I haven't been out here in quite a while, saw that some of you are curious as to the current state of affairs within CES. Feel free to give us a call us at 888-255-6189.
If you want to talk to JAL, we can give you his cell number when you call.
HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!!............THIS IS GETTING A LITTLE EMBARASSING FOR ME, GUYS!!........I WAS HOPING FOR A POST OR SOMETHING FROM EITHER OR BOTH OF YOU..........I READ ALL YOUR'S HERE IN THIS SPECIAL CES FORUM PAWTUCKET SET UP FOR YOU GUYS!!!!.........SEEMS WHEN IT WAS CONVENIENT FOR YOUR USE YOU DID USE IT!.......WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH IT NOW????..............STILL WAITING AND HOPING YOU'LL REPLY!
THANKS FOR HELPIN' A BROTHER/SISTER OUT!....................PEACE!
HELLO MATTHEW.............whoever you are..........feel free to tell john and/or jeff that i don't want to call you at your number..........i want them to answer my questions on this, their very own ces forum here at the greasespot cafe!!!.................they felt free to post here last december and for several weeks thereafter.......they are still free to post here...........I ALREADY HAVE JOHN'S CELL PHONE NUMBER, THANK YOU!...........won't you please let jeff and john know that i'm still patiently waiting for them to post here in ces's forum???...............why do i have to call you or john????............i did'nt have to do either to get them to post here before??........what's changed??........i'm a fellow christian.......have i offended them???.............can't they find their way "back here" like you did, matthew??...................come on man!!!................what's up???..................................................peace.
HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!!............THIS IS GETTING A LITTLE EMBARASSING FOR ME, GUYS!!........I WAS HOPING FOR A POST OR SOMETHING FROM EITHER OR BOTH OF YOU..........I READ ALL YOUR'S HERE IN THIS SPECIAL CES FORUM PAWTUCKET SET UP FOR YOU GUYS!!!!.........SEEMS WHEN IT WAS CONVENIENT FOR YOUR USE YOU DID USE IT!.......WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH IT NOW????..............STILL WAITING AND HOPING YOU'LL REPLY!
THANKS FOR HELPIN' A BROTHER/SISTER OUT!....................PEACE!
HELLO MATTHEW.............whoever you are..........feel free to tell john and/or jeff that i don't want to call you at your number..........i want them to answer my questions on this, their very own ces forum here at the greasespot cafe!!!.................they felt free to post here last december and for several weeks thereafter.......they are still free to post here...........I ALREADY HAVE JOHN'S CELL PHONE NUMBER, THANK YOU!...........won't you please let jeff and john know that i'm still patiently waiting for them to post here in ces's forum???...............why do i have to call you or john????............i did'nt have to do either to get them to post here before??........what's changed??........i'm a fellow christian.......have i offended them???.............can't they find their way "back here" like you did, matthew??...................come on man!!!................what's up???..................................................peace.
Seems to me, their replies to y'all last December were what became fodder for the lawsuits in the first place. So, can you blame them for not adding to the stockpile? Or, maybe they just have lives that don't include multiple daily visits to the Cafe? Either way, DWBH, take a chill pill, and get your blood pressure checked.
LawsuitS, cinderpelt? I only read of the one, are there more? That would be good information for those who are interested. The one I read about was Graser's suit.
I didn't know that it was replies to GS and GSers that led to that/those lawusit(s). Does that have anything to it being posted here to begin with?
I don't thnk DWBH is out of line. The question is reasonable since this board was used to comminicate information to whoever was interested in reading it. Now that the dust has settled into a quiet swirl, I think it's very telling that those same people aren't back with some kind of update and at least a signoff to the whole business saying they're not going to post anymore here, if that's what they intend. It does make GS feel kind of like a cheap date. I wonder too, reading this now - how come that phone don't ring no more?
HI AGAIN!......JEFF AND JOHN.........I'M STILL HERE..........WAITING.........PATIENTLY.............HOPING.............."CONSTANTLY ABIDING" SO TO SPEAK!................HOPE THESE CAPS ARE'NT TOO LOUD FOR YOU GUYS...........I'M JUST TRYING TO GET YOU GUYS TO HEAR ME!........THAT'S ALL.............LOOKING FORWARD TO A WORD......OR A FEW.......FROM YOU.............................PEACE
CINDERPELT......................hello!..........thanks for your post!..............allow me to reply............
"their replies to y'all last december were what became fodder for the lawsuits in the firstplace. so can you blame them for not adding to the stockpile?"
first of all, i was not a member or poster here until september,12, 2007. so, neither jeff nor john were replying to anything i asked them.........as a matter of fact, it was jeff, john and other ces members who asked pawtucket to post their letters, and, all the other "documents" of their's here at the greasespot!....he did not approach them......they approached him!.........and.......he graciously responded by setting up this very forum for them and ces....and all those who cared to follow the "events"as they unfolded here for all to see...........john posted another letter to all here at the spot besides the "epistle" of demember, 2006, in which he implied his willingness to respond to those who posted to him here........since ces' own site no longer provided "open" forums to it's own followers.......which at one time they had done.......why did they stop??...why have they not resumed their own open forum at any of their several websites??
secondly.......their "replies" here were not what " became fodder for the lawsuits in the first place".........it was their own foolish ministry of "personal prophecy" that started it all!........they turned on themselves and their followers......no one and no posters at the greasespot prompted any of their ridiculous lawsuits against themselves!......they were and are totally responsible for that themselves!!.......and, apparently, did'nt need or want anyone else's input or encouragement to get that silliness started.......they provided the "fodder" on their own by practicing their own doctrines!.........and, when folks here at the spot asked honest questions, they were told simply......."we have a book on all that which you can buy for"...........sooo.......let's give the credit for the "fodder" to whom it belongs.......the ces leadership themselves........and stop trying to blame "us" for their behavior!!
