It was written in 1972 by a woman named Elena Whiteside. She spent a day driving around places with Dr. Wierwille and she asked him questions as they rode and it paints a nice picture of twi paradise. Even those who left are treated kindly. Both Waysider and Wordwolf have referred to it before. Perhaps they still have their copies of it. I would think you could get it on Amazon or Ebay, but I don't know.
I have a copy here in front of me.
First...and you may have heard me say this before....Wierwille was not a "Dr."
Yes, "it paints a nice picture of TWI paradise"... a place that existed only in the minds of those who have chosen to romanticize what never was.
It's a veritable Camelot tale for the 20th century and beyond.
Sowie. She road around with Wierwille. He wasn't a Doctor doncha know.
I have about three copies of the book in possession of a local offshoot which "saved" them from going to Ebay. Email me, and perhaps I can give you the names of those who were has in it's "possession".
As I stated, I do have the book. Feel free to ask anything regarding its specific content. I don't have a scanner but, I will type the text verbatim if requested. (Not the entire book, of course)
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse - Recognizing & Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church
by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen
I actually would recommend giving this to someone in the Way. It's a story of those two authors fighting that in a startup church, and the scriptures they uncovered, the perspectives they developed, and the truths they learned. It never mentions cults, and certainly doesn't directly target anything in the Way. But for people who respect scripture, it helps you develop a perspective of looking for characteristics described in the Bible. And where someone sees those can be eye opening.
Thanks for the book..... My wife (who was in The Way) said it sounded like a good book to give along side with a book like Crazy Love by Francis Chan.
I have had people suggest to me reading their WAY books and I have read the book Jesus Christ is NOT God, some of the Promised Seed Book and some of the foundational class stuff. I am sure that they would not read something as direct written to people in The Way as Jesus Christ IS God book. So I was wondering if there was a better option for further dialogue.
I know it is a challenge for any person to read something other than what they believe in. Right or Wrong. It seems to me that once you open that door it seems the flood gates of reasons in terms of using critical thinking seems to click on.
Thanks for the book..... My wife (who was in The Way) said it sounded like a good book to give along side with a book like Crazy Love by Francis Chan.
I have had people suggest to me reading their WAY books and I have read the book Jesus Christ is NOT God, some of the Promised Seed Book and some of the foundational class stuff. I am sure that they would not read something as direct written to people in The Way as Jesus Christ IS God book. So I was wondering if there was a better option for further dialogue.
I know it is a challenge for any person to read something other than what they believe in. Right or Wrong. It seems to me that once you open that door it seems the flood gates of reasons in terms of using critical thinking seems to click on.
Thanks for the help
Nate
Good for you, Nate. Sounds like your wife is a lucky lady, to have you around trying to help like this.
In the years after I left TWI, my interests turned to classic literature. For reasons I still can't quite explain, I started reading the Russian greats, perhaps because their relentless morbidity matched my mood at the time. Death and sadness and the bleak human condition consoled me. Turgenev in particular provided great solace, I practically inhaled his novel Fathers and Sons.
It's difficult for me to read a book someone gives me unless I already have a desire to read it. So just giving a book out of the blue may be a waste of your time. You might do better by listening to the person talk, see if they let slip a clue about their interests, and then get them reading something, anything, that will engage their interests constructively.
I too have a copy of Elena Whiteside's The Way Living with Love, and I'm surprised to learn in this thread that TWI today doesn't want their people to read it anymore. Why, for heaven's sake? Elena plants her journalistic lips firmly on VP's backside and then wrote the entire book from that perspective. What on earth could be considered dangerous about that to TWI today? I'm looking at the back dust jacket flap, where they printed a brief bio of Whiteside. She was born in the former USSR. Interesting. She wrote Living with Love at approximately the fifth-grader level; looking at it now, it's all quite childish.
I too have a copy of Elena Whiteside's The Way Living with Love, and I'm surprised to learn in this thread that TWI today doesn't want their people to read it anymore. Why, for heaven's sake?
One reason is that many of us mentioned by name in the book no longer "stand with" TWI, and in fact some of us speak out against it (for instance, me). It is a work of propaganda, as you describe, and it makes me sick that I am in it. Boy, how things in our youth come back to haunt us...
Cheers!
