More recently I've noticed TWI's functioning being more reclusive. They have chased out over 90% of their people with heavy-handed oppressive leadership tactics, and perform this evil behind closed doors so they can polish the public image.
The Amish live in colonies trying to preserve a time past - in the 1800's. They have their values. They call outsiders "the English" - a derogatory cultic term. They shun members for violations. They basically function in their own seperate little society that is pretty far removed from the real world.
Is TWI really any different?
Yes.
You've pointed out quite a few similarities.
However, the Amish are VERY different in certain things.
A) They encourage their young to see the outside world and decide for themselves if they
prefer the world of the Amish. (They look around, and some leave and some stay.)
B) The Amish AVOID technology. twi is afraid of new technology, but uses outdated stuff
they understand just fine.
C) The Amish avoid violence or even the suggestion of violence. Harsh words are avoided.
twi people bluster and threaten violence as if self-control was evil.
D) The Amish work toward the GENERAL good. The whole community will work together to
raise a barn on a farm. In twi, all resources are bent towards helping twi and never
Can you really imagine anything like that happening at TWI, an organization with paranoid people touting guns so that they can shoot first; that bans, and emotionally and mentally massacres its own people; and spouts that there is no forgiveness without repentance (which is not in fact a Biblical concept).
More recently I've noticed TWI's functioning being more reclusive. They have chased out over 90% of their people with heavy-handed oppressive leadership tactics, and perform this evil behind closed doors so they can polish the public image.
The Amish live in colonies trying to preserve a time past - in the 1800's. They have their values. They call outsiders "the English" - a derogatory cultic term. They shun members for violations. They basically function in their own seperate little society that is pretty far removed from the real world.
Is TWI really any different?
Yes......different as day and night.
The Amish desire to retain their integrity, heritage, parental values, work ethic, quality workmanship, and church/community involvement for the betterment of society.
In contrast, twi is deceptively engaged in recruiting allegiance/money TO their organization, dismantling family/church and community values, transforming one's individuality towards the chains of groupthink and groupwalk......in the end, its a destruction similar to "steal, kill, and destroy."
I've interacted with quite a few Amish folks over the years. Without getting into anything too specific, I have to say that the Amish lifestyle is probably not like what your perception might be if it's based on what you've seen and read in the news media.
'nother words----Things ain't always what they 'ppear to be.
edit: Would you say The Way: Living in Love is a fair representation of life at Int.HQ?
Good discussion. Of course any discourse on "like" is a compare and contrast exercise - there will be elements of similarity as well as differences. All make good points about both of those.
More recently it's just struck my fancy at the duality of the organization - the current teachings centering again on the outreach aspects - each one win one, yet the overall dynamics of the group being very seperatist.
I'm sure the case could be made that has been true all along, except for the "love bombing" of new members. Be very nice to the new people until they take the class, then gradually control more and more of their lives.
TWI leadership today seems content to sit around on their farm and take turns polishing their apple. The Amish are an industrious and productive people, producing some of the finest handcrafted furniture (and many other products) in the country. That's one difference.
When you talk to the Amish, they are very open and forthright and honest and will happily tell you what they believe, and why. No secret agendas. That's another difference.
I've lived near an Amish community, and I still like and respect the Amish people I've met over the years. There's another difference.
quote: edit: Would you say The Way: Living in Love is a fair representation of life at Int.HQ?
Not now, but in 1972 it was, or at least, it was a lot closer.
I've never much crossed paths with any Amish. Other than gawking at them in their electric buggies near Rome City. The Amish scenes in the movie 'Witness' (Harrison Ford, Danny Glover) portray them as passive, but not extreme. One Amish family has a booth at my area's farmer's market. We got so much rain that most of the sellers lost their tomato crop. Not the Amish family. They had plenty.
One similarity between Amish and twi is...remember how VP was always saying he wanted to be totally independent of the world? He once bragged that the ROA was done with no help from unbelievers. Stuff like that. The Amish seem to want as much of their culture as possible to be under their control with no outside influences whatsoever.