thirdly..........the reason i am asking jeff and john to reply here, is because, it was one of them who called me last winter, and asked me to "lurk" at the greasespot cafe to see everything they posted here........starting with john's letter of 12/2006...........to catch up on everything happening in their ministry.......and, then, to "please" get back to them and let them know what i thought about it all.........well, there were more pressing matters in my life requiring my attention at that time.........but i finally got to it in mid-august of this year, and i spent 3 weeks reading all the "stuff" here on this ces forum!........which is what prompted me to become a member here so that i might post my thoughts in this ces forum..........i have yet to post "what i think" about all of this..........but i have posted what i think are honest and pertinent questions of someone who asked me what i think!!.......i am responding to that request with a few questions of my own.....on a forum set up for them, at their request and specifically for their use!............i am in no way "adding to the stockpile" of anything!.....let alone their banal legal squabbles!
fourthly............i am not asking them to alter their lives to include "multiple daily visits to the cafe".........i am simply providing them a chance to reply to honest questions i have asked in a forum provided for them here at the greasespot..........a forum they asked me to read........a forum they've used before...........my questions are honest and polite..............so,..........what's the problem, cinderpelt???....................and, btw,.....thanks for your concern about my cardiovascular health..........i am normotensive and usually in good humor..........enjoying my life and job enormously!!...........so, no thanks on the chill pill..........i prefer that "jagged little pill" alanis sings about when i'm posting here..............seems that one's a bit too tough for you to swallow though, cinderpelt!!.............peace.
secondly.......their "replies" here were not what " became fodder for the lawsuits in the first place".........it was their own foolish ministry of "personal prophecy" that started it all!........they turned on themselves and their followers......no one and no posters at the greasespot prompted any of their ridiculous lawsuits against themselves!......they were and are totally responsible for that themselves!!.......and, apparently, did'nt need or want anyone else's input or encouragement to get that silliness started.......they provided the "fodder" on their own by practicing their own doctrines!.........and, when folks here at the spot asked honest questions, they were told simply......."we have a book on all that which you can buy for"...........sooo.......let's give the credit for the "fodder" to whom it belongs.......the ces leadership themselves........and stop trying to blame "us" for their behavior!!
Actually, the items posted here WERE the basis for the lawsuits. Yes, plural. The contention behind the lawsuits was that the letters and posts here constituted assassination of character against M & KA Gr. And please understand that "they" never blamed anyone here for the lawsuits, nor did "they" ask for them. The decision to start legal proceedings was made only by M & KA Gr.
I personally would be surprised to see any of "them" respond to your post. Despite your sign off of "peace" and your claim that you have no sarcastic or evil intention, your posts have come across as a bit mocking and aggressive. In my opinion, at least!
Now, your claim that this thread was opened at the request of CES/STF "leadership" is very interesting and I'll look into it. I'm also interested in the fact that someone involved asked you to lurk around GSC and report on the vibe and goings on here. It does seem disingenuous that they won't post here, but would ask someone to "keep a finger on the pulse"...so to speak.
Really, for the two main people you address here the lawsuits certainly play a factor in their failure to respond in a public forum - last I heard, both are still under suit.
They're also a number of other names that are synonymous with dishonorable who won't come out of the shadows where they choose to live.
I personally don't care whether they ever post here again or not since they've proven they are not to be trusted and am glad that they have been exposed.
...and I cooked a nice egg and toast breakfast, too....I thought we had fun and really connected.
Mocking and aggression...That can's barely been opened here, trust me. There's nothing to be afraid of. If it was going to get rough on GS it would have already. This has been nothing here. I can't imagine what it would be like to live in one of these households suing each other. I bet there's lot of polite biblical discourse.
HELLO ONCE AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!........SORRY I MISSED YOU YESTERDAY...........WORK GOT IN THE WAY.............GUESS I DID'NT MISS ANY REPLIES FROM EITHER OF YOU............THAT'S OKAY...........I'M STILL HERE WAITING FOR YOU TO SAY SOMETHING............ANYTHING!................PEACE.
Billy D....................have jeff and john been "beamed up" somewhere??...........are they totally incapable of speaking for themselves??...........they need you, or matthew, or cinderpelt to speak for them??
who "forced" john to post his letters here?..........who "forced" jeff to post his stuff here?...........who is responsible for the CONTENT of what they (jeff & john) and other ces "leaders" posted here?? are you?...........captain crunch??............joeoday??..........cinderpelt??............matthew??..............the fact that they (jeff & john) posted their stuff here is not the "basis" for the lawsuits.........the CONTENT of the posts is!........and, again.........who's responsible for that CONTENT??.........please don't try to shift the blame for the "fodder" from its content to where it was posted........that won't fly with me............and, i never said they "blamed anyone here" for the lawsuits..........that was cinderpelt's "fodder" problem, not mine!.......no one here is responsible for the graeser's self-righteous foolishness either........again, that's their (graeser's) problem!
my "sign off of 'peace'" is in no way sarcastic.....that's your inference..........and, what you infer as "mocking and aggressive" points to your own underlying defensivenss when it comes to trying to speak up for jeff or john........in my opinion.............i did not claim that this thread was opened at "the request of ces/stf 'leadership'"...........i stated that, in response to a request from "one of them" referring to jeff or john.........to read everything they (jeff & john) posted here, and then to "please get back to them (jeff or john) and let them (jeff or john) know what i think".......i was prompted to become a member here so that i could post my thinking in this forum...........which, i have not yet done................as i said above............all i've done so far is "posted what i think are honest and pertinent questions"!............i also never said that i was asked " to lurk around gsc and report on the vibe and goings on here"!........go back and read what i wrote so you can get it straight , please.........all the pronouns, "they", "them", "their", refer to jeff and john, not "ces/stf 'leadership'"............
so,..........thanks for "looking into it"...........but first i suggest you "look into" your misunderstanding of what i wrote so you can get your pronouns straight..........and.........btw..........if you have access to wherever jeff and john have been "beamed up", maybe you can help 'em beam back down here and speak for themselves!......................................peace.
dmiller..............hey there!..........fancy meetin' up with you here in the ces territory!...........
i never said that ces started this forum............only that pawtucket started it to give them (ces) " a home away from twi" here at the greasespot.........it was'nt pawtucket's idea to have john, jeff, et al post all "their" stuff here..........it was paw's response to what was started by ces followers like captain crunch....
