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Cutting Through the Fog

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Thanks Paw for putting up those links.

Does anyone here know if the Jalvis 3 hour tape of "overview of Events" that covers this time period offers more information?  

Is there anywhere it can be accessed and listened to on the net?  Is there a transcript somewhere?

Edited by but now I see

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What about the people here who don't happen to be Christians?

Do they have any less right to this information?

We talk about all sorts of things here that don't put "Jesus" at the center of attention.

Frankly, during my days in TWI, I grew weary of everything always having to have "The Word" as the focal point.

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I did hear this 21 years ago, not from Ralph, but from Sue P@@rce.

My TC's, who were also WC, had Sue come and speak to us twice,

about a month, month and a half apart.

The first time she told us what had been going on in TWI and at HQ.

The second time she told us even more and said that JAL was starting his own deal -

got his phone number and everything. I passed on that, by that time, I had had enough.

RD's account of the events that transpired during those days lines up with SP's,

except for a few minor details. For instance, I didn't know the extent of the "house arrest".

It did change everything, at least for me. At that time,

not only did I have the eye witness account of SP, I had the POP paper, the adultery paper,

and the Letter to the Trustees, as did the rest of the fellowship.

So there were people out there speaking up 21 years ago, but it was difficult to get the information out.

Remember, it was a very confusing time, TWI was in full blown protection mode,

and most information came from your TC.

Thank God I had TC's who were brave enough to make sure that we,

their fellowship, had access to the what was really going on behind closed doors.

I hope with all my heart that they have had a great and joyful life and will continue

to have a great and joyful life for many years to come. I can't thank them enough.

Thanks to RD and SP also for their courage and honesty in difficult times.

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"Protection mode"

"house arrest"

"Top Secret"

"Guns, dobermans, threats"

What was the first line on that Green card again? Oh yea!

"Eliminates worry and fear." <_<

If nothing else, (and it's much more) this interview points to how far from anything that attracted most of us to TWI, the cult had strayed.

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arizona i just posted this on the comments section of your profile

a big debt of "I'm sorry" for knowningly dragging these folks into a very dark journey.

i wanted to thank you for that

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But I have to wonder why he chooses to bring it all back up now.

Maybe, because it is relevant?

and, maybe because there hasn't been exactly such an open public forum as gsc?

what I see in all of this.. perhaps, just perhaps.. maybe the "good Shepherd" wants to lead us from a bunch of religious "hooey" into real callings and professions that he wanted us in for far too long.

maybe he doesn't LIKE us meandering through life, playing the "God game.."

I really loved his (paraphrased) statement to ces.. "well, fellas.. I'm off to get a life, somewhere, somehow.."

something legitimate..

I've felt the same way. I can't pretend to be what I am not.

There are STILL people with der vey mindset.. "whadya need a college education for, for christ's sake.. you could be out witnessing, doing miracles(?), doing the work of THE LORD.."

I performed a "reverse" "reem job" on somebody who tried that on me..

:biglaugh:

relevant? You bet..

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So there were people out there speaking up 21 years ago, but it was difficult to get the information out.

Remember, it was a very confusing time, TWI was in full blown protection mode,

and most information came from your TC.

You aren't kidding it was a confusing time. I didn't know who to believe or listen to. It was even more so for many years after that. I was in Texas during that time. Robert Belt was the Limb coordinator. When he left, the remaining leadership spoke badly of him. I didn't know him, but the leadership's words had an impact on me. Shame on me. I left Texas in 1988 and was going to leave TWI too. I went home to the small Oregon town I was from. But then I ended up in a metropolitan area, and I went back to Twig to do the vicious cycle all over again. By then the Trustees separated themselves from Geer, and that ROA was horrible. It was all about giving your allegiance to Craig. It's hindsite now. Boy, what a ride....And I thought I was doing it all for God. Good thing He knows hearts.

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Are we to believe that everything the Way Ministry taught was wrong?

I think not.

really?

it's been a walk of deception, for a long, long time..

what would you do, if you woke up one morning, and came to the realizaton that everything that you thought you believed was just plain wrong..

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The armed thugs scenario came as no surprise to me.

