I know a man here in STL who is black. I'm sure there is just as much variety in Christianity for black churches as there is for white. I don't know how common this man's situation was, but he went to a church where these 6 women called the mothers stood in a circle around him. They had him get down on his hands and knees and they asked him to repeat the words "thank you Jesus" over and over until the holy ghost took over and he spoke in tongues. He did this for 6 hours and while he was doing this those mothers were chanting stuff like YEAH YEAH JESUS COME INTO HIM JESUS YEAH. Then after 6 hours they stopped and said, "he didn't make it".
The guy was heart broken. But he got witnessed to in a convenience store by a white girl. He came to a fellowship and after the teaching was over he raved and said he'd been looking for something like this his whole life. He went on to become a branch leader. Great guy.
I can't really dispute that many of us were arrogant and complacent as though we had the copyright on God's word. I would only submit that the souls won for the Lord Jesus Christ through twi are every bit as precious as those won by Mother Teresa. I think Jesus was addressing arrogance and complacency when he said there were many lepers in Israel in Naaman's time, but he, a Syrian, got healed and they didn't. And there were many widows in Israel when Elijah had to run away for 3 years, but God sent him to a woman in Sidon, not Israel. There were probably a lot of catholic women who got assignments similar to Mother Teresa as well. A lot of good was done for God by wows.
So, the guy escapes one cult, only to be snatched up by another.
Sorry, John, I'm not seeing any "deliverance" in that.
Arrogance and selfishness were certainly plentiful in twi. However, people's arrogance and selfishness did not hinder God from delivering people who were seeking him, even in twi. God should get the thanks and the glory, for sure, but the fact remains that God's Word was spoken, people believed it, and people got delivered while associated with twi.
I knew someone who kicked heroin overnight. A girl I helped as a WOW, a teenager, quit prowling the streets every night and believing every jerk who came her way and instead learned to have some respect for herself. Those are drops in the bucket. I saw many, many, many more.
The point I'm making is that God is not limited by the flaws and sins of the people who speak for Him or claim to speak for Him. I feel that message gets lost too often in the haste to promote the everything-anti-twi message.
"..... he got witnessed to in a convenience store by a white girl. He came to a fellowship and after the teaching was over he raved and said he'd been looking for something like this his whole life. He went on to become a branch leader."
Joining a cult and subsequently becoming a leader in it is not the same thing as "deliverance".
God should get the thanks and the glory, for sure, but the fact remains that God's Word was spoken, people believed it, and people got delivered while associated with twi.
I knew someone who kicked heroin overnight. A girl I helped as a WOW, a teenager, quit prowling the streets every night and believing every jerk who came her way and instead learned to have some respect for herself. Those are drops in the bucket. I saw many, many, many more.
I have no dispute that many were healed and delivered. I was one of them. I had Del Duncan do "something" and I felt my brain come together and Jesus came to live in there. The tragedy of the selfishness I speak of is that the ministries of the tender people who loved God with all their heart soul mind and strength was twisted, perverted and aborted because from the top down was that cripplilng self-ishness which eliminated the Holy Spirit and His love and kindness.
Only by eliminating the Holy Spirit and biblical accountability could twi become the residence of the horrors such as what GT speaks about in his heartbreaking story of his daughter's abuse and the attempted coverup here.
What massive impact in the world could the precious muic of Brxxn Bli$, T0m Lepin$ki, Skip Mesquite and so many others have made if they were under a ministry that was supported by that anchor of Jesus Christ in the harbor of God's love rather than vpw's perversion?
In my opinion "God gets the glory" when lives that are healed go on to live and grow with the Lord and make an impact in the world. That's what WOW meant to us at one time when we had dawn in our eyes. But that didn't happen, and I believe it's because of the selfishness of vpw from the top down dripping throughout the ministry.
