Personally it seems butt ugly obvious to me that this supposedly bad environment here at the GSC is much healthier than these control-freak cowards who can't figure out how to work on figuring out their truth while treating folks with vastly different perspectives with a little respect.
It would be most interesting to here exactly which questions inflamed Wierwille or troubled CES if anyone knows. For whatever it is worth I feel certain that these doubtlessly logical and pointed questions actually were good questions but ended up being thought of as dangerous and devilish.
They thought they taught truth but could not even handle a challenging question or a challenging personality perhaps. They did not exactly live up to the examples of Solomon, Jesus Christ, Paul or others in the bible, did they? Dare I say their example in a gramatically correct sense was even anti-Christ? It sure looks opposite or opposing to me.
(added in editing)
Biblical examples of questions and answers that I can recall seem to have good and wise answers to hard questions on a public level. And no matter what any of us happen to believe these days I would hope that even those among us who do not hang our hats on the scriptures would have appreciated it if TWI or CES could at least scrounge together their best attempt to have handled public discourse according to the best biblical examples.
But if anyone questions how I meant anti-Christ I can handle it here in a manner that I trust will not require a trip over to the doctrinal section to deal with. Anti as a Greek prefix simply refers to opposite or something in opposition as I can simply state it best. And in that sense the way that Wierwille handled this encounter I feel free to say without too many doctrinal questions is in opposition to how Jesus Christ handled questions.
Eventually Jesus' critics were afraid to ask him questions, he did not shut their questions down, they did out of fear. So at best TWI and CES are a bunch of wannabes in comparison. At worst...well...we may need to take that point to the doctrinal section IMO.
But I think that these wannabe turds like TWI and my former splinter group are able to handle things only behind closed doors and with evil intent directed at their harshest critics.....so much for "Love your enemies"..huh? and they can only destroy those who are timid or those who have already placed their lives in their hands as some kind of twisted and petty dungeon master might do to gamers that happen to be in their game.
I suppose it comes with the territory...If someone is claiming to speak on behalf of the Almighty, questioning them is an indication that their basic premise is being challenged...The starting point for their "logic" is that they are correct in their beliefs...their only question to you is "are you going to conform your thinking the way we tell you to?...or are you going to be a loser?"...
It doesn't surprise me that twi has shut down their Q&A sessions...it was only a facade to begin with.
Twi is a religious organization (cult) and therefore exempt from objectivity or critical thinking. I find it quite ironic that a mind control cult teaches about having a "sound mind"...
I would hardly call being delusional a form of sanity.
:46 After three days they found him [the 12 year old Jesus] in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions
:47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
TWI wanted this two ways:
(1) Jesus studied the scriptures very well and was well-taught by his parents. That's how he knew this stuff.
(2) God was teaching him directly, by revelation (although they emphasized this more in his adult life).
Gosh, can you imagine some precocious 12 year old TWI-raised kid...asking questions whilst seated at the feet of the leaders, teachers, call 'em what you will.
One learns by asking questions. But the start of "no questions" was in PFAL where it was actively discouraged - write your questions down, we'll answer them at the end of the class - but never did. It amazes me there were Q&A sessions at WIB (not when I attended, early 90s) or Corps Week.
When were the Q&A sessions closed down, pre- or post- VPW's death? Pre- or post-fog years?
When were the Q&A sessions closed down, pre- or post- VPW's death? Pre- or post-fog years?
Another opportunity missed...word in culture.
Twinky.....I remember those Q & A Sessions during 1979-1981 (as noted in my original post). In 1982, twi launched into Living Victoriously and the hoopla of the 40th Anniversary...ie wierwille's farewell and martindale's mantle. I don't remember any public questions being addressed after that.
This "window of opportunity" for publicly questioning things and addressing issues to wierwille and the trustees was like four or five times, 1979-1981 (as far as I remember). A couple of 6th corps guys came to the mic, at Corps Week, and it really irritated wierwille. Sorry, I can't remember the questions.... but I do remember the wierwille reaction.
