Zero tolerance for child abusers. Zero tolerance for those who willingly cover up for the abusers. It's that simple. Don't make it hard.
The PSU scandal describes an abuser who began in the physical realm. TWI describes an abuser who began in the spiritual realm. Both wilfully manipulated the innocent.
quote: Perhaps, those who scoff at twi's association towards evil.....might gain a deeper perspective of institutional failure by reading the following article.
I agree with Excie; as long as the catholic church still exists, twi won't even get on the radar. I bet Jerry Sandusky never got anyone born again.
Oh, now that justifies the sexual predator. Get them born again and then molest them. Yep - molest! That's exactly what the 50 something Wierwille did to the late teen and early twenty girls in his flock. But, hey, he got them born again.
Oh, now that justifies the sexual predator. Get them born again and then molest them. Yep - molest! That's exactly what the 50 something Wierwille did to the late teen and early twenty girls in his flock. But, hey, he got them born again.
Why bother, O.S.?
It's just a diversion to take the focus off of VPW's misbehavior.
Besides, from what I remember being taught, back in my Bible study days, "people" can't get "people" born-again, anyhow.
I agree with Excie; as long as the catholic church still exists, twi won't even get on the radar. I bet Jerry Sandusky never got anyone born again.
johniam,
That is absolutely not what excie is saying.
It has nothing to do with the greatness or insignificance of the organization or not. Is a sin less a sin because it was done in small church rather that a large one? Is a sin less a sin because because it was done by a believer rather than an unbeliever?
Whether someone is raped or molested by a priest, by Sandusky, by uncle harry or daddy or by vp, is the damage to that persons body and soul any less?
Who will God hate more, a 'natural man' molesting someone, or someone who is proclaiming himself to be god's personal representative who is molesting a child of God?
Matt 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Now, if that weren't enough in itself, way teachings were that if a man of god allowed the devil just a little opening into his life, it set things up for the devil to get bigger and more evil into the man-o-gods life.
That may just have something to do with why twi started out so sweet and became progressively more legalistic and evil as it matured into RosyLie's personal vision of twi.
Who will God hate more, a 'natural man' molesting someone, or someone who is proclaiming himself to be god's personal representative who is molesting a child of God?
not only that...he told them they were serving God by serving 'The Man of God'. Just makes me want to scream!
ohman the "catholic church" setting up a board for retraints or balances makes me throw up. that's because of personal experience
how sad that any of us in any church, school, daycamp, political org, university, cult, family, shrink's office, etc., etc., has to endure the abuse and assault of those they trust
i personally will carry damages from.... oh you get my gist
love,e
so much does not make it on the radar
but i am glad that we've come along way in the last 30 years or whatever
Oh, so as long as twi is on par with the catholic church......."twi won't even get on the radar."
Who's "radar" are you talking about here?
Who's "radar" is more important.....man's or God's?
As far as you are concerned, it's man's radar. I bet it burns you that Penn State gets all this publicity and twi doesn't. Waysider says when does evil become relevant? I don't know, but twis evil isn't as relevant as Penn State's.
The article is explicitly clear about the NEED for institutional "checks and balances" to uphold and maintain
accountability, transparency, and curtail abuse. Of course, most of us know how wierwille structured twi and
stacked his platform of power. Sheeesh, even run-of-the-mill churches had established church boards for more
accountability from their ministers.
Yeah, I suppose johniam's post has a point. Twi is just another sin-laden institution!
So you admit that you think the catholic church is a "sin laden organization"? All those millions of people put in the box of 'sin laden'? When are you going to stop obsessing about what you can't control and live your life?
So you admit that you think the catholic church is a "sin laden organization"? All those millions of people put in the box of 'sin laden'? When are you going to stop obsessing about what you can't control and live your life?
johniam......did you not read my post?
The point being.....institutions, universities, churches, political orgs, etc NEED "checks and balances"
for accountability, transparency, and to curtail abuse. Men in positions of power find ways to enforce more
power and leverage over people via hidden agendas and corruption. The ways of man are evil.
