I do believe that I had admitted (in a different forum possibly) to have been in the wrong forum for the discussions that I wanted about information. Yes, the TWI forum was not a place to address those desires I have about Biblical discussion. I am not a defender of TWI, I in fact have alot of reasons to dis on TWI but desire not to do so - not really much profit in that. What I have found out about mis-posting on the wrong forum is how vicious folks can get about defending TWI - and I really don't care, dis all you want, you would probably find me in your back-court. What else did I learn by my mistake: anti-TWI folk have in essence turned themselves into a "sort" of cult, nah, cult is too strong of a word, just an anti-TWI click - 1st: don't defend TWI or else you will get piled on, 2d: stick together in your anti-TWI rehtoric and 3d: plan to exclude said individual. You see, maybe an opposing voice to the anti-TWI concept is a good thing for self relection of how a group interacts somewhat like a cult or click of folks. I though, am not your adversary. Go back an read your posts. I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that.
Dude, chill out. A lot of these old dogs around here's bark is much worse than their bite. ;) Have a cup of java on the cafe and keep breathing....
. . . simply teaching critical thinking, . . . also isn't sufficient. These are not problems of logic. They are problems of relationships: of grooming methods that result in recruits becoming isolated from their prior relationships, engulfed in the new isolating network and then subjected to high levels of arousal that create the trauma bond. . . .
One thing that drove me nuts while I was in TWI . . . people outside the cult/twi . . . never involved but somehow encouraging involvement . . . even when speaking against TWI/cults. (Something I hope to articulate better).
Maybe they didn't understand their role? TWI itself can't exist without the society we live in, right?
The article goes on to talk about education - but I don't think it's just about avoiding it yourself. Just because someone isn't directly involved in a cult, IMO, doesn't mean they don't affect/influence other people's involvement.
Well, I watched an intriguing (and perhaps a bit subversive) documentary this weekend, The Lottery of Birth.
A quote put up in a graphic in the movie caught my attention and made me think of this thread.
Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position. -- Bertrand Russell, British author, mathematician, & philosopher (1872 - 1970)
I wonder to what extent that insight makes/made us susceptible to cults.
I suspect the answer is -- to a great extent.
The next question becomes, what would it take to counter that susceptibility?
For several years, I worked as an RN in the OR at Robert Wood Johnson Hospital in NJ. I had the opportunity to meet a very diverse, highly educated and trained compassionate group of great human beings. I worked with a well-renowned vascular surgeon who was from Pakistan. He liked having me in his OR because we enjoyed interesting conversations while working together. He was a devout Muslim. I am not.
He often said that the best thing he ever did in his life was leave his native Pakistan and come here to the USA. He felt the USA was the greatest country in the world to live in. I asked him what made him feel and think that. His answer was swift and emphatic. "It is the genius of our Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, and especially the first amendment. To protect the FREEDOMS of religion, and the press, and the rights to peaceably assemble and to demand the redress of our grievances, is to me, the genius of our Bill of Rights. In Pakistan, these freedoms do not exist. And the reason given as to why they don't is because our dominant religion, which is also the religion of the state, refuses to accept anything else and thinks that the dominant religion should determine their laws and freedoms, and that religion should should underpin all government laws and determine societal conduct. That enslaves us all. The genius of keeping the State and all religions separate is what makes us the greatest country in the world.
As a citizen by birth, born, raised, and educated in the USA, I realized how much of our founding governing documents I daily take for granted. And, when I saw how much they meant to a very talented man who felt so strongly about them that he gave up a very lucrative and important position in Pakistan to emigrate to the USA, to enjoy those freedoms.
I agree with Broken Arrow: "What you are suggesting has been attempted and it didn't work so well. It was during the middle ages and it resulted in inquisitions. It came to where if you didn't agree with the king or authority you risked persecution, or even execution. Then a different authority would gain power and they would persecute for different reasons. There was no freedom for the individual and the carnage was much much worse. I would suggest that tyranny exists where dissent is forbidden and governments as a rule to not like dissent." Indeed, imo, tyranny does exist where dissent is forbidden. I also think our pal Rocky has offered some tremendous information and identified some books which are spot on in describing, exposing, and defining aspects common to cult groups of any kind. Thanks Rock!
