This should be interesting

[now I see]

There are sooo many bootleg copies of PFAL foundational, intermediate and advanced classes floating around on audio and video tape, and DVD, all for just the asking, totally free, there is no need to purchase $5,000.00 worth of the original.

Receiving stolen property is a felony though, the burden of proof would be on both parties to prove their case, kind of hard to do for TWI since they were gifted and handen out so readily, and then forgotten about.

[WhiteDove]

When PFAL was handed to a TC for the purpose of running a class no documents were ever signed. No 'agreement' was negotiated. You were given the class to run it. Nothing else was considered.

The only 'briefing' that I ever got when doing PFAL classes for TWI, was that sometimes I would have to get a segment from another TC, and when done I had to pass it off to a third TC. Because there were so many classes running at the same time. that was the only form of briefing, or conditions put on handling the class.

I don't know why you would have not have been given an instructors guide with the tapes Galen ,but somewhere there was one. Session by session segment by segment it was mapped out. I'm looking at one as I speak.

[WhiteDove]

Oh yeah Galen, now that you mention it, sets did get shuffled that way, although mostly it was one set being shared by two or more classes I think in my experience. I also agree nothing was ever signed by me, (in my areas), and I did not "check them out" with library system cards or any negotiation.

Darn, no bids yet on it?

oooh, there is a Tower of Power album listed, with Skip Mesquite and Dave Garibaldi!

Funny Hap I just recently found a CD of Back to Oakland/Tower of Power at the used CD store. Even odder the young clerk actualy knew who they were and was surprised that someone else did. He said that was the only one he had ever seen come through the store.

[socks]

Now I see why lawyers make so much money....

WATCH THIS now, to see what may be on eBay3000, 91 years from now.

[potato]

When PFAL was handed to a TC for the purpose of running a class no documents were ever signed. No 'agreement' was negotiated. You were given the class to run it. Nothing else was considered.

The only 'briefing' that I ever got when doing PFAL classes for TWI, was that sometimes I would have to get a segment from another TC, and when done I had to pass it off to a third TC. Because there were so many classes running at the same time. that was the only form of briefing, or conditions put on handling the class.

I agree, ordinarily the class (film or audio) set were given for a specific duration. (to be returned at the end of the class). I ran enough of those things to remember that, although I don't recall signing anything to that effect, I think it was a page in the instructor's manual maybe????). I vaguely recall it was in some written format. I always dutifully returned the materials.

The set I was speaking of was in another category, and was not part of the normal PFAL system. What I am saying is that they were not ALWAYS given for a specific duration. This set was simply given for my friend's use, by the President and Founder

without the signed contract, if someone ends up with copies of the tapes for whatever reason, like they're kicked out of twi or left of their own volition before returning them, they're free to sell or give them away or burn them if they like. it doesn't matter if there were written instructions included, as courts have already determined that shrink-wrapped EULAs aren't binding.

[waysider]

I want those tapes and I mean business, Mister!

[Galen]

I don't know why you would have not have been given an instructors guide with the tapes Galen ,but somewhere there was one. Session by session segment by segment it was mapped out. I'm looking at one as I speak.

Now that you do mention it, yes I do recall there being a guide on 'How to". It was most often found in the branch home, in the book store [if a branch had a bookstore]. Otherwise at limb.

What I remember was a check list of things to do in preparation for the class:

" Clean, have staff meet early, pray, straighten chairs, consider students' needs, clean again, provide parking, welcome students, blah, blah "

And the pages that had the phrases and times for the flip-charts.

Allow me to re-phrase, I do not recall a legal contract nor explanation of who the class had to be given back to. There was a 'copyright' statement, like every book has in it.

I certainly never signed anything.

And I did not always get the class guide.

I recall a few times, doing the flipcharts without the list of phrases and times. Often getting the class was such a massive fight that to go back and get the binder too was out of the question. There was likely an inexperienced someone somewhere whose 'need' for it was greater.

Looking back, I guess it would make sense. When multiple classes are running, and one class is being done by someone without experience and confidence, they would likely latch onto the class guide with teeth and claws. So if the class is being spread out over multiple Twigs, who gets the guide? Who ever says they need it the most.

Once the shift to video was done. It all became easier.

[HAPe4me]

video was easier, except for having to round up a Beta machine!

[Twinky]

For what it's worth to this discussion, the seller (if male) is Spouse Corps 10.

Unless it's his wife who is the seller, and they just use the one E-bay name for items either of them sells.

Would the tapes have been "given" to him as Spouse Corps (only SC?)

Or would they have been given to him (not his wife) because he was the "head of the family"?

Or were they "given" to her (on what basis?) and she has "given" them to him?

I really don't care.

I am rather concerned about anyone who would pay $5000 for this stuff.

If they have that much cash to dispose of - they could give it to some charity where it would be of real value. Or they could just put their greenbacks in a paper bag and toss it out with the trash.

[eagle709]

I want those tapes and I mean business, Mister!

It was worth sorting through all this just to sse the picture. Personally I've got a set of 1974 PFAL books I'll sell for 4500.00

Eagle

[WhiteDove]

without the signed contract, if someone ends up with copies of the tapes for whatever reason, like they're kicked out of twi or left of their own volition before returning them, they're free to sell or give them away or burn them if they like. it doesn't matter if there were written instructions included, as courts have already determined that shrink-wrapped EULAs aren't binding.

Assuming we were discussing shrink wrapped EULA's which we were not. We were discussing a class planning form which was used for requesting the use of a set of tapes for a specified time period , which had rules of use that accompanied them.

[leafytwiglet]

Well It was a long time ago but I remember there being some paper in there about them belonging to TWI and that we had to return them. Of course we were WOW's so maybe we were untrustworthy LOL. Perhaps just our L/C put it in there.

