yeah, Gaither threatened to sue TWI(Wierwille and Ted Ferrell) for copyright infringement since they didn't ask permission to print the words or changed them for"doctrinal purity".
Bill Gaither threatened to sue TWI? I don't know why that surprises me..but, it really does. I wonder how Gaither even knew? It is not like he went to fellowship or anything. Can I ask where you heard this Thomas?
Ted pops in here now and then and i still keep in touch -- i could ask him
Please, if you think of it. The Gaither's are such kind people. . . . it just surprises me so much! My kid knows Ernie Haase and Doug Anderson, they were so so good to my son!
yeah, Gaither threatened to sue TWI(Wierwille and Ted Ferrell) for copyright infringement since they didn't ask permission to print the words or changed them for"doctrinal purity".
Ha..
well, it would agree with what I saw with the hurredly collected cheap prints of the *official* anthem of da way corps..
Before I "got into the word", I was pretty active in the local theatre and music scene in Cleveland. I wrote/co-wrote lots and lots of songs. Almost all of them were copyrighted. (Though they are now in public domain.) In about 1973, I approached one of the premier (at the time) ministry music groups and offered to let them use my music, even change whatever they might need to make it "right on". They totally blew me off. Couldn't be bothered to even listen to what I had. Like a kid who turns his nose up at a particular kind of food without so much as tasting it. So, now, even though they have lapsed into public domain, they remain intact, just as I, along with my musical partner, wrote them all those years ago....unadulterated by Way dogma.
Please, if you think of it. The Gaither's are such kind people. . . . it just surprises me so much! My kid knows Ernie Haase and Doug Anderson, they were so so good to my son!
Unless you were not talking to me. :)
It wouldn't be mean-spirited of Bill Gaither to do that. First of all, it was a slap in the face to use one of his songs without permission. It was, in fact stealing. That's why there are copyright laws. Also, he feels as strong about his doctrinal beliefs as does TWI, so he would believe he was defending. Plus, of course, a lot of people believed then as they do know that TWI was a cult. He probably didn't want to have any of his songs associated with that.
forgot I already had xeroxed copy of 1990 version of SATW. I still would like the 1970's keyboard edition that Dorothy and Rhoda used for organ/piano, or was that old wine and wineskins as oppossed to the present truth? Also interesting that Wierwille and Co. sang "O Word of God Incarnate" to the tune of Aurelia, normally associated with "The Church's One Foundation" instead of Munich(Felix Mendelsohn). Maybe I should repeat this thread on ExWay Vision website.
forgot I already had xeroxed copy of 1990 version of SATW. I still would like the 1970's keyboard edition that Dorothy and Rhoda used for organ/piano, or was that old wine and wineskins as oppossed to the present truth? Also interesting that Wierwille and Co. sang "O Word of God Incarnate" to the tune of Aurelia, normally associated with "The Church's One Foundation" instead of Munich(Felix Mendelsohn). Maybe I should repeat this thread on ExWay Vision website.
and the irony is that song is about Jesus Christ being the Word Incarnate, not Holy Scripture/Bible
and the irony is that song is about Jesus Christ being the Word Incarnate, not Holy Scripture/Bible
Is "Aurelia" the same tune as Elvis' "Love Me Tender"?
You do realize, don't you, that "incarnate" means "embodied in flesh, personified". So the Holy Scriptures/Bible would not fit that description. Jesus Christ would, you know, the Word in flesh?
Is "Aurelia" the same tune as Elvis' "Love Me Tender"?
You do realize, don't you, that "incarnate" means "embodied in flesh, personified". So the Holy Scriptures/Bible would not fit that description. Jesus Christ would, you know, the Word in flesh?
BA, Aurelia is Latin for golden and was composed by Samuel Sebatian Wesley, grandson of Charles and is often associated with the text "The Church's One Foundation is Jesus Christ her(our)Lord" by Samuel Stone.
BA, Aurelia is Latin for golden and was composed by Samuel Sebatian Wesley, grandson of Charles and is often associated with the text "The Church's One Foundation is Jesus Christ her(our)Lord" by Samuel Stone.
Thomas--Do you know if authors in that period wrote the lyrics and the music or just one or the other?
I have been going to Sacred Harp (shape note) sings lately and there are a huge amount of songs attributed to Charles Wesley, as well as other early writers like Isaac Watts and Philip Dodderidge.
I have a feeling the music was alterred from the originals to suit the eclectic shape note style of William Billings but I have no real way of knowing.
Thomas--Do you know if authors in that period wrote the lyrics and the music or just one or the other?