Wiewille structured twi WITHOUT any such accountability......no surprise there. He had worked in the church
structure before and was bristled by church board authority. Remember? Wierwille didn't like to be held
accountable to them. And, when the Van Wert church removed wierwille's name from the historical clergy registry,
it seemed to only fuel his distaste.
Yes, twi was sin-laden......just look at its founder.
The point being.....institutions, universities, churches, political orgs, etc NEED "checks and balances"
for accountability, transparency, and to curtail abuse. Men in positions of power find ways to enforce more
power and leverage over people via hidden agendas and corruption. The ways of man are evil.
My viewpoint lately is that is because institutions are set up by man not God, despite man's ego-laden opinions about how their particular institution is indeed God's main and only vehicle on earth to get His will done. That's man's delusion and hubris talking.
Christianity is not for institutions. It is for the common man. The poor, downtrodden, sin-laden common man. It is meant to be shared, for free. Not for a man to build up his own tower of Babel based upon it.
If Jesus came to virtually any institutional Christian organization based upon his name today like he did on earth as a simple man 2000 yrs ago, he would probably be cast out, much like he was by the Pharisees and rejected by Israel and their institutional religious systems and structure of the time.
So my conclusion is pay no attention to the false posturing of man and the institutions he sets up in God's name. We already have a mediator, and that's one for the common, the downtrodden, the broken. And he mediates for free. We don't need another mediator like RFR, the Pope, or any other form of local egotist leadership setting themselves up as a false mediator, interjecting themselves between man, Jesus Christ, and God. Where you see a religious hierarchy, there will be evil. Run the other way. Hang out with the sinners, like Jesus did, and keep your heart pure.
My viewpoint lately is that is because institutions are set up by man not God, despite man's ego-laden opinions about how their particular institution is indeed God's main and only vehicle on earth to get His will done. That's man's delusion and hubris talking.
Christianity is not for institutions. It is for the common man. The poor, downtrodden, sin-laden common man. It is meant to be shared, for free. Not for a man to build up his own tower of Babel based upon it.
If Jesus came to virtually any institutional Christian organization based upon his name today like he did on earth as a simple man 2000 yrs ago, he would probably be cast out, much like he was by the Pharisees and rejected by Israel and their institutional religious systems and structure of the time.
So my conclusion is pay no attention to the false posturing of man and the institutions he sets up in God's name. We already have a mediator, and that's one for the common, the downtrodden, the broken. And he mediates for free. We don't need another mediator like RFR, the Pope, or any other form of local egotist leadership setting themselves up as a false mediator, interjecting themselves between man, Jesus Christ, and God. Where you see a religious hierarchy, there will be evil. Run the other way. Hang out with the sinners, like Jesus did, and keep your heart pure.
Yep.....the egotistical, bureaucracy-laden pyramids of man are institutionalized evil built on the backs
of enslaved and common man. Pharisees, kings, and priests alike are rulers and enforcers of evil.
Simply put, the scriptures answered this when Jesus said......
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.
I attend two churches and know of goings-on in several others. They ALL have child protection policies and appointed Child Safety Officers who I'm quite sure would treat any allegations of abuse very seriously. I am confident that complaints would be listened to and acted upon.
... I find that very reassuring - coming from TWI, you can see why.
In addition, most business organisations seem to have such policies and in places I've worked, complaints are taken very seriously. Too seriously, sometimes.
It befits all of us to be watchful of abuse of any kind and to see that action is taken to prevent it. You and me. All of us.
If you see someone bullied in your workplace, what do you do?
Like those janitors - turn a blind eye? Or report it and stand fast in the face of perhaps some abuse yourself?
How confident do you feel about anti-abuse policies and procedures in your church, your workplace? If you're not happy about any procedures - or there isn't one - start working NOW to get better procedures and policies established.
Otherwise, you're passively assenting to the abuse. Which makes you an abuser.
The culture in your workplace - is partly about YOU in your workplace, your church, whatever. Help to make it a good one.
"If you see someone bullied in your workplace, what do you do?"
