"Finally, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous ( Is Arthur Hailey walking in truth?) whatever things are chaste (is a true crime novel chaste?) :blink: ........."
recently, on another thread in this forum, someone demanded to know why i did'nt just "call the cops"?, rather than resort to "just" comforting the wounded?" how utterly shallow and compassionless a question! .......imho, a question easily blurted out by those whose willful ignorance of the profound personal suffering experienced by so many, along with a haughty lack of sincere concern for the psychoemotional terror and pain these fellow humans endured at the hands of their "christian leaders"! apparently, those who would ask such a question have no concept of what professional, therapeutic relationships are.......how fragile those relationships are.......how difficult they are to build and maintain.......and, most importantly, how absolutely necessary it is to protect and defend those relationships in order for them to succeed!
In Christian Counseling, the Breaking Free Series, they spoke of the success rate of counseling. And the highest success rate was based on the relationship, the trust relationship, between the counselor and the counselee. It cannot be broken.
Had that confidence been broken you could have killed those people, and if not killed them, destined them to a lifetime of bondage. The trust relationship was imperative.
Healing does not happen where that relationship is impugned.
Thanks for these posts, DWBH ... they shed a lot of light on things for me.
It was always rather interesting to me that Dottie Moneyhands was encouraged to get her Masters degree in Counseling. I've heard often since then (and do not doubt) that she used that degree to counsel many of the victims of VPW and LCM, to keep them quiet. There's coming a day when she, B*b, and all the others that "counseled" young women to do their "master's" bidding will be judged by an even angrier Judge than me ... than any of us ... and we'll know the "sentence" because we will be there with him and them at the time. It's a part of our Hope.
After this brief journey into "Bible Land," we can now go back to our regularly scheduled program.....
ps. one of the reasons i posted what i did is because a friend of mine went to a psychiatrist to get help from the past and the way ministry, and ended up in an "affair" with him, and he was a horrible control freak abuser.
thank you.
love,ex
That kind of doctor/patient relationship is NOT therapeutic; in AZ it's defined statutorially as UNprofessional conduct (probably in every other state also, but I only know about AZ because of my (no longer held) job having to have my head into state laws and proposed laws); and is cause for revocation of the license of the provider. And if it wasn't a risk facing many patients and health professionals, it wouldn't be spelled out in state law.
recently, on another thread in this forum, someone
demanded to know why i did'nt just "call the cops"?
, rather than
resort to "just" comforting the wounded?"
how utterly shallow and compassionless a question! .......imho, a question easily blurted out by those whose willful ignorance of the profound personal suffering experienced by so many, along with a haughty lack of sincere concern for the psychoemotional terror and pain these fellow humans endured at the hands of their "christian leaders"!apparently, those who would ask such a question have no
concept of what professional, therapeutic relationships
are.......how fragile those relationships are.......how difficult they are to build and maintain.......and, most importantly, how absolutely necessary it is to protect and defend those relationships in order for them to succeed
In Christian Counseling, the Breaking Free Series, they spoke of the success rate of counseling. And the highest success rate was based on the relationship, the trust relationship, between the counselor and the counselee. It cannot be broken.
Had that confidence been broken you could have killed those people, and if not killed them, destined them to a lifetime of bondage. The trust relationship was imperative.
Healing does not happen where that relationship is impugned.
Dot, your story on the other thread was that one of these victims was sent to get other witnesses/victims, and they were gathered with the intent of confronting. The confidentiality was not an issue then. Or do I remember that incorrectly? The number thirteen comes to mind ... victims/witnesses willing to confront.
Here is part of what I asked then, since the false quote above is being repeated, despite me pointing out it is false ... (not to mention the other derisive commentary)
what did he find out?
if he found out about rapes and illegal activities (abusing the flock with sexual predation) ... and went out and comforted a few people ... ummm.. yes... I am a piece of work.
What do you mean "confronted people" ...
I heard about a murder ... and I confronted some people, and comforted the families ... and the murderer was still murdering
My point then and now is that if more harm is continuing, it may well be that further action (involving authorities not in the "household") is required. This is even a legal requirement in certain cases, for REAL counselors ... out of compassion for this or other potential victims.
We don't really have a time frame for these events ... but these "actionable" abuses continued ... I don't know what professional, therapeutic relationships were actually ongoing, but it seems they all ended abruptly when the "counselor" decided to leave HQ.
I'm quite aware of the bond of trust between some counselors and their patients ... I deal with one person on a daily basis that is quite dependent on her various aides, and has been for thirty years. I don't think that type relationship is the real issue here ... at least not in a positive way.
Leaving Don out of this, how many new victims were sent to the corps during these years/decades when victims were being comforted or shuffled out the door, and a cadre of false comforters were nursing the victim's wounds, "in house"?
Sure there is a need for real counseling ... but there is also a greater need to at some point end systematic abuse. That doesn't seem to have happened till VP was gone. There were no heroes. It was a cult.
If Dottie was professionally counseling people that were suffering ongoing abuse, and was aware of the ongoing pattern of abuse ... in the bigger picture, were her patients (and other victims) being healed?
This decades long practice of abuse was hopefully, mostly ended when lcm was brought before civil authorities. John Lynn said ...
Why didn't I speak up before this? Because I didn't really see these things until early in 1987 when I finally began to wake up from the slumber of "group-think" mentality. I apologize for not doing so long ago.
Hopefully this clears up my real concerns ... and my opinion will not be deleted.
The message to the rest of TWI was whitewashed ... "all is well here on Gawd's little green acre ... keep sending money ... and more young women."
Some still believe it is God's one true ministry ... but I am thankful for those that did what they could at the time. Hopefully most are mostly recovered, though life does leave some scars.
Dot, your story on the other thread was that one of these victims was sent to get other witnesses/victims, and they were gathered with the intent of confronting. The confidentiality was not an issue then. Or do I remember that incorrectly
No, I never said anything remotely like that must be someone else
Your point has merit Rhino. I think we all get your point. We just do not all share it.
Depends on which side of the fence you were living, I guess.
I know a person whose husband became a woman. The wife had even gone in with the husband for a joint session and none of this was made known to her. Later, she confronted the therapist, who knew of his proclivities for years, and told the therapist, "you ruined my life."
Then, she, herself, tried to commit suicide and is now in therapy and does not want anyone to know what she did and why she did it. But instability might it affect her job or fellow employees? But if this info was made know would she loose her job then never seek help? Life can be a convoluted mess.