I have been going to Sacred Harp (shape note) sings lately and there are a huge amount of songs attributed to Charles Wesley, as well as other early writers like Isaac Watts and Philip Dodderidge.
I have a feeling the music was alterred from the originals to suit the eclectic shape note style of William Billings but I have no real way of knowing.
From about 1700 on, the author of the texts was seperate from the composer. for instance Issac Watts wrote lyrics but no music. We have down here in the South, shaped note hymn sings(Fa-Sol-La) from Sacred Harp, Sothern Harmony, Christian Lyre, and Kentucky Harmony. Only with recent Contemporary Praise Music has author and composer been the one and same, similar to hymnody from Medieval and Renaisance period through the Baroque and Neo-Classical. 4 part hymnody(Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass) originally for choir and later for the congregation started around 1800.
From about 1700 on, the author of the texts was seperate from the composer. for instance Issac Watts wrote lyrics but no music. We have down here in the South, shaped note hymn sings(Fa-Sol-La) from Sacred Harp, Sothern Harmony, Christian Lyre, and Kentucky Harmony.
Ive just started singing out of the Sacred Harp 1991 Book. I like it alot but I'd like to hear the others, as the SH tradition as it now exists is very interesting but a little bit stringent. Reading from the 1860 book by White and King it seems that the approach may have been somewhat different at that time than it is now. As interesting as Sacred Harp is I would like to hear them as they were originally intended
Regarding the Watts songs many were not arranged for SH until 50 to 100 years after they were written, are there still copies of the original arrangements? or was this left to whatever composer decided to eventually arrange it?
It is shocking how many similarities we shared with The Worldwide Church of God under Armstrong. I was reading some of their stories of abuse...some with their leaders...the control, the manipulation. They could have been written here. Here is one about their music. If you get a chance to read some of these letters...it is a real eye-opener.
I just recently listened to some of the "Bible Hymnal" songs from the Worldwide Church of God tape albums that were sold at the Feast of Tabernacles in past years. I amazingly discovered that all the timewe thought we were singing the exact words from the Psalms, Dwight Armstrong (under Herbert W. Armstrong's tutorage?) had ever so slightly twisted the words and subtly introduced fear into the songs. What a heinous thing to do! The songs very much dwelt on "sins" and "wickedness" verses in the Psalms, but would leave out the verses that dealt with peace from God, His bearing our burdens, etc.
In the WCG, unknowingly, were starving to know the real Christ and His truth and weren't getting it! The sickening thing about all this is that the WCG leaders (and many ministers also) knew exactly what they were doing all along! In their songs they would change the word "Lord" to "Eternal" in most instances. They didn't want anything to sound like the other "Protestant" Christian music, which they told us was too "sentimental."
I also discovered that the WCG
changed the words in some of the newer hymns they added to their 1993 hymnal. To give only a few examples: In the hymn "God Be With You," they added a 4th refrain that wasn't at all in the original. In the chorus, they left out, "Till we meet at Jesus' feet." In the hymn "Onward Christian Solders," they changed "cross of Jesus" to "word of Jesus. "In the hymn "I am Thine O Lord," they changed the words in the chorus from "to the cross where Thou has died," to "the way that Thou hast shown," and they changed "to Thy precious, bleeding side," to "Thy ever-ruling throne." (It's true, the WCG never wanted to say the words "blood" if it tied in with how Christ had redeemed us. After all, blood was only mentioned to remind us that that's where the "life" was.)
Then I went over the music sheets that the choir used in the WCG, thinking it was all normal classical Christian music. I found out that much of it was taken from Roman Catholic music sheets! And here WCG told us that the Catholic Church was the "Great Whore of Babylon"!
Geisha, I thought Worldwide Church of God had become Trinitarian in the 1990's. Now the International Church of God and the Restored COG kept Herbert and Garner Ted's theology. I know of some house churches that use Hymns for the Family of God, Celebration Hymnal, and Renew: Hymns and Songs for Blended Worship. The publishers are consectivily(?) Parragon Press/Benton Publishing, Word Publishing/Integrity Music, and Hope Publishing.
Geisha, I thought Worldwide Church of God had become Trinitarian in the 1990's. Now the International Church of God and the Restored COG kept Herbert and Garner Ted's theology. I know of some house churches that use Hymns for the Family of God, Celebration Hymnal, and Renew: Hymns and Songs for Blended Worship. The publishers are consectivily(?) Parragon Press/Benton Publishing, Word Publishing/Integrity Music, and Hope Publishing.
