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Regarding the so-called myth of the six million


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1 hour ago, Allan said:

Well said....and in fact the author does indeed blame their whole town for not taking heed of the warning.

Or perhaps, viewing the same thing a bit differently, Wiesel recognizes something that happened and wonders how and why they could not have recognized the danger and taken action either family by family or collectively.

 

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There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books.  Others have died in the last decade or two. There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction.  There are also

Blaming devil spirits for everything was like the Easy Button in Way World. Got cancer?...devil spirits. Depression?... devil spirits. Substance abuse?...devil spirits.  . And if you don't understand

Are we back to Holocaust denialism? I thought we dispatched with that ahistorical anti-truth nonsense back in the early-aughts. 6 million Jews were exterminated by the Nazi regime during the Holo

11 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Allen was pointing out there were signs indicating Jews should take heed and flee Germany. WW indicated some did heed the warnings and left Germany.

Of course, the Germans were ultimately responsible for what they did to the jews, and the Jews should not ultimately be blamed for Germany’s actions.

But if you can see something bad it is going to happen, it is in your best interest to avoid it.

For example, if you are driving your car, and  see an approaching automobile is exceeding the speed limit, and will blow through the existing stop sign hitting you, it is in your best interest to stop so you will not be hit.

You could conclude you have the right of way, and do nothing, resulting in your car being hit, and passengers being injured or killed. You are well within your lawful rights to let the car hit you because the law is on your side. You would be dead right. 

True, the victim(s) would be in the right to not stop, and allow the offending driver to hit them. But one could argue, had the victims heeded the warning, they would be alive today. Using your logic, it would be improper to even consider the victims could have avoided the accident. 
 

I think you might be comparing apples to oranges – your example with the stop sign assumes I see the approaching speedy car and that I assess it is exceeding the posted speed limit and it does not look like it's slowing down for the stop sign – in that simple scenario I agree with you, it would be foolish on my part to ignore such risk factors from my perspective and judgement.

There’s a lot more to understanding the Holocaust - since it involves many perspectives and how people evaluated things, and how involved others may want to get in keeping something bad from happening (speaking in reference to the international community - which I'll get into below) -  so I don’t think your simple example is appropriate – but your statement “if you can see something bad is going to happen, it is in your best interest to avoid it” got me thinking of the bigger picture – and in general, ask “what were the warning signs and were they ignored?

I found this on -  U.S. Holocaust Museum     - “While warning signs are undoubtedly clearer in hindsight, reflecting on the events of 1938 challenges us to consider what might motivate us to respond to indicators of genocide today. History teaches us that genocide can be prevented if people care enough to act. Our choices in response to hatred truly do matter, and together we can help fulfill the promise of “Never Again.”…this page also gives a timeline of some of the early warning signs like in March of 1938 “German troops enter Austria, which is incorporated into the German Reich…German authorities quickly implement anti-Jewish legislation that encourages an atmosphere of hostility toward the Jewish population.”

 

And on    - PBS – Why Jews didn’t leave Europe   - Leon Botstein is a Swiss- American Jewish conductor and scholar  in an interview discussed “why Jews didn’t leave Europe, particularly Germany, after Hitler came to power in 1933. “The Nazis were not as organized as the American film industry describes them,” he says. “In the breach, segregating the Jewish population was the first order of business.” Indeed, Hitler even ordered that Jewish classical musicians be fired from their groups in the early months of 1933. However, says Botstein, most German Jews didn’t question that they would live and die in Germany. They thought Hitler was temporary or that he was so extreme that there would be a reaction against him. “There was always two Germanys,” Botstein cites, “There was the Germany of high culture…and the Germany of the beer hall and…of blood-and-soil nationalism, which eventually triumphedAnti-Semitism or even radical anti-Semitism wasn’t a surprise to Germans at the time,  even after Kristallnacht (Night of Broken Glass in 1938) and the outbreak of World War II in 1939, according to Botstein.  “People knew things would be terrible, but no one imagined to what extent,” says Botstein.”

 

There might have been many who thought something bad was going to happen – but as Botstein said maybe they couldn’t foresee how bad it would be or thought it might just be something short-term . And there’s another thing to consider about the early warning signs – the lack of response from the international community – in July of 1938 – “Intensified persecution in Germany led more Jews to try to emigrate, which required a nation to allow them to enter. In response to increased refugee demand, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt convened a conference in Evian, France. There, representatives from 32 nations discussed their immigration policies. Delegate after delegate expressed sympathy for the refugees, but most countries, including the United States, refused to alter their immigration policies to admit more of them. Only the Dominican Republic agreed to accept a large number of additional refugees.” (this quote is also from above link to US Holocaust Memorial Museum ).

