Why did vp commit suicide?

[waterbuffalo]

Has anyone else every wondered about this? I'm sure many of us have mulled over this question a time or two.

Sure sounded like suicide to me the way cg presented his account in POP.

Why didn't victor have the will to live? He'd built a worldwide ministry and had passed on the baton to his most faithful student. Most people would have been looking forward to their sunset years to either write more books, mentor young Christians one-on-one, or just spend some time with their wife and family.

It looked like he had it all.

So, why did he intentionally check out during the years when he should have been enjoying the fruit of his labor? Was it because some women were beginning to talk? Were there other reasons?

[Watered Garden]

WB,

I am not sure what you mean by suicide. I never really read the POP paper, but I understand that CG stated that VPW had lost the will or believing or whatever to live.

I am aware that he had a very grim diagnosis of a long, slow, painful death from metastatic malignant melanoma. That alone would make some folks wish for hospice care and to go quietly.

WG

[George Aar]

WHY?

Probably for the same reason that David Copperfield doesn't fly through the air when he goes out for groceries, or make the Statue of Liberty disappear and hold it for ransom...

[waysider]

I don't really understand the question.

The man had a horrible disease and it killed him.

People in that situation frequently lose all desire to continue.

I wouldn't equate that with suicide.

[bowtwi]

I think I get the question.

Considering Wierwille's "believing equals receiving" theory, when he died it was basically explained that he quit believing to live and that's when and why he died.

So the question seems to me, worded just a little differently, why didn't he believe for healing and keep living?

The answer seems to me that he really didn't believe what he taught or else maybe what he taught wasn't true, so when he developed cancer, it spread until it killed him, which is what cancer does.

Unless, of course, that devil spirit of cancer was a higher rank than any of the devil spirits he already had in him up til then, to use his own explanations...

[waysider]

Ok, I Think I see where you are going with this.

Three major problems with this scenario, though.

1. You would first have to accept "believing" as a viable concept.

2. You would have to assume that wierwille was some sort of MOG, capable of garnering favors from THE higher power through use of said "law" of believing.

3. You would have to ignore the possibility that the POP paper was a fabricated piece of fiction designed to facilitate a coup d' etat.

-----------OR----------------------

He was really just a run-of-the mill con man who happened to develop a horrible disease and die.

Not a hard choice for me.

[waterbuffalo]

Well, ok, I thought I added 2+2 and got 4. But, maybe not.

Didn't cg say in pop that vp refused to eat and lost the will to live?

I know some people do stop eating shortly before they die and that's a sign that they will die soon sometimes.

But, in pop, it was written so it sounded like he could have gone on if only the bot had done what he'd told them, but they didn't heed his admonition, so he just decided to check out because the ministry wasn't being run right, yadayadayada...

It was very much saying, I thought, that things were so screwed up the way the ministry was being run and that's why he decided to die.

I remember thinking how it didn't sound right at the time and still don't believe that was the real reason he lost the will to live.

"OK. I'll show you. I'll just die." Sounds cowardly at best....

[waterbuffalo]

Ok, I Think I see where you are going with this.

Three major problems with this scenario, though.

1. You would first have to accept "believing" as a viable concept.

2. You would have to assume that wierwille was some sort of MOG, capable of garnering favors from THE higher power through use of said "law" of believing.

3. You would have to ignore the possibility that the POP paper was a fabricated piece of fiction designed to facilitate a coup d' etat.

-----------OR----------------------

He was really just a run-of-the mill con man who happened to develop a horrible disease and die.

Not a hard choice for me.

Ok. So, it was not his choice at all. He had no control over the disease, right?

So why did CG put the spin on it to try and make everyone think vp was in control right until the last second that he died?

Edited August 9, 2008 by waterbuffalo

[frank123lol]

Howard Alle@ stated that,we the believers killed vic,we were his murders,how,why we simply quit believing

for him,that susked the life out of him.Did not find out till years later,that ole vic had cancer.

