I know it was always mentioned that they would change if they were wrong when I first was involved in 1972 and 73. I did see times in the very early days that they did change, but not on anything major that wasn't their own work. Obviously they think they are right, so if they believe they are right they are not going to change.
Your example of John 10:10 is a case in point in how they react to information that disagrees with what they teach. Honestly, I wouldn't change my thought about that either. (not to turn this into a docternal discussion) but when I read this passage I see it as a more abundant life both in the new heaven and earth and the now, both spiritual and physical. Life in every aspect. I read your thoughts on this in another thread and it didn't convence me. But I respect you and thank you for sharing it.
They also have changed, from time to time their doctrine. The Athletes of the spirit is one they used to hold up as an example that will change their teaching based on "new knowledge." (don't get me going there though) One of the other areas they mentioned was "Are the Dead Alive Now." I have heard early teaching by VPW where he did not teach this, but based on new revelation he changed.
Of course sometimes how we show people can make a difference. At our current church I would never teach something that I knew disagreed with their understanding without sharing it with the pastor first and having his permission. If he didn't give it, we would agree to disagree in that area and focus on what we do agree on. If I taught it first, I would expect him to be angry with and would not be surprized by it at all.
It's been so long I don't remember any of the specific instances, besides the two I mentioned. Most of the time it was as a result of their research. I know they've gone back and forth a lot regarding whether the tithe should be off of your gross income or net income, or in other words, before or after taxes. Of course they were always willing to change if it was based on their "research". I do have memory where they changed something based that some plain PFAL grad had pointed out. but I don't remember what it was, and I've long ago "lost" the reel-to-reel tapes from that time period. But again, it was something minor, anything major always required that it be from their research team.
Every once in awhile, twi would announce a "correction" on some minor point...
...it was simply a pretense to "demonstrate" to all of us that they indeed were a "research" "ministry"...It was all part of the dog and pony show...in reality, all they wanted was for the money to keep rolling in.
Right Groucho! They didn't always believe in Eve's homosexual encounter....but once it was made plain to them by their fearless leader.....everybody seemed to jump on board and believe the "present truth".
I have (from a source who would know) heard that Rosie said during the filming of the new class that he new class "wouldn't have any of that Eve lesbian nonsense" in it. It doesn't, but they NEVER informed the regular old believer that the teaching was "nonsense", did they?
Right Groucho! They didn't always believe in Eve's homosexual encounter....but once it was made plain to them by their fearless leader.....everybody seemed to jump on board and believe the "present truth".
The phrase "present truth" and all the rationalization behind it is an abomination.
Since when did they ever give a rat's petunias about the individuals EXCEPT to empty our their wallets and scream at them and control the number of sheets of tp that were consumed!
The man was a demagogue. He created problems for the sole purpose of taking credit for fixing them. Here's an example. He gives rise to this "change" idea in PLAF (The Wonder Class). It's here that he tells us about how The Way changed its stance on the issue of how many days transpired between the resurrection and the ascension. Did you even know it was a "problem" before he told you it was? How do we really know that he ascribed to the first position to begin with? What purpose does it serve other than to say, "Look at me! I solved your problem." I remember hiking through the woods with a bunch of the guys from the neighborhood. when I was a kid. Invariably, if you ventured near a cliff's edge, one of the guys would quickly grab your collar, give you a slight nudge forward and then forcefully pull you back. At that point he would exclaim, "I saved your life!"
In the early days of The Way, they used to use standard collection plates like every other church. One evening, they were having a meeting at a funeral home or some similar type of facility. When the time drew near to taking up the collection, it was discovered the plates had been left behind at some other place. "Uncle Harry" (he wasn't MY uncle!) looked around and spotted some floral arrangements in cornucopias. (Or would that be cornucopii?)
Anyhow, he took the flowers out and used the horns in lieu of the collection plates.
And that's how it got started, according to VP Wierwille.
I never heard that tale before.
I did hear the regular twig explanation (though when I first started attending twig - not in later years); it was given whilst holding a horn of plenty: "This little end represents what you put in, what you give to God; and this big end represents what he gives back to you." Struck me as a naff explanation then.