Now granted his “change” did not affected tons of people but it ruined her life.
It depends on which side of the fence you are on, your point is valid.
Ask Don what he found out. I think he again answered what he did in the first post on this thread. He really did his best, better than most and certainly beyond any name calling or finger pointing that should ever happen here at the cafe.
Here is one spot:
there was no question in our minds that these fellow corps grads were telling the truth.......and as more began to seek help, the pattern of abuse and its conspiratorial, serial nature, along with its sources, became more and more obvious!..........in early 1984, after now scores of similar, almost identical horror stories from an ever-growing number of victims, i made the mistake of personally, face-to-face, confronting der victoid with information revealed to me, and to one of my doctor friends, firsthand from a family corps grad, who had been serially sexually abused by vic, along with two of her teenaged daughters, (mini-corps), and a granddaughter!!.........i have recounted this confrontation with vic, which took place on his motorcoach, previously here on 2 other threads!.............vic's terse response.........."son, there are just some things i choose not to discuss with people"!!........then the snarling, teeth-bared tj summoned to "sit" at my feet, while vic exhaled a puff from his kool shorty into my face!.......that dog sat there until "called off" by his "handler", one chris geer.
Perhaps, you just need to see the problem from all sides. It has many sides. And in TWI, Don has a valid point in that, nobody was really qualified to handle the lockbox information being told to them except perhaps Dr. L and when he did some good they shut him down, if I read the post correctly.
Take a walk in his shoes for a moment - I bet you would not have been comfortable and would not have done a better job.
maybe as a young man in a cult you would have, who knows now.
Take a walk in his shoes for a moment - I bet you would not have been comfortable and would not have done a better job.
You know, despite all the claims, I don't think I ever blamed Don ... and I think my more conciliatory remarks on the other thread were overlooked because of being deeply offended on a sensitive issue.
Thanks for pointing out some of what he said about the confrontations. I think those types of vp confrontations would have put most people in some sort of shock ... it is part of the psycho-terror trauma. Then trying to function in the capacity of a healer/leader ... survival was probably a priority. Loaded on that was the baggage of keeping the free world intact by our believing ... a lot was laid on us ... especially the point men.
Still ... I think there is reason to reflect on the greater good that would have occurred if the lcm type lawsuit had been pushed 20 years earlier. This was not one man and one rape/abuse case ... it was systemic and continual and inflicting harm on hundreds.
I certainly understand the arguments for why it was not ... it was the 70's ... we were not trained ... victims are reluctant ... and it was a cult. The TWI powers were mostly united against any such action ...
still ...there were 100 good men and women ... hidden in their little research caves or J/N dens ... ready to rise up ...
heh ... what a mess ...
Church affiliated services still have much to offer ... Jewish Family Services comes to mind ... there are many.
Rhino has insinuated several times, and now recently stated as fact, that real counselors have a legal responsibility to report certain crimes to authorities. I know this is true in cases of child abuse, but have not found where that is true in cases of adult counseling, except when the client is thought to be in danger of extreme injury or is thought to be an extreme risk to themselves or others.
Can anyone shed some reference to this claim of a LEGAL obligation to report (other than involving a child)?
What I HAVE found thus far is that the ethics rules of the profession require that the confidence of the client to be the upmost factor, and should NEVER be risked except in those extreme risk situations. I have seen it stated in some ethics rules that the counselor should NOT do the reporting to authorites, but should attempt to enable the victim to mentally and physically be able do so themselves, ONLY if reporting the crime would be beneficial to their client's recovery.
I am no authority or mental health professional by any means, but when I have helped people through crisis situations in their lives, unless the person was a risk to themselves or others, or AT severe risk of physical harm from others, I have NOT been inclined to violate their confidence by bringing legal authorites into the mix myself.
For example in a rape case, would a professional be required or even expected to report if the client is not willing to do so? I generally have seen the VICTIM encouraged (strongly) to report, but not seen the case reported by a third party.
firsthand from a family corps grad, who had been serially sexually abused by vic, along with two of her teenaged daughters, (mini-corps), and a granddaughter!!.
DW, good topic, and as you say, some very good responses.
I too had little regard for "secular" counselors, since I believed that God alone (and "His Word," of course) were the "answers" people needed. I visited my uncle with my family just before I went into the FC and to this day I cringe at what I might have said in my "enthusiasm" for "Christianity" as it related to his profession. He is a psychoanalyst. I stayed in touch with him through the years, and in my own journey and personal education, I began to let go of my prejudice against mental health professionals. I also began to see that although Jay Adams' methods have merit, they are not the only viable means of helping believers with mental health problems. And "mental health" is a considerable portion of the Christian message: i.e., peace and joy, and also part of what I consider to be what Jesus called "true treasure."
I called Edward (my uncle) after a splinter-group "men's weekend" where some novel techniques were used to try to help people, to get his take on them, as well as just to (finally!) just blankly discuss what he'd learned about helping people in clinical and private practice for some 30 years. We discussed Freud, of course, who I had read, and Carl Jung, who I had found to be fascinating, and who Edward appreciated as well. But mostly we talked about how being "WITH" people is sometimes the greatest key to helping them. Wish I had time to tell you a story he told me about how a severely mentally-disabled gentleman helped Edward with his own mental health (besides, no one can tell the story like Ed himself.)
Years later on a visit to my uncle again, I had to make a point of formally apologizing if I'd said anything that seemed disparaging to his field "back then"; he said he didn't recall ever feeling insulted or dismissed. It may be that I had more sense that I give myself credit for, but only knew what was in my heart.
Freud was quite a nutcase himself, in my view. A brilliant nutcase, sure. Reading him is not unlike reading the PFAL book. He's positively Wierwillian in his "certainties" and self-regard. Remember the line, I think it was in the class... referring to someone else as a blowhard..... "I'VE got THE ANSWERS!"
But we live in a post-Freudian and post-Wierwillian age, thanks be to God, and the biblical wisdom still beckons to us: "prove all things; hold fast to that which is good."
Edit: somehow I missed a bunch of posts that have now magically appeared, and again, some wonderful discussion/ comments. Really, really good stuff. My favorite, though, was Juan's.... enjoy your vacation!
