One thing I hope we can agree on is that we were all affected in ways that are far deeper than we may ever realize. Decades have passed. By now, it should seem as funny as the broken arm at age 8 that was the result of foolish horseplay. But, it doesn't. Somethings seem funny, yes. Too many things, though, left scars that will never disappear, no matter how much time passes.
I'm not seeing a whole lot that I agree with from TLC, but he's entitled to his voice here just like everyone else. The TWI experience was anything but one-size-fits-all
I'm not seeing a whole lot that I agree with from TLC, but he's entitled to his voice here just like everyone else. The TWI experience was anything but one-size-fits-all
Sure, TLC is entitled to his own opinion here.
Would be nice if he'd drop the arrogance, know-it-all attitude
DWBH asked, "Why? What is your reasoning behind these writings? What is your objective in posting them here?"
TLC responded, "Why purport that my reasons are any less honorable or noble than yours?
Maybe you'd see they aren't if you'd ever ditch the already prejudiced attitude.
But as I said once already, if everyone sees it as you do, I have no problem with bowing out."
You deflected, TLC, but you didn't answer DWBH's question...
What IS your objective in posting here?
Love,
Steve
Whether subtle or not, it appears TLC's deflections (and they are plenty), seem to give insight into perceptions of gaslighting in twi in the 1970s/1980s.
And yes, Oakspear, TLC has every right to express his opinion and have a voice. That doesn't mean others are to be forbidden to pick them apart, does it?
Really, if those of us who fought in the trenches over the years (just WOW or other programs) are not as enlightened as you posting "corp folk" then fine.
If I had only 5 years in twi and not 13 and am thus a lesser poster then fine.
If a poster says anything that even closely relates to past/present twi teachings and then gets piled on by the GSC establishment (long time posters)then fine.
If you chase folks away that disagree with your dogma, what do you have, well you won't have any fresh meat.
I have only been on this site for 10 months and in that time and also reading some past threads I see a pattern of some of the veteran GSCer's going into pack attack mode.
Much like TLC, I put a target on my back from the start - I don't agree with all TLC has written but I see the same "cyote" pack attack mentality by some GSC vets.
But, of course, I have digressed. My point is that this thread, as well as other threads, have become "corp exclusive threads" to the point of corp experience credibility.
Whether subtle or not, it appears TLC's deflections (and they are plenty), seem to give insight into perceptions of gaslighting in twi in the 1970s/1980s.
. . .
There's a thread on gaslighting if anyone has good examples.
(And to TLC, TWI/PFAL made us all victims of crummy practices, in turn we all, IMO, picked up bad habits. Identifying them is part of the process.)
TWI/PFAL made us all victims of crummy practices, in turn we all, IMO, picked up bad habits.
I'll agree that there were a lot of crummy practiced within TWI, some number of which stemmed from what was taught in PFAL and more that stemmed from the example set by leadership in the ministry, that we all, to some degree or another, developed similar bad habits. However, it might foster a little too much of the "I was victim" mentality to simply say that it was TWI/PFAL that made us victims. I'm not saying that no one was victimized (it happened), or that we all, to some degree might feel that way. But if part of healing and/or changing those bad habits (however you want to think of it) entails accepting a certain amount of personal responsibility for it, then I think there's a little caution merited in what we see as the reason for any bad habits that we might still have.
Identifying them is part of the process.
And it's my opinion that one of the worst is this "I have more truth than you" or "he's more spiritual than you" hierarchy that was cast," which many (including many here) are still deeply ensnared within.
I'll agree that there were a lot of crummy practiced within TWI, some number of which stemmed from what was taught in PFAL and more that stemmed from the example set by leadership in the ministry, . . . .
This is an interesting point. How these two relate is the crux of a lot of argument. How much evil was caused by the teaching of PFAL and how much was individual interjections?
However, it might foster a little too much of the "I was victim" mentality to simply say that it was TWI/PFAL that made us victims. I'm not saying that no one was victimized (it happened), or that we all, to some degree might feel that way. But if part of healing and/or changing those bad habits (however you want to think of it) entails accepting a certain amount of personal responsibility for it, then I think there's a little caution merited in what we see as the reason for any bad habits that we might still have.
