Let me get this straight? The people who were tricked are culpable for the abuse of others? The one's who unknowingly supported a system which allowed for abuse?
That would mean . . . that the victims. . . were responsible for their own abuse as they too were supporting the whole?
And. . . even though people were seeking good looking for God. . . they were not good people because they got tricked?
No, that might make them stupid people, but even then I have my doubts.
I have a differing take on who is responsible for the abuse. . . it is the one's who actually did it.
Let me get this straight? The people who were tricked are culpable for the abuse of others? The one's who unknowingly supported a system which allowed for abuse?
Yeah - completely illogical. This is the same argument as trying to make all Jews equally responsible for the death of Jesus Christ. No, it's the d@mn leaders. The Sanhedrim voted for it, with a couple of noted exceptions.
I have a differing take on who is responsible for the abuse. . . it is the one's who actually did it.
Let them own it. . . they did it.
I guess we could say that '86-'88 is a cutoff year? Before then, everyone was innocent children, not responsible for anything. After that, the difference between lcm, leadership, and follower is work-load and how loud you can yell? Essentially, everyone was/is the same.
Maybe you can explain what you mean to me in simpler terms. Your first two sentences seem in stark contradiction to the last two. Comments and questions interspersed in blue. Just trying to figure out what your really mean here Geisha
Let me get this straight? The people who were tricked are culpable for the abuse of others? The one's who unknowingly supported a system which allowed for abuse?
That would mean . . . that the victims. . . were responsible for their own abuse as they too were supporting the whole?
Seems like we heard that a lot from Nazi soldiers - they were "just following orders" - they were in an abusive system that made sure that they abused others - hence they took no responsibility. That excuse never flew during the Nuremberg trials. Were all Germans tried under the Nuremberg courts? Obviously not. But those who took part in the abuse (and massacre) were tried for their actions not their excuses. BTW please do not ply me with the difference in degree between the Nazi horrors and the paltry minor league (and way overblown by victimites) TWI con job. The logic still applies.
And. . . even though people were seeking good looking for God. . . they were not good people because they got tricked?
No, that might make them stupid people, but even then I have my doubts.
I have a differing take on who is responsible for the abuse. . . it is the one's who actually did it.
OK - seems to me then that those who were tricked and abused others are indeed culpable based on the above sentence. Which is it Geisha? - not trying to corner you here - just trying to figure out what exactly you are trying to say
They'll claim they've seen all (or most) vpw's teachings from da word work. They see it clearly from the word. They'll "swear and stomp their foot" over it.
having been sexually abused as a child, having serious boundary and authority issues, and having gone to vpw for counseling, i find it really distrubing, disgusting, gross and immoral -- and spiritually lol WRONG that he would try to convince me why i should f him
am i getting through ?
and i've been trying to write about this for YEARS but the shame is too great
Excie, that one line is so repulsive to me, I don't see how anyone can defend this organization or it's history. Â Some people decry this web board and say we are malcontents, I say, why don't they get a conscience? Â
This is what really disgusts me about perserving twi, they are like what the bible calls whited sepulchres. Â I don't recall anything ever written in the bible about perserving those.
When I saw "I'll show you what's good about being alive," I assumed it was a positive affirmation of your life NOW, not a reminder of a past abuse. God knows I'm not telling you to forget anything, but I really hope that you DO show others what's good about being alive. And that's something that VPW just can't do!
Yeah Geisha, I feel like we were the unwitting pawns, the camoflage that hid the enemy`s deadly snare....no matter how great our intentions were.
If we had not been out witnessing and running classes, promising any answer offering the means to obtain anything desired, to lure in unsuspecting people....sending in the money that paid for the food these people ate, the roofs over their heads, the gas that ran the bus that we bought that bought the drinks and drugs used to ensure sexual cooperation....they never ever could have wrought the havoc in peoples lives.
If wierwille or martindale had jumped out and said BOO! I am a lying plagerizing sexual predator that will require 15 percent of your income for the rest of your life, decide where and who you will live with, will require you to abort your untimely children, require your daughters and wives to submit unquestioningly to sexual servitude...I will use you until every last ounce of profit is squeezed from you, and then crush and toss you aside like so much garbage....why then we would have fled.
As it was what people saw was OUR integrity, OUR honor, OUR striving to serve God...We are the disguise that the evil hid behind...yeah, I do feel a responsibility to the innocents wounded.
I, too, understand the different takes on this issue but can't agree or hold myself accountable, culpable or responsible for the shi+ that Wierwille, Martindale or anyone else did.