"He once bragged that the ROA was done with no help from unbelievers."
Not to go off on too far a tangent but I guess if we discount land, roads, auto-moe-beels, manufacturing, food, distribution, agriculture and of course, the cattle who were to become a "WOW burger", yeah, sorta.
I see the similarities to Amish and Wayfers, in that Wayland appears to be a representation of a past, with little new work changing or advancing their current state. If they still are saying they're a "research and teaching" "ministry" - where's the research work? Where's the teaching? and where's the ministry? From what I've heard they really don't do anything close to research at this point, and what they do to teach - bare minimum, and what they've always done, but less. There's no ministry there, if ministry is service. What's the service they provide, and how would it rate in quality and quantity?
That old saying sort of applies - they were born on 3rd base and act like they hit a triple. The current gang inherited certain things but haven't done much with it, it seems, except to continue messing it up. But they only have what they have - or more accurately have what's left that they haven't destroyed, lost of sold. Whether it's truly "3rd" base is a question too.
"Maintenance mode". So - look ahead 25 years.....what's the Way look like? What are they doing? All things being equal and they can keep the property up and the transfer of power continues as it has....it looks and acts and does pretty much the same. Thing. Because nothing enters or is allowed to enter into the mix that will cause change.
Amish work and build and grow within themselves and produce.
I don't know that the Way actually does that - they work, yes and are very slow to change anything at all - but they've been doing more selling (properties, stuff) then building or growing as an organization. Seems like. And I suspect they still buy most of their food, supplies and materials from the "outside" business world of providers.
As far as the Bible - not much work or growth going on there.
"He once bragged that the ROA was done with no help from unbelievers."
Amish work and build and grow within themselves and produce.
I don't know that the Way actually does that - they work, yes and are very slow to change anything at all - but they've been doing more selling (properties, stuff) then building or growing as an organization. Seems like. And I suspect they still buy most of their food, supplies and materials from the "outside" business world of providers.
I would say they are pretty well opposites on this point at least..
The Way has, at least since Rosie took over, been depending on outside contractors to do more and more of the work at the locales. Due to the loss of trained individuals, esp Corp, and especially the numbers dropping off of those willing to work at the locales, they have been increasing their outsourcing and have now become very dependent on those "unbelievers".
Not to go off on a tangent, but today's twi reminds me of that Clint Eastwood movie "Every which way but loose". There was a motorcycle gang in that movie, but at some point Clint put all their cycles in a dumpster/crusher of some kind and all their bikes were gone. Later in the movie the bikers bought themselves a big car, a Cadillac perhaps, that could hold all 9 of them (all 9?????? AUGHHHH!). They tried to look dignified, but they just weren't what they once were.
I would say they are pretty well opposites on this point at least..
The Way has, at least since Rosie took over, been depending on outside contractors to do more and more of the work at the locales. Due to the loss of trained individuals, esp Corp, and especially the numbers dropping off of those willing to work at the locales, they have been increasing their outsourcing and have now become very dependent on those "unbelievers".
Yes, this has changed significantly over the years. I was at HQ when outsourcing became popular. Of course they sell the idea to the staff as being the best, prevailing, etc; while ignoring the obvious that TrustAndObey pointed out - there aren't enough people around to do the work!
"He once bragged that the ROA was done with no help from unbelievers."
Not to go off on too far a tangent but I guess if we discount land, roads, auto-moe-beels, manufacturing, food, distribution, agriculture and of course, the cattle who were to become a "WOW burger", yeah, sorta.
Exactly.
The unbelievers provided no help......EXCEPT massive rental agreements of semi-trailer freezer units, refrigerator units, extra forklifts, some 45 golf carts, the big-top tent, porta-johns, sysco food distribution daily, etc.