It was on blue paper. Not that it matters.

Edited for spelling and such

Edited March 16, 2009 by leafytwiglet

[oldiesman]

I just got off the phone with HQ, the Way of the USA (trunk office)... they said that TWI still has the copyright on PFAL both audio & video, so the item the guy is selling is illegal. They asked me for the ebay #, thanked me and said they would take care of it.

[waysider]

I just got off the phone with HQ, the Way of the USA (trunk office)... they said that TWI still has the copyright on PFAL both audio & video, so the item the guy is selling is illegal. They asked me for the ebay #, thanked me and said they would take care of it.

COOL!

One less vial of poison out on the street.

:lol:

[potato]

Assuming we were discussing shrink wrapped EULA's which we were not. We were discussing a class planning form which was used for requesting the use of a set of tapes for a specified time period , which had rules of use that accompanied them.

try to keep up here, WD.

if the person receiving the tapes didn't sign an agreement, then they are not bound by twi's claim of ownership. that's the point of the shrink-wrapped EULA cases, that a person is not bound by rules accompanying media unless they have actively agreed to them, either with a click box that prevents them from proceeding without agreeing, or with a real live contract with their signature. and the case that established first sale doctrine established that once someone has a legally made copy of something in their possession, the copyright holder cannot control redistribution.

if twi has a signed contract or "agreement" as you put it, then they can claim the tapes with a warrant if the person who signed the agreement currently holds them. if not, then they'll find themselves in a case like vernor v. autodesk.

I just got off the phone with HQ, the Way of the USA (trunk office)... they said that TWI still has the copyright on PFAL both audio & video, so the item the guy is selling is illegal. They asked me for the ebay #, thanked me and said they would take care of it.

OM, twi might still hold the copyright, but that doesn't mean they own the copies. see above. without a written contract, they have no claim.

[Bolshevik]

I just got off the phone with HQ, the Way of the USA (trunk office)... they said that TWI still has the copyright on PFAL both audio & video, so the item the guy is selling is illegal. They asked me for the ebay #, thanked me and said they would take care of it.

"God Bless you, The Way International, this is __________. Can I help you?"

Try to interrupt them. It's a spiritual duty to finish their line.

[oldiesman]

Potato, you may be technically correct, but the person I spoke to at hq said that copies cannot be sold legally. All copies are essentially illegals, bootlegs. Unless of course, twi gives its permission to this guy. I would call the guy up and ask, but golly, I already called the source. Maybe you can call the guy and ask for his written contract from TWI? :)

[rascal]

What a ratty thing to do, we used to have names for kids that tattled like that in school. How creepy is it to call twi and set their lawyers on somebody?

By God, they owe all of us a hell of a lot more than 5000 dollars as far as I am concerned :(

Edited March 16, 2009 by rascal

[potato]

Potato, you may be technically correct, but the person I spoke to at hq said that copies cannot be sold legally. All copies are essentially illegals, bootlegs. Unless of course, twi gives its permission to this guy. I would call the guy up and ask, but golly, I already called the source. Maybe you can call the guy and ask for his written contract from TWI? :)

yeah, I'd trust some jerkoff at twi before I'd trust a copyright lawyer! NOT.

copies are not bootlegs if twi made them. bootlegging is the making of illegal copies. the eBay auction sure looks like the real deal to me. eBay already got its butt handed to it for taking down auctions for legally owned property based on claims of license infringement, so I doubt it will get involved in this dispute without an order from a judge.

[geisha779]

What a ratty thing to do, we used to have names for kids that tattled like that in school. How creepy is it to call twi and set their lawyers on somebody?

By God, they owe all of us a hell of a lot more than 5000 dollars as far as I am concerned :(

"Nark" springs to mind.

I hope they didn't need that five grand for little Joey's kidney transplant or to save their home from foreclosure.

As long as TWI can take it from here. . . . sheeesh.

Ebay will just pull the listing if TWI complains. Maybe they can use Craig's List next time.

[potato]

btw this is a scream "Potato, you may be technically correct, but the person I spoke to at hq said that copies cannot be sold legally."

if I'm technically correct, I'm technically correct. it doesn't matter what the person at hq said unless they have a signed contract to back it up. throwing the word "but" in there makes it look like people at hq have some special knowledge of how first sale doctrine ceases to exist for them. copies can be legally sold provided they are legally made copies and there is no contract preventing them from being sold.

[oldiesman]

copies are not bootlegs if twi made them.

Yes, but because twi owns the copyright, copies are essentially bootlegs in the sense that people cannot legally sell them, unless they have permission from the one with the copyright, to sell.

Therefore, in order for this guy to legally sell a bona fide copy of PFAL on ebay, he has to have written permission from twi.

Do you agree or disagree with that?

[potato]

Yes, but because twi owns the copyright, copies are essentially bootlegs in the sense that people cannot legally sell them, unless they have permission from the one with the copyright, to sell.

Therefore, in order for this guy to legally sell a bona fide copy of PFAL on ebay, he has to have written permission from twi.

Do you agree or disagree with that?

hell no. your reasoning is based on ignorance of copyright law and about what copyright is. go read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

pay attention to the Overview, that should sufficiently explain it.

[oldiesman]

I get what they are saying, but it seems they are referring to items that were once legally sold and became someone else's property. Here, we are talking about PFAL, an item that always was owned by twi. They never sold it to anyone, as far as we know. Therefore, it is still their property.

[oldiesman]

The overview says that it does not include renting or leasing. Isn't that essentially what twi did with PFAL, rented or leased it out? It always belonged to them however. Unless they (the twi hq or trustees) sold or distributed a particular copy to someone, then that would give someone the right to re-sell or re-distribute under our system.

Edited March 16, 2009 by oldiesman