To me the most vile stories of abuse are those of the "precious little ones" whose lives and ministries were destroyed. And there is no court of law that will defend this abuse except God Almighty's Judgment. I have one precious guy -- So most precious guy who went out WOW 5 times because he trusted this was the way to serve, and last I knew of him his brother had abandoned him, he never met a woman [in twi] who thought his tender heart for the Lord was a most precious commodity, so he had no family of his own, no career, and last I heard he was homeless and I haven't heard from him in years. He was one of those guys who delivered God's love, but he wasn't trained in how to live and his leadership abandoned him when he was in trouble. That's one precious heart ache for which I demand justice when I pray.
…without David Wilkerson's obedience to go into the pits of hell, I wouldn't be here. Neither would millions of souls who have come to the Lord through Nicky Cruz Outreach, Teen Challenge, Victory Outreach, and World Challenge. History will tell of the legacy that he has left behind and the countless number of people like me that he touched whom nobody else would have gotten close to.
I look at Nicky Cruz' "NCO" website and think what Del Duncan's website could be if he had been allowed to move with that Holy Spirit by which he touched so many? What if we were able to stay with the people we loved so much and provide a ministry of "helps" to truly help guys like Del increase their ministry and faith like Nicky Cruz has done? What about Jimmy Doop? So many who tried to live their lives before the Lord but had their vision twisted and turned away from the Lord and onto twi? Even J0xx Lyxx. What if he had been taught from the get go to use his passion and humor for the Lord and had godly oversight and direction to help him walk with the Lord instead of all the bickering and backbiting selfishness of the "great I AM" and the hardening of heart that encouraged?
Our WOW service was highlighted by weekly reports of "hours spent witnessing," "hours worked" etc.Corps training was the same, plus that degree won't tread any water in any other ministry because of the perverseness of twi. What a waste of micromanaged time learning to focus on twi, not on the Lord. The impact that David WIlkerson's life had came by continuing to walk with the Lord and growing in faith with Him. David Wilkerson was beat up by those guys when he was witnessing and he still kept saying, "Jesus loves you, Nicky." And David Wilkerson continued to look for ways to show people that Jesus loved them.
In twi many also didso in "the early days'', but the longer we stayed in twi, the more twi had to do with our lives and the less the Holy Spirit did.
The offshoots of twi just don't have impact because of the inbred selfishness. The second generation twi ministries are still bound into the selfish self centered "I'm OK so what's the problem?"
Where is the sacrificial giving and heartrending missionary trips to ease the troubles of the natural disasters of Japan, Joplin Missouri, and the Mississippi flooding. Where are schools and orphanages created to save and inspire the Babe Ruth of tomorrow like Father Flanagan's Boy's Town?
I see no work to improve the lives of those less fortunate in twi related groups. Jesus fed the 5,000. But when does a twi or extwi ministry send missionaries to build wells for fresh water or goats or cows for increased quality of life or a sewing machine and lessons to help an impoverished mother provide for her family? Billy Graham's son Franklin does this. Catholics do this. And what does twi and extwi bunches do? They trivialize what other Christians are doing.
When discussing the natural disasters that strike, the great miracle is that, "Well it missed me, thank God." But what about those whose houses and business got wiped out? Where is the compassion and the works compassion should encourage?
David Wilkerson's passing has produced thousands of website postings so far, and Mother Teresa's life has generated untold declarations of thankfulness for her life. And Pope Paul II who I know was a most precious one to the Lord. . . The impact of people who twi trivialized is truly awesome when one looks outside of the fairytale "closed corporation" of a twi place.
Johniam it is pathetic that you cannot see the difference between the impact of a life lived before the Lord in integrity and a life of filth and hypocricy. I expect that Mother Teresa had a welcoming throng of billions when she arrived at heaven's door.
What about vpw's welcoming crowd at heaven's door? (if indeed he will be there which I would not bet on.) Do you imagine yourself leading a mighty army of people in heaven who rejoice at the name of vpw? Will your army consist of the babies he ordered to be aborted?The people whose lives he destroyed?Do you think even Craig Martindale now is happy for his twi years?How many of the denizens of the Greasespot Café would trade their twi years for years under a ministry that was run with integrity at the top down?I know I sure would if I could.