Jay Adams' book was as anemic as most stuff sold in Christian bookstores IMHO. It preapred me for coiunseling about as well as Hal Lindsay's book prepared me for predicting the future.
Rhino has insinuated several times, and now recently stated as fact, that real counselors have a legal responsibility to report certain crimes to authorities. I know this is true in cases of child abuse, but have not found where that is true in cases of adult counseling, except when the client is thought to be in danger of extreme injury or is thought to be an extreme risk to themselves or others.
Why not just use the quote button, instead of giving your interpretation of what I said? What exactly did you say I stated "as a fact"?
My point then and now is that if more harm is continuing, it may well be that further action (involving authorities not in the "household") is required. This is even a legal requirement
in certain cases
, for REAL counselors ... out of compassion
for this or other potential victims
.
Yes, I read the Googled confidentiality exceptions ...
A single rape is not an ongoing event. I gave the example of if a murderer was still murdering ... but I only saw one reference to where harm outside the patient himself was included, except for elderly or children.
But vp was confronted, so the information was out there. ... I am also curious on exactly what the rules are ... for a professional. But encouraging action for the greater good is certainly allowed/recommended I'd think. Wouldn't a counselee be encouraged to come forward to prevent further murder?
The standard, that confidentiality is not absolute when further harm may be prevented, is established. I believe the mentally ill are also covered in some cases ... and perhaps those in the cult that are systematically set up for rape/abuse ... would fit under that umbrella.
The idea seems that if those that are incapable of fending for themselves (children, elderly, mentally ill, cultists?) are endangered ... authorities must be contacted.
Please use quotes .. rather than making up what I said ... it is getting old.
To your other post, all this appeared while I was writing to you
Yeah Rhino
With what I know now - If I could go back I would press a law suit.
At this age LCM is not a frightening vein popping monster and Vic is just a small endowed ego maniac on a farm.
But at the time LCM frightened me and Vic, well, he held the power of God's love in his hands - ya know
It was a lot to loose.
I know I told people about the stuff trying to find help. Ya know what I found out? They were all in on it or powerless. It was a journey then, going forward in a blind fog. Looking back it is a clear path of stupid weirdo men who screamed a lot. At the time they held our spirituality in their hands.
Hap
Legally they have to report it if they are a danger to themselves or to others.
Why not just use the quote button, instead of giving your interpretation of what I said? What exactly did you say I stated "as a fact"?
My point then and now is that if more harm is continuing, it may well be that further action (involving authorities not in the "household") is required. This is even a legal requirement
in certain cases
, for REAL counselors ... out of compassion
for this or other potential victims
.
Yes, I read the Googled confidentiality exceptions ...
. ... I am also curious on exactly what the rules are ... for a professional. But encouraging action for the greater good is certainly allowed/recommended I'd think. Wouldn't a counselee be encouraged to come forward to prevent further murder?
............
Please use quotes .. rather than making up what I said ... it is getting old.
I have not seen murder to be the subject of this thread. If indeed it is a legal requirement for licensed counselors to report murder or possible murder is not an issue on this thread so why use it to infer that those who helped TWI abuse victims should have gone further and reported to authorities?
I am not trying to engage you in an argument Rhino, it is never seems fruitful to the discussions and I have stated I do not wish to go back and forth with you on any of the threads, so I will NOT respond to your other questions.
I am asking someone to verify what the legal requirement is to report, in the cases that ARE the subject of this thread.
I will use quotes when I feel like it, whether it is getting old to you or not. Usually I hit "fast reply" so as not to clutter up the page with repeats. I did not misrepresent what you said, and I even used your escape words of REAL, and CERTAIN CASES. Previously you said 'you think', or, 'it seems', or, 'I believe' (I am not gonna go back to find out which of those 'escape' words you used), but any of them indicate the comment is your opinion which of course you are very free and adept at sharing with us.
In the post I was referring to in my last post, you stated "this is even legal requirement......" - that is 'stating as fact' an argument I am not certain is true in the cases at issue on this thread. I am simply asking for ANYONE to verify this "fact". I have not been able to find verification as it applies to the cases discussed thus far on this thread by everyone, other than you (when you spoke of murder in what I think was a non-TWI case). apparently by what you wrote about googling, you have not located verification either.
I am NOT saying it is not a legal requirement, I DO NOT KNOW, and am asking if one of the professionals here can verify your claim as it applies to THIS discussion since you have said it 3 times and so, 'it seems to me', apparently is a focal point of your argument that those involved should have reported these cases to authorities, even though in my opinion it is possible that doing so would have been in violation of the ethics rules of the profession and damaging to their clients' well-being.
Still ... I think there is reason to reflect on the greater good that would have occurred if the lcm type lawsuit had been pushed 20 years earlier. This was not one man and one rape/abuse case ... it was systemic and continual and inflicting harm on hundreds.
MY POINT what we have TODAY is not what we had 20 years ago.
The good guys did the best they could with what they had.
The rules vary from state to state and certainly could be different than they were in the late '70s and early to mid '80s.
From what I understand, if you were to go to a doctor for a broken arm and the doctor suspected abuse, the doc would be obligated to report it.
BUT - if you're going to a psychiatrist or psychologist because you are seeking help from abuse - there is no obligation to report unless he or she thinks you will either harm yourself or others.
Now- going back to that time. It seems to me that a form of triage was necessary.
Take care of the victims first, then confront the malefactors. (both done)
Confrontation must have been tricky because, once again there were confidences to maintain.
I don't know how anyone could have gone to the authorities unless victims were willing to take it to court.
But the victims were broken and confused. Would you push a new below-the-knee amputee to run a marathon? Of course not. Even if that was the right thing to do for that person, you would give them time to heal, both physically and emotionally, before asking them to endure a major undertaking.
How much more complicated would this have been in a cult where the victims believed they were somehow in danger of losing Gawd's approval or protection?
If we are talking about harm being done in the current Way. What is calling the authorities going to do? Don't you think the Way is known by the authorities? They can go in and cause a Waco style mess, or pull out all the kids--only to give them back like the Texas cult. But, doesn't there have to be specific evidence and charges or complaints for the authorities to act? They have to investegate. If someone is being held against there will there, that is one thing. But, calling the police because we say there is harm is another. The kids are probably fat and sassy and in their mamma's care. It is much more difficult to prove something unless a victim steps forward and makes a complaint.