I have vague memories of Q&A sessions but I can't remember from what/when... I took PFAL in the fall of 1981 and attended my first ROA in 1982...
I remember my first WIBP (spring 1984). At one point the trustees sat up front and took turns talking about ministry things, and it was fairly casual... bouncing around ideas as they came up (this was the one where VPW finalized the idea that the way corps would be smokeless from hence forth)... but I can't remember if they allowed Q&A or not. I do remember a very distinct difference between the focus/feeling of this conference and the WIBP conferences I attended later.
Certainly by the time POP came along (spring 1985) they didn't allow open questions... everything had to be under their control, because they didn't know what people might actually ask them.
I have vague memories of Q&A sessions but I can't remember from what/when... I took PFAL in the fall of 1981 and attended my first ROA in 1982...
I remember my first WIBP (spring 1984). At one point the trustees sat up front and took turns talking about ministry things, and it was fairly casual... bouncing around ideas as they came up (this was the one where VPW finalized the idea that the way corps would be smokeless from hence forth)... but I can't remember if they allowed Q&A or not. I do remember a very distinct difference between the focus/feeling of this conference and the WIBP conferences I attended later.
Certainly by the time POP came along (spring 1985) they didn't allow open questions... everything had to be under their control, because they didn't know what people might actually ask them.
THW
Spring 1984, vpw decided the corps would be smokeless henceforth.
Let's see, this would be after lifelong chain-smoker vpw was diagnosed with cancer,
but long before (if ever) public announcements were made that he HAD cancer.
(A lot of us heard his cause of death was "he got tired of the fight", which sounds like one way of
Most religious organizations do not give you any room to question the authorities in an open forum and everyone knows that, so they don't expect it. BUT, TWI never set itself up as a religious organization. It was supposed to be a RESEARCH and TEACHING ministry.
I have no idea what went on at a WIB conference, but I have an idea that it was more around learning how to present the correct facade in a business environment to get people to sign a green card, because by 1982 I was aware of a lack of ethics in leadership, so I can't imagine they were teaching ethics.
TWI, IMO, was actually hostile to the concept of growing a business due to the time it takes to do that. Heck it was hard enough to work full time for someone else and devote the time to TWI that they wanted and actually have a life outside of TWI (which I later understood why it was like that), much less do God's (TWI) work and build a business.
Anyway, TWI kinda opened Pandora's box by pretending it wanted to hear questions, which kind of made it hard for LCM. He was really pretty transparent from the get-go.
I have no idea what went on at a WIB conference, but I have an idea that it was more around learning how to present the correct facade in a business environment to get people to sign a green card, because by 1982 I was aware of a lack of ethics in leadership, so I can't imagine they were teaching ethics.
Actually, a few WIB's (or is that W's IB?) had a day set apart for specific businesses (Word in Arts, Word in Building, Word in Education, etc.) Those like myself (a chemist), for whom there was no specific "forum," could do Word in Ethics. I remember at least one year where I did this. It was led by Walter C and involvedferreting out keys from the Ten Commandments (yes, the Ten Commandments) which would apply to business. It was very interactive.
Actually, a few WIB's (or is that W's IB?) had a day set apart for specific businesses (Word in Arts, Word in Building, Word in Education, etc.) Those like myself (a chemist), for whom there was no specific "forum," could do Word in Ethics. I remember at least one year where I did this. It was led by Walter C and involvedferreting out keys from the Ten Commandments (yes, the Ten Commandments) which would apply to business. It was very interactive.
George
Then perhaps I stand corrected.
My experience is that many Christian business people expect me to do business with them because they say they are Christian, and accept they are ethical because they say they are Christian, not because of anything they do.
I tend to shy from those that say "oh, and I'm a Christian" or expect me to think something different 'cuz of that or 'cuz they SAY it.