I agree that attempting to legislate cults out of existence would be tyranny. Most recent horrifying example to me was the spate of RFRAs that were introduced in state legislatures dominated by Christian Dominionists and political conservatives leaning to the far right. RFRA= religious freedom restoration acts, such as in IN, AR, and a number of other "red" states. These were pushed under the guise of supporting and defending the first amendment rights of individual churches and their members, which they interpreted as giving them the right to discriminate against the LGBTQ communities in their states by refusing them services, or products available to the general public simply because of their sexual orientation or "beliefs and practices". I was outraged by these blatant attempts at legalizing religious bigotry through laws "guaranteeing" freedom to discriminate against anyone whose beliefs do not line up with what these various religionists believe to be necessary behavior on the part of a certain group of citizens in order to allow these "freedom fighters" to practice their faith and follow their consciences by totally discriminating against the members of the LGBTQ communities in their states because they do not live their lives according to the dictates of the lawmakers interpretation of the Christiam religions' doctrines or practices. Totally opposite the First Amendement guarantees of freedom of religion they claim to be protecting by these bigoted, unconstitutional laws! Sounds like the Pakistan Dr. Khan left!
That same First Amendment they claim the protection or restoration of by legalized bigotry, also protects our right to the freedom of critical thinking and freedom of speech and freedom of the press and the right to peaceable assemble and demand redress of our grievances. ALL of those together allow for peaceful dissent, rational, uncensored dialogue and informed, unrestricted, political debate. In other words, they protect us from TYRRANY, which was one of the fundamental causes of our Revolutionary War. Imo, it is sad that a talented and highly educated naturalized citizen from Palistan has more love and respect for our Constitution than many of our own, Ametican born "patriots"! Tyranny for any reason is WRONG, and unacceptable, at least in the USA. The right to free speech, an unfettered press, to believe what we choose to believe and think what we choose to think, and to freely and openly dissent and debate with those who disagree, must NEVER BE ABRIDGED for any reason, philisophy, or religious ideology. NEVER!
LOL WordWolf! Still quite rusty. The mods can remove those three sorrys. I could not figure out how to delete the 2nd post and wound up posting my attempt to delete 3 times! I aplogize.
Tyranny for any reason is WRONG, and unacceptable, at least in the USA. The right to free speech, an unfettered press, to believe what we choose to believe and think what we choose to think, and to freely and openly dissent and debate with those who disagree, must NEVER BE ABRIDGED for any reason, philisophy, or religious ideology. NEVER!
The irony in in thinking that Christianity is anything but a cult. Seriously. The only difference is the outrageous claims are believed because people (not eye witnesses) (supposedly) wrote them down nearly 2 generations after some guy who claimed he was the son of god died. Since then, every sect that has arisen started out as a cult until it grew or out lasted its crazy leader long enough to keep afloat.
The irony in in thinking that Christianity is anything but a cult. Seriously. The only difference is the outrageous claims are believed because people (not eye witnesses) (supposedly) wrote them down nearly 2 generations after some guy who claimed he was the son of god died. Since then, every sect that has arisen started out as a cult until it grew or out lasted its crazy leader long enough to keep afloat.
The irony in in thinking that Christianity is anything but a cult. Seriously. The only difference is the outrageous claims are believed because people (not eye witnesses) (supposedly) wrote them down nearly 2 generations after some guy who claimed he was the son of god died. Since then, every sect that has arisen started out as a cult until it grew or out lasted its crazy leader long enough to keep afloat.
Depends on what you are calling "Christianity," Tzaia...
Regarding everything that has been, and STILL IS recognized as "Christianity" since 381 CE when Theodosius declared, for POLITICAL reasons that Athenasian "Christianity" would be the only officially recognized version (for purposes of receiving governmental monetary grants), and all others would be recognized as lunatic heresy and punished accordingly, I HAVE TO AGREE with you! There are no two ways about THAT!