As for what happened in the past. . . . I cannot imagine that flood gate that opened up, once someone actually understood what was happening and it was WRONG. It took a whole lot for a few to see it--and then to stand against the prevailing belief system in the leadership. Talk about spitting into the wind. If they had just called the authorities what would have happened? All better now? I doubt it. Nut jobs carrying guns while attack dogs were held on people. Could have gotten very ugly---very fast.
I am thankful for the lawsuits and have real sorrow for the victims, but I can picture the bloodbath if troopers came in. All anyone could do was take a victim to the authorities--or counsel them to go. But, they had better have been ready to have somewhere to go--money in a bank other than the Way Credit Union, and some provision for their own family. Considering the ties we severed and our limited interaction with the world at large--that would take some preperation. Sounds like it unfolded like it had to. Calling the authorities--would have lead to what? A closing of the Way? I am not so sure. Abuse continued long after the 80's. Without a lawsuit or sustainable charge--nothing happened. NO ONE seemed willing to take it that far. . . . until the Allens--I can't imagine what courage it took them. Sorry blame does not fall at a few chosen feet.
Seems hindsight is limited if we forget just how controlled and really wrapped up our lives were in this organization.
the primary, legal policies and procedures governing the current client/provider relationship are covered by the Health Insurance Portability Accountability Act 1996, commonly referred to as HIPAA..........this is a matter of strictest enforcement, and has been a major point of focus throughout the healthcare delivery systems in our country since its enactment.......every healthcare facility in the country is governed by HIPAA, and every employee of any healthcare delivery system, as well as private practitioners in all healthcare disciplines is/are absolutely required to abide by and uphold HIPAA in every aspect of their operation and practice. hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent by the human resources, risk management, and legal departments of every healthcare facility in the country, on educating and training ALL employees, at every level of the organization regarding the strict requirements placed on all employees regarding the conduct prescribed by HIPAA.........here's a link to the dept of HHS official policies regarding the right to privacy of all patients/clients...............<H2 class=r>SUMMARY OF THE HIPAA PRIVACY RULE</H2>File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
to all my fellow greasespotters:
regarding the incident i referred to in my first post on this thread.........i was asked by the person who confided in me what she described happened to her and her chikdren, if i would confront vic.........she felt, at that time, that she could not tell her own husband for fear that he would either collapse with a heart attack or stroke if she told him, or if not that, she feared he would "murder" vic!...........in late 1987, in the parking lot of a well-known restaurant in a large midwestern city......i had the unfortunate task of informing that man.........a family corps grad and "pillar of the church" for years in twi, of what i recounted in that post!........he was 58 years old at that time, and he collapsed in tears on the ground when i told him!!.......i sat on that paved parking lot, holding this sobbing man in my lap for 35 minutes until he regained his composure!........vic is fortunate he was already dead, because, as his wife had feared, this man would most certainly have gone after him in his understandable rage!
as a healthcare provider, i am responsible, in my state, to report suspected child abuse, or elder abuse to my clinical managers, and the social workers in our facility.........no one is required by law to report cases of rape involving competent adults, unless such patients present for care claiming to have been raped, AND, agree to undergo the entire specimen gathering and testing process as prescribed by the laws governing such cases.......exceptions apply only to minors, or elders who are deemed "incompetent", or "unable" to act on their own....... it is the patient's responsibility to report the rape to the law enforcement authorities, or to request in writing, (usually various official printed forms supplied by the facility), that the healthcare providers "call the cops"..........it is also up to the victim to decide whether or not to pursue prosecution of the perpetrator........if anyone of the providers were to report the rape without the specific written authorization to do so, each would be in violation of HIPAA, and subject to immediate suspension without pay, severe fines, (up to $50,000 for the first offense), and subject to prosecution by the sate as well as the victim, in both criminal and civil cases!
i will state this once, and only once..........not one of the literally hundreds of victims of sexual abuse at the hands of vic, king okie, or any other "twi leaders" that i personally counselled, ever decided to prosecute those perverts!........yes, i encouraged several to do so........but, none decided to do so........their reasons were and are just that........THEIR REASONS!!!..........had i gone against their decisions, for whatever reasons, i would have been subject to not only prosecution, etc.,.......but i would have been viciously attacked by the perps in addition.........thereby putting my wife and children at terrible risk..........
during my time in that foolish "yak twig", i spent hundreds of hours, face-to-face with the doofus from okie, as well as the other "trustees", except for ricardo caballero, confronting them on specific incidents of their sexual abuse of scores of twi women, who had reported their abuse to me personally, AND given me permission to confront their abusers on their behalf!........there were times during those 8 months, when there were literally lines of women in my trailer, waiting to tell me "their story".........it was an overwhelmingly stressful and fatiguing effort in futility, as it turned out!..........but, i persisted, until the telex came from the wizard of oz in scotland, read to me in november,1986, by DEW, at the morning "yak twig" meeting, that i "was no longer in control of mind", and that my presence in that "yak twig" was no longer of any benefit........i was told to continue "working with the corps", out in the woods, fields or the kipp farm.......but not in any "official" capacity...........i resigned from twi at that time, and was kept under "house arrest" with armed "bless patrol" and their dobermans, living in my trailer with my wife and three small children, ages 7, 4, and 2.........until the wizard could help the "yaks" figure out how to "handle" my resignation and departure from twi!!!........the infamous "clergy meeting" at which the fully armed and bullet-proof vest wearing wizard "officiated" transpired during that time, and shortly thereafter, i was allowed to leave.........after reading a pre-approved-by-the-wizard, resignation statement to the in-rez corps, in which i was told to state that my resiganation was for "personal reasons" pertaining to myself and my family..........i agreed to do so in order to protect my family and myself from what i perceived to be very "clear and present danger"!
once away from the "twi family compound", i spent two years responding to numerous invitations from twi fellowships around the US and several foreign countries, to come and tell them what was really going on in twi which prompted my resignation.........i did so while i myself was trying to figure out how to provide for my family in the future, as well as trying to figure out what in the hell we had all just spent the previous 16 years of our lives "believing and doing"...........what were you doing during this time rhino????
perhaps now, we can return to the topic of this thread, which has been of some value and help to at least several of our fellow greasespotters!..........thanks again to those of you who have responded appropriately, honestly, and compassionately to this thread!..........please feel free to continue doing so..........please!..................................peace.