In my trust issues, if someone makes a point of saying it to me, alarms go off, whether or not they should.
It's not just the Christians either. We've got a fair number of pagans around here and some of them expect to be given a free pass by other pagans just because they're pagans.
Although in the larger culture, people do expect that saying "I'm a Christian" translates as "I'm a moral, ethical person with whom you should do business".
I agree with George... in the beginning WIBP had some good sessions where people were actually able to discuss their concerns and needs (re: their businesses or occupations) and get feedback that was genuinely helpful Biblically. But of course, by the 1990's all that was gone.
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Rejoice
This is reminiscent of when CES shut down their questions and answers on their old website; no more two way discussions.
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JeffSjo
Personally it seems butt ugly obvious to me that this supposedly bad environment here at the GSC is much healthier than these control-freak cowards who can't figure out how to work on figuring out their truth while treating folks with vastly different perspectives with a little respect.
It would be most interesting to here exactly which questions inflamed Wierwille or troubled CES if anyone knows. For whatever it is worth I feel certain that these doubtlessly logical and pointed questions actually were good questions but ended up being thought of as dangerous and devilish.
They thought they taught truth but could not even handle a challenging question or a challenging personality perhaps. They did not exactly live up to the examples of Solomon, Jesus Christ, Paul or others in the bible, did they? Dare I say their example in a gramatically correct sense was even anti-Christ? It sure looks opposite or opposing to me.
(added in editing)
Biblical examples of questions and answers that I can recall seem to have good and wise answers to hard questions on a public level. And no matter what any of us happen to believe these days I would hope that even those among us who do not hang our hats on the scriptures would have appreciated it if TWI or CES could at least scrounge together their best attempt to have handled public discourse according to the best biblical examples.
But if anyone questions how I meant anti-Christ I can handle it here in a manner that I trust will not require a trip over to the doctrinal section to deal with. Anti as a Greek prefix simply refers to opposite or something in opposition as I can simply state it best. And in that sense the way that Wierwille handled this encounter I feel free to say without too many doctrinal questions is in opposition to how Jesus Christ handled questions.
Eventually Jesus' critics were afraid to ask him questions, he did not shut their questions down, they did out of fear. So at best TWI and CES are a bunch of wannabes in comparison. At worst...well...we may need to take that point to the doctrinal section IMO.
But I think that these wannabe turds like TWI and my former splinter group are able to handle things only behind closed doors and with evil intent directed at their harshest critics.....so much for "Love your enemies"..huh? and they can only destroy those who are timid or those who have already placed their lives in their hands as some kind of twisted and petty dungeon master might do to gamers that happen to be in their game.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I suppose it comes with the territory...If someone is claiming to speak on behalf of the Almighty, questioning them is an indication that their basic premise is being challenged...The starting point for their "logic" is that they are correct in their beliefs...their only question to you is "are you going to conform your thinking the way we tell you to?...or are you going to be a loser?"...
It doesn't surprise me that twi has shut down their Q&A sessions...it was only a facade to begin with.
Twi is a religious organization (cult) and therefore exempt from objectivity or critical thinking. I find it quite ironic that a mind control cult teaches about having a "sound mind"...
I would hardly call being delusional a form of sanity.
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Twinky
TWI wanted this two ways:
(1) Jesus studied the scriptures very well and was well-taught by his parents. That's how he knew this stuff.
(2) God was teaching him directly, by revelation (although they emphasized this more in his adult life).
Gosh, can you imagine some precocious 12 year old TWI-raised kid...asking questions whilst seated at the feet of the leaders, teachers, call 'em what you will.
One learns by asking questions. But the start of "no questions" was in PFAL where it was actively discouraged - write your questions down, we'll answer them at the end of the class - but never did. It amazes me there were Q&A sessions at WIB (not when I attended, early 90s) or Corps Week.
When were the Q&A sessions closed down, pre- or post- VPW's death? Pre- or post-fog years?