Johniam Can you not see that the testimony of these people you have met at the Greasespot Café is a witness to a filthy pervert who truly used God's name in vain?
The fact that twi legally holds the name "The Way" is no more a stamp of approval from the Lord than Barabbas' name, which means "The Son of the Father" identified the true "Son of the Father" that stood before Pilate more than 2,000 years ago. Although the crowd before Pilate called to release Barabbas, It was that precious Jesus, for whom they called, "crucify him crucify him" who was the "Son of the Father."
Truly God always has the last word on these things. I so yearn and hope that my words agree with His.
In twi many also did so in "the early days," but the longer we stayed in twi, the more twi had to do with our lives and the less the Holy Spirit did.
Amen, sister. I remember thinking so often, "What happened? Why isn't it like it once was?" But I knew the answer. The twi organization was more important to its leaders than God and God's people, and when I woke up and saw that, I knew it was time to go.
Ego and lack of love are real buzz killers, aren't they?
The best thing anyone can do while on earth is to get born again. We're not saved by works, we're saved by grace. We have incorruptible seed. Our eternal relationship with God is not based on "what have you done for God lately"? Helping people who are starving, storm damaged, sick, abused, etc. will do good for this life only. Even LCM used to say it was a good thing that someone was building hospitals, but it wasn't Jesus or his disciples.
You could make the argument that people need to be fed, clothed, loved, etc. before they can make a meaningful decision about God and Jesus Christ, but at least wows were honest. They were there to get people into pfal which would get them born again. That's a good thing. I make no apologies for what I believe.
quote: Sorry, John, I'm not seeing any "deliverance" in that.
PFAL was a mishmash of plagiarized works. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation, based on faulty "research". In other words, the WOW program was nothing more than a sales campaign for a defective product. Again, that's not an opinion, it's a fact. In no way is that meant to denigrate participants of the program. We all got duped on one level or another.
If God is real, and everything His word says He is, He certainly wouldn't need a hodgepodge class like PFAL to accomplish salvation, now would He?.
The best thing anyone can do while on earth is to get born again. We're not saved by works, we're saved by grace. We have incorruptible seed. Our eternal relationship with God is not based on "what have you done for God lately"? Helping people who are starving, storm damaged, sick, abused, etc. will do good for this life only. Even LCM used to say it was a good thing that someone was building hospitals, but it wasn't Jesus or his disciples.
You could make the argument that people need to be fed, clothed, loved, etc. before they can make a meaningful decision about God and Jesus Christ, but at least wows were honest. They were there to get people into pfal which would get them born again. That's a good thing. I make no apologies for what I believe.
I have to wonder what you do with verses like this ...He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me? declares the LORD. Jesus saying, I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink....I needed clothes and you clothed me.
Words straight from the mouth of God and it appears that is what we are judged by... There is not a great deal of hidden meaning in those words.....visit the prisoners....minister to the sick.
I have to say, my life would be a whole lot easier if I didn't take Jesus at face value. It is not works as much as a result of believing in and loving the one who saved us. Faith? A result of true faith?
So, when Jesus says...I was hungry and you didn't feed me....PFAL grads can say...yeah, sorry about that, but I browbeat 3 people into taking the class. I was gonna bring you that cup of water, but I took "Dealing with the Adversary" that weekend. I would have come to the prison, but that branch meeting ran long and I would have brought you a blanket, but my WOW coordinator wouldn't let me out past midnight. And Lord, they were running CF&S ....you didn't want to miss that wisdom did you?
In reference to Kit's post. I would just like to reiterate that in TWI Christ was absent. You find that written in some of their books not the least of which is the PFAL book. So I've developed the following formula:
Organization - presence of Christ (Messiah)= non-Christian organization.