Still ... I think there is reason to reflect on the greater good that would have occurred if the lcm type lawsuit had been pushed 20 years earlier. This was not one man and one rape/abuse case ... it was systemic and continual and inflicting harm on hundreds.
Think about this for a second. You're a married man and you find out your wife is getting boinked by the MOG.
You pick your cojones up off the floor... then you run through all the emotions: hate, hurt, shame, anger, confusion.
Then the questions flood in - do I still love her? want her? can we fix this? Where's Gawd in all of this? How do I kill the sunovabeetch? What do I do now? What do we do now? What can we do now?
Should you even think about a lawsuit, there's the he said/she said factor. Assuming you still love your wife and she's wanting to follow you out of the cornfield are either of you up to the grueling cross-examination?
Possible scenario:
The accusation that she (and possibly you) were complicit to the act would certainly be made. Afterall, you surely must have suspected something? No? Hmmmm, well mr rhino, why didn't you know? Maybe you were doing the same on the other side of the cornfield....
Once again, making the victim look like the bad guy.
Thank you to those who responded to my question. From my end, the question of whether these cases should have/COULD have been reported has been answered satisfactorily as it applies to any possible accusations against the counselors or the victims.
I look forward to watching from afar unless I decide it would be beneficial to share one of the "ill-prepared" counselor stories I am personally aware of.
Dot/Hap I don't have the citation because I am not going to dig through my divorce papers - heck I don't even know if I could find them. However in CA a divorce requires mediation. Court mediation is a 20 minute perfunctory process. On the advice of both attorneys we opted for private mediate... provided by a licensed psychologist who specializes in divorces. Indeed I remember signing a "release" about being required by law to report if a client showed danger to themselves or others - then went on to list a few things - suicide - assault - I can't remember them all - but I do remember the release.
Also in FL - where my BIL is a practicing psychiatrist - the same rules apply. In fact in FL if a person is admitted to a hospital for things like self-inflicted wounds, even a drug overdose, a psychiatric evaluation is required and the same "rules" apply.
Now - given that since I did not give any citations - in all honesty it is hearsay from me.
To your other post, all this appeared while I was writing to you
...snip...
Hap
Legally they have to report it if they are a danger to themselves or to others.
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Phillipians 4 verse 8 brothers:
"Finally, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous ( Is Arthur Hailey walking in truth?) whatever things are chaste (is a true crime novel chaste?) :blink: ........."
Ah yes.
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Dot Matrix
Don stated
In Christian Counseling, the Breaking Free Series, they spoke of the success rate of counseling. And the highest success rate was based on the relationship, the trust relationship, between the counselor and the counselee. It cannot be broken.
Had that confidence been broken you could have killed those people, and if not killed them, destined them to a lifetime of bondage. The trust relationship was imperative.
Healing does not happen where that relationship is impugned.
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DogLover
Thanks for these posts, DWBH ... they shed a lot of light on things for me.
It was always rather interesting to me that Dottie Moneyhands was encouraged to get her Masters degree in Counseling. I've heard often since then (and do not doubt) that she used that degree to counsel many of the victims of VPW and LCM, to keep them quiet. There's coming a day when she, B*b, and all the others that "counseled" young women to do their "master's" bidding will be judged by an even angrier Judge than me ... than any of us ... and we'll know the "sentence" because we will be there with him and them at the time. It's a part of our Hope.
After this brief journey into "Bible Land," we can now go back to our regularly scheduled program.....
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Rocky
That kind of doctor/patient relationship is NOT therapeutic; in AZ it's defined statutorially as UNprofessional conduct (probably in every other state also, but I only know about AZ because of my (no longer held) job having to have my head into state laws and proposed laws); and is cause for revocation of the license of the provider. And if it wasn't a risk facing many patients and health professionals, it wouldn't be spelled out in state law.
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rhino
Dot, your story on the other thread was that one of these victims was sent to get other witnesses/victims, and they were gathered with the intent of confronting. The confidentiality was not an issue then. Or do I remember that incorrectly? The number thirteen comes to mind ... victims/witnesses willing to confront.
Here is part of what I asked then, since the false quote above is being repeated, despite me pointing out it is false ... (not to mention the other derisive commentary)
My point then and now is that if more harm is continuing, it may well be that further action (involving authorities not in the "household") is required. This is even a legal requirement in certain cases, for REAL counselors ... out of compassion for this or other potential victims.
We don't really have a time frame for these events ... but these "actionable" abuses continued ... I don't know what professional, therapeutic relationships were actually ongoing, but it seems they all ended abruptly when the "counselor" decided to leave HQ.
I'm quite aware of the bond of trust between some counselors and their patients ... I deal with one person on a daily basis that is quite dependent on her various aides, and has been for thirty years. I don't think that type relationship is the real issue here ... at least not in a positive way.
Leaving Don out of this, how many new victims were sent to the corps during these years/decades when victims were being comforted or shuffled out the door, and a cadre of false comforters were nursing the victim's wounds, "in house"?
Sure there is a need for real counseling ... but there is also a greater need to at some point end systematic abuse. That doesn't seem to have happened till VP was gone. There were no heroes. It was a cult.
If Dottie was professionally counseling people that were suffering ongoing abuse, and was aware of the ongoing pattern of abuse ... in the bigger picture, were her patients (and other victims) being healed?
This decades long practice of abuse was hopefully, mostly ended when lcm was brought before civil authorities. John Lynn said ...
Hopefully this clears up my real concerns ... and my opinion will not be deleted.
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rhino
The message to the rest of TWI was whitewashed ... "all is well here on Gawd's little green acre ... keep sending money ... and more young women."
Some still believe it is God's one true ministry ... but I am thankful for those that did what they could at the time. Hopefully most are mostly recovered, though life does leave some scars.
Have a nice day ...
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Dot Matrix
No, I never said anything remotely like that must be someone else
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Dot Matrix
Your point has merit Rhino. I think we all get your point. We just do not all share it.
Depends on which side of the fence you were living, I guess.
I know a person whose husband became a woman. The wife had even gone in with the husband for a joint session and none of this was made known to her. Later, she confronted the therapist, who knew of his proclivities for years, and told the therapist, "you ruined my life."
Then, she, herself, tried to commit suicide and is now in therapy and does not want anyone to know what she did and why she did it. But instability might it affect her job or fellow employees? But if this info was made know would she loose her job then never seek help? Life can be a convoluted mess.