again, dmiller........it was'nt my idea for jeff or john to post here.........or for ces to air its dirty laundry here at this public website.........that was totally their (jeff & john) prerogative.............just as it's my prerogative to post questions for them (jeff & john), here in a forum "dedicated" to their organization, providing a service for them (jeff & john) and their (jeff & john), followers that even ces' own websites won't provide!.............i don't owe them a "damn thing" either, dmiller...........frankly, i've been totally disinterested in ces for more than 20 years...........until, one of them (jeff or john) called me as i've mentioned before......
i have made no "false accusations against ces" here!.............i have not criticized ces here...........as i've said before, all i've done is post some honest and pertinent questions to jeff and john......and remind them that i'm still waiting for some answers...........to quote jon lovitz, " i just wanna be loved! is that so wrong??"
i have personally spoken on the phone to one of the 2 guys i'm addressing in this thread, dmiller............i was told to read the stuff i've read here in the ces in crisis forum,.....a public website, where they (jeff & john) have posted before....several times...........their preorgative.
i have posted some simple, honest questions here on that same public website....................my prerogative.
i'm still waiting for them to post some answers here at this public website.................my prerogative.
"like it or lump it"...............dmiller's prerogative.
TO POST OR NOT TO POST?.............THAT IS THE PREROGATIVE.........WHETHER 'TIS NOBLER TO SUFFER THE SLINGS AND ARROWS OF PUBLIC CRITIQUE, OR, BY IGNORING, AVOID THEM? THAT IS THE QUESTION!.....................................................................peace!
I hear ya socks! I cooked a nice egg and toast breakfast too this morning!! Ah well..from the frying pan into the fire..
From the sounds of the deafening silence, CES is acting like a black hole in space, sucking all the sound and life into it, and sucking what's already there deeper in-a real dead zone. Insiders have even said those who have spoken up in the past against the personal prophecy or who've been a victim of it, like E. Ly*n, have been disparaged and even forced out.
I think we here do have a stake in this, even if we are not members of CES, their current trend of hiding and covering for evil is not the right way to go. Since their own "leaders" didn't have the wherewithal to see it for what is was, nor deal with it and fix it, we sure as heck have the right to help.
Wasn't the pressure and contact from this website and those who post here what started the only reform that's taken place there thus far??
We are calling them out, their lack of response is what leads to a poor reception here cause we've seen it all before.
They do need outside help and perspective, perhaps that is why they initially contacted
Don'tWorry....where's the follow thru from them?
I think most Gs'ers here would be supportive of any major moves to correct their problems.
I hope they have the balls and honesty to face their people, and to figure things out and change their ways.
HEY JEFF, HEY JOHN............JUST SPENT SOME TIME READING YOUR LETTERS AND POSTS HERE FROM EARLIER THIS YEAR............COULD'NT FIND THE ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS THERE...........THOUGHT MAYBE YOU ARE'NT ANSWERING ME YET 'CUZ MAYBE YOU THINK YOU ALREADY HAVE................BUT, I WAS WRONG..........SO,.....I'M STILL WAITING!.....................THANKS FOR SOME KIND OF REPLY YET TO COME.....................................PEACE.
When the whole firestorm about CES/stf started on GS, I felt as if the two factions of that group were merely using GSC as their platform to (a) stage a coup and (b) counterattack. Plenty of mud was slung in both directions.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far it looks like I was right. GS was plenty good enough for the CES/stf folks to use to further their political agendas, but now its principals and self-appointed spokespersons seem to think they're too good to muddy their shoes here.
And to whoever said all the posts in this CES forum on GS served to do was provide ammo for the lawsuit (lawsuits?), I wouldn't blame that on the GSC regulars. It appears to me that the ammo was provided by the two factions of CES/stf themselves.
It's not nice to start a food fight in a cafe and then not even come back to help scrape the pie off the walls or mop up the spilled coffee.
If I were Paw, I might be thinking about hanging up the "We have the right to refuse service to anyone" sign and shut this booth down, but then DWBH might never get his answers. Oh, wait. It's looking unlikely that he'll get his answers anyway, isn't it?
When the whole firestorm about CES/stf started on GS, I felt as if the two factions of that group were merely using GSC as their platform to (a) stage a coup and (b) counterattack. Plenty of mud was slung in both directions.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far it looks like I was right. GS was plenty good enough for the CES/stf folks to use to further their political agendas, but now its principals and self-appointed spokespersons seem to think they're too good to muddy their shoes here.
And to whoever said all the posts in this CES forum on GS served to do was provide ammo for the lawsuit (lawsuits?), I wouldn't blame that on the GSC regulars. It appears to me that the ammo was provided by the two factions of CES/stf themselves.
It's not nice to start a food fight in a cafe and then not even come back to help scrape the pie off the walls or mop up the spilled coffee.
If I were Paw, I might be thinking about hanging up the "We have the right to refuse service to anyone" sign and shut this booth down, but then DWBH might never get his answers. Oh, wait. It's looking unlikely that he'll get his answers anyway, isn't it?
I don't recall MG's 'faction' ever coming out here and saying anything. I did say a few words on his behalf, but not at his urging. I've been there and have personally had to deal with the issues that abound with STF. I don't have a lot of luv for DG or JB because of the way I was treated. I'm neutral when it comes to Matt. I really like BillyD.
This situation with Mark was at least 3 years in the making. It was only when DG arrived was the deed able to be done. JB made it very clear to me that he did not like working under MG. He also didn't like working with me.
I spoke to MG BRIEFLY a while back - possibly July. When I asked how the litigation was going, he said something about being in mediation over the whole issue.
Make no mistake about it - them posting out here and putting papers into a supposedly 'neutral' 3rd party's (which she was no more neutral that I could be) hands for 'publication' was all about getting people to take sides and garnering support against MG. This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there. That's the basis for Mark's argument and I tend to agree with him.
The truth is that they ALL have used and abused personal prophecy to establish the 'rightness' of their actions when it has suited them.
According to the AoI and bylaws of the corp, MG can't be relieved of his board position. He has to resign. He indicated to me that he wasn't in any hurry to do so. He doesn't see TR being kept on the board. I see TR being replaced with either JAL or JB when the time comes.
This whole thing makes me shake my head...My experience with these CES folks is that they, like twi, only have "use" for you if it furthers their agenda....apparently, their posting here to clarify themselves and answer questions is not a great concern for them...