I remember as a child learning this little trick to play with my hands, where I would interlace all my fingers inward and then chant "Here is the Church and here is the steeple... open the doors and see all the people!" with appropriate transformations of my hand arrangement.
As long as we regard the Church as a building (or any other form of human structure) corralling a group of people... it IS a cult!
I don't think that's how Paul viewed it. If he were to try to put it into terms of modern social science, I think he would call it a web of developmental relationships indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
The whole point of conventional "Christianity" is to join a church (a building with a group of people in it) and GO TO IT.
My experience is that REAL "Christianity" is to receive the gift that is Holy Spirit, and then to walk in accordance with that Spirit. As a person does so, the Spirit puts her (or him) in developmental relation with others who are doing the same thing.
I think that, in the same way a blind pig occasionally stumbles onto an acorn, Wierwille stumbled onto the truth that joining "Christianity" is a matter of receiving the gift that is Holy Spirit... then instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to fully form the web of developmental relationships, Wierwille tried to hijack the whole thing with his Way Corps.
I became humble toward the Lord, and he began teaching me things, all by myself in the Engine Room Lower Level of the USS POGY. Several years later, he led me into, and then out of, The Way International.
During the years before I became involved with TWI, I tried to go join a little congregation up in the hills of Oahu associated with The Church of God Reformation Movement (Anderson, Indiana), but he gently led me away from it. He told me he and I weren't doing the same thing as the people there were doing.
Now, forty years later, the Lord has flung me into the Anderson University School of Theology, a premier thinking department (real theology) of the Church of God Reformation Movement (Anderson, Indiana)... and I have the presentiment that my job is to teach the doctors here (REAL DOCTORS) the difference between genuine Christianity and the cult that goes by that name...
Thank you, very much, Tzaia! for prompting me to articulate THIS thought on THIS morning!
(I use the pronoun "he" to refer to the Holy Spirit, not because I think the Holy Spirit is the third person of a trinity, though in that case it should properly be "she" since pneuma is feminine, as is Wisdom in the Hebrew Bible, nor because I am an unregenerate tool of the patriarchy, but because I think the gift of the Holy Spirit is a combination of the life-force of God the Father with the human personality of Jesus of Nazareth! I Corinthians 8:6 :)/> )
Yes Steve, but it still boils down to following "a" guy who has had outrageous claims made on his behalf that have yet to be proven to have actually happened.
I respect the conclusions you've drawn from your experiences, Tzaia. I can't argue with that! I value the contributions you have made, and are still making to my life!
I agree with Tazia on this subject -- that religions are cults in one way or another if we use the word "cult" as a religious idea, usually based on a "special person" that people follow and gain a sense of community from doing that.
We just finished watching the History Channel's take on Constantine's political maneuverings and use of the early Christians to stabilize his empire. The show was pretty good in that it reveals how he forced the church elders to agree on what the heck they really believed and which of the many documents (gospels, letters, etc. ) they circulated should be accepted as authoritative, collected, and made official. We call that the making of the biblical canon. It was man-made. Emphasis on MAN.
Of course, the series on the History channel is a simplified and gives its own slightly slanted view of the power of Christianity, but it did offer the unknowing watcher something to think about regarding the sweep of that slice of history.
Too bad about those Crusades, perpetrating evil in the name of Christ. btw...the Spanish Inquisition comes to mind. And we all know from Monty Python that "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" When I watch that, I laugh out loud every single time. My husband, too.
So...a few more thoughts. What did me the most good when I left TWI was reading about the formation of the Bible, Christianity, competing beliefs, etc.. I probably sound like a broken record, but I feel strongly about people finding out what their options are before jumping on any religious bandwagon.
Yay for public libraries.
The problem is, many people do not end up in a cult because they are 100% driven by reason or choosing an "option." So trying to "reason a person out of joining a cult" is pretty hard.
