People have had both good and bad experiences with offshoots, as well as good and bad experiences within an offshoot.
If someone wants to "fellowship" with an offshoot, fine. If someone would rathere go to a church, that's fine also. If someone chooses to become an athiest or agnogistic, that is there choice.
IMO, my current choice of how I worship is better than a previous choice. I will not say that my choice is the "best choice" or the choice that anyone else "should" make. We all should make our own choice.
This is an "UH OH" topic around here. Some of the most brutal threads I have ever seen either here or at Waydale were about the off-shoots.
You think that things get nasty when we are just talking about twi, vpw, lcm, clergy sex abuse....etc? YIKES.....you need to put on a flak jacket on the off shoot threads.
I've never found one, but is there a forum where people share about religious or biblical groups where the coordinators or clergy used to be with The Way?
The only one I've seen is called Greasespot Cafe. :)-->
My forum (which I like to think of as the explicitly Christian offshoot of GSCafe) doesn't have any real offshoot discussions to date, but you just gave me an idea...
Just wanted to chime in here with a comment. I think you'll find as many interpretations of offshoot "doctrine" and practice as you will the people who lead those groups in their respective local areas.
My experience with a few were involved in organizations who run Chr*s G*er's classes on "Walking in God's Power". Some of those local leaders were die-hard worshippers of VPW, others of Chris himself. Some had rejected some of the man worship and were students of the bible, others were worshippers of the written Word. Some who were wonderful lovers of God's people while in TWI, still were many years later. Others who were jerks, legalistic and lords over God's people, still were the same many years later. Some worked secular jobs. Some who were on the TWI-boob for most of their adult lives, were still sitting in their ivory towers mooching off of God's people.
I know you asked about doctrinal comparisons, but I think at least for those who run Ge*er's classes, none of them are even in agreement about what they teach, so it would be hard for someone to speak as the authoritative source, as technically, Chris Ge*r doesn't lead any of their local groups.
So just as you'll hear folks here at GSC describe a variety of TWI experiences and understanding of what was "the Word" doctrinally, you'll probably find the same to be true in many of the offshoots (with the exception of a couple that are very centrally controlled).
It's true that different people can be involved with the same offshoot and have different viewpoints. I'm still involved with the same group that Rottie Girl gripes about.
Where you were in TWI can affect your views. In my group, which is considered "Geerite", it seems that the folks who still talk about VPW ( and are most into Geer's classes) are those that were corp and clergy. A commoner like myself, who had no status in TWI, is just interested in walking with God as best as I can.
My observations on splinter groups are that they serve as excellent decompression chambers for those in the process of leaving TWI and those who have left. It makes the process of starting a life after TWI not seem so difficult. To this end I think the splinter groups serve a decent purpose. From what I can see , people check out some of these splinters , maye hang with one for a while, and then move on after they've gotten some stability.
However some of those groups have picked right up where the Way left off in terms of what they expect from people as well as the concept that only one group on the planet has access to the "word of god". Some splinters are cults, others are just groups of former Way with lingering interest in the home fellowship concept and a Way-embedded fear of any and all (popular) organized religions which prevents them from checking out mainstream churches.
From time to time I encounter former Way people who invite me to their "fellowship"
(a word that people still cling to) and I politely decline and change the subject. Most of these folks are cool enough to leave it at that and back off. But there are still a few who freak if they think you aren't going to any type of "fellowship" which , to them, is a sign that you are "possessed" or that maybe you really did so something to warrant expulsion from TWI. Its that minority thats dangerous - They've left TWI but the TWI hasn't left them and they seek to recreate that environment with them wherever they go - even if its got nothing to do with splinter groups. They just have to be RIGHT and they want everyone to know it.
But I have no problems if anyone wants to go to one of these. Its a personal decision and whatever makes you happy. BUT If you think going to a splinter is going to insure a huge number of rewards at the "bema" whereas those who go to baptist,methodist, and catholic churhces won't even make it to the "bema" then I would suggest that you might still be water-logged with WayBrain....
CES http://www.christianeducational.org/ started by John Lynn, Ralph Dubofsky, John Schoenheit and Mark Graeser teach some decent Bible imo, and have 25 or more differences in doctrine the TWI/VPW.