...John Lynn was interested in me when he thought that he might be able to recruit me into his "ministry"...when he discovered that I wasn't interested in buying what he was selling, he lost interest...fair enough.
...As far as it goes, I don't think they have any interest in responding on this forum because they know they have "shot their wad" here and we all see their dirty laundry...there's nobody left to bilk, nobody to con, nobody to raise the flag of their denomination over their rooftops...they are "shaking the dust off their feet" and moving on to more fertile grounds...in other words, they are conducting damage control and looking for suckers elsewhere.
I think they are being challenged to be "stand up guys"...but so far they are acting out the part of the wimp.
Yah, that's kinda the way I feel LindZee. I didn't even get a kiss, it was just wham-bam-best-60-seconds ever, and then gone.
I can see why though, reading Tzaia.
I guess...I don't know. If all these people wanted Graeser out, and Graeser didn't want to leave and he can't be fired...it's the same as way back when with the Way and LCM. A lot of people felt he should step off and vacate the active presidency, if not his position on the BOT's. Take a break, give it a rest. Get some "me time".
He didn't want to, felt it wouldn't be "best" and probably never gave it a serious thought as a result of the external suggestions. In his case, I'm sure he considered it personally. But he wanted to stay and that was that.
In his case it took the Allen lawsuit to pull it all together for him, and I'm sure he got an offer he couldn't refuse from his compatriots at the Way. And at that point, he could see the outcome and the wisdom in cutting his losses, which did no good really. He lost everything, looks like.
I read here that Graeser was being accused of a "one time" affair as well as various and sundry differences with the CES group over P.P. and other stuff.
It's true though Dmiller - CES dudes owe no explanation to an audience that isn't involved in CES or any of this. But they did bring it to this forum, be it one side only. But it still landed here and anyone with a brain would know what going public - GS is viewable by anyone in the world - could lead to.
But do we only have to do what is "owed"? What about what's right? I'm not going to set myself as the Voice of Right here, I'm not sure what's right in this instance really. But my personal sense is that some form of communication follow up would be appropriate from the geniuses who started it here to begin with.
If the concern was to actually "help" people, did that need end already? What were the original aims and intents? All done now? Dunno.
But I will say, not being a CES'er and having no dog in this pony show, I wish the best to them all, particualarly the Lynn's. John was, when I knew him and worked with him at times, a great guy. I know a lot of water's gone under the bridge and that's debatable by others with their own stories, but I personally know John was a stand up kinda guy. Doesn't matter if I agree with his theology, I like a lot of people that I don't match bibles with. I do like John and all I can say is - having been a regular-Joe now these last years, and happily married for 36, I would want him to have as much and more as my wife and I have shared. He deserves it, we all do. Whatever it takes, it's worth doing the work to get it right. It's never too late.
BillyD.........The goings-on which E.L. exposed in her letter and Capn Crunch posted to The Cafe were nothing shy of EVIL.
If mocking or being aggressive could cause EVIL to end, I say Bring it on!........however, I don’t see mocking or aggression coming from DWBH........he has questions which he feels men who call themselves Christian leaders should answer.......... I have some meself....
...
...
...
ButNowISee........You are spot on when you wrote: ..........Wasn't the pressure and contact from this website and those who post here what started the only reform that's taken place there thus far??
YES!
...
...
...
Tzaia..........your saying ...”This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there.”...... is example of the problem...........
it’s the ‘can’t talk’ rule.
People who know how cults work write things like:
.........“This spirit of control also prohibits anyone from discussing doubts on doctrine or the set of rules their particular church inflicts upon them. David Johnson, in his book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, says, ‘The most powerful of all unspoken rules in the abusive system is ... the "can't talk" rule...If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated. Those who do speak out are most often told, `We didn't have all these problems until you started shooting your mouth off. Everything was fine before you started stirring things up.'" Or “Quit causing division........you need to learn to forgive........love........”
and
...........”The dysfunctional system no doubt had a ‘don’t talk’ rule by practice—but probably spiritualized and cloaked in scripture as well. The ‘don’t talk’ rule serves to hide a myriad of the leaders’ sins.”
Your saying “The truth is that they ALL have used and abused personal prophecy to establish the 'rightness' of their actions when it has suited them.” is precisely why this was NOT strictly a CES problem that needed to stay HIDDEN there...............
...
...
...
DMiller...... If you are/were a financial supporter it is a very, very bad sign that you “haven't gotten answers from questions I asked quite a few months ago.”
.........You said CES doesn’t owe us anything. I beg to differ. Since CES claims to be a viable Christian ministry... expecting people to look to it for spiritual direction and to support it with prayer, time and money... methinks its leadership owes not only us something but owes the rest of the world something---an example of Christlike living........
.........What has been exposed here at The Café is long term, deeply defended, UN-Christlike living. Methinks that if they were mending their ways, they’d come back to The Café and transparently answer any reasonable question....working, as socks says, to get it right.
This situation with Mark was at least 3 years in the making. It was only when DG arrived was the deed able to be done. JB made it very clear to me that he did not like working under MG. He also didn't like working with me.
Hey there Tz - thanks for the shout out. I do take issue with what you insinuate in the above quote - that there was a long standing desire and conspiracy to oust MG. There may have been differences in opinion and personality conflict (with one person in particular), but there was no conspiracy. Period. It was MG's idea to have DG come in the first place!
Make no mistake about it - them posting out here and putting papers into a supposedly 'neutral' 3rd party's (which she was no more neutral that I could be) hands for 'publication' was all about getting people to take sides and garnering support against MG. This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there. That's the basis for Mark's argument and I tend to agree with him.
Please be careful here as well, because a bit of the same was going on with the MG side, though it wasn't done here. Letters were sent out, folks on the CES/STF mailing list were contacted. My wife and I were personally witness to phone calls and conversations where such things things as "it's a war" and "it's time to take sides" were being said.
In the end, both "sides" are ultimately to blame, and I personally have suffered some of the consequences. Thankfully, my wife and I are working through it and moving on with our lives. I pray daily for all involved - in my opinion, it's the best hope for a positive outcome.