I know one person who was on the TWI research team, J*hn Sch*&heit., had been a philosophy major in college and rejected it in favor of "the accuracy of The Word" as fabricated by Wierwille.
So I am thinking that emotion plays a bigger role in cult recruitment than any logical arguments or broader knowledge available from wise folks or from books. Maybe a combo of emotion and reason, like "I want the truth and this guy sounds convincing" happens (that was me). But I think that a need to connect with other likeminded and kind people may be a more a powerful draw than "Truth" offered by cults and religions.
Recently I had a conversation with a Christian college student who has atheist friends and agnostic friends (there is a difference!) . He remarked on how they are moral even without religion, but he wasn't sure what their morality or ethics were based on, if not the commands of the Bible.
Why does that shock people? The student had no idea what Humanism was, or that philosophy offers us a way to navigate the world and be useful, productive, kind, generous, and good for the sake of being good people, not for the sake of gaining rewards in a supposed afterlife.
I tried to explain that for me, living this life on the basis of thinking it is probably the only one I get makes me want to enjoy it and use every minute for the good, if possible.
As an agnostic, I am just not smart enough or enlightened enough to have the certainty (like I used to have in TWI and before that Young Life, and before that in the Catholic church) that so many believers have about their beliefs.
Certainty about what God says or about your religious beliefs/doctrines, in my view, is our enemy.
Certainty (and greed and a host of other stuff) was Constantine's original motivation, as a recent History Channel show pointed out. Constantine was certain God and/or Christ, gave him a sign that he would win the war against his then-enemies. Later, there were Crusades which went on for a few HUNDRED YEARS because they were certain they were right in God's eyes.
IMO, certainty is the thief of democracy. It makes people NOT want to negotiate or compromise or get along. It makes some Christians bomb abortion clinics. It makes some people in politics claim that God is on their side. YIKES. Are we back in the Crusades? What happened to our democracy? Where is our common ground? At least can it be the golden rule? Maybe? Please?
So, I think certainty can be scary.
Last thought...cult prevention, I think, is a better way to go than cult undoing. Once a cult gets going, when people are so convinced they are doing God's will that you can't pry them out (that was me long ago), then the situation gets harder to change. Damage is done. Read the stories here at GSC if you're not convinced.
I'm interested in hearing what other ideas people here might have about preventing cult recruitment.
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Rocky
Preach it, brother!
skyrider
And,.........some "inadvertent cooperation" from his entourage......i.e. enablers. Bodyguards, valets, yes-men, swooning fawning admirers.........adding to the top marquee in town. Everyone, one
Tzaia
MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first quest
penworks
I found this excellent article about cults. Cult Attraction is Not a Problem of Logic
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chockfull
Dude, chill out. A lot of these old dogs around here's bark is much worse than their bite. ;) Have a cup of java on the cafe and keep breathing....
Nice article charlene :)
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Bolshevik
From above article:
One thing that drove me nuts while I was in TWI . . . people outside the cult/twi . . . never involved but somehow encouraging involvement . . . even when speaking against TWI/cults. (Something I hope to articulate better).
Maybe they didn't understand their role? TWI itself can't exist without the society we live in, right?
The article goes on to talk about education - but I don't think it's just about avoiding it yourself. Just because someone isn't directly involved in a cult, IMO, doesn't mean they don't affect/influence other people's involvement.
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Rocky
Well, I watched an intriguing (and perhaps a bit subversive) documentary this weekend, The Lottery of Birth.
A quote put up in a graphic in the movie caught my attention and made me think of this thread.
Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position. -- Bertrand Russell, British author, mathematician, & philosopher (1872 - 1970)
I wonder to what extent that insight makes/made us susceptible to cults.
I suspect the answer is -- to a great extent.
The next question becomes, what would it take to counter that susceptibility?
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waysider
"Question everything. Learn something. Answer nothing."......Euripedes
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DontWorryBeHappy
Great Bertrand Russell quote Rocky! Thanks!
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Rocky
Indeed...
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penworks
Love that quote! Read some of his work in college. Euripides, that is...
BUT, the "answer nothing" part...depends...
