Family back in the way

[Nero]

It's been a long time. :)/>

I thought my family and I had gotten away from TWI a few years ago. Now my brother and mom are being dragged back into it... Quite willingly.

Mom was going to a church for a while - I was so excited for her. I was feeling so close to her after years of feeling my parents had chosen TWI over me. They had let the adult members of "fellowship" treat me like dirt growing up. At least I was only bullied and subjected to years of mental and sometimes physical abuse. I never was sexually abused thank god. But they knew it was happening (even though mom denied it). My dad was the one who finally chose his family over that cult.

I finally got away in my twenties.

Now they are going back. Every time they mention TWI - I can feel my heart rate go up and I get so frustrated. It wouldn't bother me so much if they would just go and leave me out of it. Instead they bring up their doctrine with me all the time like I'm supposed to agree with them. :(/> Telling me everything has gotten better. How wrong my way of thinking is. The whole song and dance.

After leaving TWI I had a crisis of faith - it's so hard for me to even believe in God. I felt so betrayed and lied to. I'm thinking of trying to go to a church now. It is trinity based so my family is having a fit about it. I told my mother once - isn't it better that I believe in god at all? Having told her a long time ago that I didn't even believe in god. I think she was just upset - but she said something along the lines of I might as well be dead if I believed it. Maybe she was just thinking of herself but the way she worded it - it just made me sad.

My feelings are so hurt.

I love her. I love my family.

I'm so worried things are going to get worse and worse between us. I don't want my son hearing her talk about how TWI is the only true religion - or how crazy I am for my beliefs.

I feel like I've been rambling. Sorry, not sure what point I was trying to make. I'm just so sick of dealing with them and had to tell someone before I exploded.

[waysider]

Good to see you again, Nero.

I don't claim to have any answers but you can PM me anytime if you think it might help.

Edited January 1, 2014 by waysider

[Nero]

I'll be alright. I'm just being mopey - but I will probably take you up on that waysider. Man... We live so far away from any fellowship. I was so hopeful that I wouldn't ever have to deal with them again. Haha.

[krys]

Nero I'm sorry about your mother getting sucked back in. I've had a number of people tell me the same thing i.e. it is a quieter gentler organization. A number of my close com padres left but all they did was slide into a splinter group so they weren't really "out". They kept bugging me, but they got nowhere. I've been out almost 12 years so perhaps I was less vulnerable having straightened out some of my mind by that time.

[Nero]

Nero I'm sorry about your mother getting sucked back in. I've had a number of people tell me the same thing i.e. it is a quieter gentler organization.

Isn't that weird? It's like an abused spouse: "But s/he hardly beats me anymore!" It's something they have been saying for years. After CM left they acted like everything was super great. It never was and it's still justas awful.

I'm so glad the old man died - if not god know how long my parents would have stayed on staff if he had lived longer.

[waysider]

The only explanation I can offer for anyone returning would be that they are dealing with cognitive dissonance. How else can a reasonable person base life-altering decisions on a system as flawed as the "law of believing"?

Once you understand and accept how invalid the law of believing is, the veracity of their whole theological system starts to crumble. It's like trying to believe in the tooth fairy all over again.

Edited January 1, 2014 by waysider

[skyrider]

After CM left they acted like everything was super great.

Twi doctrine highly promotes its followers to COMPARTMENTALIZE.

By separating into detached compartments [times, leaders, situations, etc] the follower is manipulated to NOT *connect the dots* of a series of evil. Hence, with Martindale gone.....see, it's all better now.

Few ever step back and analyze the scriptural lists in Galatians and how it exemplifies twi.

Wierwille purposefully pointed in pfal to denominational churches as broken cisterns. Wierwille pastored in the church setting for some 17 years [?] and then, with Leonard's class, broke away to start a class-based ministry. Obviously, wierwille wanted to taint the churches in black and his newfound "ministry" in bright colors. Hahaha... what a joke!