Therefore since TWI by its own admission claims Christ was absent, The Way International (or The Way, Incorporated as it was formerly known) was not a Christian organization. If God moved, and He did at times, then it was in spite of the teachings, attitudes, and sins of TWI.
That is not to say that everyone in TWI was not a Christian, but the organization itself did not follow Him or recognize his lordship.
many twi or extwi groups would (1) take a group from the nursing home to see a movie, and then (2) would think "that just rips your heart out" if something happened to those people? Christians do that. They care about other people, that's what the Holy Spirit does in your life, He builds those bonds of affection. From what I have seen Him do in my life, the Holy Spirit is all about building love and our "kindly affections" one towards another. I think the kindness is the mark that Jesus is there also. As He said we would be known as His disciples by our love one for another, and since faith worketh by love you can't lose by loving more.
Pray for those in the tornado areas. One young women said she had
taken a group from the nursing home there to see a movie earlier the day the
tornado hit. She told him that 5 are dead and another 4 are missing. She
asked him to please tell her this didn't happen. That just rips your heart
out. Need to keep that whole community in our hearts and prayers.
quote: In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation,
Proven?????? LOL. That's like telling me that music has been proven to not exist...by deaf people, of course. Well, you have your "proof" and I have mine. I can SIT, and that's a fact. People who believe in evolution believe that their beliefs are "factual". More selective reasoning.
quote: In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation,
Proven?????? LOL. That's like telling me that music has been proven to not exist...by deaf people, of course. Well, you have your "proof" and I have mine. I can SIT, and that's a fact. People who believe in evolution believe that their beliefs are "factual". More selective reasoning.
johniam this thread is about the compassion of Jesus for us and how important is that compassion to a Christian to live as He lived. From a devotional today by Watchman Nee, one of my all time favorites
The church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians 1.22,23.We should look to God for grace that we may see what the body of Christ is. Our lives need the protection of the entire body; individual members are useless. The preservation of life is in my life not being destroyed as well as others’ lives not being destroyed. If, negatively speaking, one blood vessel is broken and bleeds unceasingly, the whole body will eventually die. On the positive side, though, if the ear hears, the whole body hears; if the eye sees, the whole body sees. What one member receives, all the other members share in. Thus we must learn to live in the body; let us learn not to think of ourselves more highly than we ought to think, let us learn to treasure the church, and let us learn to walk with all the children of God.
Can you see the difference between his words and yours?
From your words appear the great "I AM" who needs to be appeased. What are you doing here?
From Watchman Nee there exudes a humility and a compassion and a longing as of the Lord to see people bound together as the one body of the Lord.
quote: In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation,
Proven?????? LOL. That's like telling me that music has been proven to not exist...by deaf people, of course. Well, you have your "proof" and I have mine. I can SIT, and that's a fact. People who believe in evolution believe that their beliefs are "factual". More selective reasoning.
johniam this thread is about the compassion of Jesus for us and how important is that compassion to a Christian to live as He lived. From a devotional today by Watchman Nee, one of my all time favorites
The church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians 1.22,23.We should look to God for grace that we may see what the body of Christ is. Our lives need the protection of the entire body; individual members are useless. The preservation of life is in my life not being destroyed as well as others' lives not being destroyed. If, negatively speaking, one blood vessel is broken and bleeds unceasingly, the whole body will eventually die. On the positive side, though, if the ear hears, the whole body hears; if the eye sees, the whole body sees. What one member receives, all the other members share in. Thus we must learn to live in the body; let us learn not to think of ourselves more highly than we ought to think, let us learn to treasure the church, and let us learn to walk with all the children of God.
Can you see the difference between his words and yours?
From your words appear the great "I AM" who needs to be appeased. What are you doing here?
From Watchman Nee there exudes a humility and a compassion and a longing as of the Lord to see people bound together as the one body of the Lord.