Unfortunately, in the U.S., there is not really much of anything you CAN do. Unlike the U.K.,it's perfectly legal here UNLESS you can prove that it's being driven by a bias against a protected class of worker or as retaliation against a whistleblower.. And, the burden of proof is on you, as the one being bullied. It's deeply entrenched in the American workplace, often encouraged by upper levels of management if it translates into (perceived) higher production levels or (perceived) profit increases. HERE is a link to a site that elaborates on the problem.
This post may seem off topic but I really don't think it is. Fear of retaliation is often what drives people to turn a blind eye. Without laws to hold retaliation in check, this sort of thing will never stop. We saw what happened in TWI when there was no protocol in place to deal with such things.
Waysider, the article you linked contained this sentence: "Every employer has an anti- harassment policy to comply with laws." And of course some groups are specially protected.
Yes, we have laws in the UK. Some better than others. Policies we must have. It's difficult to take a case to the Employment Tribunal, and stressful. Many prefer just to give up quietly and find other jobs, places to be.
It always takes people standing up to bullies, people promoting a culture of decency, to ensure that rights, policies, procedures, anti-discrimination, etc are carried out properly. And bullies ... bully. Intimidate. Question is: do you assert your rights, or support those who are asserting their rights? Or do you turn the other way - "not notice" that it's happening - for fear of consequences to yourself?
(FYI I've worked in several environments like this. It's really unpleasant. Made me very ill, in one place. But nothing you could actually put your finger on and say, it's unreasonable, as a single act. But cumulatively... I wussed out then, low level grumbling with all the other staff. But now? Maybe I'd deal with things differently. Or maybe not.)
Many people have a misconception of what constitutes harassment. It is NOT against the law to "harass" an employee, in the dictionary, semantic sense of the word. It can only be legally classified as harassment if it violates specific laws, like those that prohibit discrimination against a protected class or persons who expose unsafe and/or illegal activities. Compounding the issue, in all 50 of the United States, an employer can terminate you at any time, for any reason, so long as they don't overstep any legal restrictions (protected class, whistleblower, etc.). In fact, they really don't even need to have any reason at all. They could, theoretically, simply say, "I don't like you, you're fired" and there is nothing you can do about it, short of invoking some sort of pre-employment contract or something of that nature. That is why employers insist you sign an "at will" agreement before they will employ you.
What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? Well, we live in a culture where this sort of atmosphere has become the norm for many workplaces and organizations. People know that if they blow the whistle or simply speak up, retaliation is an almost certainty. The system discourages speaking out for what you know is right, especially if you are not 100% certain that your suspicions are accurate.
The linked article details a study that showed it to be virtually useless to confront the bully, go to their superior, go to HR, etc.
Businesses and organizations are simply not going to change because "it's the right thing to do". Until there are laws with some teeth in them, this attitude is going to fester in our culture and facilitate all sorts of heinous acts without recourse. We need to get to the very core of the issue and create an environment where people know they can do the right thing without being penalized.
...............................................
From the article that started this thread:
"The challenge of civilizations has been to set up institutional arrangements that take into account the human condition and channel it in ways that encourage the good and place a check on evil. What this means is that in our universities, in our churches, and in our political systems – in virtually every human institution – we need checks and balances."
i went to a church sunday for the first time in 22 or 23 years
it's called the grace church i think and every time i pass it i read their little billboard and it's always so nice
the church was tiny and ugly
the pastor was a young black/white man (kind of both)
the people there (20 or less) were: quite a few old folks, an asian couple (when she put her hand up during the singing, it was lovely, you could tell she was giving praise), a rough looking tatoo guy, and a little mix of everything else
it was so nice - i can't believe i went to church
they praised and thanked jesus every other second. you could tell they think jesus is god, but it took nothing away from their worship and love
they had a time where you could give praise and prayers. you would give a praise about something good in your life (there were a lot of those) and you could say a prayer out loud. after that the pastor reiterated everything, thanking god and praying to god
sweetest people i can't tell you
their singing was awful and loud and absolutely beautiful
"The Joe Paterno statue was removed Sunday morning from its pedestal outside Beaver Stadium, and it will be stored in an unnamed "secure location," Penn State president Rodney Erickson announced. Erickson also said the Paterno name will remain on the university's library.