Yo! Billy D!..................have you "looked into it"???.........got your pronouns straight??................what have you found out???.................we ever gonna hear from you again on this???..............have you located jeff and/or john??.........they willing to "beam down"??....................................peace.
I have to say that I've only just perused this thread. Don'tWorry - I notice that you speak in a regular "tone" to other Greasespotters, but SCREAM AND YELL when you address John Lynn and his group. Then, you diss them, still screaming your head off, for not answering your rants.
Geez, man. Don't you have any valium left over from the sixties?
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF!..........HEY JOHN!.............WHAT'S UP?? It's been almost a year now since you guys posted a load of your information, a long letter from you, john, as well as a number of other lengthy l
waysider
Just so you know, I put the quotation marks around it to indicate those are not my words.
Ham
and they can't hear or see the steam-roller heading in their very very own direction.. I've seen it heading in mine.. but that is life, isn't it? I'm "lucky(?)".. heh. I've had the advanced notice
sirvaliant
Hi folks,
I haven't been out here in quite a while, saw that some of you are curious as to the current state of affairs within CES. Feel free to give us a call us at 888-255-6189.
If you want to talk to JAL, we can give you his cell number when you call.
God bless,
Matthew
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO ONCE AGAIN JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!!............THIS IS GETTING A LITTLE EMBARASSING FOR ME, GUYS!!........I WAS HOPING FOR A POST OR SOMETHING FROM EITHER OR BOTH OF YOU..........I READ ALL YOUR'S HERE IN THIS SPECIAL CES FORUM PAWTUCKET SET UP FOR YOU GUYS!!!!.........SEEMS WHEN IT WAS CONVENIENT FOR YOUR USE YOU DID USE IT!.......WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH IT NOW????..............STILL WAITING AND HOPING YOU'LL REPLY!
THANKS FOR HELPIN' A BROTHER/SISTER OUT!....................PEACE!
HELLO MATTHEW.............whoever you are..........feel free to tell john and/or jeff that i don't want to call you at your number..........i want them to answer my questions on this, their very own ces forum here at the greasespot cafe!!!.................they felt free to post here last december and for several weeks thereafter.......they are still free to post here...........I ALREADY HAVE JOHN'S CELL PHONE NUMBER, THANK YOU!...........won't you please let jeff and john know that i'm still patiently waiting for them to post here in ces's forum???...............why do i have to call you or john????............i did'nt have to do either to get them to post here before??........what's changed??........i'm a fellow christian.......have i offended them???.............can't they find their way "back here" like you did, matthew??...................come on man!!!................what's up???..................................................peace.
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Rejoice
Yep, if they post here in THEIR own words, then everyone can read it for themselves. That eliminates the issue of heresay.
Just a simple explanation; even bullet points will work.
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cinderpelt
Seems to me, their replies to y'all last December were what became fodder for the lawsuits in the first place. So, can you blame them for not adding to the stockpile? Or, maybe they just have lives that don't include multiple daily visits to the Cafe? Either way, DWBH, take a chill pill, and get your blood pressure checked.
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Suda
DWBH,
Admire your tenacity. Keep asking.
Suda
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socks
LawsuitS, cinderpelt? I only read of the one, are there more? That would be good information for those who are interested. The one I read about was Graser's suit.
I didn't know that it was replies to GS and GSers that led to that/those lawusit(s). Does that have anything to it being posted here to begin with?
I don't thnk DWBH is out of line. The question is reasonable since this board was used to comminicate information to whoever was interested in reading it. Now that the dust has settled into a quiet swirl, I think it's very telling that those same people aren't back with some kind of update and at least a signoff to the whole business saying they're not going to post anymore here, if that's what they intend. It does make GS feel kind of like a cheap date. I wonder too, reading this now - how come that phone don't ring no more?
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doojable
*sniff* They don't call... They don't write....
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DontWorryBeHappy
HI AGAIN!......JEFF AND JOHN.........I'M STILL HERE..........WAITING.........PATIENTLY.............HOPING.............."CONSTANTLY ABIDING" SO TO SPEAK!................HOPE THESE CAPS ARE'NT TOO LOUD FOR YOU GUYS...........I'M JUST TRYING TO GET YOU GUYS TO HEAR ME!........THAT'S ALL.............LOOKING FORWARD TO A WORD......OR A FEW.......FROM YOU.............................PEACE
CINDERPELT......................hello!..........thanks for your post!..............allow me to reply............
"their replies to y'all last december were what became fodder for the lawsuits in the firstplace. so can you blame them for not adding to the stockpile?"
first of all, i was not a member or poster here until september,12, 2007. so, neither jeff nor john were replying to anything i asked them.........as a matter of fact, it was jeff, john and other ces members who asked pawtucket to post their letters, and, all the other "documents" of their's here at the greasespot!....he did not approach them......they approached him!.........and.......he graciously responded by setting up this very forum for them and ces....and all those who cared to follow the "events"as they unfolded here for all to see...........john posted another letter to all here at the spot besides the "epistle" of demember, 2006, in which he implied his willingness to respond to those who posted to him here........since ces' own site no longer provided "open" forums to it's own followers.......which at one time they had done.......why did they stop??...why have they not resumed their own open forum at any of their several websites??
secondly.......their "replies" here were not what " became fodder for the lawsuits in the first place".........it was their own foolish ministry of "personal prophecy" that started it all!........they turned on themselves and their followers......no one and no posters at the greasespot prompted any of their ridiculous lawsuits against themselves!......they were and are totally responsible for that themselves!!.......and, apparently, did'nt need or want anyone else's input or encouragement to get that silliness started.......they provided the "fodder" on their own by practicing their own doctrines!.........and, when folks here at the spot asked honest questions, they were told simply......."we have a book on all that which you can buy for"...........sooo.......let's give the credit for the "fodder" to whom it belongs.......the ces leadership themselves........and stop trying to blame "us" for their behavior!!