No, there's no point in wallowing in defeat. People were tricked. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice . . .
And it's my opinion that one of the worst is this "I have more truth than you" or "he's more spiritual than you" hierarchy that was cast," which many (including many here) are still deeply ensnared within.
Do you think there might be a common cause to this attitude?
Pride and humility gets all twisted around (backassward) when there's little or no personal relationship with the ascended Christ.
The Way Tree? Leaf connected to the twig, connected to the branch, connected to the limb, connected to the root?
Where's the connection to the head in that?
It's a false head - set up to be VP.
VP's entire focus for his teaching ministry seemed to be on the minutae of Jesus life, and missed the relationship. 4 Crucified, The Day JC Died, JCPS,JCOP all subtly emphasize that if you can't trust a preacher on the physical details of Jesus life and ministry then how can you trust them on true spiritual matters. That is the hook that got people to devalue other mainstream Christian teachings (or at least the ones not plagiarized by VP). Combine that with an egotistical appeal to be a little more spiritual than your neighbor, and some programs to feed into that, and that separates out Christians from the herd, where they can be made totally reliant on one person and their interpretation of scripture. Cult 101. VP set himself up as the head of the body by proxy.
Another problem is the caste system, which feeds on human weakness and enables this type of scenario. An individual sets themselves up as an intercessor between another and Christ, and other compliant people accept that. Jesus came so that we can accept him as lord and therefore not need another intercessor between ourselves and God. We have direct dial, speed dial, voice command dial, etc.
Genuine Christianity IMO has two important aspects of attitude here - Access and Accountability
Access - all have equal access in prayer to God
Accountability - all have individual responsibility for their own life (can't blame choices on an intercessor making a decision for you)
Where problems enter in is the distortion of those 2 aspects - another "man" - leader, prophet, etc. between an individual and God in their prayer life, and the accountability or lack of it that a weakened morality and theology erode.
Thus people are brought into slavery and dependence on others for what should be their own personal relationship with Christ.
And it's my opinion that one of the worst is this "I have more truth than you" or "he's more spiritual than you" hierarchy that was cast," which many (including many here) are still deeply ensnared within.
yeah agreed - or that "I can fix you" mentality in the same attitude. we all struggle with that stuff i believe, myself included. in reality i can't fix you. i can't even fix myself. i'm broken. i can develop a relationship with my savior and heal. and that healing can make me a new life.
anyway i guess my point is that i have issues just like all of y'all. and that they are ongoing rather than being all healed and not affecting me anymore. but it's better than yesterday. that's reality. true reality isn't the problem, it's the false vision realities living in people's heads.
And it's my opinion that one of the worst is this "I have more truth than you" or "he's more spiritual than you" hierarchy that was cast," which many (including many here) are still deeply ensnared within.
Classic projecting. You have no real, legitimate way of knowing that to be the case. All you can know is what each says on this forum. Reading anything into those words other than those words can only
come from how you imagine that person with whom you take issue to be.
Bottom line is that you can only know that people disagree with you here. Unless any of them state that they believe they "have more truth than you" or are "he's more spiritual than you" all you really have
(that comes from anyone other than yourself) is that they disagree with you.
Does that make them right and you wrong? Or you right and them wrong? The way I look at it is that we really can't know which is factually true.
Yes, I disagree with you. I also don't care whether you're right or wrong.
When I asked you to define "spiritual knowledge," all I know is that you didn't really answer the question. That doesn't mean I know more than you.
It might mean that I'm more confident in my own understanding of life that I'm willing to even entertain the question myself.
And it's my opinion that one of the worst is this "I have more truth than you" or "he's more spiritual than you" hierarchy that was cast," which many (including many here) are still deeply ensnared within.
TLC....check out the link below to a discussion we had towards this 5 years ago.
I have long held the view that wierwille's twi was strategically divisive from its inception.
There was a caste system to this "I have more truth than you" that engendered a basis of class
participation wherein "more knowledge = more spiritual" and thus, more promotions.
In reading this thread, you will see how many debunk this setup and ruse.