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waysider
Yeah, I don't understand the "answer nothing" part, either. I've got my hands full with "question everything" and "learn something".
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WordWolf
It seemed like obvious hyperbole to me.
Be slow to think you really have the answers, and slow to announce them.
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DontWorryBeHappy
For several years, I worked as an RN in the OR at Robert Wood Johnson Hospital in NJ. I had the opportunity to meet a very diverse, highly educated and trained compassionate group of great human beings. I worked with a well-renowned vascular surgeon who was from Pakistan. He liked having me in his OR because we enjoyed interesting conversations while working together. He was a devout Muslim. I am not.
He often said that the best thing he ever did in his life was leave his native Pakistan and come here to the USA. He felt the USA was the greatest country in the world to live in. I asked him what made him feel and think that. His answer was swift and emphatic. "It is the genius of our Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, and especially the first amendment. To protect the FREEDOMS of religion, and the press, and the rights to peaceably assemble and to demand the redress of our grievances, is to me, the genius of our Bill of Rights. In Pakistan, these freedoms do not exist. And the reason given as to why they don't is because our dominant religion, which is also the religion of the state, refuses to accept anything else and thinks that the dominant religion should determine their laws and freedoms, and that religion should should underpin all government laws and determine societal conduct. That enslaves us all. The genius of keeping the State and all religions separate is what makes us the greatest country in the world.
As a citizen by birth, born, raised, and educated in the USA, I realized how much of our founding governing documents I daily take for granted. And, when I saw how much they meant to a very talented man who felt so strongly about them that he gave up a very lucrative and important position in Pakistan to emigrate to the USA, to enjoy those freedoms.
I agree with Broken Arrow: "What you are suggesting has been attempted and it didn't work so well. It was during the middle ages and it resulted in inquisitions. It came to where if you didn't agree with the king or authority you risked persecution, or even execution. Then a different authority would gain power and they would persecute for different reasons. There was no freedom for the individual and the carnage was much much worse. I would suggest that tyranny exists where dissent is forbidden and governments as a rule to not like dissent." Indeed, imo, tyranny does exist where dissent is forbidden. I also think our pal Rocky has offered some tremendous information and identified some books which are spot on in describing, exposing, and defining aspects common to cult groups of any kind. Thanks Rock!
I agree that attempting to legislate cults out of existence would be tyranny. Most recent horrifying example to me was the spate of RFRAs that were introduced in state legislatures dominated by Christian Dominionists and political conservatives leaning to the far right. RFRA= religious freedom restoration acts, such as in IN, AR, and a number of other "red" states. These were pushed under the guise of supporting and defending the first amendment rights of individual churches and their members, which they interpreted as giving them the right to discriminate against the LGBTQ communities in their states by refusing them services, or products available to the general public simply because of their sexual orientation or "beliefs and practices". I was outraged by these blatant attempts at legalizing religious bigotry through laws "guaranteeing" freedom to discriminate against anyone whose beliefs do not line up with what these various religionists believe to be necessary behavior on the part of a certain group of citizens in order to allow these "freedom fighters" to practice their faith and follow their consciences by totally discriminating against the members of the LGBTQ communities in their states because they do not live their lives according to the dictates of the lawmakers interpretation of the Christiam religions' doctrines or practices. Totally opposite the First Amendement guarantees of freedom of religion they claim to be protecting by these bigoted, unconstitutional laws! Sounds like the Pakistan Dr. Khan left!
That same First Amendment they claim the protection or restoration of by legalized bigotry, also protects our right to the freedom of critical thinking and freedom of speech and freedom of the press and the right to peaceable assemble and demand redress of our grievances. ALL of those together allow for peaceful dissent, rational, uncensored dialogue and informed, unrestricted, political debate. In other words, they protect us from TYRRANY, which was one of the fundamental causes of our Revolutionary War. Imo, it is sad that a talented and highly educated naturalized citizen from Palistan has more love and respect for our Constitution than many of our own, Ametican born "patriots"! Tyranny for any reason is WRONG, and unacceptable, at least in the USA. The right to free speech, an unfettered press, to believe what we choose to believe and think what we choose to think, and to freely and openly dissent and debate with those who disagree, must NEVER BE ABRIDGED for any reason, philisophy, or religious ideology. NEVER!
