"It's addressed (or not addressed) to me.">>>>>That was/is a huge get-out-of-jail ticket in TWI and it's derivative forms. You have to do at least 2 things to make that work. First, you have to accept dispensationalism. Second, you have to ignore contextual meaning whenever it interjects conflicting thought.
I remember, as a kid, we would take an ordinary pen and bet someone it could write any color.
"Make it write green", they would say. So, we would pick up the pen and, one by one, spell out the letters GREEN.
"17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
"18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
"19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
It may be technically accurate to say that Wierwille taught that "Jesus is not God," but that is not to say that what he did teach was correct. Wierwille was wrong about Jesus because he didn't go on and teach WHO JESUS IS. Jesus IS the Lord, and He IS the head of the Body. Jesus Christ IS the one and only Man of God of the world for this our day and time! .
By saying that no prophecy of the Old Testament or Gospels could be applied to "this wonderful administration of the grace of God", Wierwille cut the Church off from the crucifixion. The crucifixion took place in the Gospels! Wierwille was an enemy of the cross of Christ at a much deeper level than he even appeared. And so are the people who still believe him.
They begin by paying attention to earthly things, instead of heavenly. They become proud of things they ought to be ashamed of (and for some reason, Athletes of the Spirit pops up in my thinking here). They come to serve their own appetites the way they ought to serve God, and all their efforts result in utter worthlessness.
It may be technically accurate to say that Wierwille taught that "Jesus is not God," but that is not to say that what he did teach was correct. Wierwille was wrong about Jesus because he didn't go on and teach WHO JESUS IS. Jesus IS the Lord, and He IS the head of the Body. Jesus Christ IS the one and only Man of God of the world for this our day and time! .
By saying that no prophecy of the Old Testament or Gospels could be applied to "this wonderful administration of the grace of God", Wierwille cut the Church off from the crucifixion. The crucifixion took place in the Gospels! Wierwille was an enemy of the cross of Christ at a much deeper level than he even appeared. And so are the people who still believe him.
Steve, I lost sight of who Jesus is, overlooked him pretty much altogether, as I expect many if not most Wayfers did and some still do.
It's accepting the gift without any sense of what the cost of the gift was, or what its value is.
If you worked hard to buy a diamond necklace for someone as a gift, or for a new car, or for - anything expensive - an operation, say... Or even, if you gave a body part like a kidney to someone whose kidneys had failed...and that person just said, oh thanks, and walked away and never displayed the item but shoved it in the back of the sock drawer or never thought of you again...
I imagine if someone as a living donor gave you their kidney, or donated their loved deceased person's heart or lungs for a transplant, you'd be so grateful for the new life you'd received. So thankful for the gift, and so thankful for the donor's kindness and selflessness. And acknowledging the grief and loss that a deceased person's family may feel, in order that we, the donee, may get life anew.
We were taught to ignore the kidney donor, the donor of the deceased's healthy heart. We just took the parts and shrugged at the donor. Like it wasn't a choice, wasn't a real cost. How selfish can we get?
It may be technically accurate to say that Wierwille taught that "Jesus is not God," but that is not to say that what he did teach was correct. Wierwille was wrong about Jesus because he didn't go on and teach WHO JESUS IS. Jesus IS the Lord, and He IS the head of the Body. Jesus Christ IS the one and only Man of God of the world for this our day and time! .
I totally agree that VP taught people to have a Jesus Christ identity crisis. The trinity is too mystical and a relic of history. Most modern Christians say they believe it, but when talking details sure easily see the distinction between God and His Son Jesus.
VP singled out that doctrine, in a sense constructed a strawman argument, then drove a wedge between his followers and pretty much any mainstream church teaching the trinity with his book, teachings, and overall attitude. After a long exposure to VP's doctrine, the practical effect was that most ex-TWI members don't feel comfortable in a church where the trinity is accepted, which is pretty much most of them.
If that isn't being an enemy of Jesus Christ while proporting to teach the truth about him I don't know what is.