Personally, I've never thought that "members in particular in the One Body" is based solely on
learning Greek, Aramaic, Figures of Speech, or twi's purporting of "the rightly-divided word."
It revolves around how you define charity. Personally, my definition of charity would not include taking a child who suffers from a learning disability into the woods and beating him with a 2x4. (Yes, that literally happened in The Way. The suggestion, not the follow through, thank goodness.) They have a strange way of defining love.
Do you always use such broad strokes in your judgments?
Do you know anything about me?
No, not always. But if or when something is (or was) observed repeatedly, it seems fair to make a generalized statement about it. Of course there can be, and undoubted are, exceptions. Same for the Corps training. It didn't automatically ruin everyone that graduated or necessarily make them more puffed up. But puffed up so many became, that a generalization of the effect of the program is not entirely unreasonable, is it? The knife cuts both ways.
And no, I know little to nothing about you, except for some of the snide remarks towards me that you seem to be rather adept on this thread. Were you that way before your title? Do tell.
(edited only slightly, for better clarity)
Oh, so...."knowledge puffeth up..." is your end-all cliché of the day?
Nice.
This post has been edited by skyrider: Today, 10:34 AM
What, did you change your mind about what you just said? Back to the snide remarks, is it?
No, not always. But if or when something is (or was) observed repeatedly, it seems fair to make a generalized statement about it. Of course there can be, and undoubted are, exceptions. Same for the Corps training. It didn't automatically ruin everyone that graduated or necessarily make them more puffed up. But puffed up so many became, that generalization the effect of the program is not entirely unreasonable, is it? The knife cuts both ways.
And no, I know little to nothing about you, except for some of the snide remarks towards me that you seem to be rather adept on this thread. Were you that way before your title? Do tell.
Do tell? :biglaugh:/>
Someone who comes on this open forum and hides in the shadows
and makes insinuating remarks?
Do tell? Are you a wierwille-defender? Did some corps guy marry your girlfriend?
What? You were involved around 1973 or so? What are you 66 years old and are
now coming to the realization that wierwille's cult was really messed up?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
17
30
43
38
Popular Days
Jan 26
37
Jan 24
26
Jan 22
17
Jan 20
16
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 17 posts
waysider 30 posts
Bolshevik 43 posts
TLC 38 posts
Popular Days
Jan 26 2016
37 posts
Jan 24 2016
26 posts
Jan 22 2016
17 posts
Jan 20 2016
16 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
How ridiculous, Mrs A has a wealth of knowledge. And that's appropriate to share. It's part of the Body of Christ working together, every part contributing what it can. Mrs A, having raised all you
waysider
It all goes back to the non-existent *law of believing*. You were supposed to *believe* for things to get better. If they didn't, it was your own fault. Then, to add insult to injury, you were consid
Rocky
Alas and alak, we get to the roots of the thing. Btw, this might also be the roots/foundation of the concept of gaslighting as we've experienced it in twi. It is inherently human to be curious. To e
waysider
One thing I hope we can agree on is that we were all affected in ways that are far deeper than we may ever realize. Decades have passed. By now, it should seem as funny as the broken arm at age 8 that was the result of foolish horseplay. But, it doesn't. Somethings seem funny, yes. Too many things, though, left scars that will never disappear, no matter how much time passes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I'm not seeing a whole lot that I agree with from TLC, but he's entitled to his voice here just like everyone else. The TWI experience was anything but one-size-fits-all
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Sure, TLC is entitled to his own opinion here.
Would be nice if he'd drop the arrogance, know-it-all attitude
and quit speaking in shadowy innuendos.
After 41 posts.....whatever he is trying to say
is still questionable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
5)Learning of twi's seedy underbelly is sickening
6)Now, 40-some years later....much different perspective
7)Some might not like looking at the man in the mirror
8)An open forum is anti-twi, anti-isolationist
9)Suppressed from critical thought, the mind must awaken
The internet and open forums......welcome to A BRAVE, NEW WORLD.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
DWBH asked, "Why? What is your reasoning behind these writings? What is your objective in posting them here?"
TLC responded, "Why purport that my reasons are any less honorable or noble than yours?