thirdly..........the reason i am asking jeff and john to reply here, is because, it was one of them who called me last winter, and asked me to "lurk" at the greasespot cafe to see everything they posted here........starting with john's letter of 12/2006...........to catch up on everything happening in their ministry.......and, then, to "please" get back to them and let them know what i thought about it all.........well, there were more pressing matters in my life requiring my attention at that time.........but i finally got to it in mid-august of this year, and i spent 3 weeks reading all the "stuff" here on this ces forum!........which is what prompted me to become a member here so that i might post my thoughts in this ces forum..........i have yet to post "what i think" about all of this..........but i have posted what i think are honest and pertinent questions of someone who asked me what i think!!.......i am responding to that request with a few questions of my own.....on a forum set up for them, at their request and specifically for their use!............i am in no way "adding to the stockpile" of anything!.....let alone their banal legal squabbles!
fourthly............i am not asking them to alter their lives to include "multiple daily visits to the cafe".........i am simply providing them a chance to reply to honest questions i have asked in a forum provided for them here at the greasespot..........a forum they asked me to read........a forum they've used before...........my questions are honest and polite..............so,..........what's the problem, cinderpelt???....................and, btw,.....thanks for your concern about my cardiovascular health..........i am normotensive and usually in good humor..........enjoying my life and job enormously!!...........so, no thanks on the chill pill..........i prefer that "jagged little pill" alanis sings about when i'm posting here..............seems that one's a bit too tough for you to swallow though, cinderpelt!!.............peace.
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Billy D
Actually, the items posted here WERE the basis for the lawsuits. Yes, plural. The contention behind the lawsuits was that the letters and posts here constituted assassination of character against M & KA Gr. And please understand that "they" never blamed anyone here for the lawsuits, nor did "they" ask for them. The decision to start legal proceedings was made only by M & KA Gr.
I personally would be surprised to see any of "them" respond to your post. Despite your sign off of "peace" and your claim that you have no sarcastic or evil intention, your posts have come across as a bit mocking and aggressive. In my opinion, at least!
Now, your claim that this thread was opened at the request of CES/STF "leadership" is very interesting and I'll look into it. I'm also interested in the fact that someone involved asked you to lurk around GSC and report on the vibe and goings on here. It does seem disingenuous that they won't post here, but would ask someone to "keep a finger on the pulse"...so to speak.
Really, for the two main people you address here the lawsuits certainly play a factor in their failure to respond in a public forum - last I heard, both are still under suit.
Peace,
~B
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Tom Strange
Billy D... you're right, they are DISINGENUOUS!!!
They're also a number of other names that are synonymous with dishonorable who won't come out of the shadows where they choose to live.
I personally don't care whether they ever post here again or not since they've proven they are not to be trusted and am glad that they have been exposed.
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dmiller
I'm gonna weigh in here -- and all Y'all can like it or lump it. (your choice, eh?)
Ces folks DID NOT start this forum. Paw did, with the intial thread from Captain Crunch.
Given the correct questions/ observations he had about what was happening (then) ---
this forum was formed to alleviate disruption from the ABOUT THE WAY forum.
Personally --- these days, I think that CES is lacking in response to the questions posed.
But so what??? It's their prerogative to post (or not), just as it is yours or mine.
Their bed has been chosen. Let them lie in it. Hope it's comfy.
They don't owe us a dam* thing, since most here don't follow them,
and once they DO post here -- most will criticize.
and especially since most here (imo) make false accusations every chance they get,
because twi is in the back of their minds, and that's equated to CES,
(rightly?, wrongly? -- you be the judge).
It's a good thing to ask for answers. Answers have NOT been forthcoming from CES.
But if yer not willing to pick up the phone and ask in person (as I have),
don't expect an answer on a public website.
As I said -- like it or lump it. The choice is up to you.
Personally --- I haven't gotten answers from questions I asked quite a few months ago.
I would NEVER expect to see them addressed on this site here.
(Posts here by me, about this subject, have been met with deafening silence)
Thus (portions) of my previous post.
They ain't a'gonna answer here.
I'll personally call Ripley's Believe It Or Not,
if they do.
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socks
...and I cooked a nice egg and toast breakfast, too....I thought we had fun and really connected.
Mocking and aggression...That can's barely been opened here, trust me. There's nothing to be afraid of. If it was going to get rough on GS it would have already. This has been nothing here. I can't imagine what it would be like to live in one of these households suing each other. I bet there's lot of polite biblical discourse.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HELLO ONCE AGAIN, JEFF BLACKBURN AND JOHN LYNN!!........SORRY I MISSED YOU YESTERDAY...........WORK GOT IN THE WAY.............GUESS I DID'NT MISS ANY REPLIES FROM EITHER OF YOU............THAT'S OKAY...........I'M STILL HERE WAITING FOR YOU TO SAY SOMETHING............ANYTHING!................PEACE.
Billy D....................have jeff and john been "beamed up" somewhere??...........are they totally incapable of speaking for themselves??...........they need you, or matthew, or cinderpelt to speak for them??
who "forced" john to post his letters here?..........who "forced" jeff to post his stuff here?...........who is responsible for the CONTENT of what they (jeff & john) and other ces "leaders" posted here?? are you?...........captain crunch??............joeoday??..........cinderpelt??............matthew??..............the fact that they (jeff & john) posted their stuff here is not the "basis" for the lawsuits.........the CONTENT of the posts is!........and, again.........who's responsible for that CONTENT??.........please don't try to shift the blame for the "fodder" from its content to where it was posted........that won't fly with me............and, i never said they "blamed anyone here" for the lawsuits..........that was cinderpelt's "fodder" problem, not mine!.......no one here is responsible for the graeser's self-righteous foolishness either........again, that's their (graeser's) problem!
my "sign off of 'peace'" is in no way sarcastic.....that's your inference..........and, what you infer as "mocking and aggressive" points to your own underlying defensivenss when it comes to trying to speak up for jeff or john........in my opinion.............i did not claim that this thread was opened at "the request of ces/stf 'leadership'"...........i stated that, in response to a request from "one of them" referring to jeff or john.........to read everything they (jeff & john) posted here, and then to "please get back to them (jeff or john) and let them (jeff or john) know what i think".......i was prompted to become a member here so that i could post my thinking in this forum...........which, i have not yet done................as i said above............all i've done so far is "posted what i think are honest and pertinent questions"!............i also never said that i was asked " to lurk around gsc and report on the vibe and goings on here"!........go back and read what i wrote so you can get it straight , please.........all the pronouns, "they", "them", "their", refer to jeff and john, not "ces/stf 'leadership'"............