If that logic is too hard to follow, ask yourself this - what attitude do/did you have towards other Christians? A look down the nose at how stupid they are because they accept a relic doctrine? A "lesser" Christian? Someone "not in the household" thus uninformed and lesser of a Christian? I readily admit to all of those attitudes. I'm sure a TWI shill would say that's my problem not TWI's. You're right. It is. But when I trace it back to its roots it is TWI doctrine and attitude that instilled it into me.
Yes, sometimes we had an arrogant attitude toward other Christians that came back to bite us. I think just maybe some of those other Christians had not only arrogant, but venemous attitudes toward us as well.
The thing that really separated twi from mainstream Christianity was the concept that the written word of God has authority. Mainstream Christianity still just does not believe that. They take man made doctrines, like the trinity, and claim they are infallible. I hear that now, a church cannot be part of the National Council of Churches if they don't believe in the trinity.
Back in the day when twi was a "relevant cult" you could go to any Christian bookstore and go to the cult section and read the table of contents and pretty much all books on current cults had the Unification Church (moonies) and the Hare Krishnas as #1 and #2. The next 3 spots rotated from twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong, depending on which book you looked at. I'm told that Garner Ted Armstrong's group has changed their name and now professes to believe in the trinity. What a surprise!
But THAT is what made twi stand out. That's why we were ever called "cult". VPs morality or lack of it has nothing to do with this. It stands or falls on its own merit.
Yes, sometimes we had an arrogant attitude toward other Christians that came back to bite us. I think just maybe some of those other Christians had not only arrogant, but venemous attitudes toward us as well.
The thing that really separated twi from mainstream Christianity was the concept that the written word of God has authority. Mainstream Christianity still just does not believe that. They take man made doctrines, like the trinity, and claim they are infallible. I hear that now, a church cannot be part of the National Council of Churches if they don't believe in the trinity.
Back in the day when twi was a "relevant cult" you could go to any Christian bookstore and go to the cult section and read the table of contents and pretty much all books on current cults had the Unification Church (moonies) and the Hare Krishnas as #1 and #2. The next 3 spots rotated from twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong, depending on which book you looked at. I'm told that Garner Ted Armstrong's group has changed their name and now professes to believe in the trinity. What a surprise!
But THAT is what made twi stand out. That's why we were ever called "cult". VPs morality or lack of it has nothing to do with this. It stands or falls on its own merit.
John.....you STILL contend to spew twi's propagandist-version of relevance of the 70s and 80s.
For the record....
1) Wierwille did NOT corner the market of "the written word of God has authority."
2) The list of preachers and ministers heralding THE WRITTEN WORD is exhaustive.
3) The trinity doctrine in many churches has FAR LESS RELEVANCE than you spout over and over again.
4) Twi was not slated as a cult simply because of its non-trinity stance.
Generally, I refuse to contest your posts, because of your twisted pro-wierwille stance.
But today......just decided that your "facts" needed to be corrected.
Most people here know that I was corps, staff, clergy.
Besides.....I spent 10 days in a deprogramming episode.
The "cult" issue ran far, far broader than your assertion of the trinity.
Sleep deprivation, mind-control, isolation, restricted communication, etc. were factors
and concerns that were alarming parents, friends and family.
Yes, sometimes we had an arrogant attitude toward other Christians that came back to bite us. I think just maybe some of those other Christians had not only arrogant, but venemous attitudes toward us as well.
yes, they thought we were in a cult. perhaps they were right.
The thing that really separated twi from mainstream Christianity was the concept that the written word of God has authority. Mainstream Christianity still just does not believe that. They take man made doctrines, like the trinity, and claim they are infallible. I hear that now, a church cannot be part of the National Council of Churches if they don't believe in the trinity.
Totally untrue. Fundmentalist is a specific term that describes mainstream Christians that believe the written Word of God has authority. Fundamentalism spans denominations, and specifically describes only that belief. Regarding the trinity, yes that is a relic belief still accepted. And years after his death, VPW still has impact in keeping his followers separated out from the rest of mainstream Christianity over this. Is that uniting or dividing the body of Christ? That's what's measured on its own merit.