Shortly before dawn in State College, Pa., a work crew installed chain-link fences to barricade access to Porter Road outside Beaver Stadium and covered the fence with a blue tarp.
The work crew then removed the 7-foot, 900-pound bronze statue by forklift and placed it into the lower level of the stadium. Erickson released his highly sensitive decision to the public at 7 a.m. ET Sunday."
Will twi ever remove the victor paul wierwille statue from their auditorium?
Of course not......the twi-public outcry has hardly moved in its intensity.
Twi-ers, splinter groups and many ex-ers are STILL indoctrinated in vpw-idolatry.
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excathedra
1st shift
2nd shift
3rd shift
4th shift
it happens everywhere -- in "the way" -- in the catholic church -- in families....
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OperaBuff
Zero tolerance for child abusers. Zero tolerance for those who willingly cover up for the abusers. It's that simple. Don't make it hard.
The PSU scandal describes an abuser who began in the physical realm. TWI describes an abuser who began in the spiritual realm. Both wilfully manipulated the innocent.
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johniam
quote: Perhaps, those who scoff at twi's association towards evil.....might gain a deeper perspective of institutional failure by reading the following article.
I agree with Excie; as long as the catholic church still exists, twi won't even get on the radar. I bet Jerry Sandusky never got anyone born again.
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waysider
non-sequitur
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skyrider
Oh, so as long as twi is on par with the catholic church......."twi won't even get on the radar."
Who's "radar" are you talking about here?
Who's "radar" is more important.....man's or God's?
The article is explicitly clear about the NEED for institutional "checks and balances" to uphold and maintain
accountability, transparency, and curtail abuse. Of course, most of us know how wierwille structured twi and
stacked his platform of power. Sheeesh, even run-of-the-mill churches had established church boards for more
accountability from their ministers.
Yeah, I suppose johniam's post has a point. Twi is just another sin-laden institution!
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waysider
Is there some sort of magical number at which evil becomes relevant?
I submit that even one victim should make it relevant.
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OldSkool
Oh, now that justifies the sexual predator. Get them born again and then molest them. Yep - molest! That's exactly what the 50 something Wierwille did to the late teen and early twenty girls in his flock. But, hey, he got them born again.
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waysider
Why bother, O.S.?
It's just a diversion to take the focus off of VPW's misbehavior.
Besides, from what I remember being taught, back in my Bible study days, "people" can't get "people" born-again, anyhow.
(That's supposed to be someone else's job.)
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dabobbada
johniam,
That is absolutely not what excie is saying.
It has nothing to do with the greatness or insignificance of the organization or not. Is a sin less a sin because it was done in small church rather that a large one? Is a sin less a sin because because it was done by a believer rather than an unbeliever?
Whether someone is raped or molested by a priest, by Sandusky, by uncle harry or daddy or by vp, is the damage to that persons body and soul any less?
Who will God hate more, a 'natural man' molesting someone, or someone who is proclaiming himself to be god's personal representative who is molesting a child of God?
Matt 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Now, if that weren't enough in itself, way teachings were that if a man of god allowed the devil just a little opening into his life, it set things up for the devil to get bigger and more evil into the man-o-gods life.
That may just have something to do with why twi started out so sweet and became progressively more legalistic and evil as it matured into RosyLie's personal vision of twi.
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Rejoice
not only that...he told them they were serving God by serving 'The Man of God'. Just makes me want to scream!
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excathedra
ohman the "catholic church" setting up a board for retraints or balances makes me throw up. that's because of personal experience
how sad that any of us in any church, school, daycamp, political org, university, cult, family, shrink's office, etc., etc., has to endure the abuse and assault of those they trust
i personally will carry damages from.... oh you get my gist
love,e
so much does not make it on the radar
but i am glad that we've come along way in the last 30 years or whatever
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Kit Sober
Thanks Skyrider for the link. Sounds like nice brain food. I signed up for their newsletter. Thanks, again.
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johniam
So you admit that you think the catholic church is a "sin laden organization"? All those millions of people put in the box of 'sin laden'? When are you going to stop obsessing about what you can't control and live your life?