Ever notice that ALL mogs start out *sweet and tender*......???

.....wierwille chumming with the youth and hippie-types at summer camps

.....martindale having sit-downs with folk after the fog years

.....rosalie and her "kind and gentle" org once lcm was ousted

YET....behind the window-dressing, the same, calculated agenda of twi-servitude.

Make NO mistake.....twi doesn't care about individuals and their needs.

The twi-machinery is there to keep the trains running on time and money in coffers.

The minute you ask a glaring question or show dissent, you are black-listed.

Personally.....I would never go back in the FRAY.

[WordWolf]

I can offer 2 possibilities.

1 is NOSTALGIA.

1 is FEAR.

The world changes all the time. Most of us can embrace some of the changes, given time to adapt.

Then there are always people who will go out of their way NOT to.

I know of a 90-something year old woman who has made it a goal to understand computers and

has progressed over time. I know some 70-somethings who almost have to be dragged along

whenever something about computers is discussed, even if it concerns their own interests.

So, there is FEAR of new things, fear of the unknown. Look for a rotary phone in a home if

you're unsure if someone fears new technology. Look for the VHS player where the DVD player

might go.

The other thing is NOSTALGIA. If you're used to a relative getting drunk and causing a scene

every Christmas or something, that's now part of your routine and it may just not be

Christmas without calling Cousin Stewpot a taxi and sending him home. Nostalgia ties into

the fear of the new by being the comfort of the old- and missing all the old things no

matter if they were good for you.

So, fearful of the new, even if it is much better often, rather than look,

some people retreat into what they know, even if it is grossly inferior.

It's sad, but human.

[Nero]

My mom - I believe - enjoys how effortless it is to make "friends" in TWI. After going to church and making almost no effort to make friends (you have to try and talk with people) the smallness of TWI makes her more comfortable being friendly.

The problem is - is these "friends" aren't really friends. If you make friends at a church and are actual friends with them - they aren't going to shun you if you leave their church. Unless it's another cult of course. She has only really seemed interested in other cult like organizations.

We left after Rosalie was in for a few years. I often wonder what that particular mog is like. Is she still in charge?

[Nero]

That and she thinks they are the only ones who are right about anything scripture wise.

It's been so great being out of the way. For the first time in my life I've actually been reading the bible. I can actually read it in a more understandable translation too. Growing up in TWI we could only read it in the KJV. And only the select chapters and verses TWI would let you.

[Twinky]

Nero, so difficult for you with loved ones still tied in to TWI.

It's true that there are some great people there - just not the ones in charge. At least, there used to be some great people. Maybe not now.

It is easy to make superficial friendships while everyone is buddying along. When things get tough, it's a little different. As in, such and such a person has problems; therefore they have a d.s.; therefore if you hang out with them you yourself will get pozzessed - so stay away - it's their problem.

I totally agree with you about different versions. When I started reading the bible again after many years I decided to avoid KJV and started on The Message - two versions nearly as far apart as you can manage. Now, I read in several versions though I have a fave version. Sometimes one version puts something differently, words it in a way that makes you think. That's nice. It avoids all that BS about in-depth meanings. Keeps it simple. Like it's supposed to be.

[johniam]

quote:

I'm so worried things are going to get worse and worse between us. I don't want my son hearing her talk about how TWI is the only true religion - or how crazy I am for my beliefs.

Years ago there was a semi household name in twi. Tom Burke. He did comedy satire music. I heard one time his mom and dad came over to see him. After a bit his dad starts in on him putting him down for choosing twi. Finally Tom got mad and said, "Look! You're in MY house, you're eating MY food, and you're drinking MY beer. If you don't like it here, get the f out!!!"

Yes, this is not the way you want to talk to your parents, but it worked. They showed a lot more respect after that. At least, for his right to choose twi.

Nero, your situation is the opposite. Sounds like your mom is in the habit of being in your house and putting you down for NOT choosing twi.