Back in the day when twi was a "relevant cult" you could go to any Christian bookstore and go to the cult section and read the table of contents and pretty much all books on current cults had the Unification Church (moonies) and the Hare Krishnas as #1 and #2. The next 3 spots rotated from twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong, depending on which book you looked at. I'm told that Garner Ted Armstrong's group has changed their name and now professes to believe in the trinity. What a surprise!
And now all that stuff is on the internet (i.e. in Wikipedia) and all over like this site.
But THAT is what made twi stand out. That's why we were ever called "cult". VPs morality or lack of it has nothing to do with this. It stands or falls on its own merit.
That sounds like something Rosalie would say. VP or any leaders' morality isn't the issue, the issue is the Word and whether you stand on it or not. So come on back to TWI and stand with us for the Word's sake.
johniam please point out to me the flaw in that viewpoint, and why you would not return to TWI.
"Sleep deprivation, mind-control, isolation, restricted communication, etc. were factors"
Absolutely! This is the sort of thing that may have been missed by believers who never moved outside the local level or maybe spent a hitch in a free-wheeling sort of W.O.W. family. But, these are, indeed , the sort of things that constitute cultic experience. Add to these a charismatic leader, proprietary knowledge and a sense of elitism and you have a recipe for trouble. Not every cult has every trait. In fact, a group can have these traits without any "religious" affiliation. I, too, can clearly remember Wierwille saying, "They consider us a cult because we don't believe that Jesus is God". He was wrong. People considered us a cult because we displayed the characteristics of a cult, not because of our stance on the Trinity..
One of the things I've had to come to grips with this past few years is the truth that God the Father and my Lord Jesus Christ don't give as much of a rat's a$$ about the doctrine of the trinity as Wierwille did.
Jesus Christ has been perfectly capable of functioning as head of his body for the past, what, nearly 2,000 years or so, whether people thought he was God or otherwise. God and Jesus each knows who He himself is, and they both know how to sort mail.
There seems to me to be only one incident where somebody supernatural stepped in to make sure a council decided doctrine a certain way, and that was when the Council of Chalcedon said that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. People don't realize that the alternative was for Jesus to be fully God and NOT fully man, which would have made him nothing more than a sock-puppet of God.
I had a friend up on campus a few years back who came from Russia. We did not come from similar backgrounds, but we used to have wonderful times talking about God and the Lord, because we both knew we were dealing with the same guys. She told me one time she had been begging for the Lord to explain the trinity to her, and the Lord simply replied "I'm one of a kind." He wouldn't say "Yes!" He wouldn't say "No!"
The idea that Jesus just left the Church drifting for a couple of thousand of years, while waiting for the Man of Gawd to come along and to receive the Word of Gawd as it had not been known since the first century, is LUDICROUS.
And we were fools to believe Wierwille's shell game!
One of the things I've had to come to grips with this past few years is the truth that God the Father and my Lord Jesus Christ don't give as much of a rat's a$ about the doctrine of the trinity as Wierwille did.
I've said this before here, and I'll say it again.
I have friends who firmly believe in the trinity and pray to...it/them and get prayers answered.
I know people who don't believe in the trinity (myself and other ex-Wayfers) who pray and get prayers answered.
Therefore, I conclude that it's not a big deal for God, nor for Jesus, though they may prefer things to be different. However, they know who they are and what their roles are. They love the foolish people of this Earth and put up with our silliness. They look on our hearts to do what's right; they see love and compassion, or otherwise; that's what they respond to.
I've said this before here, and I'll say it again.
I have friends who firmly believe in the trinity and pray to...it/them and get prayers answered.
I know people who don't believe in the trinity (myself and other ex-Wayfers) who pray and get prayers answered.
Therefore, I conclude that it's not a big deal for God, nor for Jesus, though they may prefer things to be different. However, they know who they are and what their roles are. They love the foolish people of this Earth and put up with our silliness. They look on our hearts to do what's right; they see love and compassion, or otherwise; that's what they respond to.