Now granted his “change” did not affected tons of people but it ruined her life.
It depends on which side of the fence you are on, your point is valid.
Ask Don what he found out. I think he again answered what he did in the first post on this thread. He really did his best, better than most and certainly beyond any name calling or finger pointing that should ever happen here at the cafe.
Here is one spot:
Perhaps, you just need to see the problem from all sides. It has many sides. And in TWI, Don has a valid point in that, nobody was really qualified to handle the lockbox information being told to them except perhaps Dr. L and when he did some good they shut him down, if I read the post correctly.
Take a walk in his shoes for a moment - I bet you would not have been comfortable and would not have done a better job.
maybe as a young man in a cult you would have, who knows now.
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rhino
You know, despite all the claims, I don't think I ever blamed Don ... and I think my more conciliatory remarks on the other thread were overlooked because of being deeply offended on a sensitive issue.
Thanks for pointing out some of what he said about the confrontations. I think those types of vp confrontations would have put most people in some sort of shock ... it is part of the psycho-terror trauma. Then trying to function in the capacity of a healer/leader ... survival was probably a priority. Loaded on that was the baggage of keeping the free world intact by our believing ... a lot was laid on us ... especially the point men.
Still ... I think there is reason to reflect on the greater good that would have occurred if the lcm type lawsuit had been pushed 20 years earlier. This was not one man and one rape/abuse case ... it was systemic and continual and inflicting harm on hundreds.
I certainly understand the arguments for why it was not ... it was the 70's ... we were not trained ... victims are reluctant ... and it was a cult. The TWI powers were mostly united against any such action ...
still ...there were 100 good men and women ... hidden in their little research caves or J/N dens ... ready to rise up ...
heh ... what a mess ...
Church affiliated services still have much to offer ... Jewish Family Services comes to mind ... there are many.
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HAPe4me
Rhino has insinuated several times, and now recently stated as fact, that real counselors have a legal responsibility to report certain crimes to authorities. I know this is true in cases of child abuse, but have not found where that is true in cases of adult counseling, except when the client is thought to be in danger of extreme injury or is thought to be an extreme risk to themselves or others.
Can anyone shed some reference to this claim of a LEGAL obligation to report (other than involving a child)?
What I HAVE found thus far is that the ethics rules of the profession require that the confidence of the client to be the upmost factor, and should NEVER be risked except in those extreme risk situations. I have seen it stated in some ethics rules that the counselor should NOT do the reporting to authorites, but should attempt to enable the victim to mentally and physically be able do so themselves, ONLY if reporting the crime would be beneficial to their client's recovery.
I am no authority or mental health professional by any means, but when I have helped people through crisis situations in their lives, unless the person was a risk to themselves or others, or AT severe risk of physical harm from others, I have NOT been inclined to violate their confidence by bringing legal authorites into the mix myself.
For example in a rape case, would a professional be required or even expected to report if the client is not willing to do so? I generally have seen the VICTIM encouraged (strongly) to report, but not seen the case reported by a third party.
Citations anyone?
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Ductape
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anotherDan
DW, good topic, and as you say, some very good responses.
I too had little regard for "secular" counselors, since I believed that God alone (and "His Word," of course) were the "answers" people needed. I visited my uncle with my family just before I went into the FC and to this day I cringe at what I might have said in my "enthusiasm" for "Christianity" as it related to his profession. He is a psychoanalyst. I stayed in touch with him through the years, and in my own journey and personal education, I began to let go of my prejudice against mental health professionals. I also began to see that although Jay Adams' methods have merit, they are not the only viable means of helping believers with mental health problems. And "mental health" is a considerable portion of the Christian message: i.e., peace and joy, and also part of what I consider to be what Jesus called "true treasure."
I called Edward (my uncle) after a splinter-group "men's weekend" where some novel techniques were used to try to help people, to get his take on them, as well as just to (finally!) just blankly discuss what he'd learned about helping people in clinical and private practice for some 30 years. We discussed Freud, of course, who I had read, and Carl Jung, who I had found to be fascinating, and who Edward appreciated as well. But mostly we talked about how being "WITH" people is sometimes the greatest key to helping them. Wish I had time to tell you a story he told me about how a severely mentally-disabled gentleman helped Edward with his own mental health (besides, no one can tell the story like Ed himself.)
Years later on a visit to my uncle again, I had to make a point of formally apologizing if I'd said anything that seemed disparaging to his field "back then"; he said he didn't recall ever feeling insulted or dismissed. It may be that I had more sense that I give myself credit for, but only knew what was in my heart.
Freud was quite a nutcase himself, in my view. A brilliant nutcase, sure. Reading him is not unlike reading the PFAL book. He's positively Wierwillian in his "certainties" and self-regard. Remember the line, I think it was in the class... referring to someone else as a blowhard..... "I'VE got THE ANSWERS!"
But we live in a post-Freudian and post-Wierwillian age, thanks be to God, and the biblical wisdom still beckons to us: "prove all things; hold fast to that which is good."
Edit: somehow I missed a bunch of posts that have now magically appeared, and again, some wonderful discussion/ comments. Really, really good stuff. My favorite, though, was Juan's.... enjoy your vacation!
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rhino
Why not just use the quote button, instead of giving your interpretation of what I said? What exactly did you say I stated "as a fact"?
Yes, I read the Googled confidentiality exceptions ...
A single rape is not an ongoing event. I gave the example of if a murderer was still murdering ... but I only saw one reference to where harm outside the patient himself was included, except for elderly or children.
But vp was confronted, so the information was out there. ... I am also curious on exactly what the rules are ... for a professional. But encouraging action for the greater good is certainly allowed/recommended I'd think. Wouldn't a counselee be encouraged to come forward to prevent further murder?
The standard, that confidentiality is not absolute when further harm may be prevented, is established. I believe the mentally ill are also covered in some cases ... and perhaps those in the cult that are systematically set up for rape/abuse ... would fit under that umbrella.
The idea seems that if those that are incapable of fending for themselves (children, elderly, mentally ill, cultists?) are endangered ... authorities must be contacted.
Please use quotes .. rather than making up what I said ... it is getting old.
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Dot Matrix
To your other post, all this appeared while I was writing to you
Yeah Rhino
With what I know now - If I could go back I would press a law suit.
At this age LCM is not a frightening vein popping monster and Vic is just a small endowed ego maniac on a farm.