In 1995, when martindale ordered all the corps to be full-time or dropped....hpounded the last nail in the roa coffin. From that point on, ALL corps were put on twi's payroll which meant that some 650 corps (and families) were traveling to Ohio EVERY YEAR ON TWI'S DIME. All expenses, all travel expenses, (motel, food, gas, etc) was expense incurred to "put on the roa." The corps was the backbone of the roa workload.
There was NO coincidence that the roa was cancelled thereafter!!!......with corps on payroll, twi CANCELLED the roa. No roa in 1996.
And......you thought the roa was about the people coming "home."
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WordWolf
Yes.
You've pointed out quite a few similarities.
However, the Amish are VERY different in certain things.
A) They encourage their young to see the outside world and decide for themselves if they
prefer the world of the Amish. (They look around, and some leave and some stay.)
B) The Amish AVOID technology. twi is afraid of new technology, but uses outdated stuff
they understand just fine.
C) The Amish avoid violence or even the suggestion of violence. Harsh words are avoided.
twi people bluster and threaten violence as if self-control was evil.
D) The Amish work toward the GENERAL good. The whole community will work together to
raise a barn on a farm. In twi, all resources are bent towards helping twi and never
the average member on the field.
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Twinky
The Amish reputedly have a very strong community spirit - they just don't want to go along with the modern world of the USA.
Their community values include compassion, tolerance and forgiveness. See the items below.
Shoot me first
Amish school shooting
Can you really imagine anything like that happening at TWI, an organization with paranoid people touting guns so that they can shoot first; that bans, and emotionally and mentally massacres its own people; and spouts that there is no forgiveness without repentance (which is not in fact a Biblical concept).
TWI isn't so much reclusive as secretive.
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skyrider
Yes......different as day and night.
The Amish desire to retain their integrity, heritage, parental values, work ethic, quality workmanship, and church/community involvement for the betterment of society.
In contrast, twi is deceptively engaged in recruiting allegiance/money TO their organization, dismantling family/church and community values, transforming one's individuality towards the chains of groupthink and groupwalk......in the end, its a destruction similar to "steal, kill, and destroy."
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waysider
I've interacted with quite a few Amish folks over the years. Without getting into anything too specific, I have to say that the Amish lifestyle is probably not like what your perception might be if it's based on what you've seen and read in the news media.
'nother words----Things ain't always what they 'ppear to be.
edit: Would you say The Way: Living in Love is a fair representation of life at Int.HQ?
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OldSkool
TWI is a preservation society. I assume this aspect of Amish and Wayfer is similar.
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chockfull
Good discussion. Of course any discourse on "like" is a compare and contrast exercise - there will be elements of similarity as well as differences. All make good points about both of those.
More recently it's just struck my fancy at the duality of the organization - the current teachings centering again on the outreach aspects - each one win one, yet the overall dynamics of the group being very seperatist.
I'm sure the case could be made that has been true all along, except for the "love bombing" of new members. Be very nice to the new people until they take the class, then gradually control more and more of their lives.
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waysider
Hey!
That sounds like something that could have been in the Witnessing and Undershepherding class.
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OperaBuff
TWI leadership today seems content to sit around on their farm and take turns polishing their apple. The Amish are an industrious and productive people, producing some of the finest handcrafted furniture (and many other products) in the country. That's one difference.
When you talk to the Amish, they are very open and forthright and honest and will happily tell you what they believe, and why. No secret agendas. That's another difference.
I've lived near an Amish community, and I still like and respect the Amish people I've met over the years. There's another difference.
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johniam
quote: edit: Would you say The Way: Living in Love is a fair representation of life at Int.HQ?
Not now, but in 1972 it was, or at least, it was a lot closer.
I've never much crossed paths with any Amish. Other than gawking at them in their electric buggies near Rome City. The Amish scenes in the movie 'Witness' (Harrison Ford, Danny Glover) portray them as passive, but not extreme. One Amish family has a booth at my area's farmer's market. We got so much rain that most of the sellers lost their tomato crop. Not the Amish family. They had plenty.