Maybe you'd see they aren't if you'd ever ditch the already prejudiced attitude.
But as I said once already, if everyone sees it as you do, I have no problem with bowing out."
You deflected, TLC, but you didn't answer DWBH's question...
What IS your objective in posting here?
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Whether subtle or not, it appears TLC's deflections (and they are plenty), seem to give insight into perceptions of gaslighting in twi in the 1970s/1980s.
And yes, Oakspear, TLC has every right to express his opinion and have a voice. That doesn't mean others are to be forbidden to pick them apart, does it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
Really, if those of us who fought in the trenches over the years (just WOW or other programs) are not as enlightened as you posting "corp folk" then fine.
If I had only 5 years in twi and not 13 and am thus a lesser poster then fine.
If a poster says anything that even closely relates to past/present twi teachings and then gets piled on by the GSC establishment (long time posters)then fine.
If you chase folks away that disagree with your dogma, what do you have, well you won't have any fresh meat.
I have only been on this site for 10 months and in that time and also reading some past threads I see a pattern of some of the veteran GSCer's going into pack attack mode.
Much like TLC, I put a target on my back from the start - I don't agree with all TLC has written but I see the same "cyote" pack attack mentality by some GSC vets.
But, of course, I have digressed. My point is that this thread, as well as other threads, have become "corp exclusive threads" to the point of corp experience credibility.
Sheesh!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
(Are we talking behind someone's back, triangulating?)
Might be easier to learn ways to deal, than ask another to change. Might help relieve some "shadowiness". JMO.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
There's a thread on gaslighting if anyone has good examples.
(And to TLC, TWI/PFAL made us all victims of crummy practices, in turn we all, IMO, picked up bad habits. Identifying them is part of the process.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
I'll agree that there were a lot of crummy practiced within TWI, some number of which stemmed from what was taught in PFAL and more that stemmed from the example set by leadership in the ministry, that we all, to some degree or another, developed similar bad habits. However, it might foster a little too much of the "I was victim" mentality to simply say that it was TWI/PFAL that made us victims. I'm not saying that no one was victimized (it happened), or that we all, to some degree might feel that way. But if part of healing and/or changing those bad habits (however you want to think of it) entails accepting a certain amount of personal responsibility for it, then I think there's a little caution merited in what we see as the reason for any bad habits that we might still have.
And it's my opinion that one of the worst is this "I have more truth than you" or "he's more spiritual than you" hierarchy that was cast," which many (including many here) are still deeply ensnared within.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
This is an interesting point. How these two relate is the crux of a lot of argument. How much evil was caused by the teaching of PFAL and how much was individual interjections?
No, there's no point in wallowing in defeat. People were tricked. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice . . .
Do you think there might be a common cause to this attitude?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Hmmmm. Why isn't TWI as big as it was in the '70's?
I'm going to have to go with adultery and the internet as an answer there.
Corollary question:
"If a tree falls in the forest and noone hears it, do the Sunday Services still suck?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
The example of those around us always seems to have more effect than whatever might be read or heard. Talk is cheap, so to speak.
Aside from what was just discussed?
Col.2:18-19 offers a rather prominent reason that might interest you.
Pride and humility gets all twisted around (backassward) when there's little or no personal relationship with the ascended Christ.
The Way Tree? Leaf connected to the twig, connected to the branch, connected to the limb, connected to the root?
Where's the connection to the head in that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
It's a false head - set up to be VP.
VP's entire focus for his teaching ministry seemed to be on the minutae of Jesus life, and missed the relationship. 4 Crucified, The Day JC Died, JCPS,JCOP all subtly emphasize that if you can't trust a preacher on the physical details of Jesus life and ministry then how can you trust them on true spiritual matters. That is the hook that got people to devalue other mainstream Christian teachings (or at least the ones not plagiarized by VP). Combine that with an egotistical appeal to be a little more spiritual than your neighbor, and some programs to feed into that, and that separates out Christians from the herd, where they can be made totally reliant on one person and their interpretation of scripture. Cult 101. VP set himself up as the head of the body by proxy.