Another opportunity missed...word in culture.
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Tzaia
Ironically, much of the education in the Hebrew culture throughout history involves the study and questioning of scripture through the Midrash.
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skyrider
Twinky.....I remember those Q & A Sessions during 1979-1981 (as noted in my original post). In 1982, twi launched into Living Victoriously and the hoopla of the 40th Anniversary...ie wierwille's farewell and martindale's mantle. I don't remember any public questions being addressed after that.
This "window of opportunity" for publicly questioning things and addressing issues to wierwille and the trustees was like four or five times, 1979-1981 (as far as I remember). A couple of 6th corps guys came to the mic, at Corps Week, and it really irritated wierwille. Sorry, I can't remember the questions.... but I do remember the wierwille reaction.
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waysider
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TheHighWay
Twinky,
I have vague memories of Q&A sessions but I can't remember from what/when... I took PFAL in the fall of 1981 and attended my first ROA in 1982...
I remember my first WIBP (spring 1984). At one point the trustees sat up front and took turns talking about ministry things, and it was fairly casual... bouncing around ideas as they came up (this was the one where VPW finalized the idea that the way corps would be smokeless from hence forth)... but I can't remember if they allowed Q&A or not. I do remember a very distinct difference between the focus/feeling of this conference and the WIBP conferences I attended later.
Certainly by the time POP came along (spring 1985) they didn't allow open questions... everything had to be under their control, because they didn't know what people might actually ask them.
THW
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WordWolf
Spring 1984, vpw decided the corps would be smokeless henceforth.
Let's see, this would be after lifelong chain-smoker vpw was diagnosed with cancer,
but long before (if ever) public announcements were made that he HAD cancer.
(A lot of us heard his cause of death was "he got tired of the fight", which sounds like one way of
saying "natural causes.")
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Tzaia
Most religious organizations do not give you any room to question the authorities in an open forum and everyone knows that, so they don't expect it. BUT, TWI never set itself up as a religious organization. It was supposed to be a RESEARCH and TEACHING ministry.
I have no idea what went on at a WIB conference, but I have an idea that it was more around learning how to present the correct facade in a business environment to get people to sign a green card, because by 1982 I was aware of a lack of ethics in leadership, so I can't imagine they were teaching ethics.
TWI, IMO, was actually hostile to the concept of growing a business due to the time it takes to do that. Heck it was hard enough to work full time for someone else and devote the time to TWI that they wanted and actually have a life outside of TWI (which I later understood why it was like that), much less do God's (TWI) work and build a business.
Anyway, TWI kinda opened Pandora's box by pretending it wanted to hear questions, which kind of made it hard for LCM. He was really pretty transparent from the get-go.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Actually, a few WIB's (or is that W's IB?) had a day set apart for specific businesses (Word in Arts, Word in Building, Word in Education, etc.) Those like myself (a chemist), for whom there was no specific "forum," could do Word in Ethics. I remember at least one year where I did this. It was led by Walter C and involvedferreting out keys from the Ten Commandments (yes, the Ten Commandments) which would apply to business. It was very interactive.
George
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Tzaia
Then perhaps I stand corrected.
My experience is that many Christian business people expect me to do business with them because they say they are Christian, and accept they are ethical because they say they are Christian, not because of anything they do.
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Shellon
I tend to shy from those that say "oh, and I'm a Christian" or expect me to think something different 'cuz of that or 'cuz they SAY it.
In my trust issues, if someone makes a point of saying it to me, alarms go off, whether or not they should.
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Oakspear
Although in the larger culture, people do expect that saying "I'm a Christian" translates as "I'm a moral, ethical person with whom you should do business".
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TheHighWay
I agree with George... in the beginning WIBP had some good sessions where people were actually able to discuss their concerns and needs (re: their businesses or occupations) and get feedback that was genuinely helpful Biblically. But of course, by the 1990's all that was gone.
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