One similarity between Amish and twi is...remember how VP was always saying he wanted to be totally independent of the world? He once bragged that the ROA was done with no help from unbelievers. Stuff like that. The Amish seem to want as much of their culture as possible to be under their control with no outside influences whatsoever.
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socks
"He once bragged that the ROA was done with no help from unbelievers."
Not to go off on too far a tangent but I guess if we discount land, roads, auto-moe-beels, manufacturing, food, distribution, agriculture and of course, the cattle who were to become a "WOW burger", yeah, sorta.
I see the similarities to Amish and Wayfers, in that Wayland appears to be a representation of a past, with little new work changing or advancing their current state. If they still are saying they're a "research and teaching" "ministry" - where's the research work? Where's the teaching? and where's the ministry? From what I've heard they really don't do anything close to research at this point, and what they do to teach - bare minimum, and what they've always done, but less. There's no ministry there, if ministry is service. What's the service they provide, and how would it rate in quality and quantity?
That old saying sort of applies - they were born on 3rd base and act like they hit a triple. The current gang inherited certain things but haven't done much with it, it seems, except to continue messing it up. But they only have what they have - or more accurately have what's left that they haven't destroyed, lost of sold. Whether it's truly "3rd" base is a question too.
"Maintenance mode". So - look ahead 25 years.....what's the Way look like? What are they doing? All things being equal and they can keep the property up and the transfer of power continues as it has....it looks and acts and does pretty much the same. Thing. Because nothing enters or is allowed to enter into the mix that will cause change.
Amish work and build and grow within themselves and produce.
I don't know that the Way actually does that - they work, yes and are very slow to change anything at all - but they've been doing more selling (properties, stuff) then building or growing as an organization. Seems like. And I suspect they still buy most of their food, supplies and materials from the "outside" business world of providers.
As far as the Bible - not much work or growth going on there.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Amish men grow beards but no moustaches...
...Rosie has a moustache but no beard...
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TrustAndObey
I would say they are pretty well opposites on this point at least..
The Way has, at least since Rosie took over, been depending on outside contractors to do more and more of the work at the locales. Due to the loss of trained individuals, esp Corp, and especially the numbers dropping off of those willing to work at the locales, they have been increasing their outsourcing and have now become very dependent on those "unbelievers".
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johniam
Not to go off on a tangent, but today's twi reminds me of that Clint Eastwood movie "Every which way but loose". There was a motorcycle gang in that movie, but at some point Clint put all their cycles in a dumpster/crusher of some kind and all their bikes were gone. Later in the movie the bikers bought themselves a big car, a Cadillac perhaps, that could hold all 9 of them (all 9?????? AUGHHHH!). They tried to look dignified, but they just weren't what they once were.
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OldSkool
Yes, this has changed significantly over the years. I was at HQ when outsourcing became popular. Of course they sell the idea to the staff as being the best, prevailing, etc; while ignoring the obvious that TrustAndObey pointed out - there aren't enough people around to do the work!
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skyrider
Exactly.
The unbelievers provided no help......EXCEPT massive rental agreements of semi-trailer freezer units, refrigerator units, extra forklifts, some 45 golf carts, the big-top tent, porta-johns, sysco food distribution daily, etc.
In 1995, when martindale ordered all the corps to be full-time or dropped....hpounded the last nail in the roa coffin. From that point on, ALL corps were put on twi's payroll which meant that some 650 corps (and families) were traveling to Ohio EVERY YEAR ON TWI'S DIME. All expenses, all travel expenses, (motel, food, gas, etc) was expense incurred to "put on the roa." The corps was the backbone of the roa workload.
There was NO coincidence that the roa was cancelled thereafter!!!......with corps on payroll, twi CANCELLED the roa. No roa in 1996.
And......you thought the roa was about the people coming "home."
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waysider
"No Man is an Island."
No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.
-- John Donne
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lindyhopper
They are similar in that you won't find a bright bulb in the lot of them.
*zing*
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