Charlene Lamy Edge (part of the ECU group of fanatics written about in the TWLIL)
I think another reason they do not promote TWLIL any more is because in comparison today's TWI is stiff, stodgy, boring, and extremely yawn-inducing. The same sorry teachings served in the same monotone way every fellowship, every Sunday Service... Makes me bored just thinking about it. If the Spirit of God ever moved in TWI it long ago was squeezed out by the overcontrolling hag that runs the place. Anything spontaneous has long ago been removed from TWI. They have planned God-inspired action right out of day to day life, and if you deviate from your word for word written out teaching - beware the wrath of Rosie! Not exactly a shining comparison to the propaganda of "Living in Love" where everything is exciting. Not to mention most of those people are gone as pen mentioned abI've.
Engaging people one on one in conversation about things that matter to them is a good way to address concerns about the Way Nash and it's practices.
The entire topic of Jesus Christ's nature, being "God" and all of that is such a brain freeze for most people that they generally just accept it. With or without VPW's book JCING it's a very good idea to revisit the topic of who we think Jesus Christ "is" and why. I don't believe that JC Is God, as a matter of fact. Personally, historically, doctrinally, my understanding is very clear on that. I don't agree with all of the contentions in that book however and don't think it covers the Bible's record of who Jesus Christ was and is sufficiently. Who He IS is different than who He is NOT.
Wayfers of old and new will say "well, when did YOU suddenly get so smart???" as if making such statements indicates a superior level of intelligence. Everyone else will just want to get me reprocessed and re saved.
It's been over 40 years since I first heard that teaching and I've had at least 30 or so to continue to read, study, pray and continue to learn. Wayfers read the same books over and over. Wayfers particularly have a lack of respect for others that elevates what they "know" over everyone else. The whole history of the Way's teaching on JCING is one of disdain for the "idolatry" of others, yet most who rely on that book simply don't know the topic well enough to come to those conclusions.
There is no more important thing in Christianity than who JC is. It's a vital topic to engage anyone on, regardless.
Until today, I hadn't looked at this Whiteside book in decades. I just noticed that the dust jacket has "living with love" printed in the title, but the book itself has "living in love" as the title, printed on the front board and within. I should demand my money back for the misprint.
(actually, as it happens, i see my old wow coordinator's name written on the front flyleaf, apparently i wound up with his book somehow, think he wants it back? i'm not going to search him out for fear he'll wag his way wow wiener at me again...)
Engaging people one on one in conversation about things that matter to them is a good way to address concerns about the Way Nash and it's practices.
The entire topic of Jesus Christ's nature, being "God" and all of that is such a brain freeze for most people that they generally just accept it. With or without VPW's book JCING it's a very good idea to revisit the topic of who we think Jesus Christ "is" and why. I don't believe that JC Is God, as a matter of fact. Personally, historically, doctrinally, my understanding is very clear on that. I don't agree with all of the contentions in that book however and don't think it covers the Bible's record of who Jesus Christ was and is sufficiently. Who He IS is different than who He is NOT.
Wayfers of old and new will say "well, when did YOU suddenly get so smart???" as if making such statements indicates a superior level of intelligence. Everyone else will just want to get me reprocessed and re saved.
It's been over 40 years since I first heard that teaching and I've had at least 30 or so to continue to read, study, pray and continue to learn. Wayfers read the same books over and over. Wayfers particularly have a lack of respect for others that elevates what they "know" over everyone else. The whole history of the Way's teaching on JCING is one of disdain for the "idolatry" of others, yet most who rely on that book simply don't know the topic well enough to come to those conclusions.
There is no more important thing in Christianity than who JC is. It's a vital topic to engage anyone on, regardless.
When I first read the book JC is not God I was questioning my own beliefs. I just didn't stop their in my search. I told my wife that in Christianity there always an opposing book. So I took my hunt to finding that book and I found it on Amazon.com. The book Jesus Christ is God book covers a lot more than just the Deity of Christ. It talks about Weirwilles scrupulous college past and claims and sources. He even has a section over the Law of Believing. In sort to come to the truth one must look at both sides. In order to come to my conclusion I didn't stop there. I started to study koine greek and learn it in its original tong as I am continuing to do till this day. I have found that there are a lot of fundamental errors in the book concerning contextualization, greek language, definitions, greek grammar, he didn't mention all of the church fathers (Epistles of those right after the apostles) nor did he quote them honestly. It has been a wile since I have done a study on it. But I don't think this forum is about doctrine. So I will leave it at that.