The CES people I fellowshipped with were good folks imo, no tirant types that I ran across, but I haven't been involved with them since the late 90's so I'm not current with them.
I found CES to be an decent "half-way" house to de-waybrain. And there best contribution was the teachings on Jesus Christ.
CFF http://www.cffm.org/ started by John Shroyer and Wayne Clapp has some wonderful folks involved, I fellowshipped with some when they first started out in the mid-90's. The fellowship was always sweet, but my critique of this group, based on may experience was they were too into VPW.
I have not been involved since 1997 so my info may be out of date, I don't know where they currently stand on doctrinal issues but back in 97 they were totally into Wierwille, a turnoff to me.
I spent a short time with a fellowship that was associated with Chris Geer (sorry I don't have a web site), it felt very legalistic and the people were often judgemental, plus they too were too into Wierwille for my taste. When I introduced some of CES's doctrine they were not very receprtive and poo-pood it almost instantly.
LMCI http://www.lmci.org/ started and led by former TWI clergy Dale Sides I found interesting for a while. He teaches almost everything differently then TWI. I found Dale was a fascinating preacher to listen to, but disagreed with some of his doctrines.
CBC http://www.christianbiblicalcounsel.org/ started by Vince Finnegan I have little knowledge of. I did buy some tapes about 10 years ago taught by Vince they were decent teachings on the Bible.
One of the things the bugs me about the offshoots, which I'm not currently involved with any, is that they don't promote each other's teachings. It's like rival businesses.
Anyway, I'm not endorsing any offshoot, but you might find it rewarding to check out the ones that have attempted to correct erroneous TWI doctrines and then research the word to see if these things are so.
Maybe someone can list the more well known offshoots and links to them so that MDVaden can see the differences and similarities.
MDVaden, one of them has some of the major researchers from TWI teaching. These were the people vpw and lcm went to when they had a research department at TWI.
One site has the differences and similarities listed or their doctrinal beliefs....I can't remember. One group even sends out free audio taped teachings.
I have only been out of TWI a few months so I don't know much of anything about the off-shoots, but like was mentioned, you'll hear either really really good things about them or really really bad things. I know that all the leaders who came from TWI are willing to discuss any questions someone has about TWI as well as why the left.
Whereas: "The Way Ministry International: a Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship ministry; recognizing that 'TWI' has changed their doctrines in recent decades, we hold fast to their original doctrines. Thus we are 'TWI-1'. Followers together of 'The Way', our risen Lord Christ Jesus."
"I would like to hear about anything you are studying, and I wish to share with you as I study various areas of scripture. As we research, teach, and fellowship together."
"I recall a time when TWI was about us each studying the Bible on our own doing our own research. Then we were able to freely share that research with others, teaching them what we had learned. Sharing our time, our experiences, and worshipping our Heavenly Father together in fellowship with one another."
Jerry carr's got Harbor Light Fellowship... they are based out of New Jersey and encourage Wierwille worship, Geer Classes, and other waybrained behavior.
I don't believe they are on the web but I'm sure someone on here knows where to find them.
Yes, I've attended the Methodist church for the past 4 years or so, and I love the service. We support some missions that have nothing to do with TWI.
And, yes, I still get tapes from "splinter groups," (most of which, I confess, I can't seem to find the time to listen to.)
But I still find it difficult to pledge my allegience to any one group. I often wonder why it seems to be such a big issue with us former cultists? Is it just the need to be identified with a larger group? Just wondering....
This isn't a splinter group but quite a few ex-way people participate in it. It is a group with Axxhony Bxxzard. Most ex-way and Way people know him. He is a great teacher, and not legalistic. He doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is God and that appeals to many ex-wafers.(if interested) You can search under Atlanta Bible College and Restoration Fellowship. They have churches and bible study groups all around the country. He wrote a book called, "The Doctrine of the Trinity"
i would'nt worry about any internut forum being used as a recruiting tool for any kind of off shoot group
no offshoot group hater would let it stand without challenge long enough for that to happen
anyway i don't think offshoot group fans like to be referred to as offshoot or splinter groups of TWI. it wouldn't sit well with me if i was still a big time die hard follower
i mean look at how anything that has a TWI trademark gets completely obliterated or at least swept under the rug by these guys
with the exception of course of Dr Weirwille's teachings stopping just short of saying if Dr Weirwille said it it must be so
I often wonder why it seems to be such a big issue with us former cultists? Is it just the need to be identified with a larger group? Just wondering....