Here is a mother cat and her kitten. The natural and godly response is to heal and comfort. Your words, johniam, are lthrowing ice on godly conversations and killing kindness.
quote: In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation,
Proven?????? LOL. That's like telling me that music has been proven to not exist...by deaf people, of course. Well, you have your "proof" and I have mine. I can SIT, and that's a fact. People who believe in evolution believe that their beliefs are "factual". More selective reasoning.
John, you've been here for 11 years now. Are you expecting me to believe that in those 11 years you haven't realized most of Wierwille's work was plagiarized? There are whole sections of RTHST that are virtual word-for-word copies of previously existing material. Wierwille did not write it. He copied it and changed a few words, changed some of the phrasing around. That's plagiarism. There is 11 years of hard core, indisputable evidence of that here on the GSC threads. Your speaking in tongues has no relevance to that, nor does the topic of evolution.
If you want to continue discussing those topics, which are a diversion from the subject of the thread, I suggest you start your own thread and stop trying to derail this one.
God's Word concerning how "minor" the subject of compassion is for the brethren....
James 2:15-20 (KJV)
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
=======================
James 2:15-20 (NASB)
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
========================
Surely the Lord who wanted some privacy, and instead healed the multitudes that followed him, and also fed them loaves
and fishes when all he wanted to do is get alone to pray after receiving devastating news,
surely he would recognize that there's more to "Christian service" than Romans 10:9,
and more to "serving" than teaching the Bible.
(Not that there's anything wrong with teaching the Bible, nor with wishing someone to go in peace,
but there's a time for each. Surely those who pride themselves on being CHRISTians, on being "of Christ",
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cman
Thanks Kit.
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JavaJane
Yes, thanks, Kit. Great post.
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johniam
I know a man here in STL who is black. I'm sure there is just as much variety in Christianity for black churches as there is for white. I don't know how common this man's situation was, but he went to a church where these 6 women called the mothers stood in a circle around him. They had him get down on his hands and knees and they asked him to repeat the words "thank you Jesus" over and over until the holy ghost took over and he spoke in tongues. He did this for 6 hours and while he was doing this those mothers were chanting stuff like YEAH YEAH JESUS COME INTO HIM JESUS YEAH. Then after 6 hours they stopped and said, "he didn't make it".
The guy was heart broken. But he got witnessed to in a convenience store by a white girl. He came to a fellowship and after the teaching was over he raved and said he'd been looking for something like this his whole life. He went on to become a branch leader. Great guy.
I can't really dispute that many of us were arrogant and complacent as though we had the copyright on God's word. I would only submit that the souls won for the Lord Jesus Christ through twi are every bit as precious as those won by Mother Teresa. I think Jesus was addressing arrogance and complacency when he said there were many lepers in Israel in Naaman's time, but he, a Syrian, got healed and they didn't. And there were many widows in Israel when Elijah had to run away for 3 years, but God sent him to a woman in Sidon, not Israel. There were probably a lot of catholic women who got assignments similar to Mother Teresa as well. A lot of good was done for God by wows.
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waysider
So, the guy escapes one cult, only to be snatched up by another.
Sorry, John, I'm not seeing any "deliverance" in that.
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Linda Z
Good, thought-provoking post, Kit. Thanks.
Arrogance and selfishness were certainly plentiful in twi. However, people's arrogance and selfishness did not hinder God from delivering people who were seeking him, even in twi. God should get the thanks and the glory, for sure, but the fact remains that God's Word was spoken, people believed it, and people got delivered while associated with twi.
I knew someone who kicked heroin overnight. A girl I helped as a WOW, a teenager, quit prowling the streets every night and believing every jerk who came her way and instead learned to have some respect for herself. Those are drops in the bucket. I saw many, many, many more.
The point I'm making is that God is not limited by the flaws and sins of the people who speak for Him or claim to speak for Him. I feel that message gets lost too often in the haste to promote the everything-anti-twi message.
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cman
Good point Linda, but twi also taught that some didn't have Christ.
Which is a guess at best and not true imo.
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waysider
Linda
I see your point.