What I did like about the horn of plenty is that you could put your hand in and drop your offering without it being on display for all to see (=giving in secret), but then, where I was, we never got tangled up in reporting how much people had given. I didn't ever send in any form reporting how much my twig members had given.
In 1970 when I got involved, I, too, was promised TWI changed their teachings when "new light was discovered," etc. That became impossible for several reasons. To me the most glaring reason is this: VP had already taught "the Truth" in the PFAL class (inside flap of PFAL book states it is "The Accuracy of the Bible,") so how could he come back and change what he'd taught and still be considered credible?
The documentation for this claim of changing is on a handout sheet, "For Those Who Want to Know," although it is confusing to understand since whoever wrote it was apparently confused, too.
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teachmevp
ALARMING side effects, I face that day in and day out because of my research. I have been alienated from a lot of people because of research, it is funny in a way how you said that, alarming side ef
teachmevp
You have no idea how much you have help with that noun and verb of life, thanks so much; I think that a adverb colors the verb or something like that? That -5 is about a bad reputation, the thought
teachmevp
Those Jaws Harp can jack you up quick, I get my lips caught every now and then, crazy what I put myself through to play a Jaws Harp, but I got this sound. That does hurt, hitting your tooth with one
Keith
I know it was always mentioned that they would change if they were wrong when I first was involved in 1972 and 73. I did see times in the very early days that they did change, but not on anything major that wasn't their own work. Obviously they think they are right, so if they believe they are right they are not going to change.
Your example of John 10:10 is a case in point in how they react to information that disagrees with what they teach. Honestly, I wouldn't change my thought about that either. (not to turn this into a docternal discussion) but when I read this passage I see it as a more abundant life both in the new heaven and earth and the now, both spiritual and physical. Life in every aspect. I read your thoughts on this in another thread and it didn't convence me. But I respect you and thank you for sharing it.
They also have changed, from time to time their doctrine. The Athletes of the spirit is one they used to hold up as an example that will change their teaching based on "new knowledge." (don't get me going there though) One of the other areas they mentioned was "Are the Dead Alive Now." I have heard early teaching by VPW where he did not teach this, but based on new revelation he changed.
Of course sometimes how we show people can make a difference. At our current church I would never teach something that I knew disagreed with their understanding without sharing it with the pastor first and having his permission. If he didn't give it, we would agree to disagree in that area and focus on what we do agree on. If I taught it first, I would expect him to be angry with and would not be surprized by it at all.
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teachmevp
That is cool they changed from time to time, this new knowledge thing, I
don't think I have heard that before, could you share that with me?
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Keith
It's been so long I don't remember any of the specific instances, besides the two I mentioned. Most of the time it was as a result of their research. I know they've gone back and forth a lot regarding whether the tithe should be off of your gross income or net income, or in other words, before or after taxes. Of course they were always willing to change if it was based on their "research". I do have memory where they changed something based that some plain PFAL grad had pointed out. but I don't remember what it was, and I've long ago "lost" the reel-to-reel tapes from that time period. But again, it was something minor, anything major always required that it be from their research team.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Every once in awhile, twi would announce a "correction" on some minor point...
...it was simply a pretense to "demonstrate" to all of us that they indeed were a "research" "ministry"...It was all part of the dog and pony show...in reality, all they wanted was for the money to keep rolling in.
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krys
Right Groucho! They didn't always believe in Eve's homosexual encounter....but once it was made plain to them by their fearless leader.....everybody seemed to jump on board and believe the "present truth".
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JavaJane
I have (from a source who would know) heard that Rosie said during the filming of the new class that he new class "wouldn't have any of that Eve lesbian nonsense" in it. It doesn't, but they NEVER informed the regular old believer that the teaching was "nonsense", did they?
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Steve Lortz
The phrase "present truth" and all the rationalization behind it is an abomination.
LOve,
Steve
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krys
JavaJane:
Since when did they ever give a rat's petunias about the individuals EXCEPT to empty our their wallets and scream at them and control the number of sheets of tp that were consumed!