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skyrider
johniam......did you not read my post?
The point being.....institutions, universities, churches, political orgs, etc NEED "checks and balances"
for accountability, transparency, and to curtail abuse. Men in positions of power find ways to enforce more
power and leverage over people via hidden agendas and corruption. The ways of man are evil.
Wiewille structured twi WITHOUT any such accountability......no surprise there. He had worked in the church
structure before and was bristled by church board authority. Remember? Wierwille didn't like to be held
accountable to them. And, when the Van Wert church removed wierwille's name from the historical clergy registry,
it seemed to only fuel his distaste.
Yes, twi was sin-laden......just look at its founder.
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OldSkool
That in itself is so revealing.
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chockfull
My viewpoint lately is that is because institutions are set up by man not God, despite man's ego-laden opinions about how their particular institution is indeed God's main and only vehicle on earth to get His will done. That's man's delusion and hubris talking.
Christianity is not for institutions. It is for the common man. The poor, downtrodden, sin-laden common man. It is meant to be shared, for free. Not for a man to build up his own tower of Babel based upon it.
If Jesus came to virtually any institutional Christian organization based upon his name today like he did on earth as a simple man 2000 yrs ago, he would probably be cast out, much like he was by the Pharisees and rejected by Israel and their institutional religious systems and structure of the time.
So my conclusion is pay no attention to the false posturing of man and the institutions he sets up in God's name. We already have a mediator, and that's one for the common, the downtrodden, the broken. And he mediates for free. We don't need another mediator like RFR, the Pope, or any other form of local egotist leadership setting themselves up as a false mediator, interjecting themselves between man, Jesus Christ, and God. Where you see a religious hierarchy, there will be evil. Run the other way. Hang out with the sinners, like Jesus did, and keep your heart pure.
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excathedra
what a nice thing to say dabbie doo and the rest of your post
you too opera buff
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skyrider
Yep.....the egotistical, bureaucracy-laden pyramids of man are institutionalized evil built on the backs
of enslaved and common man. Pharisees, kings, and priests alike are rulers and enforcers of evil.
Simply put, the scriptures answered this when Jesus said......
Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod.
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Twinky
I attend two churches and know of goings-on in several others. They ALL have child protection policies and appointed Child Safety Officers who I'm quite sure would treat any allegations of abuse very seriously. I am confident that complaints would be listened to and acted upon.
... I find that very reassuring - coming from TWI, you can see why.
In addition, most business organisations seem to have such policies and in places I've worked, complaints are taken very seriously. Too seriously, sometimes.
It befits all of us to be watchful of abuse of any kind and to see that action is taken to prevent it. You and me. All of us.
If you see someone bullied in your workplace, what do you do?
Like those janitors - turn a blind eye? Or report it and stand fast in the face of perhaps some abuse yourself?
How confident do you feel about anti-abuse policies and procedures in your church, your workplace? If you're not happy about any procedures - or there isn't one - start working NOW to get better procedures and policies established.
Otherwise, you're passively assenting to the abuse. Which makes you an abuser.
The culture in your workplace - is partly about YOU in your workplace, your church, whatever. Help to make it a good one.
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waysider
"If you see someone bullied in your workplace, what do you do?"
Unfortunately, in the U.S., there is not really much of anything you CAN do. Unlike the U.K.,it's perfectly legal here UNLESS you can prove that it's being driven by a bias against a protected class of worker or as retaliation against a whistleblower.. And, the burden of proof is on you, as the one being bullied. It's deeply entrenched in the American workplace, often encouraged by upper levels of management if it translates into (perceived) higher production levels or (perceived) profit increases. HERE is a link to a site that elaborates on the problem.
This post may seem off topic but I really don't think it is. Fear of retaliation is often what drives people to turn a blind eye. Without laws to hold retaliation in check, this sort of thing will never stop. We saw what happened in TWI when there was no protocol in place to deal with such things.
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Twinky
Waysider, the article you linked contained this sentence: "Every employer has an anti- harassment policy to comply with laws." And of course some groups are specially protected.