It's understood that some take accountability for what those men and others did, I just don't and will not. Any more than I hold them responsible for my husbands death at the feet of their teachings that he chose to believe and act on. I spent years considering otherwise and making them somehow culpable for his loss in our lives, the years my girls have been without their father, the years of lack and a shi+load of other legal fancy words. If what is suggested is true, then I would be just as accountable as my husbands "leadership". In fact, he made choices for his life that were unwise and it cost him his life.
No one needs to pay for that any more than my daughters already have.
We all have differing backgrounds, dynamics and reasons why we were even in the mess in the first place; each is as important and vital as any of the others.
But responsible, culpable, accountable? No, not any more than if I follow the standard operating procedure of a company I work for.
Perhaps an internet exorcism is in order - that'll clean out those nasty old goons...when done we can all lay avatars on someone...then we can resurrect Marlin Brando and he can repeat his famous line from "Apocalypse Now"...The horror...the horror!!!
i do not hold everybody ever involved in the way responsible for the horrors perpetrated. i could because every little penny sent to hq was assisting the perpetrators, and every other action to promote the way was in the end the thing that kept the horrors happening. but i would feel stupid to hold everybody ever involved responsible. as i've said more than once or twice it is the looking back and acknowledging how everybody was used to perpetrate and perpetuate the abusive system.
it is an insult to me when somebody tries to convince me that since they didn't know about and didn't witness and didn't do anything abusive then their memories should remain untainted by the reality of what they were helping to perpetrate regardless of their level or lack of involvement. it's like when my mother says to me that she didn't see or know about so and so do anything to me so she has a right to hold good memories of them. but mom he raped me!
"Yea verily, you shall clean out the filthy vermin and walk into the land of Zion. You shall be clean. You shall live with the holy spiders... forever. I call you unto holiness. The good times will hold you no more"*
*The tongue of angels - They can type too, you know!
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Tzaia
There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar
Linda Z
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner. Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to und
potato
I'm glad vpw is dead.
geisha779
Let me get this straight? The people who were tricked are culpable for the abuse of others? The one's who unknowingly supported a system which allowed for abuse?
That would mean . . . that the victims. . . were responsible for their own abuse as they too were supporting the whole?
And. . . even though people were seeking good looking for God. . . they were not good people because they got tricked?
No, that might make them stupid people, but even then I have my doubts.
I have a differing take on who is responsible for the abuse. . . it is the one's who actually did it.
Let them own it. . . they did it.
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Bolshevik
which is who? where they tricked or tempted? unknowing or averted their eyes? eh.
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chockfull
Yeah - completely illogical. This is the same argument as trying to make all Jews equally responsible for the death of Jesus Christ. No, it's the d@mn leaders. The Sanhedrim voted for it, with a couple of noted exceptions.
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Bolshevik
the leaders were tricked by the evil spurt world, and the leaders before them.
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Bolshevik
I guess we could say that '86-'88 is a cutoff year? Before then, everyone was innocent children, not responsible for anything. After that, the difference between lcm, leadership, and follower is work-load and how loud you can yell? Essentially, everyone was/is the same.
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Ham
kinda convenient wouldn't you think?
But don't dare touch their "righteousness".. that comes from the other invisible hand..
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RumRunner
Maybe you can explain what you mean to me in simpler terms. Your first two sentences seem in stark contradiction to the last two. Comments and questions interspersed in blue. Just trying to figure out what your really mean here Geisha
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Bolshevik
There the current crew, ages 14-24.
They'll claim they've seen all (or most) vpw's teachings from da word work. They see it clearly from the word. They'll "swear and stomp their foot" over it.
they're having a good time.
is twi no longer an "abusive system"?
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excathedra
i should go back and read more
thank you for the supportive comments i love you for it
i'm just saying
oh what am i saying? i'll get back to you after i put the clothes in the dryer
love lol
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excathedra
okay i'm back
i'm going to try this again
having been sexually abused as a child, having serious boundary and authority issues, and having gone to vpw for counseling, i find it really distrubing, disgusting, gross and immoral -- and spiritually lol WRONG that he would try to convince me why i should f him
am i getting through ?
and i've been trying to write about this for YEARS but the shame is too great
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excathedra
i'm such a music expressionist :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBFSMna9KPY...185&index=0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLse7g_Nfuo
ok, done with feeling sorry for myself
thank you for indulging me
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Bolshevik
well, I can remember after that and it seemed everyone everywhere said and did the same things is all.
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excathedra
i understand and i love you or feel for you
i got in the way because i wanted the emptiness to be filled
my bad
over on the left there is a little statement under my avatar
it's what wierwille said to kris when he oh you know
"i'll show you what's good about being alive"
i want to puke for a million years
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now I see
"i'll show you what's good about being alive"
Excie, that one line is so repulsive to me, I don't see how anyone can defend this organization or it's history. Â Some people decry this web board and say we are malcontents, I say, why don't they get a conscience? Â
This is what really disgusts me about perserving twi, they are like what the bible calls whited sepulchres. Â I don't recall anything ever written in the bible about perserving those.