A friend of mine in another state told me he had seen some things going on that appalled him. He was deliberately vague.

He said he was warning the 'believers" in his area. Next thing I know he is telling me that he had been paid a personal visit at his home, hundreds of miles from HQ, by two "goons" who told him, in no uncertain terms, to stop bad mouthing The Way or else. This guy was not the kind of guy to make this stuff up. I believed him then and still do. I remember thinking, though, that there must be something really deep about this that I didn't understand. "Surely there has to be some really profound reason for such drastic measures."I told a few people about this, at the time, but you can imagine the kind of reception I got in revealing this.

Now here's the really creepy part-----This was in 1979!!

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just wanted to mention, i don't think veepee, trustee, yakling, etc., etc., had anymore spiritual savvy than ANYONE

that's MY cutting through the fog

hugs

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Good point Excie,

I just finished reading the 37 page letter, alot of it was based on the asssumption that veepee was some sort of mog who had authority as such, including his literal according to usage meanings...the document was obviously written before it was figured out that he was a mass marketing plagerist with an upfront fascade but rotten at the core, and before we understood we were worshipping men in the TWI hierarchy system....

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He didn't say he was the only one ... and he was not the savior ... who was saved? He confronted some people, but TWI was not "saved". They continued with biz as usual. The bad guys kept everything, Ralph went out and started over. He didn't even try to glom on to the many that left .. unless he is starting a new ministry I haven't heard of.

What part are you saying was incorrect Hey? Was Ralph not part of the Yak twig? Did he not write those letters? Were people not told to not read the adultery paper?

Just try to be a little more specific on what you think Ralph said that was a lie. Or describe a little better these "underhanded machinations" please.

What I am saying is I trust these ex-TWI leaders and what they have to say about each other and about the events that happened "back then" as much as I would trust a 3-dollar bill. Unless you are saying none of them are holding any animosity toward each other at all today. Oh no.

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You aren't kidding it was a confusing time. I didn't know who to believe or listen to. It was even more so for many years after that. I was in Texas during that time. Robert Belt was the Limb coordinator. When he left, the remaining leadership spoke badly of him. I didn't know him, but the leadership's words had an impact on me. Shame on me.

No, no, no - Not shame on you.

Shame on them. Shame. On. Them.

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I'm sorry to see the derailing of whether JC was mentioned or not. I hear a story of a man who wanted to do what was godly.

I listened to this today, and my head is spinning.

Then maybe you should quit running around the block with these crack pots.

I wish I was able to hear this 21 years ago, but I'm not sure it would have changed anything for me. Only God knows. I remember hearing about Ralph and John's letter, but I was told not to read it or I would be possessed like they are. I am baffled that I believed that. I'm sorry I thought they were possessed back then.

I remember going to the advanced class that year and hearing people whisper "Ralph D left the ministry." We knew it meant something. If only I knew the half of it. I never heard Passing of the Patriarch until I came to GSC. I didn't leave TWI until December 2002. I am convinced Craig made TWI even a bigger cult than VPW did. I known a lot of people who would benefit from hearing this. It really tied up a lot of loose ends for me.

Ralph D. apparently left long before his body did. It just took awhile for his body to catch up.

Obviously Ralph is a man of honor, and he did what he could to make things right without putting his family in harm's way. God speed to him and his family. Thank you for sharing your story.

Oh B.S. He is still running around the block calling "so-and-so" a "possesso" just like the rest of them --- and you still believe these are MOG who teach "The Word" and the way of peace? Give me a fr**king break!

Edited by What The Hey

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really?

it's been a walk of deception, for a long, long time..

what would you do, if you woke up one morning, and came to the realizaton that everything that you thought you believed was just plain wrong..

That all depends on what it is you're believing - or maybe what you're not believing. (Or are you leading this topic into another thread on believing?)

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I can drink some beer tonight to be sure there is plenty of p i s s for your Wheaties in the morning WTH. :rolleyes:

WTF??

Edited by Nottawayfer

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I can drink some beer tonight to be sure there is plenty of p i s s for your Wheaties in the morning WTH. :rolleyes:

WTF??

I suppose you were trying to say something important and worthwhile? Well, just don't wet all over yourself in the process.