Yes, sometimes we had an arrogant attitude toward other Christians that came back to bite us. I think just maybe some of those other Christians had not only arrogant, but venemous attitudes toward us as well.
[twi'ers-- and some ex-twi'ers-- pushed/push this attitude of superiority and arrogance,
the OPPOSITE of what one should have if the actual CONTENTS of Scripture matter and not
just who can memorize more of it.
There are some Christians in churches who do the same, but less than one might think
unless one actually INTERACTS with them.
I've personally seen more venomous attitudes among twi and ex-twi than outside it.
When I've seen such attitudes outside twi, it's always been alongside
"Sorry about Christian X- he's always been a bit of a tool."
Other Christians get EMBARRASSED about attitudes that get CELEBRATED among some
ex-twi'ers and among still-twi'ers.]
The thing that really separated twi from mainstream Christianity was the concept that the written word of God has authority. Mainstream Christianity still just does not believe that. They take man made doctrines, like the trinity, and claim they are infallible. I hear that now, a church cannot be part of the National Council of Churches if they don't believe in the trinity.
[The CATEGORY "Fundamentalist" describes all Christians who believe the written Word of God has GREAT Authority.
And the phrase "Sola Scriptura" describes all Christians who believe the written Word of God has THE Authority.
As categories, in the US alone, that's MILLIONS of Christians. In twi, we never heard of those phrases.
(Technically, I did, but not from twi'ers. I first heard "Fundamentalist" explained by friends when I was
trying to evangelize them-and they weren't judgemental about it, just trying to figure out my positions.
As for the Trinity, not only does the average Christian soft-pedal the whole thing
(depending on how the question is phrased, they might repudiate it-one friend of mine did when I asked)
but those who believe it look at certain verses and believe those verses support that thinking.
Come on- you used to think "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" meant 2 ENTIRELY different things
in Scripture, when a simple read of the verses mentioning them both shows they are EXACTLY THE SAME.
Someone who knew better could easily have said you didn't "really" believe the Bible had authority
at the time- that you elevated your group's teachings over the Written Word.
Same deal-people can be HONESTLY MISTAKEN and yet DEVOUT and DISAGREE, even using the same Bible to
make opposing points.
So, there are plenty of legitimate Christians whom I respect who claim the Trinity, at least formally.
Doesn't seem to make a difference to God Almighty, Jesus Christ, or the Host of Heaven, since prayers
are answered equally fast for either category.]
Back in the day when twi was a "relevant cult" you could go to any Christian bookstore and go to the cult section and read the table of contents and pretty much all books on current cults had the Unification Church (moonies) and the Hare Krishnas as #1 and #2. The next 3 spots rotated from twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong, depending on which book you looked at. I'm told that Garner Ted Armstrong's group has changed their name and now professes to believe in the trinity. What a surprise!
[The only time twi got mentions was from a small window of time, when twi was considered the
"fastest growing" cult- for as much as 5 years after vpw hijacked the hippies and subverted
the ministries of legitimate Christians in Haight-Ashbury. Any student of statistics can
tell you, "fastest growing" doesn't mean you have a lot of people, just that your PERCENTAGES
went up. If you had 5 people 1 year, and 10 the next year, and then 20 the following, your
group can be said to have "increased 200%" in 2 years. That SOUNDS like a lot to those who
are intellectually lazy. That's why twi used to use percentages to mention way corps grads
when they were still mentioning them at all. (20% did this, 20% did that, and so on,
with a group of 5 people, so 20% was 1 person.)
For people who really have nothing better to do with their time but arbitrarily divide
Christians based on a doctrine like the Trinity, all this stuff is scandalous.
The average Christian DOESN'T CARE. They MIGHT care if you came in and rudely FORCED THE
ISSUE-something vpw did and twi was famous for (and ex-twi'ers were all trained in.)
I've seen kids who were never in twi, who had twi-trained parents, come here, post rudely
at the rest of us and display shocking ignorance-but sound like every word was pasted right
from twi publications. So, that venom has been passed down in a few cases.]