There's a lot more to this topic - I'm just offering up a couple of examples of why I don't think the simple stop sign/avoiding risk analogy is applicable.

By the way, the time-frame of Wiesel’s book is when the Holocaust was already in high gear  (his original manuscript was completed in 1954). 

Rocky, sorry this wasn’t a discussion of the book – but I thought these few historical details gave some background to Wiesel’s dire situation...I’ve never experienced such hopelessness and utter cruelty – so it’s hard for me to relate to his story – maybe that’s why Moishe had difficulty finding people who would listen to his warnings (even Wiesel says he did not believe him) – until they experienced it for themselves.

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Hindsight is 20/20.    Those of us going through history NOW may possibly make mistakes about how dire a threat is-  which later history may consider transparent.   That has always been true.

For that matter, the Holocaust was such a mind-boggling things that- even with tens of thousands of eyewitnesses, thousands of survivors of many types,  confessions from former Nazis, and both detailed eyewitness accounts of the evidence left behind and filmed footage of same,  there's been plenty of people who've thought it was all a hoax.  In twi, it was called a hoax.  To this day, there's ex-twi and kids of ex-twi who are still convinced it was a hoax.

Yes, it can often seem like only an idiot could fail to understand the warnings of the past-  while we overlook or disregard the warnings of the present.    Hindsight is 20/20.

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40 minutes ago, Allan said:

so this seems to be saying WAY less German Jews were killed than has been taught ? Or am I missing something...

What you are missing is that the Holocaust was not limited to Germany alone. Poland saw a Jewish death toll of over 2 million, as did the Soviet Union. Half a million died in Hungary. A quarter million died in the Baltic States and another quarter million died in Romania. In total, 20 countries fell victim to the Holocaust. And these are just the Jewish deaths. Non-Jews, such as the handicapped, gay men, POW's, Roma, and political opponents died as well. In all, it is thought the total number of deaths may be as high as 11 million.

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On 7/2/2020 at 6:56 PM, T-Bone said:

There's a lot more to this topic - I'm just offering up a couple of examples of why I don't think the simple stop sign/avoiding risk analogy is applicable.

By the way, the time-frame of Wiesel’s book is when the Holocaust was already in high gear  (his original manuscript was completed in 1954). 

Rocky, sorry this wasn’t a discussion of the book – but I thought these few historical details gave some background to Wiesel’s dire situation...I’ve never experienced such hopelessness and utter cruelty – so it’s hard for me to relate to his story – maybe that’s why Moishe had difficulty finding people who would listen to his warnings (even Wiesel says he did not believe him) – until they experienced it for themselves.

No worries, T-Bone. I just want us to keep this thread away from political controversy... especially over current events in the US.

Historical perspective about the Holocaust is very much related to the book.

 

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3 hours ago, Allan said:

so this seems to be saying WAY less German Jews were killed than has been taught ? Or am I missing something...

That many Jews heeded warning and left Germany rather than be exterminated is in NO way connected to the number who were killed. So, yes, you're missing a lot besides what Waysider cited. Your inference is totally lacking any grounding in logic. 

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Are we back to Holocaust denialism? I thought we dispatched with that ahistorical anti-truth nonsense back in the early-aughts.

6 million Jews were exterminated by the Nazi regime during the Holocaust. This is a matter of fact not subject to debate.

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6 hours ago, Raf said:

Are we back to Holocaust denialism? I thought we dispatched with that ahistorical anti-truth nonsense back in the early-aughts.

6 million Jews were exterminated by the Nazi regime during the Holocaust. This is a matter of fact not subject to debate.

In January 1933, some 522,000 Jews by religious definition lived in Germany. Over half of these individuals, approximately 304,000 Jews, emigrated during the first six years of the Nazi dictatorship, leaving only approximately 214,000 Jews in Germany proper (1937 borders) on the eve of World War II.     Copied and pasted from the American/ Jewish holocaust museums 'Holocaust Encyclopaedia'....
my question was "where and how did the total add up to 6 million Jews wiped out IF there were only 214,000 living in Germany when Hitler decided to gas them all"  ??!! 
If you Raf and Rocky don't know, don't ridicule the question, simply answer it or say you don't know ?!

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On 7/4/2020 at 8:59 PM, Allan said:

so this seems to be saying WAY less German Jews were killed than has been taught ? Or am I missing something...