It is a big issue, but because people on all sides of the fence can be sensitive. The subject got so hot on another forum two years ago that discussion about it was stopped, and I saw the contents of an interview on a sensitive part of the subject changed after I contacted the interviewee.
Some people, including some GSers are involved with these groups. That does not mean they have pledged allegience to the group. On the other hand, some do not want anything teacinh anything TWI like to be a part of their lives, and this does not mean that these groups are destructive cults.
This isn't a splinter group but quite a few ex-way people participate in it. It is a group with Axxhony Bxxzard. Most ex-way and Way people know him. He is a great teacher, but not legalistic. He doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is God and that appeals to many ex-wafers.(if interested) You can search under Atlanta Bible College and Restoration Fellowship. They have churches and bible study groups all around the country. He wrote a book called, "The Doctrine of the Trinity"
Christian Biblical Counsel (V. Finnegan) is, to the best of my knowledge, now closely aligned with Buzzard on major issues. I've lost touch with CBC, but last I checked there were only a few differences. V's son attended Buzzard's college, I think.
I know two local (never way) kids that attended his school as well. They're from a small "unitarian" denomination. Oh, and they grew up & have families. so much for the "kids" label...
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TOMMYZ
The topic comes up occasionaly. You could do a site search on "offshoots" or "splinter groups".
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mdvaden
Keywords, good strategy.
"splinter groups" - sounds like an explosion doesn't it?
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WordWolf
Discussions of this subject almost always take place in "About the Way"
or "Doctrinal".
If you're discussing what they teach, it's "Doctrinal."
If you're discussing the people or the influence twi had on them,
it's "About the Way."
(Meet the new boss,
same as the old boss.)
===
Perhaps a better question would be, SHOULD there be a forum for that?
I can argue either end of that.
The current system seems to work.
Would allowing side-by-side comparisons of them be of greater benefit?
Would their current members try to turn it into a recruiting tool?
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WordWolf
Hm.
On reflection, I think it WOULD be used primarily as a recruiting tool,
if not in the first week.
Nevermind.
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Zshot
One of the things from previous discussions is...
People have had both good and bad experiences with offshoots, as well as good and bad experiences within an offshoot.
If someone wants to "fellowship" with an offshoot, fine. If someone would rathere go to a church, that's fine also. If someone chooses to become an athiest or agnogistic, that is there choice.
IMO, my current choice of how I worship is better than a previous choice. I will not say that my choice is the "best choice" or the choice that anyone else "should" make. We all should make our own choice.
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Radar OReilly
Welcome MVaden.....
This is an "UH OH" topic around here. Some of the most brutal threads I have ever seen either here or at Waydale were about the off-shoots.
You think that things get nasty when we are just talking about twi, vpw, lcm, clergy sex abuse....etc? YIKES.....you need to put on a flak jacket on the off shoot threads.
Just fair warning!
:)-->
Radar
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oldiesman
The only one I've seen is called Greasespot Cafe.
:)-->
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Raf
There was an ex-CES forum for a while. It never quite caught on, although there are some interesting discussions.
I think http://www.exwayworld.com and/or http://www.excultworld.com have information about offshoots, but no active forum on them.
My forum (which I like to think of as the explicitly Christian offshoot of GSCafe) doesn't have any real offshoot discussions to date, but you just gave me an idea...
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Raf
I just started one.
Let's see what happens (naturally, there's no info on it yet).
Shameless Plug
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jardinero
Welcome to GSC, Mario:
Just wanted to chime in here with a comment. I think you'll find as many interpretations of offshoot "doctrine" and practice as you will the people who lead those groups in their respective local areas.
My experience with a few were involved in organizations who run Chr*s G*er's classes on "Walking in God's Power". Some of those local leaders were die-hard worshippers of VPW, others of Chris himself. Some had rejected some of the man worship and were students of the bible, others were worshippers of the written Word. Some who were wonderful lovers of God's people while in TWI, still were many years later. Others who were jerks, legalistic and lords over God's people, still were the same many years later. Some worked secular jobs. Some who were on the TWI-boob for most of their adult lives, were still sitting in their ivory towers mooching off of God's people.