This is what I was specifically referring to:
"..... he got witnessed to in a convenience store by a white girl. He came to a fellowship and after the teaching was over he raved and said he'd been looking for something like this his whole life. He went on to become a branch leader."
Joining a cult and subsequently becoming a leader in it is not the same thing as "deliverance".
Sorry I didn't make that clearer.
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OldSkool
Great post Kit. Thanks!
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Human without the bean
Thank you Kit. Well put.
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Kit Sober
Linda Zinn:
I have no dispute that many were healed and delivered. I was one of them. I had Del Duncan do "something" and I felt my brain come together and Jesus came to live in there. The tragedy of the selfishness I speak of is that the ministries of the tender people who loved God with all their heart soul mind and strength was twisted, perverted and aborted because from the top down was that cripplilng self-ishness which eliminated the Holy Spirit and His love and kindness.Only by eliminating the Holy Spirit and biblical accountability could twi become the residence of the horrors such as what GT speaks about in his heartbreaking story of his daughter's abuse and the attempted coverup here.
What massive impact in the world could the precious muic of Brxxn Bli$, T0m Lepin$ki, Skip Mesquite and so many others have made if they were under a ministry that was supported by that anchor of Jesus Christ in the harbor of God's love rather than vpw's perversion?
In my opinion "God gets the glory" when lives that are healed go on to live and grow with the Lord and make an impact in the world. That's what WOW meant to us at one time when we had dawn in our eyes. But that didn't happen, and I believe it's because of the selfishness of vpw from the top down dripping throughout the ministry.
To me the most vile stories of abuse are those of the "precious little ones" whose lives and ministries were destroyed. And there is no court of law that will defend this abuse except God Almighty's Judgment. I have one precious guy -- So most precious guy who went out WOW 5 times because he trusted this was the way to serve, and last I knew of him his brother had abandoned him, he never met a woman [in twi] who thought his tender heart for the Lord was a most precious commodity, so he had no family of his own, no career, and last I heard he was homeless and I haven't heard from him in years. He was one of those guys who delivered God's love, but he wasn't trained in how to live and his leadership abandoned him when he was in trouble. That's one precious heart ache for which I demand justice when I pray.
DavidWilkerson's "World Challenge" website (first was "Teen Challenge"), "Search" result of articles regarding David Wilkerson in "Charisma Magazine",Nicky Cruz' DW memorial on his website Nicky Cruz's memorial for David Wilkinson on his website included,
I look at Nicky Cruz' "NCO" website and think what Del Duncan's website could be if he had been allowed to move with that Holy Spirit by which he touched so many? What if we were able to stay with the people we loved so much and provide a ministry of "helps" to truly help guys like Del increase their ministry and faith like Nicky Cruz has done? What about Jimmy Doop? So many who tried to live their lives before the Lord but had their vision twisted and turned away from the Lord and onto twi? Even J0xx Lyxx. What if he had been taught from the get go to use his passion and humor for the Lord and had godly oversight and direction to help him walk with the Lord instead of all the bickering and backbiting selfishness of the "great I AM" and the hardening of heart that encouraged?
Our WOW service was highlighted by weekly reports of "hours spent witnessing," "hours worked" etc.Corps training was the same, plus that degree won't tread any water in any other ministry because of the perverseness of twi. What a waste of micromanaged time learning to focus on twi, not on the Lord. The impact that David WIlkerson's life had came by continuing to walk with the Lord and growing in faith with Him. David Wilkerson was beat up by those guys when he was witnessing and he still kept saying, "Jesus loves you, Nicky." And David Wilkerson continued to look for ways to show people that Jesus loved them.
In twi many also didso in "the early days'', but the longer we stayed in twi, the more twi had to do with our lives and the less the Holy Spirit did.
The offshoots of twi just don't have impact because of the inbred selfishness. The second generation twi ministries are still bound into the selfish self centered "I'm OK so what's the problem?"