:yawn1:

:sleep1:

Edited by What The Hey

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What I am saying is I trust these ex-TWI leaders and what they have to say about each other and about the events that happened "back then" as much as I would trust a 3-dollar bill. Unless you are saying none of them are holding any animosity toward each other at all today. Oh no.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Others consider RD to be a huge exception to the usual rules, since his responses were

completely different, even then (he's not running an offshoot, nor fronting for one, nor

advertising for one, and hasn't been.)

But, you're entitled to disagree.

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Oh B.S. He is still running around the block calling "so-and-so" a "possesso" just like the rest of them --- and you still believe these are MOG who teach "The Word" and the way of peace? Give me a fr**king break!

I'd have to review this before knowing for sure if he used the term "possesso" or not.

(I haven't had a chance yet.)

"Like the rest of them" is an opinion.

Nobody said they believed he was a

"MOG who teaches 'The Word' and the way of peace."

You just invented that claim, then objected to it.

I object to it too-why did you invent it?

You could have skipped it and given us ALL a break....

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What I am saying is I trust these ex-TWI leaders and what they have to say about each other and about the events that happened "back then" as much as I would trust a 3-dollar bill. Unless you are saying none of them are holding any animosity toward each other at all today. Oh no.

What the Hey --- hey there. :)

I was at that meeting in Chicago that Ralph mentioned.

Matter of fact -- I was right next to him with a tape recorder.

I heard him decry the *reverend* aspect, as he spoke --

he looked at me like *Who are YOU -- with that tape recorder????"

I heard him tell others (also there) that this *new thing* wouldn't work.

Don't ask me for the tape --- I don't think I have it anymore.

I honestly can't tell you WHO he was criticizing, except for WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

Ralph made it a point to GET TO THE POINT, and nothing else.

The point (at that time) was the infidelity of twi (spiritually and physically) to you and I.

The ONLY time I heard him talking about folks in particular dealt with ---

those who didn't stack up to, or measure up to the Word.

Now -- if you want to disagree, or discount that, fine. Have at it.

This all isn't *one leader against others*. It's Truth versus Error.

Edited by dmiller

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what is all the bs about?

r and p have a conversation about factual recollections of what went on in twi in the mid and late 80's, through shared experiences, or at least ralphs', at a time many of us are aware of, or were concerned about, and having a similar experience regarding leaving the way immediately afterwards or had already because it was found out to be a deceptive cult .. with whom many did not buy 100% into anyway -

does that make them lesser people or bad people because they found the way lacking in moral integrity and substance, while others didn't?

the cult - known as The Way - lost people because it wasn't a legitimate religious church, by any means, as considered by the churches and neighboring faith-based religions in Ohio and elsewhere, it even managed to make the LIST of cults to avoid by the anti-defamation league in the 80's ...so some chose not to stick around some propped up ministry any longer .. but leave with their dignity and fully communicate to the cult followers that trusted them (who would even listen) ... why whey were going, what they realized, and the following realizations they had.

there is no harm or fowl whatsoever in what ralph did, or anyone that may have approached you at the time, to tell you HEY - THE HOUSE (TWI) IS ON FIRE - GET OUT - so to speak ...

people were very afraid of devil possession back them.

afraid of individuality. creativity. critical thinking. logic. families of believers who saw personality and mental health changes in their loved ones.

must the list go on.

have some forgotten?

i enjoyed the reminder of those days.

it was 'dang or get off the pot' back then

you either got it or you missed it.

the best part of the way experience is that you left it behind you.

if you persue a spiritual life, i hope it's with much discrimination after being so vulnerable once upon a time.

other that that, there is nothing to argue of put anyone down about on the matter.

i read those papers and was blown away. that much i do remember.

others could have and were too afraid to, not anyones' fault.

vulnerability is a bitch, especially when you don't realize you are being taken for a ride.

______________________

off topic (lol) hey, i have a new handle, same person. hope those lame digs in shout out are not about me ... i'm here, get over it.

i might not like you either, so you haven't anything to worry about.

get it.

<;

have a nice day.

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I admire

What the Hey

and

the third Trunk Coordinator

both very much!

Both those fellas have great hearts and vocabularies.

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