so,..........thanks for "looking into it"...........but first i suggest you "look into" your misunderstanding of what i wrote so you can get your pronouns straight..........and.........btw..........if you have access to wherever jeff and john have been "beamed up", maybe you can help 'em beam back down here and speak for themselves!......................................peace.
dmiller..............hey there!..........fancy meetin' up with you here in the ces territory!...........
i never said that ces started this forum............only that pawtucket started it to give them (ces) " a home away from twi" here at the greasespot.........it was'nt pawtucket's idea to have john, jeff, et al post all "their" stuff here..........it was paw's response to what was started by ces followers like captain crunch....
again, dmiller........it was'nt my idea for jeff or john to post here.........or for ces to air its dirty laundry here at this public website.........that was totally their (jeff & john) prerogative.............just as it's my prerogative to post questions for them (jeff & john), here in a forum "dedicated" to their organization, providing a service for them (jeff & john) and their (jeff & john), followers that even ces' own websites won't provide!.............i don't owe them a "damn thing" either, dmiller...........frankly, i've been totally disinterested in ces for more than 20 years...........until, one of them (jeff or john) called me as i've mentioned before......
i have made no "false accusations against ces" here!.............i have not criticized ces here...........as i've said before, all i've done is post some honest and pertinent questions to jeff and john......and remind them that i'm still waiting for some answers...........to quote jon lovitz, " i just wanna be loved! is that so wrong??"
i have personally spoken on the phone to one of the 2 guys i'm addressing in this thread, dmiller............i was told to read the stuff i've read here in the ces in crisis forum,.....a public website, where they (jeff & john) have posted before....several times...........their preorgative.
i have posted some simple, honest questions here on that same public website....................my prerogative.
i'm still waiting for them to post some answers here at this public website.................my prerogative.
"like it or lump it"...............dmiller's prerogative.
TO POST OR NOT TO POST?.............THAT IS THE PREROGATIVE.........WHETHER 'TIS NOBLER TO SUFFER THE SLINGS AND ARROWS OF PUBLIC CRITIQUE, OR, BY IGNORING, AVOID THEM? THAT IS THE QUESTION!.....................................................................peace!
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now I see
I hear ya socks! I cooked a nice egg and toast breakfast too this morning!! Ah well..from the frying pan into the fire..
From the sounds of the deafening silence, CES is acting like a black hole in space, sucking all the sound and life into it, and sucking what's already there deeper in-a real dead zone. Insiders have even said those who have spoken up in the past against the personal prophecy or who've been a victim of it, like E. Ly*n, have been disparaged and even forced out.
I think we here do have a stake in this, even if we are not members of CES, their current trend of hiding and covering for evil is not the right way to go. Since their own "leaders" didn't have the wherewithal to see it for what is was, nor deal with it and fix it, we sure as heck have the right to help.
Wasn't the pressure and contact from this website and those who post here what started the only reform that's taken place there thus far??
We are calling them out, their lack of response is what leads to a poor reception here cause we've seen it all before.
They do need outside help and perspective, perhaps that is why they initially contacted
Don'tWorry....where's the follow thru from them?
I think most Gs'ers here would be supportive of any major moves to correct their problems.
I hope they have the balls and honesty to face their people, and to figure things out and change their ways.
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DontWorryBeHappy
HEY JEFF, HEY JOHN............JUST SPENT SOME TIME READING YOUR LETTERS AND POSTS HERE FROM EARLIER THIS YEAR............COULD'NT FIND THE ANSWERS TO MY QUESTIONS THERE...........THOUGHT MAYBE YOU ARE'NT ANSWERING ME YET 'CUZ MAYBE YOU THINK YOU ALREADY HAVE................BUT, I WAS WRONG..........SO,.....I'M STILL WAITING!.....................THANKS FOR SOME KIND OF REPLY YET TO COME.....................................PEACE.
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Linda Z
When the whole firestorm about CES/stf started on GS, I felt as if the two factions of that group were merely using GSC as their platform to (a) stage a coup and (b) counterattack. Plenty of mud was slung in both directions.
I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far it looks like I was right. GS was plenty good enough for the CES/stf folks to use to further their political agendas, but now its principals and self-appointed spokespersons seem to think they're too good to muddy their shoes here.
And to whoever said all the posts in this CES forum on GS served to do was provide ammo for the lawsuit (lawsuits?), I wouldn't blame that on the GSC regulars. It appears to me that the ammo was provided by the two factions of CES/stf themselves.
It's not nice to start a food fight in a cafe and then not even come back to help scrape the pie off the walls or mop up the spilled coffee.
If I were Paw, I might be thinking about hanging up the "We have the right to refuse service to anyone" sign and shut this booth down, but then DWBH might never get his answers. Oh, wait. It's looking unlikely that he'll get his answers anyway, isn't it?
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Tzaia
I don't recall MG's 'faction' ever coming out here and saying anything. I did say a few words on his behalf, but not at his urging. I've been there and have personally had to deal with the issues that abound with STF. I don't have a lot of luv for DG or JB because of the way I was treated. I'm neutral when it comes to Matt. I really like BillyD.
This situation with Mark was at least 3 years in the making. It was only when DG arrived was the deed able to be done. JB made it very clear to me that he did not like working under MG. He also didn't like working with me.
I spoke to MG BRIEFLY a while back - possibly July. When I asked how the litigation was going, he said something about being in mediation over the whole issue.
Make no mistake about it - them posting out here and putting papers into a supposedly 'neutral' 3rd party's (which she was no more neutral that I could be) hands for 'publication' was all about getting people to take sides and garnering support against MG. This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there. That's the basis for Mark's argument and I tend to agree with him.
The truth is that they ALL have used and abused personal prophecy to establish the 'rightness' of their actions when it has suited them.
According to the AoI and bylaws of the corp, MG can't be relieved of his board position. He has to resign. He indicated to me that he wasn't in any hurry to do so. He doesn't see TR being kept on the board. I see TR being replaced with either JAL or JB when the time comes.