Personally, I wouldn't let anyone come inside MY house and freely say derogatory things about what I hold dear.

[WordWolf]

(snip)

Nero, your situation is the opposite. Sounds like your mom is in the habit of being in your house and putting you down for NOT choosing twi.

Personally, I wouldn't let anyone come inside MY house and freely say derogatory things about what I hold dear.

Not everyone would agree your specific approaches would be the best way

to proceed for a number of reasons.

Many wouldn't be shocked to see you reverse the situation- go to Nero's house, and berate

him if he spoke criticisms of vpw, twi, etc., putting you in much the same shoes

as his mom for putting him down for NOT choosing twi- whether as a "branding" or

"style" or literally as she does with the official organization.

When dealing with family, there are times when the 2 by 4 might not be a bad approach,

and many, many times when the 2 by 4 is the worst possible approach. When most of us

were in twi, it seems that we heard that the only approach to use consistently when

people disagreed with us WAS to use the 2 by 4- to berate or condemn them for

disagreeing with us. The idea that they could be engaged in discussion or just

prayed-for and loved for now didn't come up often- or at all for many of us.

twi'ers are NEVER known for their subtlety, and ex-twi'ers are rarely known for

it, either.

[skyrider]

So, fearful of the new, even if it is much better often, rather than look,

some people retreat into what they know, even if it is grossly inferior.

It's sad, but human.

Yeah.....fearful AND dependent.

When youthful exuberance is coursing thru one's veins....independence, thrills,

spontaneity, funny pranks, extreme sports, skydiving, etc. are staples of the

free-spirited crowd. Others have never tasted such freedom and choose to travel

the safe, dependent, comfort-zone, groupthink herding of the "institutionalized."

Twi has long been known for the latter. Do-what-you're-told and all is well in twi-land.

That's the message and its clearly repeated in their top-down organization. Even the

newly-attendees of their home-lectureships quickly learn the rules of compliance.

Pavlov's dog and conditioning comes to mind. Some dogs retreat to their little doggie cage

when the owner is gone all day at work. Why? The dog finds "security" more compelling than

romping thru the house and experiencing all its nooks and crannies and smells. Did the dog

"decide to retreat" to his cage.....or was he conditioned by his owner to refrain from such

independence?

[johniam]

I don't want to go to Nero's house. Unless his mom is a size 13 I doubt if I'd fit in her shoes.

[chockfull]

I don't want to go to Nero's house. Unless his mom is a size 13 I doubt if I'd fit in her shoes.

john you have an amazing talent for degrading a conversation from dealing with family members in TWI to "yo momma" jokes all under 1 page. did your teachers tell you this in school too?

[johniam]

I was merely responding to....

quote:

Many wouldn't be shocked to see you reverse the situation- go to Nero's house, and berate

him if he spoke criticisms of vpw, twi, etc., putting you in much the same shoes

as his mom for putting him down for NOT choosing twi- whether as a "branding" or

"style" or literally as she does with the official organization.

I don't think Nero or anybody should just let someone walk all over him in his own house. I don't care if it's a family member.

[johniam]

So...just disagreeing with you equals "degrading a conversation"? I see post after post of people saying they couldn't disagree with twi leadership and how wrong that was. I sure know how they must have felt.

[chockfull]

So...just disagreeing with you equals "degrading a conversation"? I see post after post of people saying they couldn't disagree with twi leadership and how wrong that was. I sure know how they must have felt.

Naw it was more the talk about someone's mom's size 13's. Sounds a bit "yo mamma" ish. Besides, what are you getting on about? Where did you disagree with me? I missed that one.

I guess maybe it's more your cryptic one-liner quips. Many times people aren't understanding what you're saying. Like here after you explained more you're just giving Nero some advice to stand up to his parents and don't let them frame what goes on in his house. But I didn't understand that before you explained more. It just sounded like you were being jerkish. But hearing what you mean, it's not degrading any conversations at all. That's trying to help. So I guess maybe talk it through more when people disagree? Like I'm trying to do here?