But THAT is what made twi stand out. That's why we were ever called "cult". VPs morality or lack of it has nothing to do with this. It stands or falls on its own merit.
[They didn't KNOW vpw was a plagiarist, a pervert, a man who claimed imaginary snowstorms
whenever it suited his purposes. What made twi "stand out" was the bombastic displays
pioneered by vpw and orchestrated by him-a pushiness that was sent out to infect local
communities.
vpw once claimed that HE-and a group-were closing an ROA with a list of anti-Trinity verses,
which they were going to post at the door of all the local churches.
(The idea was a lazy attempt to imitate what Martin Luther did without the important
part- Luther was attempting to OPEN DIALOGUE on his 95 Theses, but vpw, as always, planned
a hit-and-run.)
That was vpw's CLAIM. What happened? No such list. vpw's group, went to the church doors,
and posted a sign with his OPINION in big letters. "Jesus Christ. Wasn't God, never will be!"
Alongside the sign was an AUTOGRAPHED copy of vpw's book, "Jesus Christ is Not God."
vpw made it about HIM when it should have been about what God wanted. Few people actually
looked close enough to learn about the imaginary snowstorms, the more regular errors in
doctrine. They certainly didn't look close enough to critique perversions in a sex class,
or hear about "the lockbox", or be molested or raped or drugged by vpw.
What outsiders thought-and think- about twi, however,
IS A NON-ISSUE.
The NUTTINESS we're discussing is not "what did outsiders think", it's really more
"looking back, that was bizarre, stupid..."
Cute attempt to CHANGE THE SUBJECT off bizarre practices and doctrines, though.
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chockfull
Calling things like they are is not moral superiority. Adultery is sin. A continued practice and doctrine of adultery among a leadership group is sin. It is not moral superiority to state this. Loo
Kit Sober
From the Song of Soloman 6:11: "11I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley. .." Being from the Bay Area of California and a San Francisco Beatnik, I thought it nothing stra
Steve Lortz
Philippians 3:17-19 "17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. "18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even wee
waysider
"It's addressed (or not addressed) to me.">>>>>That was/is a huge get-out-of-jail ticket in TWI and it's derivative forms. You have to do at least 2 things to make that work. First, you have to accept dispensationalism. Second, you have to ignore contextual meaning whenever it interjects conflicting thought.
I remember, as a kid, we would take an ordinary pen and bet someone it could write any color.
"Make it write green", they would say. So, we would pick up the pen and, one by one, spell out the letters GREEN.
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Steve Lortz
Well said, WordWolf. Very well said indeed!
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
Thanks.
In fairness, I quoted one waysider because he made a good point that
was easy to skip over, complete with link,
and chockfull followed up with points I had left out.
One thing I like about the GSC community is that we all bring different
things to the table, and often different good points to the table.
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Steve Lortz
Philippians 3:17-19
"17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
"18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
"19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
It may be technically accurate to say that Wierwille taught that "Jesus is not God," but that is not to say that what he did teach was correct. Wierwille was wrong about Jesus because he didn't go on and teach WHO JESUS IS. Jesus IS the Lord, and He IS the head of the Body. Jesus Christ IS the one and only Man of God of the world for this our day and time! .
By saying that no prophecy of the Old Testament or Gospels could be applied to "this wonderful administration of the grace of God", Wierwille cut the Church off from the crucifixion. The crucifixion took place in the Gospels! Wierwille was an enemy of the cross of Christ at a much deeper level than he even appeared. And so are the people who still believe him.
They begin by paying attention to earthly things, instead of heavenly. They become proud of things they ought to be ashamed of (and for some reason, Athletes of the Spirit pops up in my thinking here). They come to serve their own appetites the way they ought to serve God, and all their efforts result in utter worthlessness.
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
Steve, I lost sight of who Jesus is, overlooked him pretty much altogether, as I expect many if not most Wayfers did and some still do.
It's accepting the gift without any sense of what the cost of the gift was, or what its value is.