I answered your question yesterday, Allan.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 9:51 PM, waysider said:

What you are missing is that the Holocaust was not limited to Germany alone. Poland saw a Jewish death toll of over 2 million, as did the Soviet Union. Half a million died in Hungary. A quarter million died in the Baltic States and another quarter million died in Romania. In total, 20 countries fell victim to the Holocaust. And these are just the Jewish deaths. Non-Jews, such as the handicapped, gay men, POW's, Roma, and political opponents died as well. In all, it is thought the total number of deaths may be as high as 11 million.

Also, they weren't all gassed to death. Some died of starvation, some died of unattended medical problems, some were shot and on and on. As the saying goes, "You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.".

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According to Wikipedia the genocide was carried out not just in Nazi Germany but also across German-occupied Europe and using more than just gas chambers:

"The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews. Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population.The murders were carried out in pogroms and mass shootings; by a policy of extermination through work in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps, chiefly Auschwitz, Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka in occupied Poland."   from Wikipedia - the Holocaust 

 

see also Wikipedia - German-occupied Europe

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1 hour ago, Allan said:

In January 1933, some 522,000 Jews by religious definition lived in Germany. Over half of these individuals, approximately 304,000 Jews, emigrated during the first six years of the Nazi dictatorship, leaving only approximately 214,000 Jews in Germany proper (1937 borders) on the eve of World War II.     Copied and pasted from the American/ Jewish holocaust museums 'Holocaust Encyclopaedia'....
my question was "where and how did the total add up to 6 million Jews wiped out IF there were only 214,000 living in Germany when Hitler decided to gas them all"  ??!! 
If you Raf and Rocky don't know, don't ridicule the question, simply answer it or say you don't know ?!

Unrelated to the topic of this thread. Just stop.

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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

According to Wikipedia the genocide was carried out not just in Nazi Germany but also across German-occupied Europe and using more than just gas chambers:

"The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews. Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population.The murders were carried out in pogroms and mass shootings; by a policy of extermination through work in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps, chiefly Auschwitz, Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka in occupied Poland."   from Wikipedia - the Holocaust 

 

see also Wikipedia - German-occupied Europe

Wikipedia cites its sources. Allan, WTF is your motivation on this thread?

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This wikipedia article (on the Holocaust) has 461 footnotes/citations. From roughly 100 different researchers/scholars.



 

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9 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Wikipedia cites its sources. Allan, WTF is your motivation on this thread?

Motivation can easily be determined by content and participation.

His initial posts were to claim there HAD TO be something "spiritual" about the millions of Jews and millions of others that the Nazis massacred, imprisoned. etc. etc.

His later posts were to support the claims of "the Myth of the Six Million",  despite that book already having been discredited and evidence showing it was loaded with error.  And despite our already having discussed this book long ago and shown how some of its errors worked and were truly errors.

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Just now, WordWolf said:

Motivation can easily be determined by content and participation.

His initial posts were to claim there HAD TO be something "spiritual" about the millions of Jews and millions of others that the Nazis massacred, imprisoned. etc. etc.

His later posts were to support the claims of "the Myth of the Six Million",  despite that book already having been discredited and evidence showing it was loaded with error.  And despite our already having discussed this book long ago and shown how some of its errors worked and were truly errors.

Yeah, I know that, WW. I suppose I should have realized it was a stupid question for me to ask.

 

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4 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Yeah, I know that, WW. I suppose I should have realized it was a stupid question for me to ask.

 

Some questions HAVE to be asked out loud.  There was no point pretending this wasn't a legit question.

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19 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Yeah, I know that, WW. I suppose I should have realized it was a stupid question for me to ask.

 

Some questions HAVE to be asked out loud.  There was no point pretending this wasn't a legit question.

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Correct WordWolf, simply and innocently asking a question. I have no agenda, motive or inclination for asking the question except when speaking to people about the incident (IF it ever gets brought up and more than likely not by me) ! I am rather surprised by Rockys (WTF) response though, he's normally a rather measured and conservative poster ?! Perhaps it IS spiritual after all lol. BTW, my question also was 'on topic' as far as I can see as it was in regard to the book that was promoted, so again Rocky and Raf ought to thoughtfully consider a response before going off half cocked.

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This has been talked to death more than once.   More than once, we've had discussions about large bodies of evidence and so on showing how the Holocaust happened.  We've also had a handful of people-  always very pro-vpw people, every time-   come forward, ignore any posted information from any scholarly source, and insist vpw was right and the Holocaust either didn't happen or was wildly exaggerated.   