Anybody who smokes heavily,a whole lifetime,is commiting suicide,cause it will surely kill you.

[excathedra]

i know we killed him lol

doesn't every man of god turn his face to the wall of a bus and go on into the wild blue yonder ?

[Watered Garden]

I have a relative under hospice care and one of the nurses told the family that one way you can tell when the end is near is when the person will not or cannot eat.

I kind of doubt if CG knew that; he seems to have sort of had tunnel vision that only let him see what he wanted to see.

With the cancer having spread to his liver and possibly to his brain (I was told by someone and then think I also read it here a few years back that he had had a stroke post eye removal), it would be no wonder if he decided to just let himself die. Comfort measures are all that is available to someone in his condition.

As far as "why didn't he just believe for perfect health?" well, gee whiz that's a good question. If in fact what he taught was true, well, why didn't he? I don't know. Neither does anyone else except the Veepster, and he's ever so dead.

WG

[waysider]

I'm fairly certain he had a stroke.

When he taught at an Ohio limb meeting in about 1980, it was apparent that something was amiss.

His gait was unsteady and he searched for words that eluded him.

My first impression was that he had a stroke.

It was a packed auditorium so I'm sure someone else must remember.

[Rocky]

Look... suicide is not passive. It's a conscious act.

Wierwille, regardless of his goofy way of explaining life, the world and God, died as a direct result of cancer.

Anyone who has had someone close to them die as a result of sickness or injury that sapped all strength from them can grasp this... and can easily understand the ideas of someone losing the will to live and/or ceasing to take in physical nourishment.

Are we trying to make a point about his religion or does anyone actually believe wierwille committed suicide?

[Zshot]

Rocky is exactly right.

Alot of people ran vpw's death through there various spin cycles for there own intentions.

[rascal]

Waysider, not doubting you at all, but could the same symptoms be explained by the copious amount of drinking people have reported?

[rascal]

As far as vp committing suicide?? According to Geer he certainly did, but then it was all the bot`s fault for not asking him the right question.

He also said that it was everybody`s fault for not believing and praying for vp...problem is...nobody told the rest of the believers that he was dying.

It appears to me that Geere was an opportunistic creep who twisted vp`s death to accomplish his own nefarious plans.

Edited August 10, 2008 by rascal

[doojable]

In order to substantiate a "suicide" in even the broadest terms, one would have to believe that vp actually had it in his power to believe to be healed.

There is a link to POP on the front page under "Miscellaneous Documents" on the lower left of the page. I tried to find the pertinent quote - but I liken reading that paper to swimming in vomit.

Edited August 10, 2008 by doojable

[cheranne]

swimming in vomits.like as a dog returning to there own vomit (vp)he's lucky he wasn't shot

by someones husband or father!

[Tzaia]

The reality is that during the time the Lord tarries, we will all experience death. Two people have not experienced death as we know it.

VPW had the mistaken notion that he could believe himself past the consequences of risky behavior. That is what I believe is the wrong part of his believing=receiving doctrine. He ignored the rule that believing=receiving doesn't defy the natural laws, particularly the one of cause and effect. I believe that anyone who overtly engages in risky behavior (cause and effect) that is known to cause one to sicken and die is guilty of committing suicide - slow as it may be. I call it slow suicide. It just doesn't have the impact of taking a gun to the head, swallowing a bunch of pills, slitting one's throat, or suffocating one's self, but one is nonetheless assisting in one's own death.

[waysider]

Waysider, not doubting you at all, but could the same symptoms be explained by the copious amount of drinking people have reported?

Rascal

I understand your point.

But, no, this was more of what would typically be associated with aphasia, which is a result of "stroke".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphasia

Several other people in the group I was with had the same impression.

Sorry, I don't recall the exact year but it was a very large limb meeting with hundreds of people in attendance.

[Sunesis]

When I was on staff at HQ and he came back with his eye having been removed, and greeted us at lunch, it was also very obvious he'd had a stroke. One side of his face was frozen and that side of his mouth couldn't smile. He kind of waved and sat down, didn't say much.