If you worked hard to buy a diamond necklace for someone as a gift, or for a new car, or for - anything expensive - an operation, say... Or even, if you gave a body part like a kidney to someone whose kidneys had failed...and that person just said, oh thanks, and walked away and never displayed the item but shoved it in the back of the sock drawer or never thought of you again...
I imagine if someone as a living donor gave you their kidney, or donated their loved deceased person's heart or lungs for a transplant, you'd be so grateful for the new life you'd received. So thankful for the gift, and so thankful for the donor's kindness and selflessness. And acknowledging the grief and loss that a deceased person's family may feel, in order that we, the donee, may get life anew.
We were taught to ignore the kidney donor, the donor of the deceased's healthy heart. We just took the parts and shrugged at the donor. Like it wasn't a choice, wasn't a real cost. How selfish can we get?
And that was sooooooooooo wrong.
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chockfull
I totally agree that VP taught people to have a Jesus Christ identity crisis. The trinity is too mystical and a relic of history. Most modern Christians say they believe it, but when talking details sure easily see the distinction between God and His Son Jesus.
VP singled out that doctrine, in a sense constructed a strawman argument, then drove a wedge between his followers and pretty much any mainstream church teaching the trinity with his book, teachings, and overall attitude. After a long exposure to VP's doctrine, the practical effect was that most ex-TWI members don't feel comfortable in a church where the trinity is accepted, which is pretty much most of them.
If that isn't being an enemy of Jesus Christ while proporting to teach the truth about him I don't know what is.
If that logic is too hard to follow, ask yourself this - what attitude do/did you have towards other Christians? A look down the nose at how stupid they are because they accept a relic doctrine? A "lesser" Christian? Someone "not in the household" thus uninformed and lesser of a Christian? I readily admit to all of those attitudes. I'm sure a TWI shill would say that's my problem not TWI's. You're right. It is. But when I trace it back to its roots it is TWI doctrine and attitude that instilled it into me.
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johniam
Yes, sometimes we had an arrogant attitude toward other Christians that came back to bite us. I think just maybe some of those other Christians had not only arrogant, but venemous attitudes toward us as well.
The thing that really separated twi from mainstream Christianity was the concept that the written word of God has authority. Mainstream Christianity still just does not believe that. They take man made doctrines, like the trinity, and claim they are infallible. I hear that now, a church cannot be part of the National Council of Churches if they don't believe in the trinity.
Back in the day when twi was a "relevant cult" you could go to any Christian bookstore and go to the cult section and read the table of contents and pretty much all books on current cults had the Unification Church (moonies) and the Hare Krishnas as #1 and #2. The next 3 spots rotated from twi, the Children of God, and Garner Ted Armstrong, depending on which book you looked at. I'm told that Garner Ted Armstrong's group has changed their name and now professes to believe in the trinity. What a surprise!
But THAT is what made twi stand out. That's why we were ever called "cult". VPs morality or lack of it has nothing to do with this. It stands or falls on its own merit.
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skyrider
John.....you STILL contend to spew twi's propagandist-version of relevance of the 70s and 80s.
For the record....
1) Wierwille did NOT corner the market of "the written word of God has authority."
2) The list of preachers and ministers heralding THE WRITTEN WORD is exhaustive.
3) The trinity doctrine in many churches has FAR LESS RELEVANCE than you spout over and over again.
4) Twi was not slated as a cult simply because of its non-trinity stance.
Generally, I refuse to contest your posts, because of your twisted pro-wierwille stance.
But today......just decided that your "facts" needed to be corrected.
Most people here know that I was corps, staff, clergy.
Besides.....I spent 10 days in a deprogramming episode.
The "cult" issue ran far, far broader than your assertion of the trinity.
Sleep deprivation, mind-control, isolation, restricted communication, etc. were factors
and concerns that were alarming parents, friends and family.
.
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chockfull
yes, they thought we were in a cult. perhaps they were right.
Totally untrue. Fundmentalist is a specific term that describes mainstream Christians that believe the written Word of God has authority. Fundamentalism spans denominations, and specifically describes only that belief. Regarding the trinity, yes that is a relic belief still accepted. And years after his death, VPW still has impact in keeping his followers separated out from the rest of mainstream Christianity over this. Is that uniting or dividing the body of Christ? That's what's measured on its own merit.