In my pursuits I have learned and found a lot of information that the general church public (including The Way) is ignorant of. It is just that and there are many reasons for that. The Way does a good Job at ummmm pointing that fact out. Although that is the hook I think. This has been my experience when researching and questioning my own presuppositions that I find out either A I am wrong or B I am now more sure of what I believe. To go to your comment on why people freeze I think it is ignorance or going on what other people tell them. People become angry when they don't have an answer it seems (happens to me). At some level everyone is guilty of that (including me). I have friends of other faiths and denominations that we dialogue and debate over our differences. It seems though you can't do that with the people in The Way.
I tell people if you really care about someone you will invest in their religion no matter how much you disagree with them. Not for trying to convert them but because you care about them.
I am newly married to my wife in a general since of 3 years. This Way thing is new to me. In my discussions with the family it becomes quite frustrating and when cornered many times they just tell me to read a book. It seems like they never ever ventured out to understand why the other person believes differently. They just go into auto mode. I just wanted to know if there was a book that they would be open to read that would kinda nudge them out of their one track its what VPW says. Some people here gave some great advise on some books. I am going to look into them and possibly read some of them once I get over my other books lol.
Two particular items in your post caught my attention
First:
.... I don't think this forum is about doctrine. So I will leave it at that.
If you look toward the bottom of the page, you will find a doctrinal forum, if that sort of thing interests you.
Second:
...I have friends of other faiths and denominations that we dialogue and debate over our differences. It seems though you can't do that with the people in The Way.
That may be because The Way very specifically teaches people to resist the temptation of considering opposing viewpoints. In session seven of Power For Abundant Living, Wierwille uses the example of Eve and the serpent to "demonstrate" a five step system that the serpent used to trick Eve. Step one was that she "considered" what the serpent said. Wierwille goes on to say you must never "consider". Instead, his admonition was..."Having done all, STAND!" In other words, stubornly resist giving thoughtful consideration to other opinions. In fact, the are even two separate, three session classes that deal with the issue called Dealing With The Adversary and The Renewed Mind.
Two particular items in your post caught my attention
First:
.... I don't think this forum is about doctrine. So I will leave it at that.
If you look toward the bottom of the page, you will find a doctrinal forum, if that sort of thing interests you.
Second:
...I have friends of other faiths and denominations that we dialogue and debate over our differences. It seems though you can't do that with the people in The Way.
That may be because The Way very specifically teaches people to resist the temptation of considering opposing viewpoints. In session seven of Power For Abundant Living, Wierwille uses the example of Eve and the serpent to "demonstrate" a five step system that the serpent used to trick Eve. Step one was that she "considered" what the serpent said. Wierwille goes on to say you must never "consider". Instead, his admonition was..."Having done all, STAND!" In other words, stubornly resist giving thoughtful consideration to other opinions. In fact, the are even two separate, three session classes that deal with the issue called Dealing With The Adversary and The Renewed Mind.
My wife has those red book binders. Would what you said be in those red binders? That makes total since to why they are so resistant to listening to someone else even if they agree with them. My eyes have been opened!
Sounds like a great way to keep someone in the dark.
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waysider
I have a copy here in front of me.
First...and you may have heard me say this before....Wierwille was not a "Dr."
Yes, "it paints a nice picture of TWI paradise"... a place that existed only in the minds of those who have chosen to romanticize what never was.
It's a veritable Camelot tale for the 20th century and beyond.
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Ham
Sowie. She road around with Wierwille. He wasn't a Doctor doncha know.
I have about three copies of the book in possession of a local offshoot which "saved" them from going to Ebay. Email me, and perhaps I can give you the names of those who were has in it's "possession".
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waysider
I spent 2 weeks there in the summer of 1973. It was, perhaps, the most depressing 2 consecutive weeks I've ever spent in the last 61 years.
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Ham
Johniam. I hope you aren't the same John (Iam?) who resides over these old relics..
Your wife does not have the same screen name as that in reality
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waysider
As I stated, I do have the book. Feel free to ask anything regarding its specific content. I don't have a scanner but, I will type the text verbatim if requested. (Not the entire book, of course)
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waysider
Now that I think of it, R. Crumb's The Book of Genesis might be an enlightening read, as well.
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Naten00
Thanks for the book..... My wife (who was in The Way) said it sounded like a good book to give along side with a book like Crazy Love by Francis Chan.
I have had people suggest to me reading their WAY books and I have read the book Jesus Christ is NOT God, some of the Promised Seed Book and some of the foundational class stuff. I am sure that they would not read something as direct written to people in The Way as Jesus Christ IS God book. So I was wondering if there was a better option for further dialogue.