Yes, we have laws in the UK. Some better than others. Policies we must have. It's difficult to take a case to the Employment Tribunal, and stressful. Many prefer just to give up quietly and find other jobs, places to be.
It always takes people standing up to bullies, people promoting a culture of decency, to ensure that rights, policies, procedures, anti-discrimination, etc are carried out properly. And bullies ... bully. Intimidate. Question is: do you assert your rights, or support those who are asserting their rights? Or do you turn the other way - "not notice" that it's happening - for fear of consequences to yourself?
(FYI I've worked in several environments like this. It's really unpleasant. Made me very ill, in one place. But nothing you could actually put your finger on and say, it's unreasonable, as a single act. But cumulatively... I wussed out then, low level grumbling with all the other staff. But now? Maybe I'd deal with things differently. Or maybe not.)
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waysider
Many people have a misconception of what constitutes harassment. It is NOT against the law to "harass" an employee, in the dictionary, semantic sense of the word. It can only be legally classified as harassment if it violates specific laws, like those that prohibit discrimination against a protected class or persons who expose unsafe and/or illegal activities. Compounding the issue, in all 50 of the United States, an employer can terminate you at any time, for any reason, so long as they don't overstep any legal restrictions (protected class, whistleblower, etc.). In fact, they really don't even need to have any reason at all. They could, theoretically, simply say, "I don't like you, you're fired" and there is nothing you can do about it, short of invoking some sort of pre-employment contract or something of that nature. That is why employers insist you sign an "at will" agreement before they will employ you.
What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? Well, we live in a culture where this sort of atmosphere has become the norm for many workplaces and organizations. People know that if they blow the whistle or simply speak up, retaliation is an almost certainty. The system discourages speaking out for what you know is right, especially if you are not 100% certain that your suspicions are accurate.
The linked article details a study that showed it to be virtually useless to confront the bully, go to their superior, go to HR, etc.
Businesses and organizations are simply not going to change because "it's the right thing to do". Until there are laws with some teeth in them, this attitude is going to fester in our culture and facilitate all sorts of heinous acts without recourse. We need to get to the very core of the issue and create an environment where people know they can do the right thing without being penalized.
...............................................
From the article that started this thread:
"The challenge of civilizations has been to set up institutional arrangements that take into account the human condition and channel it in ways that encourage the good and place a check on evil. What this means is that in our universities, in our churches, and in our political systems – in virtually every human institution – we need checks and balances."
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excathedra
i went to a church sunday for the first time in 22 or 23 years
it's called the grace church i think and every time i pass it i read their little billboard and it's always so nice
the church was tiny and ugly
the pastor was a young black/white man (kind of both)
the people there (20 or less) were: quite a few old folks, an asian couple (when she put her hand up during the singing, it was lovely, you could tell she was giving praise), a rough looking tatoo guy, and a little mix of everything else
it was so nice - i can't believe i went to church
they praised and thanked jesus every other second. you could tell they think jesus is god, but it took nothing away from their worship and love
they had a time where you could give praise and prayers. you would give a praise about something good in your life (there were a lot of those) and you could say a prayer out loud. after that the pastor reiterated everything, thanking god and praying to god
sweetest people i can't tell you
their singing was awful and loud and absolutely beautiful
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skyrider
"The Joe Paterno statue was removed Sunday morning from its pedestal outside Beaver Stadium, and it will be stored in an unnamed "secure location," Penn State president Rodney Erickson announced. Erickson also said the Paterno name will remain on the university's library.
Shortly before dawn in State College, Pa., a work crew installed chain-link fences to barricade access to Porter Road outside Beaver Stadium and covered the fence with a blue tarp.
The work crew then removed the 7-foot, 900-pound bronze statue by forklift and placed it into the lower level of the stadium. Erickson released his highly sensitive decision to the public at 7 a.m. ET Sunday."
Will twi ever remove the victor paul wierwille statue from their auditorium?
Of course not......the twi-public outcry has hardly moved in its intensity.
Twi-ers, splinter groups and many ex-ers are STILL indoctrinated in vpw-idolatry.
<_<
.
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