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excathedra
wow
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GrouchoMarxJr
This whole thing makes me shake my head...My experience with these CES folks is that they, like twi, only have "use" for you if it furthers their agenda....apparently, their posting here to clarify themselves and answer questions is not a great concern for them...
...John Lynn was interested in me when he thought that he might be able to recruit me into his "ministry"...when he discovered that I wasn't interested in buying what he was selling, he lost interest...fair enough.
...As far as it goes, I don't think they have any interest in responding on this forum because they know they have "shot their wad" here and we all see their dirty laundry...there's nobody left to bilk, nobody to con, nobody to raise the flag of their denomination over their rooftops...they are "shaking the dust off their feet" and moving on to more fertile grounds...in other words, they are conducting damage control and looking for suckers elsewhere.
I think they are being challenged to be "stand up guys"...but so far they are acting out the part of the wimp.
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socks
Yah, that's kinda the way I feel LindZee. I didn't even get a kiss, it was just wham-bam-best-60-seconds ever, and then gone.
I can see why though, reading Tzaia.
I guess...I don't know. If all these people wanted Graeser out, and Graeser didn't want to leave and he can't be fired...it's the same as way back when with the Way and LCM. A lot of people felt he should step off and vacate the active presidency, if not his position on the BOT's. Take a break, give it a rest. Get some "me time".
He didn't want to, felt it wouldn't be "best" and probably never gave it a serious thought as a result of the external suggestions. In his case, I'm sure he considered it personally. But he wanted to stay and that was that.
In his case it took the Allen lawsuit to pull it all together for him, and I'm sure he got an offer he couldn't refuse from his compatriots at the Way. And at that point, he could see the outcome and the wisdom in cutting his losses, which did no good really. He lost everything, looks like.
I read here that Graeser was being accused of a "one time" affair as well as various and sundry differences with the CES group over P.P. and other stuff.
It's true though Dmiller - CES dudes owe no explanation to an audience that isn't involved in CES or any of this. But they did bring it to this forum, be it one side only. But it still landed here and anyone with a brain would know what going public - GS is viewable by anyone in the world - could lead to.
But do we only have to do what is "owed"? What about what's right? I'm not going to set myself as the Voice of Right here, I'm not sure what's right in this instance really. But my personal sense is that some form of communication follow up would be appropriate from the geniuses who started it here to begin with.
If the concern was to actually "help" people, did that need end already? What were the original aims and intents? All done now? Dunno.
But I will say, not being a CES'er and having no dog in this pony show, I wish the best to them all, particualarly the Lynn's. John was, when I knew him and worked with him at times, a great guy. I know a lot of water's gone under the bridge and that's debatable by others with their own stories, but I personally know John was a stand up kinda guy. Doesn't matter if I agree with his theology, I like a lot of people that I don't match bibles with. I do like John and all I can say is - having been a regular-Joe now these last years, and happily married for 36, I would want him to have as much and more as my wife and I have shared. He deserves it, we all do. Whatever it takes, it's worth doing the work to get it right. It's never too late.
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thankfulone2
BillyD.........The goings-on which E.L. exposed in her letter and Capn Crunch posted to The Cafe were nothing shy of EVIL.
If mocking or being aggressive could cause EVIL to end, I say Bring it on!........however, I don’t see mocking or aggression coming from DWBH........he has questions which he feels men who call themselves Christian leaders should answer.......... I have some meself....
...
...
...
ButNowISee........You are spot on when you wrote: ..........Wasn't the pressure and contact from this website and those who post here what started the only reform that's taken place there thus far??
YES!
...
...
...
Tzaia..........your saying ...”This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there.”...... is example of the problem...........
it’s the ‘can’t talk’ rule.
People who know how cults work write things like:
.........“This spirit of control also prohibits anyone from discussing doubts on doctrine or the set of rules their particular church inflicts upon them. David Johnson, in his book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, says, ‘The most powerful of all unspoken rules in the abusive system is ... the "can't talk" rule...If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated. Those who do speak out are most often told, `We didn't have all these problems until you started shooting your mouth off. Everything was fine before you started stirring things up.'" Or “Quit causing division........you need to learn to forgive........love........”
and
...........”The dysfunctional system no doubt had a ‘don’t talk’ rule by practice—but probably spiritualized and cloaked in scripture as well. The ‘don’t talk’ rule serves to hide a myriad of the leaders’ sins.”
Your saying “The truth is that they ALL have used and abused personal prophecy to establish the 'rightness' of their actions when it has suited them.” is precisely why this was NOT strictly a CES problem that needed to stay HIDDEN there...............
...
...
...
DMiller...... If you are/were a financial supporter it is a very, very bad sign that you “haven't gotten answers from questions I asked quite a few months ago.”
.........You said CES doesn’t owe us anything. I beg to differ. Since CES claims to be a viable Christian ministry... expecting people to look to it for spiritual direction and to support it with prayer, time and money... methinks its leadership owes not only us something but owes the rest of the world something---an example of Christlike living........
.........What has been exposed here at The Café is long term, deeply defended, UN-Christlike living. Methinks that if they were mending their ways, they’d come back to The Café and transparently answer any reasonable question....working, as socks says, to get it right.
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Billy D
Please be careful here as well, because a bit of the same was going on with the MG side, though it wasn't done here. Letters were sent out, folks on the CES/STF mailing list were contacted. My wife and I were personally witness to phone calls and conversations where such things things as "it's a war" and "it's time to take sides" were being said.
In the end, both "sides" are ultimately to blame, and I personally have suffered some of the consequences. Thankfully, my wife and I are working through it and moving on with our lives. I pray daily for all involved - in my opinion, it's the best hope for a positive outcome.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Yo! Billy D!..................have you "looked into it"???.........got your pronouns straight??................what have you found out???.................we ever gonna hear from you again on this???..............have you located jeff and/or john??.........they willing to "beam down"??....................................peace.
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notinKansasanymore
I have to say that I've only just perused this thread. Don'tWorry - I notice that you speak in a regular "tone" to other Greasespotters, but SCREAM AND YELL when you address John Lynn and his group. Then, you diss them, still screaming your head off, for not answering your rants.
Geez, man. Don't you have any valium left over from the sixties?
:blink:
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