think it possible that by confining your child to blameless stories of child life in which nothing at all alarming ever happens, you would fail to banish the terrors, and would succeed in banishing all that can ennoble them or make them endurable. For in fairy tales, side by side with the terrible figures, we find the immemorial comforters and protectors, the radiant ones; and the terrible figures are not merely terrible, but sublime. It would be nice if no little boy in bed, hearing, or thinking he hears, a sound, were ever at all frightened. But if he is going to be frightened, I think it better that he should think of giants and dragons than merely of burglars. And I think St. George, or any bright champion in armour , is a better comfort than the idea of the police."
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