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DontWorryBeHappy
Double post. Sorry.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Double post. Sorry.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Double post. Sorry.
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WordWolf
(Actually, that was the rare "quadruple" post.
You don't see many of those.)
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Peruser
Sometimes i like double or in this case a quadruple post - i need the repetition to remember it!!
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DontWorryBeHappy
LOL WordWolf! Still quite rusty. The mods can remove those three sorrys. I could not figure out how to delete the 2nd post and wound up posting my attempt to delete 3 times! I aplogize.
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Rocky
Preach it, brother!
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Tzaia
The irony in in thinking that Christianity is anything but a cult. Seriously. The only difference is the outrageous claims are believed because people (not eye witnesses) (supposedly) wrote them down nearly 2 generations after some guy who claimed he was the son of god died. Since then, every sect that has arisen started out as a cult until it grew or out lasted its crazy leader long enough to keep afloat.
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Rocky
All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher. Lucretius
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Steve Lortz
Depends on what you are calling "Christianity," Tzaia...
Regarding everything that has been, and STILL IS recognized as "Christianity" since 381 CE when Theodosius declared, for POLITICAL reasons that Athenasian "Christianity" would be the only officially recognized version (for purposes of receiving governmental monetary grants), and all others would be recognized as lunatic heresy and punished accordingly, I HAVE TO AGREE with you! There are no two ways about THAT!
I remember as a child learning this little trick to play with my hands, where I would interlace all my fingers inward and then chant "Here is the Church and here is the steeple... open the doors and see all the people!" with appropriate transformations of my hand arrangement.
As long as we regard the Church as a building (or any other form of human structure) corralling a group of people... it IS a cult!
I don't think that's how Paul viewed it. If he were to try to put it into terms of modern social science, I think he would call it a web of developmental relationships indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
The whole point of conventional "Christianity" is to join a church (a building with a group of people in it) and GO TO IT.
My experience is that REAL "Christianity" is to receive the gift that is Holy Spirit, and then to walk in accordance with that Spirit. As a person does so, the Spirit puts her (or him) in developmental relation with others who are doing the same thing.
I think that, in the same way a blind pig occasionally stumbles onto an acorn, Wierwille stumbled onto the truth that joining "Christianity" is a matter of receiving the gift that is Holy Spirit... then instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to fully form the web of developmental relationships, Wierwille tried to hijack the whole thing with his Way Corps.
I became humble toward the Lord, and he began teaching me things, all by myself in the Engine Room Lower Level of the USS POGY. Several years later, he led me into, and then out of, The Way International.
During the years before I became involved with TWI, I tried to go join a little congregation up in the hills of Oahu associated with The Church of God Reformation Movement (Anderson, Indiana), but he gently led me away from it. He told me he and I weren't doing the same thing as the people there were doing.
Now, forty years later, the Lord has flung me into the Anderson University School of Theology, a premier thinking department (real theology) of the Church of God Reformation Movement (Anderson, Indiana)... and I have the presentiment that my job is to teach the doctors here (REAL DOCTORS) the difference between genuine Christianity and the cult that goes by that name...
Thank you, very much, Tzaia! for prompting me to articulate THIS thought on THIS morning!
(I use the pronoun "he" to refer to the Holy Spirit, not because I think the Holy Spirit is the third person of a trinity, though in that case it should properly be "she" since pneuma is feminine, as is Wisdom in the Hebrew Bible, nor because I am an unregenerate tool of the patriarchy, but because I think the gift of the Holy Spirit is a combination of the life-force of God the Father with the human personality of Jesus of Nazareth! I Corinthians 8:6 :)/> )
Love (and I mean YOU, personally Tzaia!),
Steve
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Tzaia
Yes Steve, but it still boils down to following "a" guy who has had outrageous claims made on his behalf that have yet to be proven to have actually happened.