I know it is a challenge for any person to read something other than what they believe in. Right or Wrong. It seems to me that once you open that door it seems the flood gates of reasons in terms of using critical thinking seems to click on.
Thanks for the help
Nate
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OperaBuff
Good for you, Nate. Sounds like your wife is a lucky lady, to have you around trying to help like this.
In the years after I left TWI, my interests turned to classic literature. For reasons I still can't quite explain, I started reading the Russian greats, perhaps because their relentless morbidity matched my mood at the time. Death and sadness and the bleak human condition consoled me. Turgenev in particular provided great solace, I practically inhaled his novel Fathers and Sons.
It's difficult for me to read a book someone gives me unless I already have a desire to read it. So just giving a book out of the blue may be a waste of your time. You might do better by listening to the person talk, see if they let slip a clue about their interests, and then get them reading something, anything, that will engage their interests constructively.
I too have a copy of Elena Whiteside's The Way Living with Love, and I'm surprised to learn in this thread that TWI today doesn't want their people to read it anymore. Why, for heaven's sake? Elena plants her journalistic lips firmly on VP's backside and then wrote the entire book from that perspective. What on earth could be considered dangerous about that to TWI today? I'm looking at the back dust jacket flap, where they printed a brief bio of Whiteside. She was born in the former USSR. Interesting. She wrote Living with Love at approximately the fifth-grader level; looking at it now, it's all quite childish.
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penworks
One reason is that many of us mentioned by name in the book no longer "stand with" TWI, and in fact some of us speak out against it (for instance, me). It is a work of propaganda, as you describe, and it makes me sick that I am in it. Boy, how things in our youth come back to haunt us...
Cheers!
Charlene Lamy Edge (part of the ECU group of fanatics written about in the TWLIL)
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JavaJane
I think another reason they do not promote TWLIL any more is because in comparison today's TWI is stiff, stodgy, boring, and extremely yawn-inducing. The same sorry teachings served in the same monotone way every fellowship, every Sunday Service... Makes me bored just thinking about it. If the Spirit of God ever moved in TWI it long ago was squeezed out by the overcontrolling hag that runs the place. Anything spontaneous has long ago been removed from TWI. They have planned God-inspired action right out of day to day life, and if you deviate from your word for word written out teaching - beware the wrath of Rosie! Not exactly a shining comparison to the propaganda of "Living in Love" where everything is exciting. Not to mention most of those people are gone as pen mentioned abI've.
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socks
Engaging people one on one in conversation about things that matter to them is a good way to address concerns about the Way Nash and it's practices.
The entire topic of Jesus Christ's nature, being "God" and all of that is such a brain freeze for most people that they generally just accept it. With or without VPW's book JCING it's a very good idea to revisit the topic of who we think Jesus Christ "is" and why. I don't believe that JC Is God, as a matter of fact. Personally, historically, doctrinally, my understanding is very clear on that. I don't agree with all of the contentions in that book however and don't think it covers the Bible's record of who Jesus Christ was and is sufficiently. Who He IS is different than who He is NOT.
Wayfers of old and new will say "well, when did YOU suddenly get so smart???" as if making such statements indicates a superior level of intelligence. Everyone else will just want to get me reprocessed and re saved.
It's been over 40 years since I first heard that teaching and I've had at least 30 or so to continue to read, study, pray and continue to learn. Wayfers read the same books over and over. Wayfers particularly have a lack of respect for others that elevates what they "know" over everyone else. The whole history of the Way's teaching on JCING is one of disdain for the "idolatry" of others, yet most who rely on that book simply don't know the topic well enough to come to those conclusions.
There is no more important thing in Christianity than who JC is. It's a vital topic to engage anyone on, regardless.
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OperaBuff
Until today, I hadn't looked at this Whiteside book in decades. I just noticed that the dust jacket has "living with love" printed in the title, but the book itself has "living in love" as the title, printed on the front board and within. I should demand my money back for the misprint.
(actually, as it happens, i see my old wow coordinator's name written on the front flyleaf, apparently i wound up with his book somehow, think he wants it back? i'm not going to search him out for fear he'll wag his way wow wiener at me again...)