But at the time LCM frightened me and Vic, well, he held the power of God's love in his hands - ya know
It was a lot to loose.
I know I told people about the stuff trying to find help. Ya know what I found out? They were all in on it or powerless. It was a journey then, going forward in a blind fog. Looking back it is a clear path of stupid weirdo men who screamed a lot. At the time they held our spirituality in their hands.
Hap
Legally they have to report it if they are a danger to themselves or to others.
Now, you have to define danger...
I know people who just lived through this.
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HAPe4me
I have not seen murder to be the subject of this thread. If indeed it is a legal requirement for licensed counselors to report murder or possible murder is not an issue on this thread so why use it to infer that those who helped TWI abuse victims should have gone further and reported to authorities?
I am not trying to engage you in an argument Rhino, it is never seems fruitful to the discussions and I have stated I do not wish to go back and forth with you on any of the threads, so I will NOT respond to your other questions.
I am asking someone to verify what the legal requirement is to report, in the cases that ARE the subject of this thread.
I will use quotes when I feel like it, whether it is getting old to you or not. Usually I hit "fast reply" so as not to clutter up the page with repeats. I did not misrepresent what you said, and I even used your escape words of REAL, and CERTAIN CASES. Previously you said 'you think', or, 'it seems', or, 'I believe' (I am not gonna go back to find out which of those 'escape' words you used), but any of them indicate the comment is your opinion which of course you are very free and adept at sharing with us.
In the post I was referring to in my last post, you stated "this is even legal requirement......" - that is 'stating as fact' an argument I am not certain is true in the cases at issue on this thread. I am simply asking for ANYONE to verify this "fact". I have not been able to find verification as it applies to the cases discussed thus far on this thread by everyone, other than you (when you spoke of murder in what I think was a non-TWI case). apparently by what you wrote about googling, you have not located verification either.
I am NOT saying it is not a legal requirement, I DO NOT KNOW, and am asking if one of the professionals here can verify your claim as it applies to THIS discussion since you have said it 3 times and so, 'it seems to me', apparently is a focal point of your argument that those involved should have reported these cases to authorities, even though in my opinion it is possible that doing so would have been in violation of the ethics rules of the profession and damaging to their clients' well-being.
With all the respect I can muster,
~HAP
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Dot Matrix
MY POINT what we have TODAY is not what we had 20 years ago.
The good guys did the best they could with what they had.
Back to therapy....
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doojable
I did some checking around. Here's a pretty good link on Doctor/patient confidentiality and privilege.
http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclo...confidentiality
The rules vary from state to state and certainly could be different than they were in the late '70s and early to mid '80s.
From what I understand, if you were to go to a doctor for a broken arm and the doctor suspected abuse, the doc would be obligated to report it.
BUT - if you're going to a psychiatrist or psychologist because you are seeking help from abuse - there is no obligation to report unless he or she thinks you will either harm yourself or others.
Now- going back to that time. It seems to me that a form of triage was necessary.
Take care of the victims first, then confront the malefactors. (both done)
Confrontation must have been tricky because, once again there were confidences to maintain.
I don't know how anyone could have gone to the authorities unless victims were willing to take it to court.
But the victims were broken and confused. Would you push a new below-the-knee amputee to run a marathon? Of course not. Even if that was the right thing to do for that person, you would give them time to heal, both physically and emotionally, before asking them to endure a major undertaking.
How much more complicated would this have been in a cult where the victims believed they were somehow in danger of losing Gawd's approval or protection?
Maybe I'm not understanding your points, rhino.
Are you asking why the victims only went to SL?
Who are you suggesting would do the reporting?
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geisha779
If we are talking about harm being done in the current Way. What is calling the authorities going to do? Don't you think the Way is known by the authorities? They can go in and cause a Waco style mess, or pull out all the kids--only to give them back like the Texas cult. But, doesn't there have to be specific evidence and charges or complaints for the authorities to act? They have to investegate. If someone is being held against there will there, that is one thing. But, calling the police because we say there is harm is another. The kids are probably fat and sassy and in their mamma's care. It is much more difficult to prove something unless a victim steps forward and makes a complaint.
As for what happened in the past. . . . I cannot imagine that flood gate that opened up, once someone actually understood what was happening and it was WRONG. It took a whole lot for a few to see it--and then to stand against the prevailing belief system in the leadership. Talk about spitting into the wind. If they had just called the authorities what would have happened? All better now? I doubt it. Nut jobs carrying guns while attack dogs were held on people. Could have gotten very ugly---very fast.
I am thankful for the lawsuits and have real sorrow for the victims, but I can picture the bloodbath if troopers came in. All anyone could do was take a victim to the authorities--or counsel them to go. But, they had better have been ready to have somewhere to go--money in a bank other than the Way Credit Union, and some provision for their own family. Considering the ties we severed and our limited interaction with the world at large--that would take some preperation. Sounds like it unfolded like it had to. Calling the authorities--would have lead to what? A closing of the Way? I am not so sure. Abuse continued long after the 80's. Without a lawsuit or sustainable charge--nothing happened. NO ONE seemed willing to take it that far. . . . until the Allens--I can't imagine what courage it took them. Sorry blame does not fall at a few chosen feet.
Seems hindsight is limited if we forget just how controlled and really wrapped up our lives were in this organization.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya hap!
the primary, legal policies and procedures governing the current client/provider relationship are covered by the Health Insurance Portability Accountability Act 1996, commonly referred to as HIPAA..........this is a matter of strictest enforcement, and has been a major point of focus throughout the healthcare delivery systems in our country since its enactment.......every healthcare facility in the country is governed by HIPAA, and every employee of any healthcare delivery system, as well as private practitioners in all healthcare disciplines is/are absolutely required to abide by and uphold HIPAA in every aspect of their operation and practice. hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent by the human resources, risk management, and legal departments of every healthcare facility in the country, on educating and training ALL employees, at every level of the organization regarding the strict requirements placed on all employees regarding the conduct prescribed by HIPAA.........here's a link to the dept of HHS official policies regarding the right to privacy of all patients/clients...............<H2 class=r>SUMMARY OF THE HIPAA PRIVACY RULE</H2>File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
to all my fellow greasespotters:
regarding the incident i referred to in my first post on this thread.........i was asked by the person who confided in me what she described happened to her and her chikdren, if i would confront vic.........she felt, at that time, that she could not tell her own husband for fear that he would either collapse with a heart attack or stroke if she told him, or if not that, she feared he would "murder" vic!...........in late 1987, in the parking lot of a well-known restaurant in a large midwestern city......i had the unfortunate task of informing that man.........a family corps grad and "pillar of the church" for years in twi, of what i recounted in that post!........he was 58 years old at that time, and he collapsed in tears on the ground when i told him!!.......i sat on that paved parking lot, holding this sobbing man in my lap for 35 minutes until he regained his composure!........vic is fortunate he was already dead, because, as his wife had feared, this man would most certainly have gone after him in his understandable rage!