Where is the sacrificial giving and heartrending missionary trips to ease the troubles of the natural disasters of Japan, Joplin Missouri, and the Mississippi flooding. Where are schools and orphanages created to save and inspire the Babe Ruth of tomorrow like Father Flanagan's Boy's Town?
I see no work to improve the lives of those less fortunate in twi related groups. Jesus fed the 5,000. But when does a twi or extwi ministry send missionaries to build wells for fresh water or goats or cows for increased quality of life or a sewing machine and lessons to help an impoverished mother provide for her family? Billy Graham's son Franklin does this. Catholics do this. And what does twi and extwi bunches do? They trivialize what other Christians are doing.
When discussing the natural disasters that strike, the great miracle is that, "Well it missed me, thank God." But what about those whose houses and business got wiped out? Where is the compassion and the works compassion should encourage?
David Wilkerson's passing has produced thousands of website postings so far, and Mother Teresa's life has generated untold declarations of thankfulness for her life. And Pope Paul II who I know was a most precious one to the Lord. . . The impact of people who twi trivialized is truly awesome when one looks outside of the fairytale "closed corporation" of a twi place.
Johniam it is pathetic that you cannot see the difference between the impact of a life lived before the Lord in integrity and a life of filth and hypocricy. I expect that Mother Teresa had a welcoming throng of billions when she arrived at heaven's door.
What about vpw's welcoming crowd at heaven's door? (if indeed he will be there which I would not bet on.) Do you imagine yourself leading a mighty army of people in heaven who rejoice at the name of vpw? Will your army consist of the babies he ordered to be aborted? The people whose lives he destroyed? Do you think even Craig Martindale now is happy for his twi years? How many of the denizens of the Greasespot Café would trade their twi years for years under a ministry that was run with integrity at the top down? I know I sure would if I could.
Johniam Can you not see that the testimony of these people you have met at the Greasespot Café is a witness to a filthy pervert who truly used God's name in vain?
The fact that twi legally holds the name "The Way" is no more a stamp of approval from the Lord than Barabbas' name, which means "The Son of the Father" identified the true "Son of the Father" that stood before Pilate more than 2,000 years ago. Although the crowd before Pilate called to release Barabbas, It was that precious Jesus, for whom they called, "crucify him crucify him" who was the "Son of the Father."
Truly God always has the last word on these things. I so yearn and hope that my words agree with His.
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Linda Z
Kit said:
Amen, sister. I remember thinking so often, "What happened? Why isn't it like it once was?" But I knew the answer. The twi organization was more important to its leaders than God and God's people, and when I woke up and saw that, I knew it was time to go.
Ego and lack of love are real buzz killers, aren't they?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Kit, Amen to your sermon/post.
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Kit Sober
sorry for being so long winded. It's just so nice to be able to speak. (Thanks, again,Pawtucket for this place in which we can speak our piece.)
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johniam
The best thing anyone can do while on earth is to get born again. We're not saved by works, we're saved by grace. We have incorruptible seed. Our eternal relationship with God is not based on "what have you done for God lately"? Helping people who are starving, storm damaged, sick, abused, etc. will do good for this life only. Even LCM used to say it was a good thing that someone was building hospitals, but it wasn't Jesus or his disciples.
You could make the argument that people need to be fed, clothed, loved, etc. before they can make a meaningful decision about God and Jesus Christ, but at least wows were honest. They were there to get people into pfal which would get them born again. That's a good thing. I make no apologies for what I believe.
quote: Sorry, John, I'm not seeing any "deliverance" in that.
You never will.
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cman
And you know how or when this happens?
Or even exclude some from something you know nothing about?
Like you are in charge of doing it yourself for yourself?
Some formula pulled out of a book?
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waysider
John
PFAL was a mishmash of plagiarized works. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation, based on faulty "research". In other words, the WOW program was nothing more than a sales campaign for a defective product. Again, that's not an opinion, it's a fact. In no way is that meant to denigrate participants of the program. We all got duped on one level or another.