I'm really riled up about this group lately.....
good evening mr linder
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waysider
The man was a demagogue. He created problems for the sole purpose of taking credit for fixing them. Here's an example. He gives rise to this "change" idea in PLAF (The Wonder Class). It's here that he tells us about how The Way changed its stance on the issue of how many days transpired between the resurrection and the ascension. Did you even know it was a "problem" before he told you it was? How do we really know that he ascribed to the first position to begin with? What purpose does it serve other than to say, "Look at me! I solved your problem." I remember hiking through the woods with a bunch of the guys from the neighborhood. when I was a kid. Invariably, if you ventured near a cliff's edge, one of the guys would quickly grab your collar, give you a slight nudge forward and then forcefully pull you back. At that point he would exclaim, "I saved your life!"
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teachmevp
waysider, well said, I would have never thought of that, what a trip;
the money seems to be a root to this, thanks for that input everyone.
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chockfull
We will change.
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waysider
Maybe he was really saying, "We WANT your change," (and folding money,too)
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teachmevp
It seemed like every twig I went to, they all had the same size of horn of get
your dough, was their a one size horn thing rule?
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waysider
I have posted on the origin of the horn of plenty. I'm not very good at doing searches, though.
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teachmevp
I don't know how to use the quote thing?
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dmiller
Wrap the "quote" tags before and after. Otherwise, click the reply button
(NOT the "post a reply button") and the person's post will show up in a quote. :)
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teachmevp
I don't know if I did that right? Cool, thanks dmiller.
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waysider
Posted 24 June 2010 - 09:09 PM
Ahhhhh----The horn of plenty story.
I've told it before but I'll tell it again for the newer posters.
In the early days of The Way, they used to use standard collection plates like every other church.
One evening, they were having a meeting at a funeral home or some similar type of facility.
When the time drew near to taking up the collection, it was discovered the plates had been left behind at some other place.
"Uncle Harry" (he wasn't MY uncle!) looked around and spotted some floral arrangements in cornucopias. (Or would that be cornucopii?)
Anyhow, he took the flowers out and used the horns in lieu of the collection plates.
And that's how it got started, according to VP Wierwille.
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dmiller
You got it right. :)
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teachmevp
It is a long story on how I was sitting on highway 29 with my thumb out, but
I was sitting out side of new knotsville on the way side of the town, by a grave
yard, as I was looking at this grave yard, I thought it odd their was the towns
signs with the Loin club and all those groups including the way, right by this
grave yard, it was just creepy, just taking flower out of that kinda stuff is creepy
too?
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dmiller
"Loins club"? A "privileged twig" of twi there at Hdqtrs no doubt, eh?
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teachmevp
I never saw a town welcome sign like thing by a grave yard, and the way sign on it,
maybe the loins club is trying to tell people, it is a dead party down the road at that
rosies place? I wonder if the way can sue their town for putting their way welcome
sign by a grave yard?
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Twinky
I never heard that tale before.
I did hear the regular twig explanation (though when I first started attending twig - not in later years); it was given whilst holding a horn of plenty: "This little end represents what you put in, what you give to God; and this big end represents what he gives back to you." Struck me as a naff explanation then.
What I did like about the horn of plenty is that you could put your hand in and drop your offering without it being on display for all to see (=giving in secret), but then, where I was, we never got tangled up in reporting how much people had given. I didn't ever send in any form reporting how much my twig members had given.
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penworks
In 1970 when I got involved, I, too, was promised TWI changed their teachings when "new light was discovered," etc. That became impossible for several reasons. To me the most glaring reason is this: VP had already taught "the Truth" in the PFAL class (inside flap of PFAL book states it is "The Accuracy of the Bible,") so how could he come back and change what he'd taught and still be considered credible?
The documentation for this claim of changing is on a handout sheet, "For Those Who Want to Know," although it is confusing to understand since whoever wrote it was apparently confused, too.
See my post #82 in this thread:
Change when learn something new
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