Another problem is the caste system, which feeds on human weakness and enables this type of scenario. An individual sets themselves up as an intercessor between another and Christ, and other compliant people accept that. Jesus came so that we can accept him as lord and therefore not need another intercessor between ourselves and God. We have direct dial, speed dial, voice command dial, etc.
Genuine Christianity IMO has two important aspects of attitude here - Access and Accountability
Access - all have equal access in prayer to God
Accountability - all have individual responsibility for their own life (can't blame choices on an intercessor making a decision for you)
Where problems enter in is the distortion of those 2 aspects - another "man" - leader, prophet, etc. between an individual and God in their prayer life, and the accountability or lack of it that a weakened morality and theology erode.
Thus people are brought into slavery and dependence on others for what should be their own personal relationship with Christ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
yeah agreed - or that "I can fix you" mentality in the same attitude. we all struggle with that stuff i believe, myself included. in reality i can't fix you. i can't even fix myself. i'm broken. i can develop a relationship with my savior and heal. and that healing can make me a new life.
anyway i guess my point is that i have issues just like all of y'all. and that they are ongoing rather than being all healed and not affecting me anymore. but it's better than yesterday. that's reality. true reality isn't the problem, it's the false vision realities living in people's heads.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Classic projecting. You have no real, legitimate way of knowing that to be the case. All you can know is what each says on this forum. Reading anything into those words other than those words can only
come from how you imagine that person with whom you take issue to be.
Bottom line is that you can only know that people disagree with you here. Unless any of them state that they believe they "have more truth than you" or are "he's more spiritual than you" all you really have
(that comes from anyone other than yourself) is that they disagree with you.
Does that make them right and you wrong? Or you right and them wrong? The way I look at it is that we really can't know which is factually true.
Yes, I disagree with you. I also don't care whether you're right or wrong.
When I asked you to define "spiritual knowledge," all I know is that you didn't really answer the question. That doesn't mean I know more than you.
It might mean that I'm more confident in my own understanding of life that I'm willing to even entertain the question myself.
I certainly don't have all of the answers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Worth repeating!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
TLC....check out the link below to a discussion we had towards this 5 years ago.
I have long held the view that wierwille's twi was strategically divisive from its inception.
There was a caste system to this "I have more truth than you" that engendered a basis of class
participation wherein "more knowledge = more spiritual" and thus, more promotions.
In reading this thread, you will see how many debunk this setup and ruse.
Personally, I've never thought that "members in particular in the One Body" is based solely on
learning Greek, Aramaic, Figures of Speech, or twi's purporting of "the rightly-divided word."
Click -- The Corps Program: Divisive
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
The "Rev." label seemed to change people, but not for the better.
(Corps program probably wasn't much different.)
Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
Amazing how that works, eh?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Oh, so...."knowledge puffeth up..." is your end-all cliché of the day?
Nice.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
It revolves around how you define charity. Personally, my definition of charity would not include taking a child who suffers from a learning disability into the woods and beating him with a 2x4. (Yes, that literally happened in The Way. The suggestion, not the follow through, thank goodness.) They have a strange way of defining love.
edit: punctuation
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
TLC
No, not always. But if or when something is (or was) observed repeatedly, it seems fair to make a generalized statement about it. Of course there can be, and undoubted are, exceptions. Same for the Corps training. It didn't automatically ruin everyone that graduated or necessarily make them more puffed up. But puffed up so many became, that a generalization of the effect of the program is not entirely unreasonable, is it? The knife cuts both ways.
And no, I know little to nothing about you, except for some of the snide remarks towards me that you seem to be rather adept on this thread. Were you that way before your title? Do tell.
(edited only slightly, for better clarity)
What, did you change your mind about what you just said? Back to the snide remarks, is it?
Edited by TLCLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Do tell? :biglaugh:/>
Someone who comes on this open forum and hides in the shadows
and makes insinuating remarks?
Do tell? Are you a wierwille-defender? Did some corps guy marry your girlfriend?
What? You were involved around 1973 or so? What are you 66 years old and are
now coming to the realization that wierwille's cult was really messed up?
Do tell? :biglaugh:/>
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.