And now all that stuff is on the internet (i.e. in Wikipedia) and all over like this site.
That sounds like something Rosalie would say. VP or any leaders' morality isn't the issue, the issue is the Word and whether you stand on it or not. So come on back to TWI and stand with us for the Word's sake.
johniam please point out to me the flaw in that viewpoint, and why you would not return to TWI.
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waysider
"Sleep deprivation, mind-control, isolation, restricted communication, etc. were factors"
Absolutely! This is the sort of thing that may have been missed by believers who never moved outside the local level or maybe spent a hitch in a free-wheeling sort of W.O.W. family. But, these are, indeed , the sort of things that constitute cultic experience. Add to these a charismatic leader, proprietary knowledge and a sense of elitism and you have a recipe for trouble. Not every cult has every trait. In fact, a group can have these traits without any "religious" affiliation. I, too, can clearly remember Wierwille saying, "They consider us a cult because we don't believe that Jesus is God". He was wrong. People considered us a cult because we displayed the characteristics of a cult, not because of our stance on the Trinity..
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Steve Lortz
One of the things I've had to come to grips with this past few years is the truth that God the Father and my Lord Jesus Christ don't give as much of a rat's a$$ about the doctrine of the trinity as Wierwille did.
Jesus Christ has been perfectly capable of functioning as head of his body for the past, what, nearly 2,000 years or so, whether people thought he was God or otherwise. God and Jesus each knows who He himself is, and they both know how to sort mail.
There seems to me to be only one incident where somebody supernatural stepped in to make sure a council decided doctrine a certain way, and that was when the Council of Chalcedon said that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. People don't realize that the alternative was for Jesus to be fully God and NOT fully man, which would have made him nothing more than a sock-puppet of God.
I had a friend up on campus a few years back who came from Russia. We did not come from similar backgrounds, but we used to have wonderful times talking about God and the Lord, because we both knew we were dealing with the same guys. She told me one time she had been begging for the Lord to explain the trinity to her, and the Lord simply replied "I'm one of a kind." He wouldn't say "Yes!" He wouldn't say "No!"
The idea that Jesus just left the Church drifting for a couple of thousand of years, while waiting for the Man of Gawd to come along and to receive the Word of Gawd as it had not been known since the first century, is LUDICROUS.
And we were fools to believe Wierwille's shell game!
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
I've said this before here, and I'll say it again.
I have friends who firmly believe in the trinity and pray to...it/them and get prayers answered.
I know people who don't believe in the trinity (myself and other ex-Wayfers) who pray and get prayers answered.
Therefore, I conclude that it's not a big deal for God, nor for Jesus, though they may prefer things to be different. However, they know who they are and what their roles are. They love the foolish people of this Earth and put up with our silliness. They look on our hearts to do what's right; they see love and compassion, or otherwise; that's what they respond to.
And the meeting of needs, of course.
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OldSkool
That is a very beautiful thing to say. Thanks.
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WordWolf
[twi'ers-- and some ex-twi'ers-- pushed/push this attitude of superiority and arrogance,
the OPPOSITE of what one should have if the actual CONTENTS of Scripture matter and not
just who can memorize more of it.
There are some Christians in churches who do the same, but less than one might think
unless one actually INTERACTS with them.
I've personally seen more venomous attitudes among twi and ex-twi than outside it.
When I've seen such attitudes outside twi, it's always been alongside
"Sorry about Christian X- he's always been a bit of a tool."
Other Christians get EMBARRASSED about attitudes that get CELEBRATED among some
ex-twi'ers and among still-twi'ers.]
[The CATEGORY "Fundamentalist" describes all Christians who believe the written Word of God has GREAT Authority.
And the phrase "Sola Scriptura" describes all Christians who believe the written Word of God has THE Authority.
As categories, in the US alone, that's MILLIONS of Christians. In twi, we never heard of those phrases.