as a healthcare provider, i am responsible, in my state, to report suspected child abuse, or elder abuse to my clinical managers, and the social workers in our facility.........no one is required by law to report cases of rape involving competent adults, unless such patients present for care claiming to have been raped, AND, agree to undergo the entire specimen gathering and testing process as prescribed by the laws governing such cases.......exceptions apply only to minors, or elders who are deemed "incompetent", or "unable" to act on their own....... it is the patient's responsibility to report the rape to the law enforcement authorities, or to request in writing, (usually various official printed forms supplied by the facility), that the healthcare providers "call the cops"..........it is also up to the victim to decide whether or not to pursue prosecution of the perpetrator........if anyone of the providers were to report the rape without the specific written authorization to do so, each would be in violation of HIPAA, and subject to immediate suspension without pay, severe fines, (up to $50,000 for the first offense), and subject to prosecution by the sate as well as the victim, in both criminal and civil cases!
i will state this once, and only once..........not one of the literally hundreds of victims of sexual abuse at the hands of vic, king okie, or any other "twi leaders" that i personally counselled, ever decided to prosecute those perverts!........yes, i encouraged several to do so........but, none decided to do so........their reasons were and are just that........THEIR REASONS!!!..........had i gone against their decisions, for whatever reasons, i would have been subject to not only prosecution, etc.,.......but i would have been viciously attacked by the perps in addition.........thereby putting my wife and children at terrible risk..........
during my time in that foolish "yak twig", i spent hundreds of hours, face-to-face with the doofus from okie, as well as the other "trustees", except for ricardo caballero, confronting them on specific incidents of their sexual abuse of scores of twi women, who had reported their abuse to me personally, AND given me permission to confront their abusers on their behalf!........there were times during those 8 months, when there were literally lines of women in my trailer, waiting to tell me "their story".........it was an overwhelmingly stressful and fatiguing effort in futility, as it turned out!..........but, i persisted, until the telex came from the wizard of oz in scotland, read to me in november,1986, by DEW, at the morning "yak twig" meeting, that i "was no longer in control of mind", and that my presence in that "yak twig" was no longer of any benefit........i was told to continue "working with the corps", out in the woods, fields or the kipp farm.......but not in any "official" capacity...........i resigned from twi at that time, and was kept under "house arrest" with armed "bless patrol" and their dobermans, living in my trailer with my wife and three small children, ages 7, 4, and 2.........until the wizard could help the "yaks" figure out how to "handle" my resignation and departure from twi!!!........the infamous "clergy meeting" at which the fully armed and bullet-proof vest wearing wizard "officiated" transpired during that time, and shortly thereafter, i was allowed to leave.........after reading a pre-approved-by-the-wizard, resignation statement to the in-rez corps, in which i was told to state that my resiganation was for "personal reasons" pertaining to myself and my family..........i agreed to do so in order to protect my family and myself from what i perceived to be very "clear and present danger"!
once away from the "twi family compound", i spent two years responding to numerous invitations from twi fellowships around the US and several foreign countries, to come and tell them what was really going on in twi which prompted my resignation.........i did so while i myself was trying to figure out how to provide for my family in the future, as well as trying to figure out what in the hell we had all just spent the previous 16 years of our lives "believing and doing"...........what were you doing during this time rhino????
perhaps now, we can return to the topic of this thread, which has been of some value and help to at least several of our fellow greasespotters!..........thanks again to those of you who have responded appropriately, honestly, and compassionately to this thread!..........please feel free to continue doing so..........please!..................................peace.
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doojable
Think about this for a second. You're a married man and you find out your wife is getting boinked by the MOG.
You pick your cojones up off the floor... then you run through all the emotions: hate, hurt, shame, anger, confusion.
Then the questions flood in - do I still love her? want her? can we fix this? Where's Gawd in all of this? How do I kill the sunovabeetch? What do I do now? What do we do now? What can we do now?
Should you even think about a lawsuit, there's the he said/she said factor. Assuming you still love your wife and she's wanting to follow you out of the cornfield are either of you up to the grueling cross-examination?
Possible scenario:
The accusation that she (and possibly you) were complicit to the act would certainly be made. Afterall, you surely must have suspected something? No? Hmmmm, well mr rhino, why didn't you know? Maybe you were doing the same on the other side of the cornfield....
Once again, making the victim look like the bad guy.
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HAPe4me
Thank you to those who responded to my question. From my end, the question of whether these cases should have/COULD have been reported has been answered satisfactorily as it applies to any possible accusations against the counselors or the victims.
I look forward to watching from afar unless I decide it would be beneficial to share one of the "ill-prepared" counselor stories I am personally aware of.
~HAP
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Dot Matrix
Here is one:
I know a girl ready to go into the one-year spouse corps program who was with child.
She was advised - he who vow a vow - and told to have an abortion.
I think that is bad counsel
We all counseled from the wrong idiotic doctrine we were taught by the park bench sleeping now I am saved twig leaders (I am being sarcastic)
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RumRunner
Dot/Hap I don't have the citation because I am not going to dig through my divorce papers - heck I don't even know if I could find them. However in CA a divorce requires mediation. Court mediation is a 20 minute perfunctory process. On the advice of both attorneys we opted for private mediate... provided by a licensed psychologist who specializes in divorces. Indeed I remember signing a "release" about being required by law to report if a client showed danger to themselves or others - then went on to list a few things - suicide - assault - I can't remember them all - but I do remember the release.
Also in FL - where my BIL is a practicing psychiatrist - the same rules apply. In fact in FL if a person is admitted to a hospital for things like self-inflicted wounds, even a drug overdose, a psychiatric evaluation is required and the same "rules" apply.
Now - given that since I did not give any citations - in all honesty it is hearsay from me.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks my bottle of Rum!
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