If God is real, and everything His word says He is, He certainly wouldn't need a hodgepodge class like PFAL to accomplish salvation, now would He?.
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geisha779
I have to wonder what you do with verses like this ...He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me? declares the LORD. Jesus saying, I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink....I needed clothes and you clothed me.
Words straight from the mouth of God and it appears that is what we are judged by... There is not a great deal of hidden meaning in those words.....visit the prisoners....minister to the sick.
I have to say, my life would be a whole lot easier if I didn't take Jesus at face value. It is not works as much as a result of believing in and loving the one who saved us. Faith? A result of true faith?
So, when Jesus says...I was hungry and you didn't feed me....PFAL grads can say...yeah, sorry about that, but I browbeat 3 people into taking the class. I was gonna bring you that cup of water, but I took "Dealing with the Adversary" that weekend. I would have come to the prison, but that branch meeting ran long and I would have brought you a blanket, but my WOW coordinator wouldn't let me out past midnight. And Lord, they were running CF&S ....you didn't want to miss that wisdom did you?
Great post Kit....carry on sister!!
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Broken Arrow
In reference to Kit's post. I would just like to reiterate that in TWI Christ was absent. You find that written in some of their books not the least of which is the PFAL book. So I've developed the following formula:
Organization - presence of Christ (Messiah)= non-Christian organization.
Therefore since TWI by its own admission claims Christ was absent, The Way International (or The Way, Incorporated as it was formerly known) was not a Christian organization. If God moved, and He did at times, then it was in spite of the teachings, attitudes, and sins of TWI.
That is not to say that everyone in TWI was not a Christian, but the organization itself did not follow Him or recognize his lordship.
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Kit Sober
Here's a prayer request I received today
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johniam
quote: In addition, much of what was presented in PFAL, that many have considered to be true, has subsequently been proven to be misinformation,
Proven?????? LOL. That's like telling me that music has been proven to not exist...by deaf people, of course. Well, you have your "proof" and I have mine. I can SIT, and that's a fact. People who believe in evolution believe that their beliefs are "factual". More selective reasoning.
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Kit Sober
From your words appear the great "I AM" who needs to be appeased. What are you doing here?
From Watchman Nee there exudes a humility and a compassion and a longing as of the Lord to see people bound together as the one body of the Lord.
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Kit Sober
From your words appear the great "I AM" who needs to be appeased. What are you doing here?
From Watchman Nee there exudes a humility and a compassion and a longing as of the Lord to see people bound together as the one body of the Lord.
Here is a mother cat and her kitten. The natural and godly response is to heal and comfort. Your words, johniam, are lthrowing ice on godly conversations and killing kindness.
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waysider
John, you've been here for 11 years now. Are you expecting me to believe that in those 11 years you haven't realized most of Wierwille's work was plagiarized? There are whole sections of RTHST that are virtual word-for-word copies of previously existing material. Wierwille did not write it. He copied it and changed a few words, changed some of the phrasing around. That's plagiarism. There is 11 years of hard core, indisputable evidence of that here on the GSC threads. Your speaking in tongues has no relevance to that, nor does the topic of evolution.
If you want to continue discussing those topics, which are a diversion from the subject of the thread, I suggest you start your own thread and stop trying to derail this one.
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WordWolf
God's Word concerning how "minor" the subject of compassion is for the brethren....
James 2:15-20 (KJV)
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
=======================
James 2:15-20 (NASB)
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
========================
Surely the Lord who wanted some privacy, and instead healed the multitudes that followed him, and also fed them loaves
and fishes when all he wanted to do is get alone to pray after receiving devastating news,
surely he would recognize that there's more to "Christian service" than Romans 10:9,
and more to "serving" than teaching the Bible.
(Not that there's anything wrong with teaching the Bible, nor with wishing someone to go in peace,
but there's a time for each. Surely those who pride themselves on being CHRISTians, on being "of Christ",
can tell the difference between them.
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