(Technically, I did, but not from twi'ers. I first heard "Fundamentalist" explained by friends when I was
trying to evangelize them-and they weren't judgemental about it, just trying to figure out my positions.
As for the Trinity, not only does the average Christian soft-pedal the whole thing
(depending on how the question is phrased, they might repudiate it-one friend of mine did when I asked)
but those who believe it look at certain verses and believe those verses support that thinking.
Come on- you used to think "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" meant 2 ENTIRELY different things
in Scripture, when a simple read of the verses mentioning them both shows they are EXACTLY THE SAME.
Someone who knew better could easily have said you didn't "really" believe the Bible had authority
at the time- that you elevated your group's teachings over the Written Word.
Same deal-people can be HONESTLY MISTAKEN and yet DEVOUT and DISAGREE, even using the same Bible to
make opposing points.
So, there are plenty of legitimate Christians whom I respect who claim the Trinity, at least formally.
Doesn't seem to make a difference to God Almighty, Jesus Christ, or the Host of Heaven, since prayers
are answered equally fast for either category.]
[The only time twi got mentions was from a small window of time, when twi was considered the
"fastest growing" cult- for as much as 5 years after vpw hijacked the hippies and subverted
the ministries of legitimate Christians in Haight-Ashbury. Any student of statistics can
tell you, "fastest growing" doesn't mean you have a lot of people, just that your PERCENTAGES
went up. If you had 5 people 1 year, and 10 the next year, and then 20 the following, your
group can be said to have "increased 200%" in 2 years. That SOUNDS like a lot to those who
are intellectually lazy. That's why twi used to use percentages to mention way corps grads
when they were still mentioning them at all. (20% did this, 20% did that, and so on,
with a group of 5 people, so 20% was 1 person.)
For people who really have nothing better to do with their time but arbitrarily divide
Christians based on a doctrine like the Trinity, all this stuff is scandalous.
The average Christian DOESN'T CARE. They MIGHT care if you came in and rudely FORCED THE
ISSUE-something vpw did and twi was famous for (and ex-twi'ers were all trained in.)
I've seen kids who were never in twi, who had twi-trained parents, come here, post rudely
at the rest of us and display shocking ignorance-but sound like every word was pasted right
from twi publications. So, that venom has been passed down in a few cases.]
[They didn't KNOW vpw was a plagiarist, a pervert, a man who claimed imaginary snowstorms
whenever it suited his purposes. What made twi "stand out" was the bombastic displays
pioneered by vpw and orchestrated by him-a pushiness that was sent out to infect local
communities.
vpw once claimed that HE-and a group-were closing an ROA with a list of anti-Trinity verses,
which they were going to post at the door of all the local churches.
(The idea was a lazy attempt to imitate what Martin Luther did without the important
part- Luther was attempting to OPEN DIALOGUE on his 95 Theses, but vpw, as always, planned
a hit-and-run.)
That was vpw's CLAIM. What happened? No such list. vpw's group, went to the church doors,
and posted a sign with his OPINION in big letters. "Jesus Christ. Wasn't God, never will be!"
Alongside the sign was an AUTOGRAPHED copy of vpw's book, "Jesus Christ is Not God."
vpw made it about HIM when it should have been about what God wanted. Few people actually
looked close enough to learn about the imaginary snowstorms, the more regular errors in
doctrine. They certainly didn't look close enough to critique perversions in a sex class,
or hear about "the lockbox", or be molested or raped or drugged by vpw.
What outsiders thought-and think- about twi, however,
IS A NON-ISSUE.
The NUTTINESS we're discussing is not "what did outsiders think", it's really more
"looking back, that was bizarre, stupid..."
Cute attempt to CHANGE THE SUBJECT off bizarre practices and doctrines, though.
"This is your brain on vpw. Any questions?"]
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waysider
Remember that Paul Simon song, "Still Crazy After All These Years"?......Still Attracted To Nuttiness After All These Years (On GSC).
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skyrider
Good post, WW
Detailing and countering point-by-point. Thanks.
Especially.....these points:
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