They did become more mainstream Thomas, but I think this letter was written about a time before the splits and offshoots. It is interesting to me that they changed the words about the cross, and about the blood of Jesus. Interesting that subtle changes and not so subtle changes were made in their music to fit their theology. That site is filled with information about their hymnals. It is fascinating to me to see the parallels between the two cults. Some of the letters written by people who have left are filled with the exact same things we read here. The same struggles, fears, the same questions, and the same pain. Heartbreaking really. Armstrong is so similar to VP.
Not to get off topic, but this one sounded like it could have been posted here maybe...
I sometimes feel like I am going crazy and I shake at night in bed thinking that maybe I have lost my salvation. I have been given so many "warnings" from others still in the UCG telling me to repent and go back to the "true church." When I tell them that I no longer believe as they do, they tell me that perhaps I have lost my salvation and God has hardened my heart. They call me because they are "worried about me." I feel like I never belong anywhere and I can't seem to be able to not think about my past church life.
I have been told that I am lawless and don't want to obey God's commandments and that if I don't, I will never receive my "ultimate salvation" and be "born again" in the Kingdom of God. I read my Bible and I have church of god theology swimming through my head. I feel like it's hard to read my Bible and it's hard to pray because I have so many condemning thoughts in my head. Please pray for me. If God doesn't help me soon I am going to go nuts. I can't handle this anymore. I feel cut off from God. I feel it is very hard to go to other churches and to trust people. Thank you for listening. --A. A.
some notes about how hymns lyrics and tunes work...
lyrics are just poems, and many authors are poets, not music composers. When matching lyrics to tunes, you count the number of syllables in each phrase.
Amazing Grace, for instance, is 8-6-8-6 . "amazing grace, how sweet the sound (8), which saved a wretch like me (6), I once was lost but now I'm found (8) was blind but now I see (6)." This sequence was called "common meter" because it was a common lyric meter. There are lots of hymn lyrics written in this meter, and lots of tunes written in this meter. Song leaders and pastors did- and still do (as I do)- freely mix and match tunes and words to find a match that the people know and like. Sometimes a poem sat mostly unused for literally 50-100 years until a tune came along that helped it become popular.
Writing a new lyric/song in any commonly-used meter is an easy way to introduce it to a congregation- just use a tune they already know. I've tried my hand at writing new verses now and again, with mixed results, because I'm not by nature a poet.
It so happens that the theme song for "Gilligan's Island" is common meter with the last phrase repeated(8-6-8-6-6 go ahead and count the syllables for yourself) so will match the tune of amazing grace (the tune was not written by John Newton- he mostly just wrote lyrics) and of many other hymns.
VPW did not like "wretch like me"... maybe because it is taken from the Bible? - Romans 7:24
John, thanks. I took Hymnody at Lenoir Rhyne and had to memorize 120 different hymn tunes like Ein Feste Burg, New Britain, Slane, etc. when our Professor would play the tune on piano and were penalized if we instead gave first line of the lyrics. Know about CM, SM(short meter), LM(long), and PM(peculiar), plus numbers like 8787D.
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excathedra
sniff
(i have more too sniff)
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excathedra
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geisha779
Bill Gaither threatened to sue TWI? I don't know why that surprises me..but, it really does. I wonder how Gaither even knew? It is not like he went to fellowship or anything. Can I ask where you heard this Thomas?
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excathedra
okay just this one more -- then i'll stop so as not to be a derailer choo choo
this is my favorite of all time
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Ted pops in here now and then and i still keep in touch -- i could ask him
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geisha779
Please, if you think of it. The Gaither's are such kind people. . . . it just surprises me so much! My kid knows Ernie Haase and Doug Anderson, they were so so good to my son!
Unless you were not talking to me. :)
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Ham
Ha..
well, it would agree with what I saw with the hurredly collected cheap prints of the *official* anthem of da way corps..
what didn't he steal..
I think the lyrics were in the blue song book..
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waysider
Now, here's kind of a funny story, in retrospect.
Before I "got into the word", I was pretty active in the local theatre and music scene in Cleveland. I wrote/co-wrote lots and lots of songs. Almost all of them were copyrighted. (Though they are now in public domain.) In about 1973, I approached one of the premier (at the time) ministry music groups and offered to let them use my music, even change whatever they might need to make it "right on". They totally blew me off. Couldn't be bothered to even listen to what I had. Like a kid who turns his nose up at a particular kind of food without so much as tasting it. So, now, even though they have lapsed into public domain, they remain intact, just as I, along with my musical partner, wrote them all those years ago....unadulterated by Way dogma.