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excathedra
awww thanks for responding now i see
it should really say something like, "i'll show you what it feels like to be dead inside" or you know something like that....
love, me
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excathedra
i want to share something that is really disturbing but i don't know
a lovely person asked me to prove i had been on the big bus
he asked me if wierwille was (i can't say it)
i said i have no idea, i have no recollection
i had a floating ceiling type experience looking down
and then i saw these horribly dead eyes looking into mine
i CAN remember the next "morning" (or however long a bus ride takes) i was on a side cot type thingy
and he was shoving something very personal from his body in my face and i played dead
and i thank god he went away
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GeorgeStGeorge
Interesting, Excie.
When I saw "I'll show you what's good about being alive," I assumed it was a positive affirmation of your life NOW, not a reminder of a past abuse. God knows I'm not telling you to forget anything, but I really hope that you DO show others what's good about being alive. And that's something that VPW just can't do!
George
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excathedra
thanks so much signing off much love
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rascal
Yeah Geisha, I feel like we were the unwitting pawns, the camoflage that hid the enemy`s deadly snare....no matter how great our intentions were.
If we had not been out witnessing and running classes, promising any answer offering the means to obtain anything desired, to lure in unsuspecting people....sending in the money that paid for the food these people ate, the roofs over their heads, the gas that ran the bus that we bought that bought the drinks and drugs used to ensure sexual cooperation....they never ever could have wrought the havoc in peoples lives.
If wierwille or martindale had jumped out and said BOO! I am a lying plagerizing sexual predator that will require 15 percent of your income for the rest of your life, decide where and who you will live with, will require you to abort your untimely children, require your daughters and wives to submit unquestioningly to sexual servitude...I will use you until every last ounce of profit is squeezed from you, and then crush and toss you aside like so much garbage....why then we would have fled.
As it was what people saw was OUR integrity, OUR honor, OUR striving to serve God...We are the disguise that the evil hid behind...yeah, I do feel a responsibility to the innocents wounded.
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Shellon
I, too, understand the different takes on this issue but can't agree or hold myself accountable, culpable or responsible for the shi+ that Wierwille, Martindale or anyone else did.
It's understood that some take accountability for what those men and others did, I just don't and will not. Any more than I hold them responsible for my husbands death at the feet of their teachings that he chose to believe and act on. I spent years considering otherwise and making them somehow culpable for his loss in our lives, the years my girls have been without their father, the years of lack and a shi+load of other legal fancy words. If what is suggested is true, then I would be just as accountable as my husbands "leadership". In fact, he made choices for his life that were unwise and it cost him his life.
No one needs to pay for that any more than my daughters already have.
We all have differing backgrounds, dynamics and reasons why we were even in the mess in the first place; each is as important and vital as any of the others.
But responsible, culpable, accountable? No, not any more than if I follow the standard operating procedure of a company I work for.
(edited cuz I can't spell)
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RumRunner
Perhaps an internet exorcism is in order - that'll clean out those nasty old goons...when done we can all lay avatars on someone...then we can resurrect Marlin Brando and he can repeat his famous line from "Apocalypse Now"...The horror...the horror!!!
Edited by RumRunnerLink to comment
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brainfixed
i do not hold everybody ever involved in the way responsible for the horrors perpetrated. i could because every little penny sent to hq was assisting the perpetrators, and every other action to promote the way was in the end the thing that kept the horrors happening. but i would feel stupid to hold everybody ever involved responsible. as i've said more than once or twice it is the looking back and acknowledging how everybody was used to perpetrate and perpetuate the abusive system.
it is an insult to me when somebody tries to convince me that since they didn't know about and didn't witness and didn't do anything abusive then their memories should remain untainted by the reality of what they were helping to perpetrate regardless of their level or lack of involvement. it's like when my mother says to me that she didn't see or know about so and so do anything to me so she has a right to hold good memories of them. but mom he raped me!
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doojable
Oh! I need to type in tongues and prophecy spiders:
"wouer boons vokdn worns ouonf tongogotnt wrhne sosonsnsnsns"*
"Yea verily, you shall clean out the filthy vermin and walk into the land of Zion. You shall be clean. You shall live with the holy spiders... forever. I call you unto holiness. The good times will hold you no more"*
*The tongue of angels - They can type too, you know!
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brainfixed
and anybody in the way more than few months abused somebody somewhere somehow in some way. it was institutionalized that abusiveness was "from god".
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