I remarked to someone at my table, he's also had a stroke, and they reproved me. Since most of us were young, they wouldn't know what a stroke victim looked like. That's why no one realized he'd had one. He recovered over time.

[bfh]

I'm fairly certain he had a stroke.

When he taught at an Ohio limb meeting in about 1980, it was apparent that something was amiss.

His gait was unsteady and he searched for words that eluded him.

My first impression was that he had a stroke.

It was a packed auditorium so I'm sure someone else must remember.

VPW did have a stroke according to the POP paper. I'm not sure of the timing because CG doesn't give any dates, of course.

Perhaps someone who remembers these events could put a date to it.

The following are from POP (p 2):

Also, at Dr. Wierwille's recommendation, we changed the Ministry year for Europe from one

that paralleled the year in the U.S.A. to one that began and ended at the New Year period.

After we had moved to England it became quite apparent that Robert and Barbara Wilkinson were

of such a mind that they were not going to actively help, at least not with goodwill. This all came about

while I was on an itinerary, and in fact it was during that itinerary that Dr. Wierwille first had a stroke...

Picking back up, I called in to talk to Doctor about Robert and the situation that was developing and could not get through to him.

I was only told that he was gone and could not be reached. When I tried to call back again he still was not there,

so I went through to Howard.

Howard told me that he had had a stroke and that he was not well.

I got his permission to come on the next available flight and went to see Dr. Wierwille.

I found him physically weak but mentally sharp. I had been told not to talk to him about things of the Ministry,

but that was all he wanted to talk about. I remember when I told him about Robert that he got tears in his eyes

and said, "How could I have been so wrong?"

As a result of meetings that were held during that visit (but which did not include Dr. Wierwille) two notable changes were made.

The first was that Vince Finnegan would replace Bo Reahard as the head of International Outreach and the second was

that I would become the Country coordinator for the United Kingdom, replacing Robert Wilkinson.

And yes, reading POP is like swimming in vomit, as Dooj so aptly put it. It certainly makes me feel slimy. It's a good thing I can quickly scan written information.

[Mike]

Dr. Wierwille had two minor strokes that I am aware of, and then quickly and fully recovered from the symptoms each time. The brain is remarkably resilient organ for those who are in the lifelong habit of using it to it's fullest.

I know the date of one stroke was the late fall of 1982, when I was a WOW. I remember discussing the issue with my WOW brother, Tracy K. We could hear Dr sometimes stretching out the consonant "s" on SNS tapes at that time, and it was obvious he was hurting in some way. The actual symptom was pretty subtle, though. Of all his tapes that were released, and that are known today, this is the only stroke evidence that was manifested.

He recorded a teaching on July, 25, 1983 and titled it "No Condemnation" in which he addressed the issue of Advanced Class grads and students of large amounts of Biblical teaching getting hit physically hard, to the point of requiring hospitalization. This teaching has given me much relief when I found myself needing medical services and such. It's also helped me to not condemn (think down about) others who are in need of medical care. That teaching was released as the Tape of the Month for July 1983.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Mike

[Linda Z]

It's quite possible he experienced facial nerve injury during the surgery to remove his eye. Such an injury is common and causes facial paralysis, which could resemble that caused by a stroke.

I have a coworker who had a cancer removed near (below) his eye a couple years ago. That side of his face was paralyzed for a few months, and his speech was slightly slurred.

[waysider]

First, please allow me to apologize for taking this discussion off track into a discussion of what is and isn't stroke related.

There was a casual comment made regarding a stroke and I became distracted and veered off topic.

My personal belief is that the man developed a horrendous disease I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

His death was a result of this disease, as evidenced by his death certificate. (Which can be found on the front page.)

Likewise, his will (or lack of) to live was an effect that is common to such situations.

Attributing his death to anything theological or esoteric is, in my opinion, erroneous.

I hope that clarifies my opinion.