Holocaust.

  https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/15320-holocaust/

Myth of the Six Million:

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/9836-myth-of-the-six-million/

Was vpw a holocaust denier?

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24802-was-vpw-a-holocaust-denier/?tab=comments#comment-596647

vpw's connection to Nazi party?

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/6636-vpw-connection-to-nazi-party/

What gives Holocaust denial such appeal?

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/6799-what-gives-holocaust-denial-such-an-appeal/

 

I would recommend a new thread be started for this new discussion. However, this is NOT a "new" discussion   The SAME tired old horse-manure is being peddled AGAIN, and was thoroughly disproved and discredited already.   There's no point in another discussion.  There's a point in reviewing pages and pages of when this happened before.  I see no point in retyping the same information all over again into a new thread.

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33 minutes ago, Allan said:

Correct WordWolf, simply and innocently asking a question. I have no agenda, motive or inclination for asking the question except when speaking to people about the incident (IF it ever gets brought up and more than likely not by me) ! I am rather surprised by Rockys (WTF) response though, he's normally a rather measured and conservative poster ?! Perhaps it IS spiritual after all lol. BTW, my question also was 'on topic' as far as I can see as it was in regard to the book that was promoted, so again Rocky and Raf ought to thoughtfully consider a response before going off half cocked.

I suspect that wasn't the question WW was referring to.

You obviously have an agenda, which is not to reflect on the historical record Elie Wiesel set forth of his experience.

Conservative? We don't do politics here, no matter how hard you try to wedge it into a thread.

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Rocky: "Wikipedia cites its sources. Allan, WTF is your motivation on this thread?"

WordWolf: "Motivation can easily be determined by content and participation.His initial posts were to claim there HAD TO be something "spiritual" about the millions of Jews and millions of others that the Nazis massacred, imprisoned. etc. etc.His later posts were to support the claims of "the Myth of the Six Million",  despite that book already having been discredited and evidence showing it was loaded with error.  And despite our already having discussed this book long ago and shown how some of its errors worked and were truly errors."

Rocky: "Yeah, I know that, WW. I suppose I should have realized it was a stupid question for me to ask."

WordWolf: "Some questions HAVE to be asked out loud.  There was no point pretending this wasn't a legit question."

Rocky's question was legit.

Allan: "...WW did point out you were wrong to accuse me of having an agenda..." 

No, Allan, you're misunderstanding what was going on and what was said.   In the current context, that (that inability) undermines your already-shaky position.

==============================================

Out of curiosity, what did you think of Elie Wiesel's book, and how far did you get in it?

(That IS the subject of this thread, Elie Wiesel's book. per the opening post.

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13 hours ago, Allan said:

In January 1933, some 522,000 Jews by religious definition lived in Germany. Over half of these individuals, approximately 304,000 Jews, emigrated during the first six years of the Nazi dictatorship, leaving only approximately 214,000 Jews in Germany proper (1937 borders) on the eve of World War II.     Copied and pasted from the American/ Jewish holocaust museums 'Holocaust Encyclopaedia'....
my question was "where and how did the total add up to 6 million Jews wiped out IF there were only 214,000 living in Germany when Hitler decided to gas them all"  ??!! 
If you Raf and Rocky don't know, don't ridicule the question, simply answer it or say you don't know ?!

Because Hitler only killed Jews IN Germany.

Sorry, Prof. You don't get to hand out homework assignments, and your refusal to look up readily available answers to your question does not validate your holocaust denialism.

There will be zero tolerance for Holocaust denialism at GSC.

 

Zero.

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 I respectfully disagree with Raf's assertion that there should be zero tolerance for Holocaust denialism at GSC. I think this is an excellent place because it provides a platform to show the contrast of ideas with an understanding of the origins of many of those ideas. It's often not possible to understand a person's view of historical events as many are skewed by confirmation biases. In this instance,  we are aware of those origins and are able to compare and contrast the differences based upon facts.

The Holocaust Museum in Washington is not somewhere I had ever "wanted" to go, but felt I must go. Staring reality in the face is not a pleasant experience and is a very humbling insight into the depths of depravity that human nature can descend.  One million, six million, eleven million are nebulous numbers because the scale is unimaginable but it does not negate the 70 - 85 million who died as a result of the war, about 3% of the entire world population. Yes, there is real documentation and real numbers, but unless there is an acknowledgement of those resources, there will always be unsubstantiated disagreements.

Discourse is a good thing and maybe others will learn and decide for themselves based upon facts.

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