I know you asked about doctrinal comparisons, but I think at least for those who run Ge*er's classes, none of them are even in agreement about what they teach, so it would be hard for someone to speak as the authoritative source, as technically, Chris Ge*r doesn't lead any of their local groups.
So just as you'll hear folks here at GSC describe a variety of TWI experiences and understanding of what was "the Word" doctrinally, you'll probably find the same to be true in many of the offshoots (with the exception of a couple that are very centrally controlled).
J.
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waterbuffalo
Just do a search on "control freaks."
I'm sure you'll come up with something.
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TOMMYZ
It's true that different people can be involved with the same offshoot and have different viewpoints. I'm still involved with the same group that Rottie Girl gripes about.
Where you were in TWI can affect your views. In my group, which is considered "Geerite", it seems that the folks who still talk about VPW ( and are most into Geer's classes) are those that were corp and clergy. A commoner like myself, who had no status in TWI, is just interested in walking with God as best as I can.
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diazbro
My observations on splinter groups are that they serve as excellent decompression chambers for those in the process of leaving TWI and those who have left. It makes the process of starting a life after TWI not seem so difficult. To this end I think the splinter groups serve a decent purpose. From what I can see , people check out some of these splinters , maye hang with one for a while, and then move on after they've gotten some stability.
However some of those groups have picked right up where the Way left off in terms of what they expect from people as well as the concept that only one group on the planet has access to the "word of god". Some splinters are cults, others are just groups of former Way with lingering interest in the home fellowship concept and a Way-embedded fear of any and all (popular) organized religions which prevents them from checking out mainstream churches.
From time to time I encounter former Way people who invite me to their "fellowship"
(a word that people still cling to) and I politely decline and change the subject. Most of these folks are cool enough to leave it at that and back off. But there are still a few who freak if they think you aren't going to any type of "fellowship" which , to them, is a sign that you are "possessed" or that maybe you really did so something to warrant expulsion from TWI. Its that minority thats dangerous - They've left TWI but the TWI hasn't left them and they seek to recreate that environment with them wherever they go - even if its got nothing to do with splinter groups. They just have to be RIGHT and they want everyone to know it.
But I have no problems if anyone wants to go to one of these. Its a personal decision and whatever makes you happy. BUT If you think going to a splinter is going to insure a huge number of rewards at the "bema" whereas those who go to baptist,methodist, and catholic churhces won't even make it to the "bema" then I would suggest that you might still be water-logged with WayBrain....
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Outin88!
Welcome to GSCAFE mdvaden!
I've spent some time with four of the offshoots.
Here's my 2 cents about them;
CES http://www.christianeducational.org/ started by John Lynn, Ralph Dubofsky, John Schoenheit and Mark Graeser teach some decent Bible imo, and have 25 or more differences in doctrine the TWI/VPW.
The CES people I fellowshipped with were good folks imo, no tirant types that I ran across, but I haven't been involved with them since the late 90's so I'm not current with them.
I found CES to be an decent "half-way" house to de-waybrain. And there best contribution was the teachings on Jesus Christ.
CFF http://www.cffm.org/ started by John Shroyer and Wayne Clapp has some wonderful folks involved, I fellowshipped with some when they first started out in the mid-90's. The fellowship was always sweet, but my critique of this group, based on may experience was they were too into VPW.
I have not been involved since 1997 so my info may be out of date, I don't know where they currently stand on doctrinal issues but back in 97 they were totally into Wierwille, a turnoff to me.
I spent a short time with a fellowship that was associated with Chris Geer (sorry I don't have a web site), it felt very legalistic and the people were often judgemental, plus they too were too into Wierwille for my taste. When I introduced some of CES's doctrine they were not very receprtive and poo-pood it almost instantly.
LMCI http://www.lmci.org/ started and led by former TWI clergy Dale Sides I found interesting for a while. He teaches almost everything differently then TWI. I found Dale was a fascinating preacher to listen to, but disagreed with some of his doctrines.
CBC http://www.christianbiblicalcounsel.org/ started by Vince Finnegan I have little knowledge of. I did buy some tapes about 10 years ago taught by Vince they were decent teachings on the Bible.