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Broken Arrow
It wouldn't be mean-spirited of Bill Gaither to do that. First of all, it was a slap in the face to use one of his songs without permission. It was, in fact stealing. That's why there are copyright laws. Also, he feels as strong about his doctrinal beliefs as does TWI, so he would believe he was defending. Plus, of course, a lot of people believed then as they do know that TWI was a cult. He probably didn't want to have any of his songs associated with that.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
forgot I already had xeroxed copy of 1990 version of SATW. I still would like the 1970's keyboard edition that Dorothy and Rhoda used for organ/piano, or was that old wine and wineskins as oppossed to the present truth? Also interesting that Wierwille and Co. sang "O Word of God Incarnate" to the tune of Aurelia, normally associated with "The Church's One Foundation" instead of Munich(Felix Mendelsohn). Maybe I should repeat this thread on ExWay Vision website.
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Twinky
Huh, the words to "Family of God" are so different.
Can see why it became WC only - the WC anthem - to keep the plagiarism secret.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
and the irony is that song is about Jesus Christ being the Word Incarnate, not Holy Scripture/Bible
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Broken Arrow
Is "Aurelia" the same tune as Elvis' "Love Me Tender"?
You do realize, don't you, that "incarnate" means "embodied in flesh, personified". So the Holy Scriptures/Bible would not fit that description. Jesus Christ would, you know, the Word in flesh?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
BA, Aurelia is Latin for golden and was composed by Samuel Sebatian Wesley, grandson of Charles and is often associated with the text "The Church's One Foundation is Jesus Christ her(our)Lord" by Samuel Stone.
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mstar1
Those Wesley lads sure got around...
How many hymns did they write? I can never open a hymnbook anywhere without seeing a whole pile of 'em by one Wesley or another--good ones too.
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Broken Arrow
Thank you, Thomas.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
John wrote over 600 hymn texts and Charles composed some music(not sure how much)
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mstar1
Thomas--Do you know if authors in that period wrote the lyrics and the music or just one or the other?
I have been going to Sacred Harp (shape note) sings lately and there are a huge amount of songs attributed to Charles Wesley, as well as other early writers like Isaac Watts and Philip Dodderidge.
I have a feeling the music was alterred from the originals to suit the eclectic shape note style of William Billings but I have no real way of knowing.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
From about 1700 on, the author of the texts was seperate from the composer. for instance Issac Watts wrote lyrics but no music. We have down here in the South, shaped note hymn sings(Fa-Sol-La) from Sacred Harp, Sothern Harmony, Christian Lyre, and Kentucky Harmony. Only with recent Contemporary Praise Music has author and composer been the one and same, similar to hymnody from Medieval and Renaisance period through the Baroque and Neo-Classical. 4 part hymnody(Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass) originally for choir and later for the congregation started around 1800.
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mstar1
Ive just started singing out of the Sacred Harp 1991 Book. I like it alot but I'd like to hear the others, as the SH tradition as it now exists is very interesting but a little bit stringent. Reading from the 1860 book by White and King it seems that the approach may have been somewhat different at that time than it is now. As interesting as Sacred Harp is I would like to hear them as they were originally intended
Regarding the Watts songs many were not arranged for SH until 50 to 100 years after they were written, are there still copies of the original arrangements? or was this left to whatever composer decided to eventually arrange it?
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geisha779
It is shocking how many similarities we shared with The Worldwide Church of God under Armstrong. I was reading some of their stories of abuse...some with their leaders...the control, the manipulation. They could have been written here. Here is one about their music. If you get a chance to read some of these letters...it is a real eye-opener.
http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/letters/ltrs04.htm#The_Awful_Music
I just recently listened to some of the "Bible Hymnal" songs from the Worldwide Church of God tape albums that were sold at the Feast of Tabernacles in past years. I amazingly discovered that all the time we thought we were singing the exact words from the Psalms, Dwight Armstrong (under Herbert W. Armstrong's tutorage?) had ever so slightly twisted the words and subtly introduced fear into the songs. What a heinous thing to do! The songs very much dwelt on "sins" and "wickedness" verses in the Psalms, but would leave out the verses that dealt with peace from God, His bearing our burdens, etc.
In the WCG, unknowingly, were starving to know the real Christ and His truth and weren't getting it! The sickening thing about all this is that the WCG leaders (and many ministers also) knew exactly what they were doing all along! In their songs they would change the word "Lord" to "Eternal" in most instances. They didn't want anything to sound like the other "Protestant" Christian music, which they told us was too "sentimental."