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Naten00
When I first read the book JC is not God I was questioning my own beliefs. I just didn't stop their in my search. I told my wife that in Christianity there always an opposing book. So I took my hunt to finding that book and I found it on Amazon.com. The book Jesus Christ is God book covers a lot more than just the Deity of Christ. It talks about Weirwilles scrupulous college past and claims and sources. He even has a section over the Law of Believing. In sort to come to the truth one must look at both sides. In order to come to my conclusion I didn't stop there. I started to study koine greek and learn it in its original tong as I am continuing to do till this day. I have found that there are a lot of fundamental errors in the book concerning contextualization, greek language, definitions, greek grammar, he didn't mention all of the church fathers (Epistles of those right after the apostles) nor did he quote them honestly. It has been a wile since I have done a study on it. But I don't think this forum is about doctrine. So I will leave it at that.
In my pursuits I have learned and found a lot of information that the general church public (including The Way) is ignorant of. It is just that and there are many reasons for that. The Way does a good Job at ummmm pointing that fact out. Although that is the hook I think. This has been my experience when researching and questioning my own presuppositions that I find out either A I am wrong or B I am now more sure of what I believe. To go to your comment on why people freeze I think it is ignorance or going on what other people tell them. People become angry when they don't have an answer it seems (happens to me). At some level everyone is guilty of that (including me). I have friends of other faiths and denominations that we dialogue and debate over our differences. It seems though you can't do that with the people in The Way.
I tell people if you really care about someone you will invest in their religion no matter how much you disagree with them. Not for trying to convert them but because you care about them.
I am newly married to my wife in a general since of 3 years. This Way thing is new to me. In my discussions with the family it becomes quite frustrating and when cornered many times they just tell me to read a book. It seems like they never ever ventured out to understand why the other person believes differently. They just go into auto mode. I just wanted to know if there was a book that they would be open to read that would kinda nudge them out of their one track its what VPW says. Some people here gave some great advise on some books. I am going to look into them and possibly read some of them once I get over my other books lol.
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waysider
Two particular items in your post caught my attention
First:
.... I don't think this forum is about doctrine. So I will leave it at that.
If you look toward the bottom of the page, you will find a doctrinal forum, if that sort of thing interests you.
Second:
...I have friends of other faiths and denominations that we dialogue and debate over our differences. It seems though you can't do that with the people in The Way.
That may be because The Way very specifically teaches people to resist the temptation of considering opposing viewpoints. In session seven of Power For Abundant Living, Wierwille uses the example of Eve and the serpent to "demonstrate" a five step system that the serpent used to trick Eve. Step one was that she "considered" what the serpent said. Wierwille goes on to say you must never "consider". Instead, his admonition was..."Having done all, STAND!" In other words, stubornly resist giving thoughtful consideration to other opinions. In fact, the are even two separate, three session classes that deal with the issue called Dealing With The Adversary and The Renewed Mind.
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excathedra
i don't know what to tell you people when it comes to trinity etc
i believe i got born again in the catholic church
not sure what i really thought at the time
just knew jesus christ was my lord and i always prayed to him at the altar and to god
i even remember at about 7 years old, saying something like, "jesus - god -- whoever you are -- help me"
and he did
so i'm happy
books about loving yourself are always nice :) mwah
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waysider
An all-time best seller
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Naten00
My wife has those red book binders. Would what you said be in those red binders? That makes total since to why they are so resistant to listening to someone else even if they agree with them. My eyes have been opened!
Sounds like a great way to keep someone in the dark.
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WordWolf
When it comes to "the way:living in love",
I recommend the thread that discussed it in detail.
That's "the way:living in wonderland."
(There's also a thread, "vp and me in wonderland",
which discusses lcm's behind-the-scenes look and shows what he interpreted
as deep spiritual meaning was a lot of pettiness.
When it comes to twi,
if the person is already questioning twi because they're living a miserable life,
then any sensible book is good.
If the person is in full-on denial mode, no book will be opened, and any reading
will just be a narrow cherry-picking, for excuses to dismiss the entire book.
(We still get posters and readers who do that to this day,
only some of whom are still in twi.)
As for good books for any Christian, a sensible book I'd recommend is
"How We Got the Bible", by Neil R. Lightfoot.
It's fairly basic, it's easy-to-read, and it's got more useful information
than just about ANY current innie has on the subject
(and more than most people who still revere vpw.)
I'd recommend it as a good STARTING POINT on its topics,
and a handy reference for any Christian.
In fact, I'd consider it mandatory reading for any Christian who actually cares
what the Bible says.
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