One of the things the bugs me about the offshoots, which I'm not currently involved with any, is that they don't promote each other's teachings. It's like rival businesses.
Anyway, I'm not endorsing any offshoot, but you might find it rewarding to check out the ones that have attempted to correct erroneous TWI doctrines and then research the word to see if these things are so.
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Belle
Maybe someone can list the more well known offshoots and links to them so that MDVaden can see the differences and similarities.
MDVaden, one of them has some of the major researchers from TWI teaching. These were the people vpw and lcm went to when they had a research department at TWI.
One site has the differences and similarities listed or their doctrinal beliefs....I can't remember. One group even sends out free audio taped teachings.
I have only been out of TWI a few months so I don't know much of anything about the off-shoots, but like was mentioned, you'll hear either really really good things about them or really really bad things. I know that all the leaders who came from TWI are willing to discuss any questions someone has about TWI as well as why the left.
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waterbuffalo
Belle,
I think Diazbro and Outin88 pretty much nailed it. They do serve their purpose and you'll know when it's time to move on.
WB
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Galen
Or try:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TWI-1/
Whereas: "The Way Ministry International: a Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship ministry; recognizing that 'TWI' has changed their doctrines in recent decades, we hold fast to their original doctrines. Thus we are 'TWI-1'. Followers together of 'The Way', our risen Lord Christ Jesus."
"I would like to hear about anything you are studying, and I wish to share with you as I study various areas of scripture. As we research, teach, and fellowship together."
"I recall a time when TWI was about us each studying the Bible on our own doing our own research. Then we were able to freely share that research with others, teaching them what we had learned. Sharing our time, our experiences, and worshipping our Heavenly Father together in fellowship with one another."
:-)
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No Way
Jerry carr's got Harbor Light Fellowship... they are based out of New Jersey and encourage Wierwille worship, Geer Classes, and other waybrained behavior.
I don't believe they are on the web but I'm sure someone on here knows where to find them.
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ex10
I really enjoy being a freelance christian.
:)-->
Yes, I've attended the Methodist church for the past 4 years or so, and I love the service. We support some missions that have nothing to do with TWI.
And, yes, I still get tapes from "splinter groups," (most of which, I confess, I can't seem to find the time to listen to.)
But I still find it difficult to pledge my allegience to any one group. I often wonder why it seems to be such a big issue with us former cultists? Is it just the need to be identified with a larger group? Just wondering....
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gladtobeout
This isn't a splinter group but quite a few ex-way people participate in it. It is a group with Axxhony Bxxzard. Most ex-way and Way people know him. He is a great teacher, and not legalistic. He doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is God and that appeals to many ex-wafers.(if interested) You can search under Atlanta Bible College and Restoration Fellowship. They have churches and bible study groups all around the country. He wrote a book called, "The Doctrine of the Trinity"
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ljn698
wordwolf
i would'nt worry about any internut forum being used as a recruiting tool for any kind of off shoot group
no offshoot group hater would let it stand without challenge long enough for that to happen
anyway i don't think offshoot group fans like to be referred to as offshoot or splinter groups of TWI. it wouldn't sit well with me if i was still a big time die hard follower
i mean look at how anything that has a TWI trademark gets completely obliterated or at least swept under the rug by these guys
with the exception of course of Dr Weirwille's teachings stopping just short of saying if Dr Weirwille said it it must be so
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Lifted Up
It is a big issue, but because people on all sides of the fence can be sensitive. The subject got so hot on another forum two years ago that discussion about it was stopped, and I saw the contents of an interview on a sensitive part of the subject changed after I contacted the interviewee.
Some people, including some GSers are involved with these groups. That does not mean they have pledged allegience to the group. On the other hand, some do not want anything teacinh anything TWI like to be a part of their lives, and this does not mean that these groups are destructive cults.
In any event, Radar's warning is warrented IMO.
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Raf
Christian Biblical Counsel (V. Finnegan) is, to the best of my knowledge, now closely aligned with Buzzard on major issues. I've lost touch with CBC, but last I checked there were only a few differences. V's son attended Buzzard's college, I think.
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TheEvan
I know two local (never way) kids that attended his school as well. They're from a small "unitarian" denomination. Oh, and they grew up & have families. so much for the "kids" label...
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