I also discovered that the WCG
changed the words in some of the newer hymns they added to their 1993 hymnal. To give only a few examples: In the hymn "God Be With You," they added a 4th refrain that wasn't at all in the original. In the chorus, they left out, "Till we meet at Jesus' feet." In the hymn "Onward Christian Solders," they changed "cross of Jesus" to "word of Jesus. "In the hymn "I am Thine O Lord," they changed the words in the chorus from "to the cross where Thou has died," to "the way that Thou hast shown," and they changed "to Thy precious, bleeding side," to "Thy ever-ruling throne." (It's true, the WCG never wanted to say the words "blood" if it tied in with how Christ had redeemed us. After all, blood was only mentioned to remind us that that's where the "life" was.)Then I went over the music sheets that the choir used in the WCG, thinking it was all normal classical Christian music. I found out that much of it was taken from Roman Catholic music sheets! And here WCG told us that the Catholic Church was the "Great Whore of Babylon"!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Geisha, I thought Worldwide Church of God had become Trinitarian in the 1990's. Now the International Church of God and the Restored COG kept Herbert and Garner Ted's theology. I know of some house churches that use Hymns for the Family of God, Celebration Hymnal, and Renew: Hymns and Songs for Blended Worship. The publishers are consectivily(?) Parragon Press/Benton Publishing, Word Publishing/Integrity Music, and Hope Publishing.
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geisha779
They did become more mainstream Thomas, but I think this letter was written about a time before the splits and offshoots. It is interesting to me that they changed the words about the cross, and about the blood of Jesus. Interesting that subtle changes and not so subtle changes were made in their music to fit their theology. That site is filled with information about their hymnals. It is fascinating to me to see the parallels between the two cults. Some of the letters written by people who have left are filled with the exact same things we read here. The same struggles, fears, the same questions, and the same pain. Heartbreaking really. Armstrong is so similar to VP.
Not to get off topic, but this one sounded like it could have been posted here maybe...
I sometimes feel like I am going crazy and I shake at night in bed thinking that maybe I have lost my salvation. I have been given so many "warnings" from others still in the UCG telling me to repent and go back to the "true church." When I tell them that I no longer believe as they do, they tell me that perhaps I have lost my salvation and God has hardened my heart. They call me because they are "worried about me." I feel like I never belong anywhere and I can't seem to be able to not think about my past church life.
I have been told that I am lawless and don't want to obey God's commandments and that if I don't, I will never receive my "ultimate salvation" and be "born again" in the Kingdom of God. I read my Bible and I have church of god theology swimming through my head. I feel like it's hard to read my Bible and it's hard to pray because I have so many condemning thoughts in my head. Please pray for me. If God doesn't help me soon I am going to go nuts. I can't handle this anymore. I feel cut off from God. I feel it is very hard to go to other churches and to trust people. Thank you for listening. --A. A.
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johnj
some notes about how hymns lyrics and tunes work...
lyrics are just poems, and many authors are poets, not music composers. When matching lyrics to tunes, you count the number of syllables in each phrase.
Amazing Grace, for instance, is 8-6-8-6 . "amazing grace, how sweet the sound (8), which saved a wretch like me (6), I once was lost but now I'm found (8) was blind but now I see (6)." This sequence was called "common meter" because it was a common lyric meter. There are lots of hymn lyrics written in this meter, and lots of tunes written in this meter. Song leaders and pastors did- and still do (as I do)- freely mix and match tunes and words to find a match that the people know and like. Sometimes a poem sat mostly unused for literally 50-100 years until a tune came along that helped it become popular.
Writing a new lyric/song in any commonly-used meter is an easy way to introduce it to a congregation- just use a tune they already know. I've tried my hand at writing new verses now and again, with mixed results, because I'm not by nature a poet.
It so happens that the theme song for "Gilligan's Island" is common meter with the last phrase repeated(8-6-8-6-6 go ahead and count the syllables for yourself) so will match the tune of amazing grace (the tune was not written by John Newton- he mostly just wrote lyrics) and of many other hymns.
VPW did not like "wretch like me"... maybe because it is taken from the Bible? - Romans 7:24
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
John, thanks. I took Hymnody at Lenoir Rhyne and had to memorize 120 different hymn tunes like Ein Feste Burg, New Britain, Slane, etc. when our Professor would play the tune on piano and were penalized if we instead gave first line of the lyrics. Know about CM, SM(short meter), LM(long), and PM(peculiar), plus numbers like 8787D.
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