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Steve Lortz
I respect the conclusions you've drawn from your experiences, Tzaia. I can't argue with that! I value the contributions you have made, and are still making to my life!
Love,
Steve
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penworks
Hello,
I agree with Tazia on this subject -- that religions are cults in one way or another if we use the word "cult" as a religious idea, usually based on a "special person" that people follow and gain a sense of community from doing that.
We just finished watching the History Channel's take on Constantine's political maneuverings and use of the early Christians to stabilize his empire. The show was pretty good in that it reveals how he forced the church elders to agree on what the heck they really believed and which of the many documents (gospels, letters, etc. ) they circulated should be accepted as authoritative, collected, and made official. We call that the making of the biblical canon. It was man-made. Emphasis on MAN.
Of course, the series on the History channel is a simplified and gives its own slightly slanted view of the power of Christianity, but it did offer the unknowing watcher something to think about regarding the sweep of that slice of history.
Let's talk about cults in terms of the Crusades
Too bad about those Crusades, perpetrating evil in the name of Christ. btw...the Spanish Inquisition comes to mind. And we all know from Monty Python that "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" When I watch that, I laugh out loud every single time. My husband, too.
So...a few more thoughts. What did me the most good when I left TWI was reading about the formation of the Bible, Christianity, competing beliefs, etc.. I probably sound like a broken record, but I feel strongly about people finding out what their options are before jumping on any religious bandwagon.
Yay for public libraries.
The problem is, many people do not end up in a cult because they are 100% driven by reason or choosing an "option." So trying to "reason a person out of joining a cult" is pretty hard.
I know one person who was on the TWI research team, J*hn Sch*&heit., had been a philosophy major in college and rejected it in favor of "the accuracy of The Word" as fabricated by Wierwille.
So I am thinking that emotion plays a bigger role in cult recruitment than any logical arguments or broader knowledge available from wise folks or from books. Maybe a combo of emotion and reason, like "I want the truth and this guy sounds convincing" happens (that was me). But I think that a need to connect with other likeminded and kind people may be a more a powerful draw than "Truth" offered by cults and religions.
Recently I had a conversation with a Christian college student who has atheist friends and agnostic friends (there is a difference!) . He remarked on how they are moral even without religion, but he wasn't sure what their morality or ethics were based on, if not the commands of the Bible.
Why does that shock people? The student had no idea what Humanism was, or that philosophy offers us a way to navigate the world and be useful, productive, kind, generous, and good for the sake of being good people, not for the sake of gaining rewards in a supposed afterlife.
I tried to explain that for me, living this life on the basis of thinking it is probably the only one I get makes me want to enjoy it and use every minute for the good, if possible.
As an agnostic, I am just not smart enough or enlightened enough to have the certainty (like I used to have in TWI and before that Young Life, and before that in the Catholic church) that so many believers have about their beliefs.
Certainty about what God says or about your religious beliefs/doctrines, in my view, is our enemy.
Certainty (and greed and a host of other stuff) was Constantine's original motivation, as a recent History Channel show pointed out. Constantine was certain God and/or Christ, gave him a sign that he would win the war against his then-enemies. Later, there were Crusades which went on for a few HUNDRED YEARS because they were certain they were right in God's eyes.
IMO, certainty is the thief of democracy. It makes people NOT want to negotiate or compromise or get along. It makes some Christians bomb abortion clinics. It makes some people in politics claim that God is on their side. YIKES. Are we back in the Crusades? What happened to our democracy? Where is our common ground? At least can it be the golden rule? Maybe? Please?
So, I think certainty can be scary.
Last thought...cult prevention, I think, is a better way to go than cult undoing. Once a cult gets going, when people are so convinced they are doing God's will that you can't pry them out (that was me long ago), then the situation gets harder to change. Damage is done. Read the stories here at GSC if you're not convinced.
I'm interested in hearing what other ideas people here might have about preventing cult recruitment.
Got any?
Peace,
Penworks
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