[WordWolf]

{snip)

I guess maybe it's more your cryptic one-liner quips. Many times people aren't understanding what you're saying. Like here after you explained more you're just giving Nero some advice to stand up to his parents and don't let them frame what goes on in his house. But I didn't understand that before you explained more. It just sounded like you were being jerkish.

(snip)

Without the "help files opened", that's pretty much what it sounded like.

If you explain yourself a bit better and express yourself less cryptically,

things might be nicer for everyone all around without you changing your content

in any substantial fashion.

[Nero]

I'm getting a bit better at talking with mom about the TWI stuff. I'm trying to explain to her that I don't think everyone in TWI is evil and stupid. I just don't believe what they are saying and the organization is pretty manipulative (in the nicest way possible).

I believe we will still have more conversations in the future but I'm trying to get better at talking with her.

[Nero]

I totally agree with you about different versions. When I started reading the bible again after many years I decided to avoid KJV and started on The Message - two versions nearly as far apart as you can manage. Now, I read in several versions though I have a fave version. Sometimes one version puts something differently, words it in a way that makes you think. That's nice. It avoids all that BS about in-depth meanings. Keeps it simple. Like it's supposed to be.

I have the NAB and another translation my friend gave me that I can't remember off the top of my head. It was so wonderful getting to read them. I've not quite gotten through the Old Testament yet but I actually understood what I read.

[Twinky]

Maybe, Nero, that's a way you could get to reach your Mom? Show/read to her from a different version, Hey, look what I discovered! (It might even be something close to one of the dreaded "literals"). After all, TWI never banned use of other versions of the Bible. They said that more study materials were available for KJV. And of course since VPW recorded the original PFAL class, some good new versions have been produced (some awful ones too). KJV is not "God-breathed."

I like Holman Christian Bible which is very readable, in sensible comprehensible English, yet seems to give nuances close to (what I understand as) the meaning of "original" words. NAB is good, RSV/NRSV are good too.

[WordWolf]

In particular,

the NASB is an excellent choice for this.

It's a hit among ex-twi'ers because it has the italics- which is the only legitimate reason

to prefer the KJV anymore. It is a word-for-word translation, which is the same approach

as the KJV. It is greatly superior to the KJV all other ways except nostalgia and

dramtic reading. It takes advantage of textual discoveries made in the last 2 centuries,

and it uses a consistent translation of words, where you have to spend less time ferreting

out in the Greek when a meaning changed because of translator bias- word A is translated

word 1 very consistently (not perfectly, of course, but much closer than the KJV.)

I've seen it lauded by scholars not familiar with twi- although they preferred other

versions for their own reasons, they complimented this one overall.

If you want to shock her, you can use her Greek Interlinears to show how the NASB doesn't

make the mistake the KJV does in talking about Jesus in early Luke-

which is one of 2 passages from the Gospels that shows that twi's doctrine about abortion

being ok because before 9 months it's not a baby is completely false- if one actually

reads the Bible without bias and without a KJV.

If you don't have the references handy for that, let me know and I'll lay it out simply.

(I've done it at the GSC before at some point.)

[Nero]

Maybe, Nero, that's a way you could get to reach your Mom? Show/read to her from a different version, Hey, look what I discovered! (It might even be something close to one of the dreaded "literals"). After all, TWI never banned use of other versions of the Bible. They said that more study materials were available for KJV. And of course since VPW recorded the original PFAL class, some good new versions have been produced (some awful ones too). KJV is not "God-breathed."

I like Holman Christian Bible which is very readable, in sensible comprehensible English, yet seems to give nuances close to (what I understand as) the meaning of "original" words. NAB is good, RSV/NRSV are good too.

Maybe they banned the use of different bibles only where I was. I remember it was highly discouraged to read from a different translation. My mom was a bit weirded out by me using the bible my friend gave me but was happy I was at least trying to read the bible after telling her I was pretty much an atheist.